Tsukiko and a Curbstomp

[Phoenix Xul]

I was just looking over some old strips today, and a thought occurred to me. How is Tsukiko ever going to be relevant in a fight when the Order confronts Team Evil? Haley was proficiently holding her off single-handedly, and when your spellcaster is losing to a rogue in a straight fight, you have a problem. When the whole Order gets involved, do you suppose she's going to be anything more than a load for Xykon and Redcloak?

[Gandariel]

With her undeads?? Even though Belkar has already proven himself able to kill the wights, and durkon would start turning them...
anyway Tsukiko could easily beat Elan and seems to be about the same level as Haley... she could keep occupied half of the party for quite a while

[slayerx]

Um... last i checked, Haley was the one running away and in desperate need of rescue; and that was after augmenting herself with a few potions. Hell she's the first spellcaster we've seen that was able to find a loophole around a rouge's evasion. And when it comes down to it, Tsukiko will be supported by not just her wights but Xykon and Redcloak themselves

[Leecros]

Um... last i checked, Haley was the one running away and in desperate need of rescue; and that was after augmenting herself with a few potions. Hell she's the first spellcaster we've seen that was able to find a loophole around a rouge's evasion. And when it comes down to it, Tsukiko will be supported by not just her wights but Xykon and Redcloak themselves

This.



Part of being on a team...even on Team Evil. Is that when combat starts you gotta act like a team. Tsuki could do plenty with the support of others .

has to be said unfortunately for my argument "There is no I in team"


Even at the simplest level of soaking up attacks so the more powerful people don't have to take them can be a huge help. yes, i know she's not a tank, but even if she gets killed by V's first spell...that's one less spell that they have to attack Xykon with...

[Crisis21]

If it was Tsukiko by herself, then yes the Order would curbstomp her. However, I highly doubt it is going to be a straight Order vs Tsukiko match when they face off.

[NerfTW]

I was just looking over some old strips today,... Haley was proficiently holding her off single-handedly,

You might want to check over those strips again. :smallconfused:

[137beth]

Hell she's the first spellcaster we've seen that was able to find a loophole around a rouge's evasion.
Not quite: The bandit sorcerer was able to beat Haley, Elan, AND Varsuvius by herself. Still Tsukiko wouldn't be able to do anything to the ENTIRE PARTY...
BUT if she was fighting with Redcloak and her undead, she would pose a legitimate threat.

[Knaight]

She seems slightly more powerful than any of Nale, Sabine, or Thog, and those three have been causing massive problems with at least three people, so she should be able to contribute if things come to a head. That said, a one on six against the order probably wouldn't end well.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not quite: The bandit sorcerer was able to beat Haley, Elan, AND Varsuvius by herself.
But she wasn’t actually working around Haley’s evasion. Samantha just smashed through it wigh a too-high save DC. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html) If Haley had made a nat 20, Same wouldn’t have hurt her at all. Fighting Tsukiko, however, Haley never would have had a chance to Evade. And that was slayerx’s point.


And when it comes down to it, Tsukiko will be supported by not just her wights but Xykon and Redcloak themselves
Nah, she’ll only have Redcloak’s support if Xykon makes him do it. To Redcloak, she’ll be little more than a meat shield.


When the whole Order gets involved, do you suppose she's going to be anything more than a load for Xykon and Redcloak?
No. A load is something that actually hinders. Even if Tsukiko couldn’t help, she’s not at all a hindrance. As mentioned, she’s at least a good meat shield.

[Dr.Epic]

Um... last i checked, Haley was the one running away and in desperate need of rescue; and that was after augmenting herself with a few potions. Hell she's the first spellcaster we've seen that was able to find a loophole around a rouge's evasion. And when it comes down to it, Tsukiko will be supported by not just her wights but Xykon and Redcloak themselves

Yeah. Not to mention Haley's one advantage against Tsukiko is spells with reflex saves. Not a huge thing. Haley's evasion pretty much means she takes no damage. Four members of the order lack this class feature and thus would be hurting.

[Marnath]

Our favorite necromancer is actually pretty dangerous. Even if her best efforts only lead to her being a 1 or 2 round distraction, i think you're severly underestimating how much damage her other teammates can do in that 1 round. With Redcloak and Xykon pressing from the other side, there's a good chance they'll be too busy defending to take the time to brush her away.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Oh, heck. Don’t forget, she managed to make quite the difference in the showdown with Darth V. She is a very valuable asset to Xykon and Redcloak.

[Doxkid]

Goblin-Wight zerg rush. Teleport some in, teleport self out, teleport more in, teleport self out. She has shown that she will do this and the stategy does work.

I joined to say that.

[Bongos]

This.



Part of being on a team...even on Team Evil. Is that when combat starts you gotta act like a team. Tsuki could do plenty with the support of others .


TEAM EVIL ASSEMBLE!

[slayerx]

Nah, she’ll only have Redcloak’s support if Xykon makes him do it. To Redcloak, she’ll be little more than a meat shield.

I don't know... Redcloak knows how to look at the bigger picture. As such he would just LET her die in the middle of a battle for the gate; There's too much at stake at that point for him to waste a powerful combat resource just because he's petty...sure he's not gonna sacrifice anything for her, but he will throw down a necessary heal and blast the same people she's blasting...

Now on the otherhand, if she were to run out of spells in the middle of a fight or if the success was nearly certain... ya, then she looses all that usefulness

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Tsukiko is AWESOME!
I don't know where you got these bizarre ideas of Tsukiko not contributing in a fight against the order, she can overwhelm them with an army of level-draining wights and blast down their hit-points with non-core evocations. She also greatly contibute to healing Xykon with nagative-energy spells, buff the undead, and easily cripple (or at least damage) an OotS member with the harm spell.

[Poppy Appletree]

has to be said unfortunately for my argument "There is no I in team"

But there is an I in Team Evil. :smallwink:


Our favorite necromancer is actually pretty dangerous.

Favourite necromancer? I think you mean favourite mystic theurge.



Now on the otherhand, if she were to run out of spells in the middle of a fight or if the success was nearly certain... ya, then she looses all that usefulness

Unlikely, as Tsukiko said to Redcloak, she goes to bed with more spells prepared than he starts the day with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

---

You know, I'm entirely puzzled that nobody has mentioned Tsukiko's massive buff potential: Sure, she can create undead, and she can blast the Order, but she can also buff her entire team a hell of a lot before the fight even begins - not to mention the fact that she can do all of this and have spells left over. In the fight against Darth V, nboody was prepared, but when it comes to a gate showdown, you can bet that Tsukiko will have been improving the odds for Team Evil beforehand.

[Gandariel]

when it comes to a gate showdown, you can bet that Tsukiko will have been improving the odds for Team Evil beforehand.

.... odds?
Actually, right now, Xykon can easily destroy the whole order on his own without problems..

[Leecros]

But there is an I in Team Evil. :smallwink:


Curses! Foiled Again!

[Undead Prince]

The only reason Tsu had any sort of trouble with Haley is because in this comic, spellcasters are using maybe 10% of their real potential. If Tsukiko were used properly, she'd curb stomp the entire OoTS no prob, especially with access to non-core material.

[Cizak]

Haley loaded herself with potions and arrows more powerful than she usually uses, and she ended up being the one having to run away. I think Tsukiko will be fine.

[Goosefarble]

I'm half-expecting Xykon to kill Tsukiko himself.

[137beth]

But there is an I in Team Evil. :smallwink:

Lol:smallsmile:




Favourite necromancer? I think you mean favourite mystic theurge.




Well technically she gains spellcasting features from both wizard and cleric because of her mystic theurge levels, and she seems pretty clearly a necromancer (note that I am assuming she is a Wizard/Cleric, but that seems likely given that she can use harm spells (so cleric), and she goes to bed with more spells prepared than redcloak starts the day with (so she couldn't get more prepared spells than redcloak if she was a sorcerer/cleric).

[Kish]

You're also assuming she's a specialist in any school, as a wizard.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm half-expecting Xykon to kill Tsukiko himself.

Why? She unquestionably does everything he tells her and Tsukiko has a bit of a crush on her. As stupid and violent as Xykon is, he wouldn't kill such a loyal and powerful ally until he saw his plan was fully completed. Red Cloak on the other hand, well, after Xykon's phylactery went missing, it's hard to say if Xykon will keep him around.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Why? She unquestionably does everything he tells her and Tsukiko has a bit of a crush on her. As stupid and violent as Xykon is, he wouldn't kill such a loyal and powerful ally until he saw his plan was fully completed. Red Cloak on the other hand, well, after Xykon's phylactery went missing, it's hard to say if Xykon will keep him around.
Right. Tsukiko’s a strong asset, and she’s very unlikely to start racking up Liability Points like Redcloak has been doing. And if that half-ritual Tsukiko is translating is the half-ritual we all think it is, it looks like Redcloak is on his way to loosing the only thing that gives him any Asset Points. All LP and no AP makes for dead goblins. :smallfrown:

[Undead Prince]

You're also assuming she's a specialist in any school, as a wizard.

1) Tsukiko the Necrophiliac is very obviously the type to choose Necromancy as her school specialisation.

2) Whatever her classes and specialisations, she is very obviously a necromancer by practice.

So, calling her a necromancer is highly appropriate. That's what she is, primarily.

[Undead Prince]

Right. Tsukiko’s a strong asset, and she’s very unlikely to start racking up Liability Points like Redcloak has been doing. And if that half-ritual Tsukiko is translating is the half-ritual we all think it is, it looks like Redcloak is on his way to loosing the only thing that gives him any Asset Points. All LP and no AP makes for dead goblins. :smallfrown:

That is a very good point. Ever since Start of Darkness Redcloak was being methodically set up for a heel-face turn. Sooner or later, that time-bomb's gonna blow - probably at a critical moment involving the Gates. When it happens, I can totally see Tsukiko taking Red's place as Xykon's first lieutenant.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Why? She unquestionably does everything he tells her and Tsukiko has a bit of a crush on her. As stupid and violent as Xykon is, he wouldn't kill such a loyal and powerful ally until he saw his plan was fully completed. Red Cloak on the other hand, well, after Xykon's phylactery went missing, it's hard to say if Xykon will keep him around.

How can Xykon have a crush on her?
Hes a SKELETON, he doesn't have HORMONES.

[Vemynal]

Now on the otherhand, if she were to run out of spells in the middle of a fight or if the success was nearly certain... ya, then she looses all that usefulness

a mystic theurge run out of spells before a cleric or a sorcerer? not likely xD

[Marnath]

You're also assuming she's a specialist in any school, as a wizard.

No, i'm not. Necromancer is a vocation, just like Miko and samurai. You don't have to be a necromancy specialized wizard to be a necromancer, you just have to know necromancy spells and you don't have to have arcane casting at all for that, cleric can do that decently too with the right domains.

[Darthteej]

I think that main problem Tsukio has is avoiding damage, the majority of her class levels are d4s, so one good disintegrate could do major damage, especially since she likely hasn't a fort save to speak of.

[Kish]

No, i'm not.
I was addressing 137ben, in the post my post was directly below, sorry about the ambiguity.

[Bongos]

But there is an I in Team Evil. :smallwink:

A demotivational poster in the making right there if ever I saw one.

[Marnath]

I was addressing 137ben, in the post my post was directly below, sorry about the ambiguity.


Oh, ok. Cool. :smallcool: He does have a point though, she probably is a wiz/cleric, and there's no reason to think she wouldn't actually be a specialized necromancer either. I was just nitpicking. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Oh, ok. Cool. :smallcool: He does have a point though, she probably is a wiz/cleric, and there's no reason to think she wouldn't actually be a specialized necromancer either.
Actually...

The main thing she would gain from being a specialist rather than generalist wizard--more spells per day--is largely redundant to a Mystic Theurge, whereas the main thing she'd lose--access to all types of magic--is something that being a Mystic Theurge might suggest she values. So, there's a reason to think she wouldn't be a specialist. Of course, there's also a reason (her obsession with undead) to think she would be a specialist necromancer. We shouldn't assume either without evidence.

[Undead Prince]

I think that main problem Tsukio has is avoiding damage, the majority of her class levels are d4s, so one good disintegrate could do major damage, especially since she likely hasn't a fort save to speak of.

She's a mystic theurge with access to non-core material...

She's got 10 times more protective spells than you can think about...

With a single feat she can make these spells permanent and non-dispellable via magic items...

Disintegrate also requires a ranged touch attack to succeed and is ridiculously easy to defend against...

To say nothing of the fact that a smart necromancer wouln't even be there to be disintegrated... instead, for instance, being magic jarred into one of her undead...

Oh, and... personal hitpoints are about as irrelevant to a wizard/cleric multiclass as can be... which is why it's safe to dump CON (only after STR, of course) at chargen...

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, we've seen her cast arcane magic from every school except Transmutation (though we've seen her under a flight effect, and I doubt she has the Travel domain) and Divination (which you cannot ban, ignoring Roy's comment in Origins). Heck, she could be a diviner with necromancy barred for all we know. (Her Create Undead spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) looks closer to arcane, but it's still lighter than usual and it could be divine being mixed with the background.)

[Kish]

ignoring Roy's comment in Origins).
Ignoring it not necessary. OtOoPCs was a prequel, under 3.0ed rules, and in 3.0ed you could ban Divination.

[derfenrirwolv]

For touch spells

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm

is MUCH much more of a buff than it is for most clerics. With +14 to hit she'd probably need a 5 to hit haley's touch ac.

[Undead Prince]

Actually...

The main thing she would gain from being a specialist rather than generalist wizard--more spells per day--is largely redundant to a Mystic Theurge, whereas the main thing she'd lose--access to all types of magic--is something that being a Mystic Theurge might suggest she values. So, there's a reason to think she wouldn't be a specialist. Of course, there's also a reason (her obsession with undead) to think she would be a specialist necromancer. We shouldn't assume either without evidence.

Being partial to undead myself, I always assumed Tsukiko went Mystic Theurge because she wanted to maximise her Necromancy (though not really the smartest way to go about it, it's probably the most straightforward).


Also, we've seen her cast arcane magic from every school except Transmutation (though we've seen her under a flight effect, and I doubt she has the Travel domain) and Divination (which you cannot ban, ignoring Roy's comment in Origins).

Fly is Transmutation.

She also didn't use any Abjurations on screen, but it would be really stupid for a wizard to ban Abjuration, so let's assume she just buffed behind the scenes.

She may easily have the Travel domain for both Fly and Teleport which she used. She could also have the Domination domain for Dominate Person, or Trickery for Invisibility.

But a better way to go about it would be to take Death domain, as it would maximise her clerical necromancy (in particular, one more 3rd level Animate Dead), take the Domination or Trickery domain for Dominate Person or Invisibility respectively, and use the feat Arcane Disciple to add the entire Travel domain to her Arcane spell list. This way she could ban Conjuration and either Enchanment or Illusion, cast all the spells we've seen her cast, maximise her clerical Necromancy and still have one more arcane (Necromancy) spell per level than if she'd been a Generalist.

She seems to be munchkin and necrophiliac enough to do this.

It would, however, reduce her flexibility. By remaining Generalist and losing 1 arcane necromantic spell per level, she'd conserve a feat and be able to cast spells like Invisibility, Fly, Dominate Person and Teleport more than once per day, as well as have access to a wider variety of arcane spells and one more clerical domain.

Overall, if Tsu insists on keeping access to Evocation and Enchantment (two prime candidates for prohibition), I'd say it's probably best to just go all the way and be a Generalist.


Heck, she could be a diviner with necromancy barred for all we know. (Her Create Undead spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) looks closer to arcane, but it's still lighter than usual and it could be divine being mixed with the background.)

Let's not go all crazy here. Tsukiko, banning Necromancy? That is just way out there. Besides, arcane Necromancy has too many good spells to pass up, starting right with Spectral Hand, Shivering Touch and Command Undead. The only decent way to go about it would be to take Divine Magician and put the good arcane Necromancy into her domain slots... but that just starts the vicious cycle all over again, all for the benefit of one extra Divination per level, and Divinations are so highly situational that this can't be considered a big deal.

[Undead Prince]

For touch spells

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm

is MUCH much more of a buff than it is for most clerics. With +14 to hit she'd probably need a 5 to hit haley's touch ac.


Too bad Tsu didn't use it, or any other spells useful against a rogue (Evard's Black Tentacles? The Bigbys? etc; etc). Smart enough to load no-saves vs. Improved Evasion, but not smart enough to ensure she'd be able to hit an agile rogue with ranged touch attacks. Weird, aren't Mystic Theurges supposed to have high Intelligence AND high Wisdom, to speak nothing of Spellcraft?

{remembering Vaarsuvius} What am I saying...

[Gift Jeraff]

Fly is Transmutation.Yes, but as you said, we have never seen her actually cast it, only under the effect of it. (For some reason I thought we did see her cast abjuration spells. Huh.) EDIT: I was remember incorrectly from this post where I said we've never seen her cast arcane necromancy/divination/abjuration/transmutation, but she most definitely has transmutation because she was under a Fly effect. :smallredface:



Let's not go all crazy here. Tsukiko, banning Necromancy? That is just way out there.
That was kind of my point. We don't know enough and anything is possible. Though now that I think about the "Unnatural Acts of Wizardry" she was arrested for kinda throws banned necromancy out the window.



I always assumed Tsukiko went Mystic Theurge because she wanted to maximise her Necromancy (though not really the smartest way to go about it, it's probably the most straightforward).
I thought that as well.

Wild Baseless Speculation Time: What if her backstory behind multiclassing is that she started off as a generalist wizard, then a life-changing event caused her to hate all living things, thus making her go cleric/MT to compensate for lack of necromantic specialization plus Bolster Undead plus spontaneous Inflict spells, etc. etc.?

[Acero]

The thing is with teamwork though is, RC HATES her. Bad teamwork is worse than fighting without her.


Then again, all Xykon has to do is use Wail of the Banshee and it's over.

[137beth]

The thing is with teamwork though is, RC HATES her. Bad teamwork is worse than fighting without her.


Then again, all Xykon has to do is use Wail of the Banshee and it's over.

Redcloak may hate her, but he is not an idiot. In fact, redcloak is likely the most intelligent mortal evil characters in the whole series. He will use her to his advantage in a fight.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Redcloak may hate her, but he is not an idiot. In fact, redcloak is likely the most intelligent mortal evil characters in the whole series.
And yet he still succumbs to a common logical fallacy like Sunk Costs.

Even the most intelligent being in the universe will have blind spots and be influenced by their emotions. The more Tsukiko antagonizes Redcloak, the more illogically he will be prone to act towards her.

[Setra]

a mystic theurge run out of spells before a cleric or a sorcerer? not likely xD
An Epic Sorcerer, though.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

An Epic Sorcerer, though.
Epic sorcerers do not gain more spells per day without spending feats. Many of these feats are actually more useful than more spells. Yeah, she has more fuel than Xykon. It’s just lower quality.

[Setra]

Epic sorcerers do not gain more spells per day without spending feats. Many of these feats are actually more useful than more spells. Yeah, she has more fuel than Xykon. It’s just lower quality.
Oh, I thought he gained like level 9 and 10 spell slots and so on as he went epic.

[Undead Prince]

The thing is with teamwork though is, RC HATES her. Bad teamwork is worse than fighting without her.

The fact that Red hates her probably only adds Tsu bonus points in Xykon's view. Competition between lackeys is good for business, and Red has been on Xykon's bad side for some time now.

And they've already shown that they have good teamwork despite bad attitude towards each other (fight with spliced V).

[Undead Prince]

Epic sorcerers do not gain more spells per day without spending feats. Many of these feats are actually more useful than more spells. Yeah, she has more fuel than Xykon. It’s just lower quality.

There is a single feat - Epic Spellcasting Improved Spell Capacity - that gives a lot of slots above level 9, because it allows the casting stat (Charisma for sorcerers) to be used to calculate available spell slots higher than level 9.

With proper stat boosting this can give a TON of high-level slots for just a single feat.

And of course, using feats to buy spell slots one by one is a waste of feats.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There is a single feat - Epic Spellcasting - that gives a lot of slots above level 9, because it allows the casting stat (Charisma for sorcerers) to be used to calculate available spell slots higher than level 9.
Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting) does no such thing. It allows the use of Epic Spells, which do not use slots. And you only get one per day per 10 ranks in you have in a particular Knowledge Skill. Xykon would have to be level 27 to even have 3 Epic Spells per day.

The feat that does increase epic character’s slots is Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity), which only gives you one slot for each time you take the feat. Though bonus slots due to high charisma do apply, they won’t add up to much. For instance, a 38 in spellcasting ability score is required to have just two bonus 10th level spell slots.

I wish to stress again that Improved Spell Capacity only grants you one slot each time it is taken. That 25th-level spell column in the chart in the feat description? Yeah, a wizard would need to take Improved Spell Capacity at least 16 times to even find that column useful.

[Undead Prince]

Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting) does no such thing. It allows the use of Epic Spells, which do not use slots.

Thanks, I needed that dose of me=moron in the morning.


The feat that does increase epic character’s slots is Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity), which only gives you one slot for each time you take the feat. Though bonus slots due to high charisma do apply, they won’t add up to much. For instance, a 38 in spellcasting ability score is required to have just two bonus 10th level spell slots.

It still usually gives more spell slots than the feat itself.

And lets not talk about boosting stats...

But yes, right ye are.

[Undead Prince]

Yes, but as you said, we have never seen her actually cast it, only under the effect of it.

The only other member of Team Evil capable of casting Fly is Xykon, and he probably wouldn't do it for a lackey (he never did it for Redcloak). OFC, it could have been a potion but where would she get the potion? And anyway, Fly - as well as other Transmutations - are just too useful for a Wizard to pass up. Yah, I'd say we should assume it's her own spell.


Though now that I think about the "Unnatural Acts of Wizardry" she was arrested for kinda throws banned necromancy out the window.

Ooh, good catch! That definitely points towards her having arcane Necromancy (unless Azure city justice is unable to distinguish between arcane and divine spellcasting, which I find too lame to assume).


Wild Baseless Speculation Time: What if her backstory behind multiclassing is that she started off as a generalist wizard, then a life-changing event caused her to hate all living things, thus making her go cleric/MT to compensate for lack of necromantic specialization plus Bolster Undead plus spontaneous Inflict spells, etc. etc.?

May be! I only wish she wasn't so rash, since MT just sucks so much compared to all the other options. I mean, even True Necromancer would have been better...

[derfenrirwolv]

Tsikio is, i believe, the only character to far to take advantage of the strategic "stupid caster tricks 101" so familiar to most on the boards... namely casting spells from the air and using invisibility to attack (not that invisibility makes haley that much easier to hit thanks to her uncanny dodge)

Her wild diversity of spells can synergize with each other, such as using divine might to cast wizard touch attack spells. A mystic theurge is more than the sum of their parts, the parts DO work well together. Even staying invisible and casting harm spells on xykon and heals on redcloak could be a signifigant factor.

As unoptimized from a battle royal point of view as Mystic theurges are, they're still miles ahead of rouges, fighters, and rangers (even if they ARE core optimized....which belkar is not) The only member of the order she probably couldn't take out 1 on 1 is V, and even thats close.

[Ancalagon]

I find it funny how people still make the mistake of assume Magic was somehow superiour. It's a big point of this comic it does not work this way.

Where is Vaarsuvius more optimised than say Roy? That flashy magic was a bit too blinding?

IF you want to argue against one of the recurring plot-elements, you have to proof it instead of just stating "A, B, C are totally unoptimised and powerless vs. Caster" while "X would case lots of trouble to Caster". It all also depends on circumstances etc, which is no surprise as D&D can become very tactical.

[Undead Prince]

Tsikio is, i believe, the only character to far to take advantage of the strategic "stupid caster tricks 101

Too bad she forgot to take "stupid caster 201"... but still you're right, she's right next to Xykon in spellcasting efficiency. X is so far the most resourceful spellcaster - the simple fact that he uses Craft Wondrous Item, Animate Dead and probably Leadership already puts him above all other spellcasting characters in the comic, and he's not too stupid about his everyday spell use too.


Her wild diversity of spells can synergize with each other, such as using divine might to cast wizard touch attack spells.

Too bad she doesn't do it.


As unoptimized from a battle royal point of view as Mystic theurges are, they're still miles ahead of rouges, fighters, and rangers (even if they ARE core optimized....which belkar is not) The only member of the order she probably couldn't take out 1 on 1 is V, and even thats close.

Considering how stupid V is, I'd say Tsu can take him out easily if she's played right. And she has the potential to be "played right" since she can think out of the box and use tactics that are at least above kindergarden level.

If both are played right... well, it'd be a close call, their builds appear to be about equally unoptimized.

Generally though, a straight Wizard with proper multiclassing is the strongest character in my book.

[BladeofOblivion]

Isn't a "Straight Wizard with Multiclassing" a contradiction?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

OFC, it could have been a potion but where would she get the potion?
Same place Haley got her potions?


I find it funny how people still make the mistake of assume Magic was somehow superiour. It's a big point of this comic it does not work this way.
It certainly has worked that way when spellcasters have, y’know, actually used their magic that way. The problem isn’t that magic doesn’t work that way, but that spellcasters don’t use their magic that way.

See Xykon’s and Redcloak’s effective use of summoning and sniping tactics during the Battle of Azure City for examples of where spellcasters have used their magic that way.


Where is Vaarsuvius more optimised than say Roy? That flashy magic was a bit too blinding?
It has been pointed out that Vaarsuvius is a very unoptomized wizard, right? And, yes, it does have to do with all that flashy magic. Evocation is generally recognized as what is probably the weakest school of magic.

[Ancalagon]

See Xykon’s and Redcloak’s effective use of summoning and sniping tactics during the Battle of Azure City for examples of where spellcasters have used their magic that way.

So, you say some epic rogue and a nearly-epic monk could not have devised some awesome tactics based on the abilities they have?

While magic in D&D is very powerful it is a game designed for all classes to get something in later levels. Redcloak and Xykon do awesome, smart stuff with their abilities but that does not have to say the abilities are the most and far superiour things in the world.
They USE the power they have in a smart way, something neither Dorukan nor Vaarsuvius were doing. But that does not mean magic is inherntly more or less powerful than anything else.

Also, the theory was that Tsukiko can win vs. everyone. Sure she could win vs. Haley but imagine they were not in "mostly open space" but a place where Haley could get more out of sneaking near and using her class abilities.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So, you say some epic rogue and a nearly-epic monk could not have devised some awesome tactics based on the abilities they have?
‘Cause greater invisibility is an epic spell. :smallannoyed:


While magic in D&D is very powerful it is a game designed for all classes to get something in later levels.
You might want to ask the folks on the gaming forum how well that actually works in practice.

[Undead Prince]

I find it funny how people still make the mistake of assume Magic was somehow superiour.

You know, you're absolutely right.

Some people do make the mistake of assuming that in DnD 3.5 magic is somehow superiour.

This mistake usually costs them a lot when they realise that magic is absolutely dominating. That it represents an exponential, geometric growth of power which positively dwarfs everything else. That's when the claims about unbalanced classes and spells usually start.

But to reach that level, a gamer normally has to have some experience of the game vis-a-vis people who can play the system.


It's a big point of this comic it does not work this way

Funny, I thought it was a big point of the comic that magic does represent the greatest power and danger there is. The Big Bad? Sorcerer. The Dragon? Cleric. The Dark Chick/Evil Scientist? Mystic Theurge (Wizard + Cleric). Hell, the main antagonists don't even have non-casters except as lowly henchmen.

During his short time as a real wizard - though it took a soul splice and still came with a disturbing lack of brainpower - V managed to achieve things he or the Order would never have been able to do on their own.

As far as I remember, V has been openly called the most powerful member of the OoTS by either one of the principal characters (Roy?) or Rich Burlew himself.

And, finally: do not confuse plot-power with actual power. Xykon will likely remain the most powerful single character in the comic, and yet the rules of storytelling demand that he loses in the end. This does not make him any less powerful; it's just in this comic, Good triumphs over Evil.


Where is Vaarsuvius more optimised than say Roy? That flashy magic was a bit too blinding?

As has already been pointed out (on innumerable occasions on this forum), Vaarsuvius is a horribly mismanaged wizard, one of the worst wizard builds imaginable played by an inexperienced player.

But a wizard who is at least moderately intelligent... well, as an example let's just say Animate Dead makes better fighters than Roy could ever hope to be, and even a mid-level wizard could have dozens of such lackeys.

If you want an example of at least some brains in using magic, look at Xykon and partially Tsukiko. Though they are also unfortunately far from being optimized.


Also, the theory was that Tsukiko can win vs. everyone. Sure she could win vs. Haley but imagine they were not in "mostly open space" but a place where Haley could get more out of sneaking near and using her class abilities.

Scry-and-die. Tsu has actually been using half of it, though not the other half.

If Tsu allows Haley to live long enough to actually attempt sneaking up... there are spells that give Tremorsense. And undead characters can take Lifesense. And Tsu is surrounded by undead (and should have been undead herself by this point). Just to name a couple of examples.


IF you want to argue against one of the recurring plot-elements, you have to proof it instead of just stating "A, B, C are totally unoptimised and powerless vs. Caster" while "X would case lots of trouble to Caster". It all also depends on circumstances etc, which is no surprise as D&D can become very tactical.

I've done my share of arguing this stuff. You can search the forums - somewhere I even calculated a mock battle between Roy and a Fire Giant Skeleton animated by Vaarsuvius. Roy was splattered, and we didn't even get as far as Gold Dragon zombies. So yeah, if you still want to believe magic is nothing special... good luck.

[derfenrirwolv]

Isn't a "Straight Wizard with Multiclassing" a contradiction?

No, for two reasons.

1) Is that you take prestige classes that increase your wizard levels you are technically multiclassing but are still considered a wizard equal to your hitdice

2) Is that while Varsivius and the elven community produce many fine mages, many others holding to a more traditional view of gender relations have also managed to attain high levels in wizard.

[SPoD]

And, finally: do not confuse plot-power with actual power.

Yes, because plot power actually matters to the events in the comic. This so-called "actual power" does not.

Regardless of how you feel about the 3.5 rules, the fact is that it is a constant theme of the comic that magic isn't the only way. O-Chul drove off Redcloak with a metal bar. Mr. Scruffy regularly disrupts spellcasters. Hell, the entire POINT of the Darth Vaarsuvius arc was that magic isn't always the right tool that gets the job done.

You can argue (as you are) that no spellcaster is using their tools properly, but at a certain point, that starts to simply be the way magic is portrayed in this story. This hypothetical ultra-competence that you promote simply does not exist in the world the story is taking place in. They don't know how to do it. So whether or not it could exist in your local 3.5 game becomes meaningless because the author is clearly not interested in including it as part of the narrative.

So, in the comic strip, magic is really good but not invincible. No matter how it works in the game, because this comic is not a transcript of a game.

[slayerx]

Funny, I thought it was a big point of the comic that magic does represent the greatest power and danger there is. The Big Bad? Sorcerer. The Dragon? Cleric. The Dark Chick/Evil Scientist? Mystic Theurge (Wizard + Cleric). Hell, the main antagonists don't even have non-casters except as lowly henchmen.

I think your forgetting someone there chief :mitd:
Most definitely primarily physical fighter even if he's got a few spell-like abilities


During his short time as a real wizard - though it took a soul splice and still came with a disturbing lack of brainpower - V managed to achieve things he or the Order would never have been able to do on their own.

huh... funny I could have sworn that the order managed to get closer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)than V did on his own

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Regardless of how you feel about the 3.5 rules, the fact is that it is a constant theme of the comic that magic isn't the only way.
I don’t think anyone has claimed that magic is the only way. For anything, really. Properly applied, it can often be a better way—but then, not always.

My claim, at least, is that a tool not being used to its full potential is a reflection on the one using the tool, not the tool itself.


O-Chul drove off Redcloak with a metal bar. Mr. Scruffy regularly disrupts spellcasters. Hell, the entire POINT of the Darth Vaarsuvius arc was that magic isn't always the right tool that gets the job done.
I wouldn’t say that. The lesson focused more on not neglecting the tools that one can use alongside the magic. The only point in the Darth V arc where someone used a non-magical skill exclusive of actual magic was when Xykon used a listen check instead of a spell to find invisible V. Every other source of power—teamwork, improvised weapons, raw strength, potions— had a magical component. Even O-Chul took the time to enhance that metal bar with a Smite Evil, a supernatural ability.

Maximizing power is not about exclusion—using a “better” thing instead of another. It’s about inclusion—using everything you have to augment each other.


You can argue (as you are) that no spellcaster is using their tools properly, but at a certain point, that starts to simply be the way magic is portrayed in this story. This hypothetical ultra-competence that you promote simply does not exist in the world the story is taking place in. They don't know how to do it.
Those last two sentences don’t really jive with the first. Saying that no spellcaster knows how to use it does admit that it is the spellcasters not using the tools properly rather than any inherent feature of the tool.

Quite frankly, I find the idea of all wizards having the hyper-competency ascribed to them in certain quarters to be ridiculous for a number of reasons. But strategies that have leaned that direction have reared their heads from time to time. Hell, Xykon even refers to “Scry and Die” by name. It’s just a matter of the spellcaster characters not having the omniscient knowledge of the rules and a cooperative think tank with the scale of the Internet. But little by little, they do find more useful and efficient ways of plying their trade. Give it time, and that knowledge just might spread and be expanded upon.


So whether or not it could exist in your local 3.5 game becomes meaningless because the author is clearly not interested in including it as part of the narrative.
Not interested in including it at this time, anyway. :smalltongue:


So, in the comic strip, magic is really good but not invincible. No matter how it works in the game, because this comic is not a transcript of a game.
Even in the game, it’s not invincible.


huh... funny I could have sworn that the order managed to get closer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)than V did on his own
Oh, you mean when Xykon was actually letting them get closer so he could have them open the gate for him? What with the reliance on magic missile over meteor swarm.

[DeltaEmil]

O-Chul drove off Redcloak with a metal bar. O-Chul had specifically denied Redcloak most of his spells by taking away his unholy symbol, which was also the phylactery. Had Redcloak a second unholy symbol, he wouldn't have had to flee to get a new one.

Mr. Scruffy regularly disrupts spellcasters. Rule of funny, and we don't know how much skill-points Tsukiko has invested in concentration.

Hell, the entire POINT of the Darth Vaarsuvius arc was that magic isn't always the right tool that gets the job done.That's because he was already the clearly inferior magic user compared to Xykon, once the two remaining souls had cried how they became weaker after the energy drain, and he had already lost the most powerful soul splice on his way to Xykon's tower of power.


You can argue (as you are) that no spellcaster is using their tools properly, but at a certain point, that starts to simply be the way magic is portrayed in this story. This hypothetical ultra-competence that you promote simply does not exist in the world the story is taking place in. Xykon proves how efficient his dreaded spell-casting powers are. Durkon is also efficient, whenever he decides to get serious.



They don't know how to do it. So whether or not it could exist in your local 3.5 game becomes meaningless because the author is clearly not interested in including it as part of the narrative.Or he's giving the protagonists a chance, because being utterly defeated by page 106 isn't that good for a story.

So, in the comic strip, magic is really good but not invincible. No matter how it works in the game, because this comic is not a transcript of a game.It's the only way so far to beat Xykon, unless Roy gets another upgrade for his magical greatsword that could actually really finish off Xykon in one blow. Now, he did learn that feat from his grandfather, so perhaps there might be a chance, but we so far have no clue what it exactly does, when it can be applied (would it work against an invisible flying Xykon in ghostform sitting outside a moderately escapable force cage somewhere where you can't hear nor see him?), if it ever is going to be applied.

Of course, by now, the order will also have learned to not underestimate Xykon like they did the second time. Just having a starmetal sword alone is not enough to defeat the lich lord with his epic spell-casting abilities.

[SPoD]

I don’t think anyone has claimed that magic is the only way. For anything, really. Properly applied, it can often be a better way—but then, not always.

Undead Prince did. If you disagree, great. My comments were not directed at you, then.


My claim, at least, is that a tool not being used to its full potential is a reflection on the one using the tool, not the tool itself.

And I'm saying that the hypothetical "full potential" does not exist if no one ever demonstrates it in the narrative, and characters should not be held to that standard. Likewise, characters in OOTS are not necessarily aware of all the options available to them through even the basic spell list, much less third-party spells, obscure feats, or crazy prestige classes.


Those last two sentences don’t really jive with the first. Saying that no spellcaster knows how to use it does admit that it is the spellcasters not using the tools properly rather than any inherent feature of the tool.

I am more concerned with the expectation that they SHOULD be using the tools better. Saying that they should be using the tools better implies a deficiency on the part of the characters that is not realistic. You wouldn't say that the fact that Einstein didn't discover quantum physics "reflects poorly" on him.

I suppose they are not using the spellcasting tools properly in the same way as all engineers in the real world are lazy and stupid for not using the tools of physics to build working teleporters that we can use to travel to Mars. As in, it's technically the case but it's not worth finding fault with them over it.


Quite frankly, I find the idea of all wizards having the hyper-competency ascribed to them in certain quarters to be ridiculous for a number of reasons. But strategies that have leaned that direction have reared their heads from time to time. Hell, Xykon even refers to “Scry and Die” by name. It’s just a matter of the spellcaster characters not having the omniscient knowledge of the rules and a cooperative think tank with the scale of the Internet. But little by little, they do find more useful and efficient ways of plying their trade. Give it time, and that knowledge just might spread and be expanded upon.

We are in agreement, then.

EDIT: DeltaEmil, I don't really know what your point is beyond trying to dispute each example I gave. Are you saying that because those events had narrative justification that they somehow don't contribute to an overall theme of "Magic is cool, but not invincible"?

[slayerx]

Oh, you mean when Xykon was actually letting them get closer so he could have them open the gate for him? What with the reliance on magic missile over meteor swarm.
The boat on that sailed away once Haley stop Elan and warned them...

O-Chul had specifically denied Redcloak most of his spells by taking away his unholy symbol, which was also the phylactery. Had Redcloak a second unholy symbol, he wouldn't have had to flee to get a new one.

As Xykon has said, if you can loose all your power by simply loosing a will save (or in this case one magical object) then you never had any power at all... Really that fact that redcloak could be so easily denied all of his magical power in a single attack and left at the mercy of a melee fighter is a point against him... Not to mention we also know that Redcloak lost a one-on-one fight against miko who is primarily a type of fighter



Rule of funny, and we don't know how much skill-points Tsukiko has invested in concentration.
Not exactly... ANY kind of physical damage no matter the level or strength of the fighter will force a concentration check... So as long as Mr.Scruffy lands a hit he can cause a spell to fizzle. and casters are not known for their high AC's... Part of the reason Xykon may not fail concentration checks could be because he is epic level and therefore could have spent a lot more skills points into concentration; and the people he's fighting are much lower level... a more equel level'd fighter who deals more damage might make it harder for him to make those checks

[DeltaEmil]

EDIT: DeltaEmil, I don't really know what your point is beyond trying to dispute each example I gave. Are you saying that because those events had narrative justification that they somehow don't contribute to an overall theme of "Magic is cool, but not invincible"?Yes. The overall theme is still "Magic is all-powerful, important, the key to victory, and only magic can defeat magic (and save the world from being unraveled by the gods - Or is it?)".
At least for now.

So long as the order of the stick haven't reached epic levels, their attempts to defeat Xykon will be nigh-impossible. For this reason, they are trying to contact and warn the last remaining epic guardians of the gates, but even they have been pounded to the ground so far by Xykon's unparalleled use of energy drain.

[DeltaEmil]

As Xykon has said, if you can loose all your power by simply loosing a will save (or in this case one magical object) then you never had any power at all... Which will be a remainder for Redcloaks in form of his missing eye, that shall never be regenerated anymore.

Really that fact that redcloak could be so easily denied all of his magical power in a single attack and left at the mercy of a melee fighter is a point against him... Not to mention we also know that Redcloak lost a one-on-one fight against miko who is primarily a type of fighterRedcloak was waiting for Xykon to do some zappy spell and didn't pay attention.

Not exactly... ANY kind of physical damage no matter the level or strength of the fighter will force a concentration check... So as long as Mr.Scruffy lands a hit he can cause a spell to fizzle. and casters are not known for their high AC's... Part of the reason Xykon may not fail concentration checks could be because he is epic level and therefore could have spent a lot more skills points into concentration; and the people he's fighting are much lower level... a more equel level'd fighter who deals more damage might make it harder for him to make those checksThat's why I said whe don't know how much skill-points Tsukiko invested in concentration.

[SPoD]

Yes. The overall theme is still "Magic is all-powerful, important, the key to victory, and only magic can defeat magic (and save the world from being unraveled by the gods - Or is it?)".

Then you and I are interpreting this work of fiction entirely differently.

I have no idea how you've reached that conclusion, except insofar as that's the case in D&D 3.5 and you're assuming that it's the case here until proven otherwise. I see nothing in the actual comic that supports that belief, except for a few characters who seem to believe it themselves and are then rudely shown otherwise.

Generally speaking, I assume that the "theme" of a work of literature should actually be expressed through the events that take place. It seems odd to me that you would think the theme would be the exact opposite of what a large chunk of the story has spent time discussing.

[Kish]

Redcloak was waiting for Xykon to do some zappy spell and didn't pay attention.
Not that I agree that that's why he lost to Miko, but if it was, that would just mean Redcloak deserves the prize for the most epically bad pattern recognition ever.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Undead Prince did. If you disagree, great. My comments were not directed at you, then.
Eh, I certainly didn’t read the Prince’s post that way. Literally, he claimed it was superior, but certainly didn’t say it was the only way. The tone of his post also has something to do with a gut response to Ancalagon’s apparent sentiment that magic is well balanced against the rest of D&D.


And I'm saying that the hypothetical "full potential" does not exist if no one ever demonstrates it in the narrative, and characters should not be held to that standard.
It does not exist in the context of the narrative, no. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in the narrative’s universe. Especially in a dynamic universe.


Likewise, characters in OOTS are not necessarily aware of all the options available to them through even the basic spell list, much less third-party spells, obscure feats, or crazy prestige classes.
Nope. Would be a pretty boring story if they were, wouldn’t it?


I am more concerned with the expectation that they SHOULD be using the tools better.
I never meant to imply any level of should. Could, maybe, but not should. My statements were meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive.


Saying that they should be using the tools better implies a deficiency on the part of the characters that is not realistic. You wouldn't say that the fact that Einstein didn't discover quantum physics "reflects poorly" on him.

I suppose they are not using the spellcasting tools properly in the same way as all engineers in the real world are lazy and stupid for not using the tools of physics to build working teleporters that we can use to travel to Mars. As in, it's technically the case but it's not worth finding fault with them over it.
When I referred to spellcasters using their spells “properly” I meant “properly as according to D&D character optimization theory” rather than “properly as according to their available in-character knowledge.” The statement is not meant to reflect on the character, its intelligence, or its work ethic.

And if the state of physic is such that it carries the potential for teleportation to Mars, then we certainly aren’t using physics to its full potential. And that doesn’t reflect on any physicist. Physics has a freaking huge potential, and no one person could possibly learn it all on their own and in their lifetime. Those that bring us closer to this full potential are some of the smartest and hardest working people there are.


We are in agreement, then.
With the conclusion if not the path by which we reach it, at least. :smallwink:


The boat on that sailed away once Haley stop Elan and warned them...
Didn’t cause Xykon to put up his defenses and start taking the Order seriously, though. He was still playing softball. He even turned his back on Roy just so he could make a speech.

Though, I suppose that reflects on his Power just as much as it would if he could lose it all by failing his will save.



Not exactly... ANY kind of physical damage no matter the level or strength of the fighter will force a concentration check...
But since you don’t autofail skill checks on a natural 1, and the DC is based on damage done, a character with a +10 or better Concentration check can be immune to spell failure from an average house cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm). And animal companion buffs from a ranger of Belkar’s level are not enough to change that.


So as long as Mr.Scruffy lands a hit he can cause a spell to fizzle.
Only if the caster is capable of failing the check.


and casters are not known for their high AC's...
High is relative. A caster of Tsukiko’s level even modestly equipped by DMG standards and unprepared for the assault should have an AC high enough to give a housecat trouble.

[Gandariel]

just pointing out... Tsukiko DOES use buffs
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html

[sockmonkey]

Having been a cat owner all my life and having dealt with cats when they're in full freak-out mode I'd have to say that getting one in the face will startle the crap out of just about anyone. Cat = furry grenade.

[Undead Prince]

If I only got a dime for every time someone claims "DnD doesn't matter in this comic". It's been addressed in the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq1), it's been disproved time and again, but to no avail. Tedious...


Yes, because plot power actually matters to the events in the comic. This so-called "actual power" does not.

There are two problems with that statement.

First, it means nothing the characters say or do matters, none of their abilities matter, the plot will have its way and that's it. Rich is not such a bad writer to cram plot down our throats without providing a measure of reasoning and believability. That would have been poor storytelling indeed. In the comic, the characters' "actual power" has a very direct impact on the plot. Most of the time the plot's basically revolving around it. Starting from the requirement to have arcane and divine casters to perform the Snarl Ritual.

Second, the original poster specifically asked about the combat effectiveness of the character Tsukiko in a fight between Team Evil and the Order. This is relevant to her "actual power", i.e. abilities as per DnD ruleset and her usage of said abilities. It is pointless to speculate about her "plot power" in such a situation, because obviously in the comic she will win or lose depending on the course of the narration.


You can argue (as you are) that no spellcaster is using their tools properly, but at a certain point, that starts to simply be the way magic is portrayed in this story. This hypothetical ultra-competence that you promote simply does not exist in the world the story is taking place in. They don't know how to do it.

The comic has provided us with many examples of how a character may increse his or her actual power by inelligently using the toolset. On a number of occasions characters have explicitely referred to using DnD supplementary material to improve their magic and achieve the desired goals. Far from being irrelevant, such instances are often plot points of various importance. Xykon becoming a Lich, Redcloak creating uncommon undead, Tsukiko learning no-save spells, even Belkar taking a level of Barbarian and Elan becoming a Swashbuckler "Dashing Swordsman" are all examples of such proactive thinking. Sometimes this thinking even saves the character's life (e.g. Redcloak's Word of Recall, Xykon's Symbol traps and putting a ton of Abjurations on the phylactery).

So not only the characters know how to improve themselves by thinking out of the box and actively seeking better options - they have successfully done so. Tsukiko in particular has shown herself to be able and willing to dig deeper into the system in order to make herself more powerful.


Hell, the entire POINT of the Darth Vaarsuvius arc was that magic isn't always the right tool that gets the job done.

On at least three occasions, magic allowed a protagonist to come within an inch of destroying the Big Bad and ending the comic - and in all three cases, the Big Bad triumphed via magic.

The reason Vaarsuvius so often gets the short end of the stick is due to his character faults, not any inherent weakness of magic itself. As Xykon - a much more successful magic-user- lectures him on the nature of power, the comic basically spells out that Vaarsuvius failed not because he had inadequate tools, but because he had an inadequate outlook on reality. After all, even with the best gun you have to know how to shoot.


Regardless of how you feel about the 3.5 rules, the fact is that it is a constant theme of the comic that magic isn't the only way.

It's the shortest/fastest/most powerful/most certain way in a vast majority of situations. V's short foray into real wizardhood allowed him to do more than the Order could do in months and some things they likely could not have done otherwise (breaking through Cloister and almost killing Xykon). The problem with our protagonists is they have only two magic users and both are dreadfully incompetent. Team Evil are far more efficient with their magic, and look how far they've got: destroying an entire state and installing their own empire on the ruins, protected by epic magic and surveying the surrounding lands with divinations. Whereas the Order can't even cast Scry + Teleport and has to go places on foot. Sure, it arguably makes for a more compelling story (though personally I like protagonists to be smart and efficient); but, if anything, it serves to emphasise the importance of proper magic use.

We have had, in the comic, glimpses into the potential of magic if it's used propely. Some characters use it (and the system as a whole) more efficiently and are shown to be willing to learn more; others - less and are shown to be persistent in their dumb ways. My point was that Tsukiko is one of the former,and if she applied more brains to her strategy and tactics, she could triumph over the whole of OoTS by herself. Whether or not this will actually occur in the comic is irrelevant, I do not take upon myself to speculate on the author's narrative plans. But she is built up as a rather strong character who is constantly improving herself,so it's likely she and her undead will represent a major hurdle, though probably not to the point of optimal gaming, otherwise the situation would become too disbalanced against our hapless heroes.

[Undead Prince]

I don’t think anyone has claimed that magic is the only way. For anything, really. Properly applied, it can often be a better way—but then, not always.

Undead Prince did.

Don't be putting words in my mouth. I never claimed that "magic is the only way".


And I'm saying that the hypothetical "full potential" does not exist if no one ever demonstrates it in the narrative, and characters should not be held to that standard.

Examples afforded by the more efficient characters, such as Xykon and Tsukiko, gave us glimpses at the potential, as did V during his splice. Other characters have also been shown striving to improve themselves in order to gain more power via exploiting the DnD ruleset. Even Thog comments how the third level of Fighter is a dumb level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html). And let's not forget the Half-ogre wth the spiked chain, who self-admittedly optimised his entire build for the sake of a Perfect Combo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

So the optimisation mentality is not uncommon in this comic. It's just that there are very few characers who manage to take it to a decent level of efficiency.

If V had at least the efficiency of Xykon, we'd be seeing an entirely different story.

But Xykon himself cannot be called the epitome of efficiency possible in the OoTS universe. He has been often criticized by other characters, so they saw room for his improvement. Wizard-Sorcerer animosity aside, his own Unholy Master, for example, refused to promote him due to his lack of strategic and leadership skills (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Xykon).

And Xykon is also the poster-boy for the accumulation of power. His speech in SoD: "In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed". His lecture to V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) - "Power equals power" - is basically a crash course on the ideology of optimisation. V lost not because magic was somehow inferior or "not the answer", but because the arcane power was shackled to his "lame mid-level ass" and he couldn't propery utilise his resources.


Likewise, characters in OOTS are not necessarily aware of all the options available to them through even the basic spell list, much less third-party spells, obscure feats, or crazy prestige classes.

Tsukiko "looked up" non-core evocations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) (specifically, the Orb line from Spell Compendium). She's aso baking undead minions like pies, and is looking into new forms of undead to create.

Redcloak "got all the monster book together" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) to look up undead that are skeletal and free-willed (in the strip, we can see he's been reading Monster Manual II, Fiend Folio and Book of Vile Darkness). Red also got "every Mind Probe, every Zone of Truth, every divination of any sort" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) when interrogating O-Chul. Mind Probe is a psionic power, and "every divination of any sort" speaks for itself. We see a Psion interrogating O-Chul, and are told that an Incarnum user is down the line - both being about as far from core as it gets.

V's library as seen during his islandic sabbatical includes dozens various books, mostly on spellcraft but also such gems as "finding plot holes for dummies" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), and he actually designed his own spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html)

Xykon spends the maximum possible time every day crafting magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), which aready saved him at least once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

So it's evident that at least the most intelligent and magically inclined characters have access to a wide variety of options, including non-core. Hell, even Belkar considers taking "an over-powered prestige class" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html)on level-up.

Also, optimal feats, spells and prestige classes are not necessarily "obscure". One of the most powerful arcane PrCs is the Red Wizard from the DMG. The Wizard class is awesome by itself, even without any PrC - if you know how to use it. Crafting feats from the PHB are excellent and powerful for any caster, and yet neither V nor Durkon took them - V even ignores Craft Scroll which he got for free as a Wizard. Leadership I won't even mention. Animate Dead is a PHB spell which clerics get at level 3 and Wizards at 4, which alone can obviate the need for fighters and other meatshields. Not to mention staples like divinations and teleportations which should be in any wizard's arsenal. And it's widely regarded that the PHB is the source of the most powerful spells in general. So a character can be optimised reasonably well even using nothing else but the PHB + DMG.


I am more concerned with the expectation that they SHOULD be using the tools better. Saying that they should be using the tools better implies a deficiency on the part of the characters that is not realistic. You wouldn't say that the fact that Einstein didn't discover quantum physics "reflects poorly" on him.

Let's see:

1) The character has beyond-genius level intelligence (current consesus ascribes to V an Intelligence score of 23) or very high intelligence and wisdom (Tsukiko has at least 16 and 15 respectively, with 10 being human average);

2) The character has intimate knowledge of the Arcane arts (ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) + INT bonus);

3) The character has access to core and non-core DnD material plus can design own spells.

Is it unreasonable to expect of him basic proficiency in his craft? It's not rocket science - although these characters have the abilities and skills to actually be "rocket scientists" in their chosen field.

And the inefficiency of the characters is often enough recognised by other characters. To go away from spellcasters for a moment, the Archon specifically says that Roy could have performed with more efficiency, but they don't penalise people for ineffectiveness. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html)


I suppose they are not using the spellcasting tools properly in the same way as all engineers in the real world are lazy and stupid for not using the tools of physics to build working teleporters that we can use to travel to Mars. As in, it's technically the case but it's not worth finding fault with them over it.

Xykon and Tsukiko are working teleporters (both practically and metaphorically). And V is indeed lazy and stupid for not being one (apart from the absolute technicality of transferring his character from 3.0, which should not even have been an issue, there are other ways of getting teleportation, the most optimal being Divine Magician with the Travel domain).



DeltaEmil, I don't really know what your point is beyond trying to dispute each example I gave. Are you saying that because those events had narrative justification that they somehow don't contribute to an overall theme of "Magic is cool, but not invincible"?

First,that is not what was being said at all. Here's the argument-starter:


I find it funny how people still make the mistake of assume Magic was somehow superiour. It's a big point of this comic it does not work this way.

Note the difference between superior and invincible. Strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman).

Second, to invoke the sister comic of OoTS - Erfworld - a perfect warlord is not someone who wins every battle, but someone who does everything possible to win. Total invincibility is never an option, but making the most out of a situation, having the most powerful tools - that is the potential of magic, which is usually incomparable to the non-magical abilities of player characters.

[Undead Prince]

I think your forgetting someone there chief :mitd:
Most definitely primarily physical fighter even if he's got a few spell-like abilities

He's never done anything of value, and now is actively considering treason. I don't consider MiTD t be a member of Team Evil - at most, a useless pet which Xykon can't even control properly.

[137beth]

Tsukiko "looked up" non-core evocations (specifically, the Orb line from Spell Compendium).

Redcloak "got all the monster book together" to look up undead that are skeletal and free-willed (in the strip, we can see he's been reading Monster Manual II, Fiend Folio and Book of Vile Darkness). Red also got "every Mind Probe, every Zone of Truth, every divination of any sort" when interrogating O-Chul. Mind Probe is a psionic power, and "every divination of any sort" speaks for itself. We see a Psion interrogating O-Chul, and are told that an Incarnum user is down the line - both being about as far from core as it gets.

V's library as seen during his islandic sabbatical includes dozens various books, mostly on spellcraft but also such gems as "finding plot holes for dummies", and he actually designed his own spells.

So it's evident that at least the most intelligent and magically inclined characters have access to a wide variety of options, including non-core.

Also, optimal feats, spells and prestige classes are not necessarily "obscure". One of the most powerful arcane PrCs is the Red Wizard from the DMG. The Wizard class is awesome by itself, even without any PrC - if you know how to use it. Crafting feats from the PHB are excellent and powerful for any caster, and yet neither V nor Durkon took them - V even ignores Craft Scroll which he got for free as a Wizard. Leadership I won't even mention. Animate Dead is a PHB spell which clerics get at level 3 and Wizards at 4, which alone can obviate the need for fighters and other meatshields. Not to mention staples like divinations and teleportations which should be in any wizard's arsenal. And it's widely regarded that the PHB is the source of the most powerful spells in general. So a character can be optimised reasonably well even using nothing else but the PHB + DMG.

Most of the characters do seem aware of options. Belkar, however, seems to have difficulty with some things, like not being aware that rangers can cast spells. In one of the Dragon Magazine comics, he even revealed that he had not previously known that Xp is divided among the party!

Of course, given that many other characters ARE aware of options, Belkar's ignorance is probably due more to his stupidity than anything else.

[Undead Prince]

just pointing out... Tsukiko DOES use buffs
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html

We don't know if any of them are Abjurations.

[Undead Prince]

Most of the characters do seem aware of options. Belkar, however, seems to have difficulty with some things, like not being aware that rangers can cast spells. In one of the Dragon Magazine comics, he even revealed that he had not previously known that Xp is divided among the party!

Of course, given that many other characters ARE aware of options, Belkar's ignorance is probably due more to his stupidity than anything else.

In one of the first strips increasing Belkar's Wisdom by 4 via Owl's Wisdom not only gave him the ability to cast Cure Serious Wounds from scrolls, but also heightened his understanding of the world and changed his entire outlook on life. So his ignorance of the rules is most likely deliberately tied to his low mental stats.

[137beth]

Yes, I referred to that strip specifically. In fact, almost every other character in the series seems aware of how the game works (the only other example I can think of off the top of my head is MitD, who said he could help animate the dead because the marshmellows were chewy), thus it probably is Belkar's low Wisdom.

[slayerx]

But since you don’t autofail skill checks on a natural 1, and the DC is based on damage done, a character with a +10 or better Concentration check can be immune to spell failure from an average house cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm). And animal companion buffs from a ranger of Belkar’s level are not enough to change that.

Actually, Mr.Scruffy didn't just attacked, he was actively clinging to Tsukiko's soft unprotected FACE and clawing at it... As a DM i would definitely count that as a MUCH higher DC check than a normal attack


He's never done anything of value, and now is actively considering treason. I don't consider MiTD t be a member of Team Evil - at most, a useless pet which Xykon can't even control properly.
The point is that Team Evil does not believe in the absolute of magical power as so many people here believe in it... When the heroes make their big entrance Xykon was planning on calling in MitD to be an active fighter; a source of immense physical strength that will do wonders at keeping the entire party busy and that the entire order may not be able to take down

Just because that plan may not work out for Xykon doesn't change the fact that Xykon does see value in physical might and want to use it when the heroes show up for the final most epic battle...

[137beth]

Actually, Mr.Scruffy didn't just attacked, he was actively clinging to Tsukiko's soft unprotected FACE and clawing at it... As a DM i would definitely count that as a MUCH higher DC check than a normal attack



I would also have her make an additional reflex save (or some other roll) to determine if Mr. Scruffy scratched her eyes, which would result in more damage and blindness.




The point is that Team Evil does not believe in the absolute of magical power as so many people here believe in it... When the heroes make their big entrance Xykon was planning on calling in MitD to be an active fighter; a source of immense physical strength that will do wonders at keeping the entire party busy and that the entire order may not be able to take down

Just because that plan may not work out for Xykon doesn't change the fact that Xykon does see value in physical might and want to use it when the heroes show up for the final most epic battle...

In fact, Xykon even said that spells do not equal power. That's absolute proof that Xykon does not believe magic is the ultimate power source.

[Poppy Appletree]

I am more concerned with the expectation that they SHOULD be using the tools better. Saying that they should be using the tools better implies a deficiency on the part of the characters that is not realistic. You wouldn't say that the fact that Einstein didn't discover quantum physics "reflects poorly" on him.

Well no, Einstein didn't discover quantum physics, because quantum physics was discovered several decades before Einstein was even born - even Max Planck, who effectively launched the field of quantum mechanics, was not alive at this time. Planck's postulate, that gave birth to quantum mechanics as we know it, was made at the age of 42, and he himself admitted to not giving much thought to, but was still what earned him the Nobel Prize; at this time Einstein was only 21, and had just finished his first round of university studies - when Einstein was 26, however, he released four monumental academic papers, one of which examined the implications of Planck's work on the photoelectric effect, for which Einstein received the Nobel Prize.

Still, I'm not sure how not having been born at the time when critical discoveries are made that open up a new scientific field would "reflect poorly" on someone. :smallconfused:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Actually, Mr.Scruffy didn't just attacked, he was actively clinging to Tsukiko's soft unprotected FACE and clawing at it... As a DM i would definitely count that as a MUCH higher DC check than a normal attack
Continuous damage is a lower DC. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)


I would also have her make an additional reflex save (or some other roll) to determine if Mr. Scruffy scratched her eyes, which would result in more damage and blindness.
Now that’s just making up a house rule on the spot.

[slayerx]

Continuous damage is a lower DC. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)


That chart really does NOT reflect what Mr.Scruffy is doing to Tsukiko... continuous damage was more ment to reflect stuff like pioson, acid, and burns... Mr.Scruffy looks to be more like he's making seperate attacks each round... Furtharmore, he's quite literally clinging to Tsukiko's face and hair. i imagine the reason that burns and acid are a lower DC is because these would be considered minor distractions and It's quite clear that Tsukiko finds him to be much more than a minor distraction. Sometimes as a DM you do have to make house rules based on special circumstances... to me it's more like Mr.Scruffy has a grapple check to stay cling to her face and is dealign damage each round (like if he was using rake). Really in this case, i could easily house rule that what Mr.Scruffy is doing warrants a much higher DC than normal

[Darthteej]

There are some things in the comic that go as to why superior spellcasting is bad, and ranting against it. Roy's grandfather seemed to be an argument by The Giant that there's no problem with being a fighter, he was proud of his son(the main character, lest ye forget) for sticking with a tier-5 class, and possessed an ability that allowed him to immediately kill spellcasters.

In addition, something that someone on TV Tropes pointed out on this page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards), most of the problems in the comic are causes by people mucking about with high-level magic. Xykon also slaughtered the gates guarded with tier-one spellcasters, and gave some awesome speeches to boot, but was taken down without a contest by Soon Kim. Durkon, for his part, seems to know exactly how to be an awesome cleric, but chooses not to, likely as a ritual of humility.

[Undead Prince]

The point is that Team Evil does not believe in the absolute of magical power as so many people here believe in it... When the heroes make their big entrance Xykon was planning on calling in MitD to be an active fighter; a source of immense physical strength that will do wonders at keeping the entire party busy and that the entire order may not be able to take down

Just because that plan may not work out for Xykon doesn't change the fact that Xykon does see value in physical might and want to use it when the heroes show up for the final most epic battle...

To once again quote Xykon, power equals power. Far be it from a good player to ignore the value of physical might. That is why one of the tasks of a good spellcaster is to provide himself with adequate meatshields, be it animated or commanded undead, dominated living, crafted golems, cohorts, followers, hirelings or "party members". Magic provides excellent ways of obtaining such physical muscle.

As for the MiTD Xykon specificay charmed it to do his bidding at least in the matter of Redcloak and the phylactery.

[whitelaughter]

The only reason Tsu had any sort of trouble with Haley is because in this comic, spellcasters are using maybe 10% of their real potential. If Tsukiko were used properly, she'd curb stomp the entire OoTS no prob, especially with access to non-core material.
Sadly true. Still, I doubt there'd be much of a comic if Tsukiko had turned the entire goblin army into undead (not just wights, a balanced force of shadows, wights and spectres) and depopulated the continent.

A related question: who do you think captured Tsukiko? I'd say not Miko; Miko would be unlikely to take someone so profoundly evil prisoner. Hinjo maybe? It would need to be a Paladin of at least 11th level, to be able to dust wights when Turning.

[hamishspence]

What about Shojo's high-level wizard- the one who got killed when he accidentally teleported the Order to what looked like a Roc's nest?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html

[Trixie]

Roy's grandfather seemed to be an argument by The Giant that there's no problem with being a fighter, he was proud of his son(the main character, lest ye forget) for sticking with a tier-5 class, and possessed an ability that allowed him to immediately kill spellcasters.

Any proof that it works that way? All grandpa says it will force caster to make a high concentration check.


Xykon also slaughtered the gates guarded with tier-one spellcasters, and gave some awesome speeches to boot, but was taken down without a contest by Soon Kim. Durkon, for his part, seems to know exactly how to be an awesome cleric, but chooses not to, likely as a ritual of humility.

Soon had absurd amount of divine-magic buffs stacked on him, and yet, he lost. If Xykon had been one bit more efficient, he would have wiped the floor with Soon and stopped Miko just as easily as he did Baldy.

[hamishspence]

Soon had absurd amount of divine-magic buffs stacked on him, and yet, he lost. If Xykon had been one bit more efficient, he would have wiped the floor with Soon and stopped Miko just as easily as he did Baldy.

What buffs are those? Neither of these strips:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html

the only strips with Soon fighting in them, mention buff spells- the only things mentioned are that Soon is an incorporeal, positive energy spirit, in a room with a Consecrate spell.

[Trixie]

the only strips with Soon fighting in them, mention buff spells- the only things mentioned are that Soon is an incorporeal, positive energy spirit, in a room with a Consecrate spell.

You know, I don't know if you're ironic given that the stuff you mentioned is in itself buff enough to make a monster out of anyone, especially given the nature of his opponent, but he also used his Divine magic and abilities (such as smite) quite freely.

[hamishspence]

The use of the phrase "absurd amount of buffs" was what drew my attention.

Smite Evil is not a buff.

And Soon didn't lose the fight with Xykon- he was winning until Miko's intervention distracted him, allowing Xykon and Redcloak to escape.

Even Consecrate isn't so much a buff for Soon, as a weakener for Xykon:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm

We don't see Soon casting any defensive or ability-boosting spells "buffs" on himself at all. We can theorise that he has them, but we cannot prove it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

That chart really does NOT reflect what Mr.Scruffy is doing to Tsukiko... continuous damage was more ment to reflect stuff like pioson, acid, and burns... Mr.Scruffy looks to be more like he's making seperate attacks each round...
In that case, the rule is that you make the Concentration check agaisnt each Attack of Opportunity and/or attack readied against her spell.


Furtharmore, he's quite literally clinging to Tsukiko's face and hair.Unless you’re suggesting Mr. Scruffy’s weight can shake up a person with the equivalent of a galloping horse or a storm-tossed ship, the DC is still well below 15.


i imagine the reason that burns and acid are a lower DC is because these would be considered minor distractions and It's quite clear that Tsukiko finds him to be much more than a minor distraction.
Say its a strong acid, does 3d6 damage per round. Average 10 damage. Versus a cat’s claw or bit attack, which is 1 damage. And the Acid is minor?

The reason continuous damage is halved is because it is, well, continuous. A spellcaster is taking 10 damage per round, but only 5 of that actually occurs while casting the spell.


Sometimes as a DM you do have to make house rules based on special circumstances...
A cat making an attack against a spellcaster is not a special circumstance. We already have rules for that.


to me it's more like Mr.Scruffy has a grapple check to stay cling toher face…
Grapple? Oh, we have rules for that. One of which is:


You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

Mr. Scruffy, is Tiny. Tsukiko is Medium. Two size category difference. It’s not grappling. Probably just artistic license, really. At best, a way of depicting a Tiny creature sharing another’s space.


her face and is dealign damage each round (like if he was using rake).
Housecats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) do not have rake attacks. Even if they did, those are still individual attacks that, by most rakes, would do at most a whopping two damage per round.


Really in this case, i could easily house rule that what Mr.Scruffy is doing warrants a much higher DC than normal
And how arbitrary it would be.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Housecats do not have rake attacks. Even if they did, those are still individual attacks that, by most rakes, would do at most a whopping two damage per round.

you are assuming Mr Scruffy is a housecat and not a Super-Cat (or something similiar) with class levels

[Trixie]

The use of the phrase "absurd amount of buffs" was what drew my attention.

The point is, he was immune to most attacks Xykon could give. That absurd advantage in any D&D battle.


And Soon didn't lose the fight with Xykon- he was winning until Miko's intervention distracted him, allowing Xykon and Redcloak to escape.

Really. The same can be said about Xykon - he was distracted by taunts. Had he stayed calm, and casted one of his nukes, he would have won.

Plus, at the end of the day, Xykon was alive, Gate was destroyed, and every paladin was wiped out. Twice. I fail to say how this is not a colossal loss for Team Blue.

[Reverent-One]

Really. The same can be said about Xykon - he was distracted by taunts. Had he stayed calm, and casted one of his nukes, he would have won.

Plus, at the end of the day, Xykon was alive, Gate was destroyed, and every paladin was wiped out. Twice. I fail to say how this is not a colossal loss for Team Blue.

Of course it was a colassal loss for Team Blue, but if not for the craziness of Miko, it would have been a total loss for Team Evil.

[hamishspence]

The point is, he was immune to most attacks Xykon could give. That absurd advantage in any D&D battle.

But not the same thing as "having an absurd number of buffs"- seeing as being incorporeal is a normal trait of him, whereas Xykon has to get it via the buff Ghostform.

Think of it this way- if a wizard who has overspecialized in cold spells is stomped by a white dragon, he hasn't lost because the white dragon was "buffed" he lost because he's not equipped to deal with it.


Really. The same can be said about Xykon - he was distracted by taunts. Had he stayed calm, and casted one of his nukes, he would have won.

And what nukes are those? How many spells does Xykon have that don't have a risk of not damaging incorporeal creatures, besides Magic Missile?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html


Plus, at the end of the day, Xykon was alive, Gate was destroyed, and every paladin was wiped out. Twice. I fail to say how this is not a colossal loss for Team Blue.

But not a case of "Soon lost the fight with Xykon".

[Undead Prince]

There are some things in the comic that go as to why superior spellcasting is bad, and ranting against it.

Name one. And hold to your words - that superior spellcasting is bad, and that the rant is against superior spellcasting, and not the personal faults of the user.

Furthermore, there are a ton of things in the comic that show the opposite - how superior spellcasting is powerful and crucial.

Here we go, for instance:


Durkon: I was wrong. Telling you for all those months that your magic wasn't going to solve it all. It DID. That spell you cast... it was amazing! Kazumi said you teleported the entire fleet! And you went toe to toe with Xykon himself! I didn't think that sort of power was possible. Who knows how much sooner we'd have gotten Roy back if I'd helped instead of lecturing you.

Vaarsuvius: ...It was... such a waste. {...} I squandered its true potential by wielding it like a cudgel. Only when I lost did I stop to consider what I was doing, and only then did I become effective. When I think of all I might have accomplished... I almost weep.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html


This exchange represents the results of character development at the end of a story arc, and is good evidence towards how magic is really regarded in the OoTS-verse.


Roy's grandfather seemed to be an argument by The Giant that there's no problem with being a fighter

There is no problem being a fighter. So long as you're okay with the fact that a moderate wizard can bring 10 times more melee meatshields to the table, and still have his full complement of spells which do things the fighter woud never be able to do, it's perfectly all right.

And actually, a well-optimised fighter may easily be more powerful than a clueless wizard. The Tome of Battle, in particular, has very interesting options.


he was proud of his son(the main character, lest ye forget) for sticking with a tier-5 class

Don't you mean grandson? And why wouldn't Horace be proud of Roy, him being so disdainful towards spellcasters, including his actual son Eugene? It's far more likely he's just biased towards fighters, like Eugene or V are biased towards wizards versus all other classes, even sorcerers and clerics - a hardly rational idiosyncrasy that is merely a character trait. Or, it may simply be a gesture of moral support from a wise old man who achieved the third level of enlightenment. After all, at this point Roy can't do anything about himself being a fighter, so pointing out the inherent deficiencies of his class would have been useless.

Furthermore, if Horace was proud of Roy, Eugene was proud of V, going so far as to say, "If my son were more like you, we'd be wrapping this series up by now" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).

Also, whatever do you mean by "tier-5"?


and possessed an ability that allowed him to immediately kill spellcasters.

Excuse me?


Horace: If that had been a real caster, his spell would be messed up something fierce right now.

Roy's Archon: All those weeks of training... and you've managed to finally perfect the art of disrupting the spellcasting of a dummy.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html

Where does it say anything about immediately killing anyone? All the feat does is disrupt casting, like a failed Concentration check. And Roy would still need to actually hit Xykon to do it. An epic level lich sorcerer is a slightly different target than a dummy.


most of the problems in the comic are causes by people mucking about with high-level magic.

That only serves to indicate the power of high-level magic. Like advanced weaponry in our world, it tends to create all sorts of danger.


Xykon also slaughtered the gates guarded with tier-one spellcasters, and gave some awesome speeches to boot, but was taken down without a contest by Soon Kim.

Soon Kim was basically a monster, not a character. And a very special one - a "positive energy spirit, possibly homebrewed or cribbed off from another campaign setting". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) The evil clerics couldn't Rebuke-Command him or his followers because they "weren't exactly undead". Likewise, Command Undead, Control Undead, Undeath to Death may not have had the desired effect, had Xykon tried to use them. Moreover, the throne room was Consecrated so Redcloak couldn't destroy Soon. So it took a roomful of homebrewed anti-undead monsters with resistance against most arcane and divine magic and abilities, strengthened by a placed spell effect, to bring Xykon down. At least Red managed to destroy most of the "ghost-martyrs", and Xykon flew them out when opportunity presented itself. A figter type would not have been able to even harm the incorporeals without a magic weapon, and would have been killed when Miko destroyed the Gate.

So, this incident only shows that with an absolutely unpredictable encounter heavily stacked against the party the DM can TPK even high level magic users. Although the TPK was certainly avoidable, and Redcloak might have started using Word of Recall specifically to avoid such fiascos in the future.


Durkon, for his part, seems to know exactly how to be an awesome cleric, but chooses not to, likely as a ritual of humility.

Ritual of humility? A Lawful Good cleric deliberately limiting his powers when the lives of his friends and allies, the existence of the world itself are threatened, just for the egotistical satisfaction of being "humble"? Not likely. Durkon's been giving all he's got. It's just, like V, he's not good at optimising - although he does seem to be using his abilities more efficiently than the elf.

[Undead Prince]

In fact, Xykon even said that spells do not equal power. That's absolute proof that Xykon does not believe magic is the ultimate power source.

Yeah right, himself being an epic level lich sorcerer seeking to control a world-destroying abomination via magic ritual. What Xykon says is that by themselves spells do not equal power. V lost because the epic wizardry was "shackled to his lame mid-level ass". As V put it himself, he "used the power like a cudgel" and "squandered its potential". Which is what we've been saying all along - V is simply a bad wizard, and no amount of free spellcasting will change it, he'll still be using it in an inefficient, unoptimal manner.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

you are assuming Mr Scruffy is a housecat and not a Super-Cat (or something similiar) with class levels
The burden of proof is on you for that assertion.


Also, whatever do you mean by "tier-5"?
A method of ranking the power of different classes developed on the WoTC boards and currently available on Brilliang Gameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Each class is ranked on a tier from 1 to 6, with 1 being the most powerful and 6 being the least. For the purposes of this ranking, power is defined in relation to what jobs a class is supposed to be able to do in and out of combat, how well it actually does them, as well as whether it is capable of performing other jobs. A Tier 1 class, for example, can do just about anything, often better than a lower-tier class that specializes in that thing. Tier 6 is defined as being largely incapable of even performing its own speciality. In this system, Wizards are classified as Tier 1, and fighters are classified as Tier 5.

[King of Nowhere]

It is to be said that an unoptimized character is generally more believable than an optimized one. Optimizing a character is something you can do when picking abilities on a character sheet, but in real life you'll do many things because they suit you.
I mean, look at us: any one of use spent some skill points in knowledge (roleplaying games) and probably other skill points in videogaming or other hobbies.
And I'm sure there are activities that will earn us more xp than writing on a forum.
There are very few people focusing only on their career/power.

Also, it seems the universe is trying to deliberately force some sort of arbitrary equality between those who can reshape matter with thougths and those who cannot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html).
Generally, it appears that the powers of this universe don't like an excessive degree of min-maxing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).
So probably spellcasters can't play to their real strength for some reasons.

[Darthteej]

Indeed, optimizing in a real world context can be ridiculous. Mega cheese builds require levels in so many classes that it's not even funny. In addition, some of the most powerful ones, like Ur-Priests, are supposed to come with major social baggage. Tsukio may be powerful, but she's also insane.

[Undead Prince]

It is to be said that an unoptimized character is generally more believable than an optimized one.

Well, not if 1) it's their job, 2) they have the required intelligence, the required skills, and access to the necessary information; 3) their lives and the fate of the world depends on it.


Optimizing a character is something you can do when picking abilities on a character sheet, but in real life you'll do many things because they suit you. I mean, look at us: any one of use spent some skill points in knowledge (roleplaying games) and probably other skill points in videogaming or other hobbies.

The self-professed goal of Vaarsuvius is more arcane power, and he doesn't have any other hobbies. Same with Tsukiko - her entire life revolves around magic and the undead. Same with Xykon - magic is his all-consuming hobby.


And I'm sure there are activities that will earn us more xp than writing on a forum.

Actually, I find written online debates to be helpful in my job, which also involves a lot of arguing in foreign languages (I am a diplomat specialising in international law).


There are very few people focusing only on their career/power.

But most people tend to do their jobs at least competently. If we take Vaarsuvius as an example, his Intelligence score, ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge skills, and his massive experience (he's one of the most powerful wizards in the world by now) implies a high level of competence at his job. Whereas in reality he's really bad at it.


Also, it seems the universe is trying to deliberately force some sort of arbitrary equality between those who can reshape matter with thougths and those who cannot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html).
Generally, it appears that the powers of this universe don't like an excessive degree of min-maxing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).
So probably spellcasters can't play to their real strength for some reasons.

The Death Knight and the Half-ogre were just thinking too high of themselves, just like V during his soul splice. No "cosmic karma" seems to bother Xykon much, for instance (unless he gets overconfident and sloppy, like in the Soon incident). Even Tsukiko plays better than V, and she's a goddamned mystic theurge.

[Undead Prince]

Indeed, optimizing in a real world context can be ridiculous. Mega cheese builds require levels in so many classes that it's not even funny. In addition, some of the most powerful ones, like Ur-Priests, are supposed to come with major social baggage. Tsukio may be powerful, but she's also insane.

In fact, Tsukiko may very well be an Ur-Priest. Notice she never mentioned her god, whereas clerics tend to talk about their deities a lot (Durkon, Malack), and she does have access to splatbooks. A very simple build would go something like Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3 for a 15th level character and access to the spells she's shown to be using.

[Trixie]

Think of it this way- if a wizard who has overspecialized in cold spells is stomped by a white dragon, he hasn't lost because the white dragon was "buffed" he lost because he's not equipped to deal with it.

You're missing the point. Yes, it had some of these buffs "build it". So what? If, in your example, it was not white dragon, but red, who buffed himself to be immune to cold, would you say it wasn't buffed because white dragons are naturally immune? Of course not.


And what nukes are those? How many spells does Xykon have that don't have a risk of not damaging incorporeal creatures, besides Magic Missile?

Let's start with Maximized Energy Drain. Followed by Empowered Energy Drain. We know he can cast both of those, and negative energy both ignores incorporeality and is extra harmful to positive energy beings. There, battle won within two rounds :smallamused:

Really, Soon fought exhausted Xykon and almost empty Redcloak, while both of them grabbed idiot ball that forced them to abandon their most effective tactics that worked flawlessly so far and yet, they almost won. Had Xykon made one Knowledge (Religion) check, he would have stomped them all on his own.


But not a case of "Soon lost the fight with Xykon".

Yes he did. Even with an army of mooks, he failed to kill them of achieve his goals. If not for Miko's intervention, Team Azure would lose totally, not simply big time.

[hamishspence]

You're missing the point. Yes, it had some of these buffs "build it". So what? If, in your example, it was not white dragon, but red, who buffed himself to be immune to cold, would you say it wasn't buffed because white dragons are naturally immune? Of course not.

But, you would say that the white dragon isn't "buffed" though.

Similarly, Soon's not buffed merely because he's naturally incorporeal- but if he was only incorporeal because he'd cast Ghostform on himself, then it would be a "buff".


Let's start with Maximized Energy Drain. Followed by Empowered Energy Drain. We know he can cast both of those, and negative energy both ignores incorporeality and is extra harmful to positive energy beings. There, battle won within two rounds :smallamused:

Really, Soon fought exhausted Xykon and almost empty Redcloak, while both of them grabbed idiot ball that forced them to abandon their most effective tactics that worked flawlessly so far and yet, they almost won. Had Xykon made one Knowledge (Religion) check, he would have stomped them all on his own.

If he'd done that at the start of the fight, yes- but he didn't- and he stated explicitly that he was running out of high level spells by the time Redcloak suggested casting Magic Missile. Not to mention that:


Incorporeality

Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.


So- 50% chance of failure on any Inflict X Wounds spells cast by Redcloak, too- since they do damage.

Spells like Energy Drain don't work on the undead- and until Redcloak told him (by which time he'd used up most of his high level spells) Xykon thought they were undead "ghost-things"

Really though- this thread is supposed to be about Tsukiko's role- maybe this topic should be taken to another thread- perhaps titled:

"Did Xykon and Redcloak act like idiots while fighting Soon?"

[Reverent-One]

If not for Miko's intervention, Team Azure would lose totally, not simply big time.

You mean without Miko's intervention, Team Evil would have lost totally, as both Redcloak and Xykon were nearly dead.

[Trixie]

You mean without Miko's intervention, Team Evil would have lost totally, as both Redcloak and Xykon were nearly dead.

Let's see, what happens had Miko was delayed or runs with Hinjo instead:

:durkon: [as Soon, gloating]: And now, I'll kill you, and instruct the next person who comes here how to destroy phylactery! Slash!

:thog: [horde of goblins at the door] Hi!

:durkon: Oh, crap.

:xykon: [from phylactery] You there! Lackey! Call thing in the darkness!

:mitd: You called?

:xykon: Yup, grab Redcloak's body, which has my thingamabob on the neck, and take it out of the room! And you, lackeys, go find your best cleric!

:mitd: Huh, that ghost thingy here tickles~! [grabs body]

Six days later.

:xykon: Hey, guess who regenerated, Fu Manchu!

:redcloak: And guess who looked up a few spells to own you!

:xykon: Hey, Redcloak, look! He looks funny trying to damage our intact gate with that ghosty sword of his! Heh!

:redcloak: You'll pay for every goblin you killed (and me, incidentally)!

:xykon: In short, prepare to be our b***h, bitch!

:durkon: Oh, crap. Again.

...

Yeah, that looks like a colossal loss to me :smallamused:

[Reverent-One]

Let's see, what happens had Miko was delayed or runs with Hinjo instead:

<Snip>

Yeah, that looks like a colossal loss to me :smallamused:

An interesting point. However you're assuming that if the tower didn't self-destruct that Hinjo and the others would have still run, leaving Xykon free to regernate and come back. Given that up until the tower exploded, they were attempting to return to the throne room, they certainly would have continued to do so. At that point it becomes a question of how long that takes, and if Miko was just delayed or simply not totally crazy, that wouldn't be long at all. You're also assuming that Xykon's capable of speaking loud enough from within the phylactery to be heard from outside the obviously large throne room, which the goblins are under orders not to enter until Redcloack gives the all clear.

[Shale]

You're also assuming the goblins, including those who don't know the ins and outs of lichery, would react to the curbstomping of their leader and his boss the walking nuclear arsenal by not running the #@$! away.

[Undead Prince]

A method of ranking the power of different classes developed on the WoTC boards and currently available on Brilliang Gameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).


That is indeed an excellent and comprehensive ranking system.

However, it is intended as a tool for the DMs to make the game more enjoyable for all players by not letting some players outshine the others too much.

In the OoTS world, assuming it is an independent universe which happens to run on laws similar to DnD, and is not an actual DnD game run by a cosmic DM, there are no forces tilting the balance in favor of weak or inefficient characters. Such characters tend to lose and die. Like Roy. If we start assuming that because one of the PCs is a fighter, everyone else has to be nerfed down to his level, we are simply going against the reality of the comic.

The pathos of this story is entirely different, IMHO. The PCs are weak and sub-optimal, they have no deific protection, but despite being faced with an enemy that is both stronger and smarter (more optimised) they possess the perseverence to stand against terrible odds, and manage to learn lessons and improve themselves even from bitter defeat.

In his speech at the end of the storyarc V displayed understanding of the inefficiency of his actions. Roy, too, has more respect for the forces he is up against. The near-death and actual death experiences these characters had undergone taught them a lot about themselves and about the level of effort they would need to display in order to have a chance of winning. Hopefully they will be more efficient in the future.

{although V seemed to simply go from prideful-stupid to humble-stupid, which is actually worse in my book. One can always hope, though.}


P.S. Also, let's not forget we're discussing Tsukiko here. If she's a "monster", the tier system doesn't really apply to her. If she's an "evil PC", in her party she is already vastly outshined by Xykon and considerably by Redcloak, so the tier system again does not work.

[Trixie]

An interesting point. However you're assuming that if the tower didn't self-destruct that Hinjo and the others would have still run, leaving Xykon free to regernate and come back. Given that up until the tower exploded, they were attempting to return to the throne room, they certainly would have continued to do so.

They were on the walls. Castle was on big square filled with goblins. More were filling the caste by the minute. They would do the same thing - encounter too great resistance and flee.

But, you're raising interesting point as well - without PCs, the ship might have been well sunk and Hinjo captured :smallamused:


At that point it becomes a question of how long that takes, and if Miko was just delayed or simply not totally crazy, that wouldn't be long at all. You're also assuming that Xykon's capable of speaking loud enough from within the phylactery to be heard from outside the obviously large throne room, which the goblins are under orders not to enter until Redcloack gives the all clear.

All it takes is one minute, and Miko would have been swimming in 'goblins. Without armor and weapons. I doubt she would have survived half of what Belkar did.

As for Xykon, he didn't have a problem with that last time he was in it.


You're also assuming the goblins, including those who don't know the ins and outs of lichery, would react to the curbstomping of their leader and his boss the walking nuclear arsenal by not running the #@$! away.

Are we talking about the same guys? Discipline this, tactics that, who, when ordered, go dip themselves in mustard, take cracker, and zergrush guarding monster?

There, case closed :P

[Shhalahr Windrider]

:xykon: [from phylactery] You there! Lackey! Call thing in the darkness!

:mitd: You called?

:xykon: Yup, grab Redcloak's body, which has my thingamabob on the neck, and take it out of the room! And you, lackeys, go find your best cleric!
Wow! He certainly got from way outside the city to the throne room pretty quickly.



That is indeed an excellent and comprehensive ranking system.

However, it is intended as a tool for the DMs to make the game more enjoyable for all players by not letting some players outshine the others too much.
Well, that’s how it’s intended to be used, but I think the ranks themselves do stick with the classes a little bit outside of that.

[Trixie]

Wow! He certainly got from way outside the city to the throne room pretty quickly.

Yesss, writing a long scene how he got there after being alerted by messenger would have added something to my point.

Except, sadly, not :smalltongue:

[Undead Prince]

Well, that’s how it’s intended to be used, but I think the ranks themselves do stick with the classes a little bit outside of that.

So it didn't have any relevance except pointing out the vast difference in power between Wizard and Fighter. As if we didn't know already.

Considering the tier system, I would have had no problem if V, for example, played a lower-tier class - say, a Sorcerer or a Beguiler - but without the stupidity. That would have been more satisfying than seeing the potential of a class squandered so.

BTW, I haven't yet read that entire thread, but the OP there made some mistakes: for instance, Shapechange doesn't give spells or spell-like abilities, therefore his examples with Solar and Black Ethergaunt weren't valid. OFC, the Wizard could Dominate these creatures, but that's a lot harder than just Shapechanging into one. Or, for instance, the inherent weakness of the Archivist as compared to Wizard or Cleric is that he doesn't get any Wizard spells for free, and only gets 2 free Cleric spells per level - this basically leaves his spell list at the mercy of the DM, who can choose which scrolls will be available in the game world.

[Undead Prince]

Are we talking about the same guys? Discipline this, tactics that, who, when ordered, go dip themselves in mustard, take cracker, and zergrush guarding monster?

There, case closed :P

The hobgoblins were certainly a brave bunch. They were also extremely low-level (routinely killed by a single melee strike), and obviously don't possess any magical weaponry. As such, any hobgoblin entering the throne room would have been slaughtered by Soon without any chance of hurting him back. Then, O-Chul's Hold Person would have worn off. With two such powerful enemies, plus the PCs, plus the Hinjo bunch, and themselves without any high-level characters left, the hobgoblins would be in trouble. They might have had numbers and discipline, but no real strength and no leadership. At best, they could drive the Azurites and the PCs into the throne room (O-Chul would probably find a way to tell Hinjo that it's safe), but would have been slaughtered the next day when V and Durkon regained their spells. At worst, their assault would be broken on the same day.

I tend to view the encounter with Soon as a loss for Team Evil. Everything else aside, had it not been for Miko, Xykon and Redcloak would be dead, and Xykon's phylactery would be in the hands of O-Chul instructed by Soon. It was due to the overpowered and unanticipated nature of the encounter, but also to sloppiness on Xykon and Redcloak's part, who failed to coordinate and focus power, and were not treating the entire battle seriously enough.

[Gift Jeraff]

A related question: who do you think captured Tsukiko? I'd say not Miko; Miko would be unlikely to take someone so profoundly evil prisoner. Hinjo maybe? It would need to be a Paladin of at least 11th level, to be able to dust wights when Turning.
Since she has met Miko, Hinjo, O-Chul, and Thanh and did not say anything special, it was probably a generic group of paladins, possibly led by Lien.

[Stmr5000]

Let's see, what happens had Miko was delayed or runs with Hinjo instead:

snipped the speculation

...

Yeah, that looks like a colossal loss to me :smallamused:

Looks like someone is forgetting that Soon could easily kill any goblin that picked up the necklaceabobber. The gate wouldn't have been destroyed. Hinjo and the OotS wouldn't have bailed. They punch their way into the castle with Hinjo, Lien, the recently raised Roy, the refueled Durkon and V, and shatter the necklaceabobber before Xykon respawns. /story.

[The MunchKING]

But a wizard who is at least moderately intelligent... well, as an example let's just say Animate Dead makes better fighters than Roy could ever hope to be, and even a mid-level wizard could have dozens of such lackeys.

Concidering Roy Great Cleaved his way through hordes of "Animate Dead"ed Ogres, I'm going to go with "I don't think so".

[The MunchKING]

Then, O-Chul's Hold Person would have worn off.

The problem was it wasn't a Hold Person but a lich's paralyzing touch. And that's permanent until dispelled.

[Trixie]

As such, any hobgoblin entering the throne room would have been slaughtered by Soon without any chance of hurting him back.

First, that's why I had Xykon send the MitD here. Second, even if Soon can kill them with a single strike, he will kill what, 4 per round? And that's if he doesn't move. All it takes is 20 Hobos to drag the body out of the room before he has a chance to kill them. So, it's doable even without MitD.


Then, O-Chul's Hold Person would have worn off.

Bzzzt! Paralyzing touch is permanent. No cigar here.


With two such powerful enemies, plus the PCs, plus the Hinjo bunch, and themselves without any high-level characters left, the hobgoblins would be in trouble.

One enemy that can't leave the room, and the PCs that would never got there unless Belkar can teleport people? Remember their best idea how to got to the Throne Room? It involved catapults and splatting nameless NPCs. Yeah, that would have worked :P


They might have had numbers and discipline, but no real strength and no leadership.

What. 2 comics earlier, Recloak rides on Mammoth with a Goblin general. And it's probably not the only such officer there, each legion should have one and they had loads of them.


At best, they could drive the Azurites and the PCs into the throne room (O-Chul would probably find a way to tell Hinjo that it's safe), but would have been slaughtered the next day when V and Durkon regained their spells. At worst, their assault would be broken on the same day.

You mean the V that was already on the boat that was about to be sunk with no spells left?

Come one, your scenario has negative plausibility. For PCs to win, you need a huge series of completely impossible deus ex machinas, while all Xykon and Reddy require to win is a few more minutes. No Miko, they win effortlessly.


I tend to view the encounter with Soon as a loss for Team Evil. Everything else aside, had it not been for Miko, Xykon and Redcloak would be dead, and Xykon's phylactery would be in the hands of O-Chul instructed by Soon.

You mean, in the hands of goblins, and their "death" would have lasted a rand total of 10 minutes? If so, I agree.

[Deliverance]

The self-professed goal of Vaarsuvius is more arcane power, and he doesn't have any other hobbies.

Apart from being capable of rearranging the fundamental building blocks of the universe in under 6 seconds, with enough time left to move 30 feet, V is a quite good gardener and has impeccable table manners.

More seriously, I really don't see how you can conclude from the OOTS strip that V doesn't have any other hobbies. Do any of the OOTS members have strips devoting to showing their interest in hobbies? (And which of these would qualify as a hobby more than, say, V's actions against Belkar that weren't based on the proto-brain theory but done for V's personal amusement?).

If not, does that none of the members of OOTS have hobbies or does it mean that the strip focuses on the mission and that is what is shown?

[Deliverance]

First, that's why I had Xykon send the MitD here. Second, even if Soon can kill them with a single strike, he will kill what, 4 per round? And that's if he doesn't move. All it takes is 20 Hobos to drag the body out of the room before he has a chance to kill them. So, it's doable even without MitD.

....assuming hobgoblins who'll bravely attack in the knowledge of certain death after the fall of their leaders and capable of entering the room over the growing mountain of the bodies of their fallen comrades at a rate greater than 4/round or capable of coordinated lifting and moving while they are being cut down.

I am not saying this couldn't happen but like so many other of the arguments on both sides in this discussion it relies on making assumptions about how people would behave under stress and focusing only on the aspects that support one's own position. :smallsmile:



What. 2 comics earlier, Recloak rides on Mammoth with a Goblin general. And it's probably not the only such officer there, each legion should have one and they had loads of them.

In principle there's still the question of chain of command. While the general that rides with Redcloak could be merely the commander of a legion, the way he is introduced (bringing news from the southern front) and the scene after his death strongly suggest that he was either at the top of the military chain of command or very, very, close and not merely one amongst many.

See for instance Redcloak in #466 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html). "How are the men?" and "And the general?". The hobgoblin he is talking about replies to the question about men as meaning the entire army and knows exactly which officer Redcloak is asking about when asking about the general.

As such, based on the available evidence my assumption would be that the army had exactly one general or, if the title was shared with lesser ranks, one general of the army, and this was the old hobgoblin.

We know that the hobgoblins have a strong martial ethos and it is certainly possible that they also have an efficient chain of command that can quickly adjust to changes at the top if they haven't lost too many of their top brass (one of the hardest things to make work in any military). But we don't know that.

In either case, the question of "Just who is in command with our top civilian and military leaders dead or missing in action" should be an interesting one. Would it be every hobgoblin legion for itself with the officers scheming for advancement or would they still be capable of large-scale coordinated actions? Would old grievances break out as some leaders tried to settle scores based on radical changes in strengths of the individual legions or would they rally as a people? :)

In either case, the Azurite military is a spent force that would need time to regroup. An army doesn't break and flee one day after taking massive casualties only to fight again the next. Even assuming a high percentage of survivors amongst the casualties (most casualties in wars aren't deaths) it takes time to integrate them into an effective fighting force and that time it typically measured in weeks or months.

[hamishspence]

The General does make an appearance in one of the bonus strips to DStP- when they are storming one of the forts guarding the routes to Azure City- Blueriver Fort, I think it was.

[Trixie]

If not, does that none of the members of OOTS have hobbies or does it mean that the strip focuses on the mission and that is what is shown?

Oh, they do. Belkar likes cooking, for one :smallwink:


....assuming hobgoblins who'll bravely attack in the knowledge of certain death after the fall of their leaders and capable of entering the room over the growing mountain of the bodies of their fallen comrades at a rate greater than 4/round or capable of coordinated lifting and moving while they are being cut down.

We're talking about guys, who, under orders, serve as snacks, or diffuse avalanches by shouting standing exactly under them. Your point?

Besides, it takes one round of running at best to reach body, then 3-4 of dragging to get it out. That's what, 10-15 casualties? Assuming someone knows Rope Trick, or can throw a lasso, or that ninja Hobbos can beat Soon's spot check, that can be as low as zero.


In principle there's still the question of chain of command. While the general that rides with Redcloak could be merely the commander of a legion, the way he is introduced (bringing news from the southern front) and the scene after his death strongly suggest that he was either at the top of the military chain of command or very, very, close and not merely one amongst many.

Anyway, he is still alive, and probably going to check on his leader very soon. Even if he waits, it's not like Soon can do anything, and trying to raise your fallen leader would be a natural order to give.


As such, based on the available evidence my assumption would be that the army had exactly one general or, if the title was shared with lesser ranks, one general of the army, and this was the old hobgoblin.

So, ok, even if they have one, each legion then does have colonels, captains, majors, etc. That's the point of military - it has a chain of command, and there's always going to be some guy in charge.


In either case, the question of "Just who is in command with our top civilian and military leaders dead or missing in action" should be an interesting one.

Even if Hobbos purposefully do nothing, MitD will eventually wander to check what his buddies are doing, and it's not like goblins or Soon can stop him. One order from Xykon, and the body is safely out, and in a few days a certain very pissed Lich will force them to raise Redcloak, even if he would have to force a 1st level cleric to kill enough Hobbos in order to gain enough XP to cast Raise Dead. A week later, two very pissed villains own Soon. End of story.


Would it be every hobgoblin legion for itself with the officers scheming for advancement or would they still be capable of large-scale coordinated actions? Would old grievances break out as some leaders tried to settle scores based on radical changes in strengths of the individual legions or would they rally as a people? :)

Nope. The general, or their priests, would force them to secure the city first, grudges or no grudges. After all, humans are far more hated, and crushing the remains of demoralized rabble the army turned into should be a pleasure for them.


In either case, the Azurite military is a spent force that would need time to regroup. An army doesn't break and flee one day after taking massive casualties only to fight again the next. Even assuming a high percentage of survivors amongst the casualties (most casualties in wars aren't deaths) it takes time to integrate them into an effective fighting force and that time it typically measured in weeks or months.

Precisely. Which is why all scenarios of PCs, army and Paladins suddenly regrouping and teleporting to the castle which was full of goblins at the time are so inane. The only reason Miko was capable of getting there was because she was imprisoned right next to the throne room.

By the way, if she can hear Lich's voice from well outside the throne room, anyone should be capable of hearing Xykon's orders from the entrance to the throne room. So that point is moot, too.

Another example of Team Evil grabbing idiot ball in the battle is Redcloak's Turn Undead - it managed to stun Soon for a round. Had he kept him stunned, while telling Xykon to use force/negative energy on mooks, Team Evil would have won even with Miko present, but no, he had to concentrate on minimal threat ignoring the only thing that could possibly defeat them.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't know, Redcloak himself ordered anyone to stay away from the throne room, and the hobbos are disciplined.
Assuming the hobbos would get to the throne room, taking away the phylactery would be possible, taking some casulaties.
But it is also possible that the first hobbos killed by soon would fall over the phylactery, thus preventing the hobbos to take it. Because everyone who tried to remove the bodies and take the phylactery would end up as part of the pile.

It is also to be noted that the remaining ootsers decided to retreat only after the castle exploded. Given their level, I'm fairly sure they could have found a way to get into the throne room. Given that they were figthing 1hd mooks, they could have cut a path through the courtyard.
The army surely had some people with a few levels, but wether they could have stopped the order or were in the rigth position to do so is impossible to determine with our knowledge.

[Reverent-One]

We're talking about guys, who, under orders, serve as snacks, or diffuse avalanches by shouting standing exactly under them. Your point?

Which actually hurts your argument, because they're under orders to stay out until red cloak gives the all clear. Guess what's not going to happen anytime soon?


Even if Hobbos purposefully do nothing, MitD will eventually wander to check what his buddies are doing, and it's not like goblins or Soon can stop him. One order from Xykon, and the body is safely out, and in a few days a certain very pissed Lich will force them to raise Redcloak, even if he would have to force a 1st level cleric to kill enough Hobbos in order to gain enough XP to cast Raise Dead. A week later, two very pissed villains own Soon. End of story.

I'd give better odds of the PCs and Azurites finding a way inside, even if it's just Haley sneaking in, before the MiTD wanders in, since who knows how long that could be.


Another example of Team Evil grabbing idiot ball in the battle is Redcloak's Turn Undead - it managed to stun Soon for a round. Had he kept him stunned, while telling Xykon to use force/negative energy on mooks, Team Evil would have won even with Miko present, but no, he had to concentrate on minimal threat ignoring the only thing that could possibly defeat them.

It wasn't the turn attempt on Soon that caused to be stunned, Recloak says "my negative energy didn't affect him directly", it was the popping of the other ghosts that weakened Soon, which is exactly what Redcloak continued to do. So no Idiot Ball there either.

[DeltaEmil]

Which actually hurts your argument, because they're under orders to stay out until red cloak gives the all clear. Guess what's not going to happen anytime soon?After the appearent death of the dark one's prophet and the demise of the lich lord, the next high-ranking member of team evil (which might be the monster in the darkness, even if it's only for a few rounds, the mystic theurge traitor iwth her undeads and her willingness to kill other azurites, or any other hobgoblin) will assume command, and go on with business (become the new wearer of the crimson mantle, obey the orders of the lich lord, comically entertain the appearently hideous creature, enslave and kill all humans etc.)

I'd give better odds of the PCs and Azurites finding a way inside, even if it's just Haley sneaking in, before the MiTD wanders in, since who knows how long that could be.They wouldn't have made it inside alive against the many thousand hobgoblin warriors who had already overrun the entire city and were swarming in every inch that was still avaiable.

Also, throwing a hook at the amulet to retrieve the phylactery and the sacred artifact of their cruel god will reduce the amounts of dead hobgoblins.

[Reverent-One]

After the appearent death of the dark one's prophet and the demise of the lich lord, the next high-ranking member of team evil (which might be the monster in the darkness, even if it's only for a few rounds, the mystic theurge traitor iwth her undeads and her willingness to kill other azurites, or any other hobgoblin) will assume command, and go on with business (become the new wearer of the crimson mantle, obey the orders of the lich lord, comically entertain the appearently hideous creature, enslave and kill all humans etc.)

The next high ranking goblin would know that the spirit in the Throne room just killed the two individuals on their team more powerful than him, and would likely just make sure no hobgoblins got anywhere close to the throne room.


They wouldn't have made it inside alive against the many thousand hobgoblin warriors who had already overrun the entire city and were swarming in every inch that was still avaiable.

These are PCs in the low- to mid-teen levels, certainly they wouldn't just charge 1000s of goblins, but they could find a way around. If they just waited to V or Durkon to refresh his spells for example, invisibilty or wind walk would solve a lot of problems.


Also, throwing a hook at the amulet to retrieve the phylactery and the sacred artifact of their cruel god will reduce the amounts of dead hobgoblins.

Yes, if they think of it and try it anytime soon instead of just leaving the throne room with the deadly spirit alone for the time being and focusing on moving into their brand new city.

[Trixie]

I don't know, Redcloak himself ordered anyone to stay away from the throne room, and the hobbos are disciplined.

Xykon's shouts will countermand these orders. There.


But it is also possible that the first hobbos killed by soon would fall over the phylactery, thus preventing the hobbos to take it. Because everyone who tried to remove the bodies and take the phylactery would end up as part of the pile.

I gave 3 scenarios with zero casualties, using only resources hobgoblins had.


It is also to be noted that the remaining ootsers decided to retreat only after the castle exploded. Given their level, I'm fairly sure they could have found a way to get into the throne room.

Last time I checked, their "brilliant" plans in comic included using a catapult or pretending they were cheese salesmen. Really, how could those fail? :P


Given that they were figthing 1hd mooks, they could have cut a path through the courtyard.

They were already exhausted, they wouldn't make 10 steps.


The army surely had some people with a few levels, but wether they could have stopped the order or were in the rigth position to do so is impossible to determine with our knowledge.

General and the priests were just outside the caste gate, infinitely closer.


The next high ranking goblin would know that the spirit in the Throne room just killed the two individuals on their team more powerful than him, and would likely just make sure no hobgoblins got anywhere close to the throne room.

Only if he would be stupid enough to ignore Xykon. And, even then, MitD would have not ignored him.


These are PCs in the low- to mid-teen levels, certainly they wouldn't just charge 1000s of goblins, but they could find a way around.

Yes, catapult. They had no real way into the castle.


If they just waited to V or Durkon to refresh his spells for example, invisibilty or wind walk would solve a lot of problems.

The same V who died on a boat that failed to sail without Hinjo, and the same Durkon who died protecting Hinjo's Last Charge to the Throne Room? :smallamused:

I bet MitD would be faster than casters requiring 24 hours to replenish spells.


Yes, if they think of it and try it anytime soon instead of just leaving the throne room with the deadly spirit alone for the time being and focusing on moving into their brand new city.

Again, ignoring Lich's angry shouts and barring the way of creature more powerful than all of them combined into it? Because that's what you're seem to imply.


I'd give better odds of the PCs and Azurites finding a way inside, even if it's just Haley sneaking in, before the MiTD wanders in, since who knows how long that could be.

Through solid wall of hobgoblins blocking the way? How?

Goblin ninjas, meanwhile, were already inside castle, grabbing the phylactery would be a child's play for them.

[AgentofOdd]

:durkon: [as Soon, gloating]: And now, I'll kill you, and instruct the next person who comes here how to destroy phylactery! Slash!

:thog: [horde of goblins at the door] Hi!

<Snip>

Before Soon nearly killed the two villains, Miko killed all the hobgoblins standing outside the entryway link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html). Not to mention in the next comic, just before the possible coup de gras, Xykon spent that moment regretfully telling Redcloak they almost won. There was no time or way for Xykon to give any orders to hobgoblins. In an ideal scenario, with Soon, O-chul (unfrozen with Soon casting Remove Paralysis), and Miko there guarding the door and trying to break the phylactery, I'd say prospects would've been dim for Team Evil. Especially if the Order managed to get into the throne room. Haley might be able to sneak in, and the others can get in by Wind Walking thorough the window (although that's assuming "walking medkit" Durkon could come up with such a strategy... well maybe he could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)).

You're also assuming the goblins, including those who don't know the ins and outs of lichery, would react to the curbstomping of their leader and his boss the walking nuclear arsenal by not running the #@$! away.Are we talking about the same guys? Discipline this, tactics that, who, when ordered, go dip themselves in mustard, take cracker, and zergrush guarding monster?

There, case closed :PNot at all. Redcloak is the only one of the two who has any official rank in the hobgoblin society. I'm sure everyone respects Xykon for his strength, but blindingly obey him? Not a grantee, unless he forces them too, and a defeated voice in a necklace doesn't inspire much awe. Not to mention, Xykon is still a filthy human.

Sure, the hobgoblins will eventually have to secure the throne room if they want to fully own Azure City. But, without Redcloak trying to form a long term settlement in the ruins, the hobs may have to leave before succeeding to not starve. Either way, they're have to bide their time and make plans. Maybe they'd try blowing up the entire room, but that'll take time. Can a phylactery survive a paladin and/or ex-paladin (and possibly most of the order) smacking it for several days?
Goblin ninjas, meanwhile, were already inside castle, grabbing the phylactery would be a child's play for them.Unless everyone remaining inside the throne room is a complete moron, they're going to wear it on their person. When they're not busy smacking that is. Can a ninja steal the necklace of a paranoid paladin without being detected?

In an unrelated topic, may I know who the character in your icon is? It looks familiar, but I can't remember...

[Querzis]

Trixie, they were 3 hobgobelins outside the throne rooms. Thats it, Redcloak and Xykon had no other reinforcement anywhere close.

But guess who else was in the throne room? Maybe a paralyzed paladin named O-chul and an epic level paladin named Soon who had access to lots of spells to free O-chul and make him destroy the phylactery?

After Soon had killed Xykon it would have took one round for Soon to free O-chul and another round for O-chul to destroy the phylactery...thats it. No need for Xykon shouting or ropes or the order of the stick sneaking in the castle, just two rounds and it was over. Stop with your silly scenario already, Team Evil had lost, both Redcloak and Xykon were shown painfully aware of the fact that they had lost. Miko saved Team Evil, theres nothing else to be said about it. Hell, if Miko had not been totally insane she would have still went to the throne room since it was actually her duty, the only difference is that she would have helped Soon instead of destroying the gate for no freaking reason!

[DragonOfUndeath]

if miko wasn't insane she wouldn't have been in jail or Fallen rendering that line of thought inconsequential

[lord_khaine]

Really, i cant see what make Soon any different from Xykon? both of them have a powerfull template that fortify a lot of their weak spots.

In the end Soon was just more powerfull, and as for Xykon not fighting efficient, well neither was Soon, a single Lay on Hands from him should have channeled enough positive energy to turn Xykon to dust.

Also, all Soon would need is a feat like Cleave or combat reflexes, and he could kill Hobgoblings faster than they could enter the room, assuming they would even do it at the command of a strange voice comming from the same room as a murderous ghost.

Also, i dont think its ever mentioned Soon cant leave the throne room, if thats the case then noone else in the city would have had the power to retrive the Phycilarium.

[137beth]

Soon was more powerful in his incorporeal form, which is more powerful than he was alive. Also, Xykon had fought Roy and an army of palidens by the time he faced Soon.

[Trixie]

Before Soon nearly killed the two villains, Miko killed all the hobgoblins standing outside the entryway link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html).

Had you read the thread you'd see the premise is Miko not getting there in time.


(unfrozen with Soon casting Remove Paralysis)

First, any proof Soon is capable of casting it in his current state.

Second, Remove Paralysis works on temporary paralysis. It won't work on Xykon's.


Miko there

Who is still in prison or dead.


others can get in by Wind Walking thorough the window (although that's assuming "walking medkit" Durkon could come up with such a strategy... well maybe he could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)).

And the required level (Durkon was too low then) and prepared spell are going to materialize from where, exactly?


I'm sure everyone respects Xykon for his strength, but blindingly obey him? Not a grantee, unless he forces them too, and a defeated voice in a necklace doesn't inspire much awe. Not to mention, Xykon is still a filthy human.

Except to every goblin officer it was plainly clear it was Xykon that was giving orders. Doubly so for MitD.


Sure, the hobgoblins will eventually have to secure the throne room if they want to fully own Azure City. But, without Redcloak trying to form a long term settlement in the ruins, the hobs may have to leave before succeeding to not starve.

Yes, yes, both MitD and goblin high command will wait for months before they will finally decide to listen to Xykon. Except, not.


Can a phylactery survive a paladin and/or ex-paladin (and possibly most of the order) smacking it for several days?

And they will get there how, exactly? Not going to happen.


Can a ninja steal the necklace of a paranoid paladin without being detected?

From one powerless ghost and one paralyzed paladin? Easy.


In an unrelated topic, may I know who the character in your icon is? It looks familiar, but I can't remember...

Current one?


Trixie, they were 3 hobgobelins outside the throne rooms. Thats it, Redcloak and Xykon had no other reinforcement anywhere close.

Goblin ninjas were already in the castle, four legions and general were just outside/entering it. Yeah, no reinforcements :smalltongue:


But guess who else was in the throne room? Maybe a paralyzed paladin named O-chul and an epic level paladin named Soon who had access to lots of spells to free O-chul and make him destroy the phylactery?

Again, proof. Plus, goblins might be unable to enter the room, but I bet they can snipe damaged paladin before he manages to do anything.


After Soon had killed Xykon it would have took one round for Soon to free O-chul and another round for O-chul to destroy the phylactery...

Yeeees, too bad last time he tried it several rounds of powerattacking did nothing.

Plus, I already mentioned Soon does not have any spells capable of breaking it.


Hell, if Miko had not been totally insane she would have still went to the throne room since it was actually her duty

And would have ended gutting other paladins or being the target of paralysis/forcecage. In short, not.


In the end Soon was just more powerfull, and as for Xykon not fighting efficient, well neither was Soon, a single Lay on Hands from him should have channeled enough positive energy to turn Xykon to dust.

Seeing how "liked" he was, he might have had negative Cha, so no LoH.

Soon isn't idiot, if he had it, he would have used it.


Also, all Soon would need is a feat like Cleave or combat reflexes, and he could kill Hobgoblings faster than they could enter the room, assuming they would even do it at the command of a strange voice comming from the same room as a murderous ghost.

Except both only work in the direct vicinity. Essentially, they're not different from his full attack in any significant way.


Also, i dont think its ever mentioned Soon cant leave the throne room, if thats the case then noone else in the city would have had the power to retrive the Phycilarium.

Yes it was. It was the only reason paladins were sent here: that's the only place in the city where their spirits could re-materialize.

Really, I'm willing to concede the point on good arguments, but proposing such deus ex machinas as PCs suddenly being able to teleport or casting 9th level spells is not helping your case any, more, damaging it, as if even such improbable event does not stop Xykon, believable ones have no chance in hell of doing it.

Sadly, none of these scenarios comes even close to stopping Team Evil, and sadly, Miko remains the only factor that stopped them. Had she been there with O'Chul, Dark One would already had control of the gates.

[hamishspence]

From one powerless ghost and one paralyzed paladin? Easy.

Where are you getting the idea that Soon would be powerless after running out of Smite Evils? It's quite normal for incorporeal creatures to have a damaging touch attack.



Yeeees, too bad last time he tried it several rounds of powerattacking did nothing.

Given how panicked Xykon was when Soon told him that- it's entirely possible that all those protections were put on after the incident in the throne room- Xykon ensuring that if something like that ever happens again, he won't be in as much danger.

[Kish]

Where are you getting the idea that Soon would be powerless after running out of Smite Evils? It's quite normal for incorporeal creatures to have a damaging touch attack.
For that matter, Soon already hadn't been using Smite Evil every time he attacked.

[Reverent-One]

Soon isn't idiot, if he had it, he would have used it.

Similarly, Xykon and Redcloak aren't idiots, and they thought they were doomed.


Really, I'm willing to concede the point on good arguments, but proposing such deus ex machinas as PCs suddenly being able to teleport or casting 9th level spells is not helping your case any, more, damaging it, as if even such improbable event does not stop Xykon, believable ones have no chance in hell of doing it.

And few, if any, people are putting forward such deus ex machinas.

Also, if you look at the description of a Lich's paralyzing touch, you'll see this:


Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

[AgentofOdd]

Had you read the thread you'd see the premise is Miko not getting there in time.My mistake, but the situation is still, Xykon doesn't have time to tell the hobgoblins to bring in the MitD before getting ko'ed.
First, any proof Soon is capable of casting it in his current state.

Second, Remove Paralysis works on temporary paralysis. It won't work on Xykon's.Ghosts keep their spellcasting abilities.

:vaarsuvius:: I would just like to point out that my ghost will be both angry and vengeful, and will retain all of my spellcasting powers. (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html)

Remove Paralysis (and Break Enchantment and Remove Curse) will work link (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich) (details under "Paralyzing Touch").
And the required level (Durkon was too low then) and prepared spell are going to materialize from where, exactly?You know this for sure how exactly? We saw him cast 7th level spells after the battle, and one only needs two levels to go from casting 6th level cleric spells to 7th. If there is actual proof though, I'll concede this part. As for how he'd get the spell... have him grab it the next day.
Except to every goblin officer it was plainly clear it was Xykon that was giving orders. Doubly so for MitD.Yes, and they might obey him cause of that. Or, they could assume Xykon was merely a dangerous (and filthy human) tool of the Great Leader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), and ignore him when he's no longer useful.
From one powerless ghost and one paralyzed paladin? Easy.That's assuming Soon doesn't have the spell to free O-chul. And that imo is a bit iffy. Also, without O-chul, Soon is going to be hovering right next to the thing, or have it inside his incorporeal self.
Current one?They're not the same character? In that case, tell me both of them please.

[Darthteej]

A lot of arguments here seem to base themselves off the idea that the Oathspirits are gone for good once they've been "rebuked". I think that it's too unlikely if the defense would only work once, it just screams of an irresponsible lack of foresight, although... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

[lord_khaine]

Seeing how "liked" he was, he might have had negative Cha, so no LoH.

Soon isn't idiot, if he had it, he would have used it.

Notice how "liked" Miko was, she still had a very high Cha, to be able to heal as much as she did.

Also, Xykon fought an entire room full of paladins, none were smart enough to try and LoH him to death.


From one powerless ghost and one paralyzed paladin? Easy.


Soon is everything but powerless, in the battle against RC and Xykon he did not need to use Smite attacks to harm them.

Also, when Xykon was flying away he said it was the destruction of the gate the preventet him from flying after him and finishing the job, not being bound to a singel place.

[Trixie]

A lot of arguments here seem to base themselves off the idea that the Oathspirits are gone for good once they've been "rebuked". I think that it's too unlikely if the defense would only work once, it just screams of an irresponsible lack of foresight, although... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

Well... It's not exactly the lack of forethought. It might be design. If someone's strong enough to take the entire city, kill all paladins, kill oathspirits and occupy throne room then them appearing for the second time won't change anything.

Though, if they appeared again, why they weren't mentioned, even as a source of XP?


Ghosts keep their spellcasting abilities.

Except they're very specifically not ghosts. Come to think of it, did Soon used any paladin ability, except for smite evil, which might just be a build-in feature of positive-energy undead? Maybe the template took away all paladin class features from him?


Remove Paralysis (and Break Enchantment and Remove Curse) will work link (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich) (details under "Paralyzing Touch").

Ok. I've looked only under Remove Paralysis and RAW, it shouldn't do it. The Lich entry says otherwise, though. Still, let me point out that Soon has a mere three second level spell slots he can prepare, and a lot more spells known. He is not a wizard. Why would someone immune to paralysis have a spell curing it prepared?


You know this for sure how exactly? We saw him cast 7th level spells after the battle, and one only needs two levels to go from casting 6th level cleric spells to 7th. If there is actual proof though, I'll concede this part.

He seemed to suggest (when we see first WW usage) that he just got the spell. More than a half year later.


As for how he'd get the spell... have him grab it the next day.

I doubt goblins/MitD would have waited that long. And this assumes they will survive the night, and that he will find a place where he can meditate, burn incense and chant without attracting attention.


Yes, and they might obey him cause of that. Or, they could assume Xykon was merely a dangerous (and filthy human) tool of the Great Leader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), and ignore him when he's no longer useful.

Once he says only he can save their leader... :smallwink:


That's assuming Soon doesn't have the spell to free O-chul. And that imo is a bit iffy. Also, without O-chul, Soon is going to be hovering right next to the thing, or have it inside his incorporeal self.

Which won't help matters any when ninja he can't see grabs it, when MitD walks through his blows saying 'tickles!' or when someone uses Animate Rope, a first level spell on it.


They're not the same character? In that case, tell me both of them please.

Good eye, they're indeed the same :smalltongue:


Similarly, Xykon and Redcloak aren't idiots, and they thought they were doomed.

Once Xykon calmed, he would have changed his outlook. Especially given the fact only his allies had easy access to room.

[AgentofOdd]

Except they're very specifically not ghosts. Come to think of it, did Soon used any paladin ability, except for smite evil, which might just be a build-in feature of positive-energy undead? Maybe the template took away all paladin class features from him?Possible, we should agree to disagree on this.
Ok. I've looked only under Remove Paralysis and RAW, it shouldn't do it. The Lich entry says otherwise, though. Still, let me point out that Soon has a mere three second level spell slots he can prepare, and a lot more spells known. He is not a wizard. Why would someone immune to paralysis have a spell curing it prepared?Like I mentioned, there are spells in the 3rd and 4th slots that'll also work, Also, if I may nitpick, Soon would actually have at least 4 second level spells due to the rules on bonus spells. In total at least 10 slots for him to have a spell to free O-chul. As for why? Well, the Ghost Martyrs are triggered when all paladins in the room are dead, or incapacitated. It might not be a bad idea to have restoring spells like Remove Paralysis, Neutralize Poison, and Restoration to unfreeze anyone who's suffering from the ailments.
He seemed to suggest (when we see first WW usage) that he just got the spell. More than a half year later.The great thing about Clerics is that they can automatically access almost any spells as soon as they gain the necessary spell slot (they only can't cast spells that go against their alignment). The benefit of getting everything prepackaged by your god I guess.
I doubt goblins/MitD would have waited that long. And this assumes they will survive the night, and that he will find a place where he can meditate, burn incense and chant without attracting attention.Why not? For the goblins there would be no pressing reason to enter a room with an epic level paladin trapped inside. As for the MitD... he's a insecure child, he's not going to take initiative. Also, a Paladin (and all core spellcasters) only need to meditate the candles and stuff aren't required.
Once he says only he can save their leader... :smallwink:At that point the Hobgoblin leader is dead...
Which won't help matters any when ninja he can't see grabs it, when MitD walks through his blows saying 'tickles!' or when someone uses Animate Rope, a first level spell on it.Maybe the ninja will suceed if it's dark. If I were Soon, I'd be madly swinging that sword all night so no one can approach him or the phylactery, but who knows? The MitD is a child, not to mention the hobgoblins probably see him as useless since that's how Redcloak treats him. No one will call on him for help, and I rather doubt he'll try his own rescue. As for Animate Rope, might work, depending on how the necklace is tied around Redcloak's neck. Of course, I think the hobgoblins will try to save the Crimson Mantle instead of the phylactery which they would know nothing about. And Soon would probably keep smashing any regenerating parts so Xykon can't talk.
Good eye, they're indeed the same :smalltongue:I've no idea why you're being coy with my question... But, if you don't wish to answer that's fine.

I hope you'll agree, at the very least if Soon is able to cast an unfreezing spell on O-chul, Xykon is finished. Things get iffy if he needs to regain spells, and even more so if he doesn't have spell slots anymore.

[Nimrod's Son]

Xykon's shouts will countermand these orders. There.
The shouts of their Supreme Leader's odd talking skull (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) will countermand the orders of the Supreme Leader himself? If you say so.


Yeeees, too bad last time he tried it several rounds of powerattacking did nothing.
Note Xykon's face in panel three. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that all the abjurations on the phylactery were put there specifically because Soon had scared the bejaysus out of Xykon there. Xykon panicked like mad when all Soon had threatened him with was "the next human to enter the room". Looks to me like it wouldn't have taken much more than a good solid swing of a katana.

Note also panel eight in that same strip. Both Xykon and Redcloak know they're done for. Only Miko changed that; Team Evil were utterly defeated by that point and they knew it. Your hypothetical fanfiction really doesn't gel with what we directly see happening.

[silversnowe]

For those of you who have read the prequel books, is Redcloak necessary to do whatever they need to do with the gates?

If so...
If Soon even just kills Redcloak and Xykon's phylactery survives, I highly doubt that there are any clerics high level enough in an army full of low level mooks to resurrect him and we don't know if Tsukiko can either. (According to the Class and Level Geekery Thread, she's at least Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 8, which would give her level 11 Cleric spells, and she'd have to be at least level 13 to resurrect. Whether or not she has those two more levels aren't clear.)

[Shale]

Not Redcloak in particular, but...

The ritual to manipulate the Gates has two halves - one for an arcane caster and one for a divine caster. The only one who currently knows the divine half is Redcloak; he wrote down the arcane half for Xykon. Redcloak learned the ritual when he put on the Crimson Mantle, and any other goblin who wears it will gain that knowledge as well. So Xykon needs the cooperation of a goblin wearing the Crimson Mantle, but that wouldn't necessarily have to be Redcloak. It might be tough to find another goblin cleric willing to follow him, though, especially if they'd lost the Battle of Azure City.

[lord_khaine]

Except they're very specifically not ghosts. Come to think of it, did Soon used any paladin ability, except for smite evil, which might just be a build-in feature of positive-energy undead? Maybe the template took away all paladin class features from him?


Unlikely, do considder how few templates there is that removes class abilities?

Also, the only ability that might have been smarter for him to use, instead of just Smiting, would have been LoH, and none of the other paladins was smart enough to use that.


Which won't help matters any when ninja he can't see grabs it, when MitD walks through his blows saying 'tickles!' or when someone uses Animate Rope, a first level spell on it.

Thats assuming a ninja could get past Soon though, i find it very likely that he has darkvision, and in that they cant sneak past him.

Also, he has detect evil to help look for any would-be sneak guys.

And finaly, Soon is epic, i find it very likely as well that he could either hurt or scare MitD out of the room.

[137beth]

I'd say just about anyone could scare MitD, even if Soon couldn't hurt him.

[DragonOfUndeath]

any Intimidation would have to be done before Soon attacks otherwise MITD would have a massive circumstance bonus for knowing it is stronger

[lord_khaine]

any Intimidation would have to be done before Soon attacks otherwise MITD would have a massive circumstance bonus for knowing it is stronger


That would only be the case if MitD actualy were stronger, we really cant know that.

[DragonOfUndeath]

you think Soon is stronger than MITD? after fighting of Redcloak and Xykon? no chance

[Shale]

Could MitD even affect Soon? Punching a ghost doesn't really do much.

[hamishspence]

if he has DR/Magic (or, by some interpretations, DR/Epic), yes- since his natural weapons would count as magic weapons or epic weapons, and normally, epic weapons are still magic weapons.

To damage an incorporeal creature in melee, you generally need magic weapons- and even then, have only a 50% chance of any one strike injuring the target.

Of course, if the monster has some other form of DR (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, metal, alignment, or DR/-) it will be incapable of harming Soon with melee strikes.

He might not have DR- but his extreme resistance to Miko's attacks "It tickles!" suggests he's got something.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

if he has DR/Magic (or, by some interpretations, DR/Epic), yes- since his natural weapons would count as magic weapons or epic weapons, and normally, epic weapons are still magic weapons.
The phrase is “treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction” (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) (emphasis mine). Overcoming incorporeality is another matter.

[hamishspence]

The most recent version of incorporeality (Rules Compendium, which explicitly states that its own rules take precedence over core) states that incorporeal creatures can be harmed by:

"other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons and creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities"

So- it does work. Since the SRD is sometimes outdated.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Ah, yes. The must-be-paid-for errata.

Yeah, I never really went in for that. :smallyuk:

[hamishspence]

Nobody has to have it- but if they describe rules without it, there's always the chance that some of those rules will be, in a sense "wrong".

Such as the temperature rules- which were summarized in DMG, described in more detail in Frostburn and Sandstorm, then the rules from those two books put into Rules Compendium.

[Stmr5000]

And the required level (Durkon was too low then) and prepared spell are going to materialize from where, exactly?





{{scrubbed}}. You claim that Durkon did not have the spell in question, yet here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) it is. Not enough? Maybe he lost levels to an unmentioned level drain in the meantime? Oh look, here it is again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) Right before the events in question.

{{scrubbed}}

[AgentofOdd]

{{scrubbed}} You claim that Durkon did not have the spell in question, yet here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) it is. Not enough? Maybe he lost levels to an unmentioned level drain in the meantime? Oh look, here it is again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) Right before the events in question.

{{scrubbed}} Ahem... the spell in question was Wind Walk, not Thor's Might.

[Gift Jeraff]

However, the point still stands that since he cast 7th level spells before the Battle of Azure City (Control Weather), he thus had Wind Walk (a 6th level spell) during the battle. And no amount of fan-fiction where Soon loses his paladin abilities upon gaining his special template can deny that.

[AgentofOdd]

He would not have had Wind Walk during the battle... I mean why would he? Durkon was there to fight, not run. True, he was capable of casting it then (thanks for reminding me of control weather), but he would've needed ask for it the next day.

[Gift Jeraff]

The odds of Durkon having prepared it that day would be the same as the MitD realizing he needs to help his friends, finding his way to the throne room, and grabbing the phylactery and Redcloak all within a day so he could get there before the heroes do, I'd reckon. :smallcool:

[pjackson]

First, that's why I had Xykon send the MitD here. Second, even if Soon can kill them with a single strike, he will kill what, 4 per round? And that's if he doesn't move. All it takes is 20 Hobos to drag the body out of the room before he has a chance to kill them. So, it's doable even without MitD.


4 normal attacks + 1 AoO (moving away with the body), possibly doubled if he has Cleave.
Anyway Soon will have a decent untrained Intimidate check - his Charisma is decent - "touch the body and you die" - backed up with killing the first 2 at least. 20 Hoobos would be unlikely to be enough.



One enemy that can't leave the room,


We do not know that for certain.



Come one, your scenario has negative plausibility. For PCs to win, you need a huge series of completely impossible deus ex machinas, while all Xykon and Reddy require to win is a few more minutes. No Miko, they win effortlessly.


No Miko and Xykon and Redcloak die the next round. Redcloak could not act and Xykon obvious thought he was too badly injured to afford to give Soon an AoO (or he would have attempted to fly away earlier). And the Hobbos had been ordered to stay out. They also did not know about the phylactery.
So Soon guards the bodies for a day, killing any hobbos who enter the room, prays for Remove Paralysis, cures O'Chul and Xykon isn't coming back.


Regarding the use of Energy Drain and other negative energy attacks vs Soon - he is capable of casting Death Ward giving himself immunity to all negative energy affects for a while, easily long enough for the whole fight.

[Stmr5000]

Ahem... the spell in question was Wind Walk, not Thor's Might.

Considering Durkon had cast Heal, a spell with the same level as Wind Walk, at least once before, still invalid.

Apologies for my confusion, the strip posted had involved Thor's might, so I thought that is what was being referred to.

[AgentofOdd]

Ah, thanks for the info. Healing spells with zero special effects all start to blur after awhile. :smallsmile:

[Gandariel]

I think the most probable scenario (without Miko) would be:

- Soon kills both redcloak and Xykon.
- if he has Remove paralisys, he uses it on O-Chul, who immediately start smacking the phylatchery (or whatever it's called)
-even if he doesn't have that spell, Soon is still the Epic Ghost-Marthyr Paladin who had just easily killed both their only high level characters (not many knew about Tsukiko then, and i think they consider the Mitd more of a.. strange pet)

so Soon would make an intimidate check and scare every goblin around.
(Having just killed your Supreme Leader and an epic Lich gives a good circumstance bonus, y'know?)

and then?
actually it's a matter of time...
since the hobgoblins would have won the battle anyway, many of them would have eventually reached the throne room.
Oh, and NO ONE in the OotS would know anything about the battle, so they would have no reason to go there.
Maybe Hinjo would tell them about it, but Hinjo, seeing the city already taken and a lot of goblins storming in the throne room would probably think the battle's lost, and would retreat to the ship.

So, eventually, a horde of hobgoblins would have entered the room, and even though they wouldn't be able to damage Soon they would get phylatchery and dead Redcloak.
i don't actually know if there are hobgoblins with caster level enough to resurrect Redcloak, but maybe Xykon could have used Wish to resurrect him...
Or just use tsukiko for the ritual, for what matters
Interestingly, Redcloak wouldn't have been there when they tried to sink the boat, so they would have easily held position until Haley and belkar arrived (with dead Roy)
they would have safely gone away, resurrected Roy, and in a couple of weeks Xykon and Redloak would have taken control of the gate; unless the OOts tried an ambush, but that's SOO much speculation

[Kish]

Oh, and NO ONE in the OotS would know anything about the battle, so they would have no reason to go there.

Come (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)?

[AgentofOdd]

Oh, and NO ONE in the OotS would know anything about the battle, so they would have no reason to go there.
Maybe Hinjo would tell them about it, but Hinjo, seeing the city already taken and a lot of goblins storming in the throne room would probably think the battle's lost, and would retreat to the ship.Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) at least saw Xykon entering the tower. A few strips later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), Haley is thinking up a way to get into the tower and prevent Xykon was accessing the gate. Had the gate not exploded, the Order plus Hinjo would've gotten there eventually.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Maybe Hinjo would tell them about it, but Hinjo, seeing the city already taken and a lot of goblins storming in the throne room would probably think the battle's lost, and would retreat to the ship.
Really? Even after the gate was destroyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html), Haley had to convince Hinjo to retreat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html)

It’s up for grabs if Haley would have been as willing to retreat at that moment if the gate were still in play, given the stakes.

[Gandariel]

sorry for my bad wording...

i mean, no one in the Oots would know the result of the battle.


and... the order would have gotten there, eventually... how exactly? through a couple thousand hobgoblins?

ow, and another thing... when this scene occurred, the battle was almost already over http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

and here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Haley suggests retreat because they've LOST and there's NOTHING MORE THAT THEY CAN POSSIBLY DO. (haley doesn't even mention the exploded gate)
so they escape, period




So, my point is.

Seeing the battle already lost (explosion or no explosion) Haley suggests escaping and they all do. (as it actually happened)

[Querzis]

sorry for my bad wording...

i mean, no one in the Oots would know the result of the battle.


and... the order would have gotten there, eventually... how exactly? through a couple thousand hobgoblins?

ow, and another thing... when this scene occurred, the battle was almost already over http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

and here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Haley suggests retreat because they've LOST and there's NOTHING MORE THAT THEY CAN POSSIBLY DO. (haley doesn't even mention the exploded gate)
so they escape, period




So, my point is.

Seeing the battle already lost (explosion or no explosion) Haley suggests escaping and they all do. (as it actually happened)

You really dont get it, Haley said that while watching the exploding castle. The fact that they dont know Soon won against Xykon and Redcloak and think the battle is lost is EXACTLY why they would have went there as soon as possible. If Xykon and Redcloak get hold of the gate then the world will be destroyed and running away is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. Whats the freaking point of running away when, as far as they know, Xykon and Redcloak can destroy the world like an hour after getting a gate. They can run away in that strip precisely because the gate is blown up and therefore, the fact that Xykon won doesnt matter. They had lost the battle already in that strip too: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html but they obviously werent thinking about running away. Look, its pretty simple: if they think Soon won then they should get to the gate. If they think Xykon and Redcloak won then they should get to the gate even faster!

As for how they could have went there...are you serious? They are level 13 adventurers. How did Belkar and Haley get to Roy corpse? By sneaking. How did Elan and Durkon went to the boat? By fighting. Both are not that hard for level 13 adventurers, even when so many hobgobelins stand in your way. Especially when you got the ruler of the castle with you who definitly know all the secret of it. Beside, AC still had troops in the castle, the battle between the humans and hobgobelins wasnt finished when Nale escaped. Even if we dont take the Order into consideration, what make you think an AC soldier woudnt have showed up?

Anyway, all of this is totally pointless. There is almost no templates that remove class ability and we actually saw Soon use smite evil so the idea that he woudnt have been able to cast spell is just totally ridiculous. I cant think of a single template that remove your spells but not your class abilities (which he obviously still had)! Paladin got no less then three spells to remove paralysis and Soon knew a Lich was coming so why the hell would he not prepare one of his three spells to remove paralysis? Its not like pally got a big spell list anyway, he doesnt have anything better to take.

[Souhiro]

Well, the thing is precisely the point: "There is no I in a Team" but in team evil, there is: Tsukiko mindlessly loves Xykon but hates redcloak. Xykon just abuse from Redcloak and Tsukiko, and Redcloak despises them all. They can work as a team... or not. Belkar would jump to defend his comrades before Redcloak would lift a finger to protect a defeated -and utterly useless- Xykon.

[Gandariel]

Even if we dont take the Order into consideration, what make you think an AC soldier woudnt have showed up?

hmm, i don't know... maybe... the fact that there were HOBGOBLINS behind the door of the throne room, and probably more would have come?
more would have arrived, and eventually they would all have charged into the room, taken bodies and phylatchery and escaped.
All of this SURELY before the Oots come up with a plan to get to the throne room:
notice that the Oots are far from the throne room at the time, and after coming up with a plan (which takes time) they would probably have to sneak past many hobgoblins, and so not running at their top speed.
no, it's almost sure that 100 hobgoblins would arrive at the throne room before the Oots.

(and by the way, remember that Durkon has almost finished his spells)



and anyway, look at the first panel http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html


how many humans do you think there are?

[lord_khaine]

yes, but in that case Soon would just have had to kill 100 hobgoblings, if he stands in the door he could have killed them faster than they could enter, and he could quickly bury the amulet under a mountain of hobgobling corpses.

[Gandariel]

yes, but in that case Soon would just have had to kill 100 hobgoblings, if he stands in the door he could have killed them faster than they could enter, and he could quickly bury the amulet under a mountain of hobgobling corpses.


no, i mean, the hobgoblins stand outside the door, gather many of them, and then suddenly open it and run in...

but i guess since Soon is incorporeal he can pass through the door...
anyway, just have some other goblins (preferrably ninjas) climb the wall while Soon is occupied (and can't see them since they're inside the throne room and Soon is outside slaying goblins)

[Stmr5000]

Can we just agree that Tsukiko could probably take the order on even footing.

[Lamech]

Tsukiko can't take the order on even footing. Assuming she has room to fly she can pretty much ignore, Elan, Belkar, and Roy. Haley is clearly not a match for her either. Since I haven't seen any spells from Durkon other than lighting that actually blast, I'm assuming Tsukiko could simply float out of Durkons range as well.

V on the other hand could deal with Tsukiko with a gasping hand. Although if she managed a sneak attack, V's low AC coupled with attacks from wights, would do a number on V's ability to attack.

On the battle for the throne room. I highly doubt the order would have forced their way in quick enough. If the MitD arives the order would be forced to run. And don't forget Tsukiko was still around to play. As I said above, the order sans V is in trouble.

[Querzis]

hmm, i don't know... maybe... the fact that there were HOBGOBLINS behind the door of the throne room, and probably more would have come?
more would have arrived, and eventually they would all have charged into the room, taken bodies and phylatchery and escaped.
All of this SURELY before the Oots come up with a plan to get to the throne room:
notice that the Oots are far from the throne room at the time, and after coming up with a plan (which takes time) they would probably have to sneak past many hobgoblins, and so not running at their top speed.
no, it's almost sure that 100 hobgoblins would arrive at the throne room before the Oots.

(and by the way, remember that Durkon has almost finished his spells)



and anyway, look at the first panel http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html


how many humans do you think there are?

Yeah I love how you just took one minor sentence in my whole argument and based your whole defense against it. Anyway, for your whole 100 hobgobelins plan, even assuming Soon cant just free O-chul, that Soon cant leave the throne room to slaughter them all, that the hobgobelins would even do any of this just because Redcloak necklace tell them too, that an epic level paladin cant just easely intimidate the hell out of them and make them go cry to their mommy, that Soon cant actually just handle all these hobbos by just standing in front of the only door and making a barricade of hobgobelins corpse which is assuming a lot (and I disagree with absolutely all of these points anyway) so even assuming all that:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html They specifically say that all the highest level spellcaster are in the castle and, once again, Nale had to fight two humans and one hobgobelins to free his minions in the prison so its obvious the battle is still going on in the castle, the number of hobgobelins in the courtyard is totally and utterly irrelevant. Its the castle, the last line of defense, the freaking prison guard was still at his post when Nale made his escape! So yeah, what are the chance of Soon getting help from a human soldier? If he can leave the throne room its pretty much 100% since he can just go find the nearest soldier and protect him while killing all the hobbos that stand in his way. If he cant leave the throne room then I agree that the chance are slim since AC soldiers dont know theres anything special about the throne room while the hobbos does. But that wasnt my main point so I really dont get why it matter. You still havent answered anything else.

By the way, Roy corpse and the dock were just as far from them as the castle was, if not further. So what are the chance the OOTS will get to the castle? Once again pretty much 100%, they have no choice, they cant do anything else then go there and they are much more competent then any hobbos in the entire army.

Edit:
anyway, just have some other goblins (preferrably ninjas) climb the wall while Soon is occupied (and can't see them since they're inside the throne room and Soon is outside slaying goblins)

Yeah so once again: epic level paladin. The idea that low-level hobgobelins can sneak past an epic level paladin is totally ridiculous, it doesnt even matter if Soon is 40 feets away from them.

[DeltaEmil]

Paladins only get 2 skill points per level, and spot and listen are cross-class skills for them.

Beating Soon in close-combat might be impossible for anybody in the world, but sneaking by and stealing the phylactery and the sacred artifact of their dark god isn't that hard for a bunch of mediocre goblinoid ninjas.

[Querzis]

Paladins only get 2 skill points per level, and spot and listen are cross-class skills for them.

Beating Soon in close-combat might be impossible for anybody in the world, but sneaking by and stealing the phylactery and the sacred artifact of their dark god isn't that hard for a bunch of mediocre goblinoid ninjas.

2+INT and he was an epic level paladin leading an entire order of paladin so his INT had to be pretty good. Even assuming he only took like 1 point in either spot or listen every two level, he would still have much higher spot or listen then a very low-level goblin ninja would have sneak.

Anyway he got detect evil and I was more talking about that then his skill points. Detect evil can last in one spot for 10 minutes/level so he really doesnt even need to see or hear them to detect them.

And once again, taking one sentence in my whole argument and basing your whole defense against it doesnt bring much to the discussion.

[DeltaEmil]

{scrubbed}

[AgentofOdd]

Paladins only get 2 skill points per level, and spot and listen are cross-class skills for them.

Beating Soon in close-combat might be impossible for anybody in the world, but sneaking by and stealing the phylactery and the sacred artifact of their dark god isn't that hard for a bunch of mediocre goblinoid ninjas.In this scenario, Soon is going to be right next to the Redcloak's corpse (if not engulfing it in his incorporeal self). How would one not defeat him in close combat, yet still get close enough to steal either objects?

[Lamech]

In this scenario, Soon is going to be right next to the Redcloak's corpse (if not engulfing it in his incorporeal self). How would one not defeat him in close combat, yet still get close enough to steal either objects?
Simple, swarm swarm. Hobgob one walks up to redcloak. Soon presumably has a readied slice and kills the hob. Hobgob number two walks up to redcloak and sticks a laso on redcloak. Soon has already used his readied action, and does nothing. Hobgob three drags out Redcloaks body. Soon kills two, and glares at three. The second best cleric raises Redcloak. A couple weeks later Xykon uses Soon for MM practice. A few more weeks and team evil wins.

[Reverent-One]

Even if the hobgoblins decided to try to get Redcloak out of there and succeeded by avoiding Soon and did so before any of the PCs could get there, do you really think Team Evil has time to wait until Xykon respawns? Worst case, assuming that the PCs can't strike at Team Evil directly while they're weakened by the loss of their big boss, is A)they get into the throne room the hobgoblins are staying clear of and break the gate, or B) Soon cures O-chul and he breaks the gate. There's still no win for Team Evil there.

[Querzis]

{scrubbed}

Thats great. By the way:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Detect_Evil

He need three round to concentrate true...thats it. Once hes done those three rounds which he can do at any time (like two seconds aftter killing Redcloak and O-chul), he can leave the detect evil there for 10 minutes/level. Hes an epic level paladin and even with a 1 you dont automatically fail skill check so hes about as unlikely to fail the concentration check as you are to be right. And I do realize you wont see this but you know, woudnt want people thinking your faulty knowledge of the rules are true (by the way, saying that my arguments are weak and pathetic instead of trying to, you know, counter them really doesnt work.)

By the way, is there actually a template that remove your spells but doesnt remove your special ability like smite evil. Nobody answered me on that. Seriously, even though I like arguing about how Soon could easely guard Redcloak and Xykon until a human come to the throne room, I still really dont see how that discussion is relevant. Once again, there is no reason to believe Soon cant just free O-chul. He knew a lich was coming, if he had access to his spell you really wont make me believe he didnt prepare one of his three spell that can remove a lich paralysis.

[Gandariel]

Yeah I love how you just took one minor sentence in my whole argument and based your whole defense against it. Anyway, for your whole 100 hobgobelins plan, even assuming Soon cant just free O-chul, that Soon cant leave the throne room to slaughter them all, that the hobgobelins would even do any of this just because Redcloak necklace tell them too, that an epic level paladin cant just easely intimidate the hell out of them and make them go cry to their mommy, that Soon cant actually just handle all these hobbos by just standing in front of the only door and making a barricade of hobgobelins corpse which is assuming a lot (and I disagree with absolutely all of these points anyway) so even assuming all that:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html They specifically say that all the highest level spellcaster are in the castle and, once again, Nale had to fight two humans and one hobgobelins to free his minions in the prison so its obvious the battle is still going on in the castle, the number of hobgobelins in the courtyard is totally and utterly irrelevant. Its the castle, the last line of defense, the freaking prison guard was still at his post when Nale made his escape! So yeah, what are the chance of Soon getting help from a human soldier? If he can leave the throne room its pretty much 100% since he can just go find the nearest soldier and protect him while killing all the hobbos that stand in his way. If he cant leave the throne room then I agree that the chance are slim since AC soldiers dont know theres anything special about the throne room while the hobbos does. But that wasnt my main point so I really dont get why it matter. You still havent answered anything else.

By the way, Roy corpse and the dock were just as far from them as the castle was, if not further. So what are the chance the OOTS will get to the castle? Once again pretty much 100%, they have no choice, they cant do anything else then go there and they are much more competent then any hobbos in the entire army.

Edit:

Yeah so once again: epic level paladin. The idea that low-level hobgobelins can sneak past an epic level paladin is totally ridiculous, it doesnt even matter if Soon is 40 feets away from them.

i Started from one of your sentences to build my defence. Now i'm quoting all of your message, so you won't think i'm discriminating your better sentences.

So.
Ok, as i said before Soon can easily Intimidate them... but for how long?
sometime he MUST fail his check, since more and more hobgoblins are coming (and i'm not sure about the rules, but being 100 vs 1 gives a bonus on Intimidate)
Anyway, i don't know how large the door is, if every single goblin start running through it i'm not sure Soon could handle them.

But let's assume he can.
have 10 goblins climb the walls and enter the throne room from the point OPPOSITE the door, and try go sneak and get the phylatchery.

Now Soon can succeed in his spot and listen check (while Intimidating the hobgoblins outside the door) or not.
But let's assume he does.
Soon succeedes, and immediately goes to kill these hobgoblins.
As he does, the 100+hobgoblins next to the door run in the throne room.
it takes Soon 1 round to get there, and at least a couple more to kill them.
Which leaves 3 rounds.
In 3 rounds a LOT of goblins have entered the room and are taking the body

Now do you think Soon can kill them all before they get away of the throne room???


Oh, and anyway, if actually Soon can move out of the throne room you're right, he can easily stand by a human soldier and help him reach the throne room to break the phylatchery.

Sadly, during this time the goblins would have already taken bodies and amulet and left

[Querzis]

i Started from one of your sentences to build my defence. Now i'm quoting all of your message, so you won't think i'm discriminating your better sentences.

So.
Ok, as i said before Soon can easily Intimidate them... but for how long?
sometime he MUST fail his check, since more and more hobgoblins are coming (and i'm not sure about the rules, but being 100 vs 1 gives a bonus on Intimidate)
Anyway, i don't know how large the door is, if every single goblin start running through it i'm not sure Soon could handle them.

He doesnt need to, he just need to stand right next to the door and make a hobgobelin corpse barricade.


But let's assume he can.
have 10 goblins climb the walls and enter the throne room from the point OPPOSITE the door, and try go sneak and get the phylatchery.

Now Soon can succeed in his spot and listen check (while Intimidating the hobgoblins outside the door) or not.
But let's assume he does.

As I already said he doesnt need to do spot or listen check. Detect evil remember?


Soon succeedes, and immediately goes to kill these hobgoblins.
As he does, the 100+hobgoblins next to the door run in the throne room.
it takes Soon 1 round to get there, and at least a couple more to kill them.
Which leaves 3 rounds.
In 3 rounds a LOT of goblins have entered the room and are taking the body

Now do you think Soon can kill them all before they get away of the throne room???

If he can get out of the throne room yes quite easely. He could decimate their entire army (it would take time but he would). If he cant then I would really like you to remember thats it kinda hard to take a body and leave when theres 20 hobgobelins corpse on top of it. The entire throne room would be filled with hobgolins corpse before they get anywhere with that tactic.


Oh, and anyway, if actually Soon can move out of the throne room you're right, he can easily stand by a human soldier and help him reach the throne room to break the phylatchery.

Sadly, during this time the goblins would have already taken bodies and amulet and left

That make no sense. Theres only 3 hobgobelins outside the throne room and theres only one door to the throne room. Soon goes from there and kill every hobgobelins on the way, its not that complicated. I mean geez, not every hobbos in AC will rush to the throne room two seconds after Xykon defeat!

By the way this is still assuming that Soon cant just free O-chul, that the PC wont get the throne room before the hobgobelins even realize what happened, that they would do any of this just because Redcloak necklace tell them to or that human soldiers woudnt get there eventually anyway. And I would really like to once again point out that I really dont even need to go any further then the first one, nobody could find even one template that remove your spells but not your class abilities. If Soon can do smite evil then he can cast spells and if he can cast spells you really wont make me believe he didnt take one of his three spells that can remove paralysis when he knew a lich was coming (its not like pally got a big spell list anyway).

[Gandariel]

He doesnt need to, he just need to stand right next to the door and make a hobgobelin corpse barricade.
hobgoblin corpses? i don't remember Soon killing any hobgoblins.
all the hobgoblins stand OUT of the closed door, and wait until more of them come.
then, they rush in.



As I already said he doesnt need to do spot or listen check. Detect evil remember?
it takes 3 turns to activate it, remember?
and anyway, even if he sees them and goes to kill them it will give time to the hobgoblins in front of the door to come in and grab the amulet



If he can get out of the throne room yes quite easely. He could decimate their entire army (it would take time but he would). If he cant then I would really like you to remember thats it kinda hard to take a body and leave when theres 20 hobgobelins corpse on top of it. The entire throne room would be filled with hobgolins corpse before they get anywhere with that tactic.
again, no.
first of all, if he can get out of the throne room he won't kill any hobgoblin in the room, so there won't be corpses inside it.
Secondly, if he goes around decimating all the hobgoblin army, some other hobgoblins will go in the throne room when, for example, Soon is in another place killing hobgoblins...



That make no sense. Theres only 3 hobgobelins outside the throne room and theres only one door to the throne room. Soon goes from there and kill every hobgobelins on the way, its not that complicated. I mean geez, not every hobbos in AC will rush to the throne room two seconds after Xykon defeat!
this is still assuming that Soon can get out of the throne room, so see above.




By the way this is still assuming that Soon cant just free O-chul, that the PC wont get the throne room before the hobgobelins even realize what happened, that they would do any of this just because Redcloak necklace tell them to or that human soldiers woudnt get there eventually anyway. And I would really like to once again point out that I really dont even need to go any further then the first one, nobody could find even one template that remove your spells but not your class abilities. If Soon can do smite evil then he can cast spells and if he can cast spells you really wont make me believe he didnt take one of his three spells that can remove paralysis when he knew a lich was coming (its not like pally got a big spell list anyway).
he knew a lich was coming? and how exactly did he know it?!?
anyway, even if he could free O-Chul, we still don't know if he would be able to destroy the phylatchey (in time).
who knows, maybe it takes a particular spell or something like that to break it and O-Chul couldn't.
But i can't know that.

and for the last time, no human soldier would get there.
there are still some, yes, but they're actually busy getting killed.

the PCs? it would take much more time than the hobgoblins, since they're nearer.

[AgentofOdd]

If I may go on a tangent, if O-Chul could be unfrozen could he use Smite Evil to strengthen his attack on the phylactery, or would that not work?

[Nimrod's Son]

I really don't see why the hobgoblins would storm in after the phylactery in the first place. They've already pretty much got the city by this point and their supreme leader is dead. They didn't make much of a fuss about resurrecting the previous one; I think if anything they're probably more likely to just pick a new supreme leader and get on with their lives. Heck, they might even smash the phylactery themselves.


If I may go on a tangent, if O-Chul could be unfrozen could he use Smite Evil to strengthen his attack on the phylactery, or would that not work?
Given how panicked Xykon got when Soon said "the next human" will destroy it, it doesn't sound like he'd even need to.

[Shale]

To be fair, the previous one didn't die; he abdicated under implied threat of death, and might even be alive right now as an anonymous member of the legion for all we know. Plus even if Redcloak had killed him, anybody trying to revive the old leader would have faced the wrath of the new, far more powerful, leader - it's unlikely that whoever would take over for Redcloak would feel that way about him.

[Nimrod's Son]

To be fair, the previous one didn't die; he abdicated under implied threat of death, and might even be alive right now as an anonymous member of the legion for all we know.
I completely knew that, but for some reason was talking as if the hobgoblins didn't know Redcloak hadn't really killed their leader. I have no idea why. Um, yeah.


Plus even if Redcloak had killed him, anybody trying to revive the old leader would have faced the wrath of the new, far more powerful, leader - it's unlikely that whoever would take
over for Redcloak would feel that way about him.
They didn't make much of a fuss about the change in leadership though. It doesn't seem like it matters too much about who takes over; they just like to have a structure to their hierarchy. There's little reason to think Redcloak was particularly beloved, and Xykon much less so. I could well believe they'd consider themselves better off without the psychotic lich, and that it's a better use of resources to just find a new leader.

[Gandariel]

argh, stop spoilering =( i've still not read SoD...

[Kish]

Dangerous as it certainly is for you to be debating the actions and motivations of Xykon and Redcloak on this board, there are no spoilers for Start of Darkness between your last two posts in this thread.

[AgentofOdd]

Given how panicked Xykon got when Soon said "the next human" will destroy it, it doesn't sound like he'd even need to.That's true, but the reason I asked was because I wasn't too sure about the rules on smiting.

[Gandariel]

Dangerous as it certainly is for you to be debating the actions and motivations of Xykon and Redcloak on this board, there are no spoilers for Start of Darkness between your last two posts in this thread.

whops, yeah, you're right ^^
i thought they were talking about the succession of the Crimson Mantle
my bad.


and anyway yeah, probably if Soon could deparalyze O-Chul he would have been able to break the amulet.
IF being the key word here

How could Soon know that a lich was coming?

[Detrinex]

Not quite: The bandit sorcerer was able to beat Haley, Elan, AND Varsuvius by herself. Still Tsukiko wouldn't be able to do anything to the ENTIRE PARTY...
BUT if she was fighting with Redcloak and her undead, she would pose a legitimate threat.

Redcloak and Xykon will be preoccupied with the other four/five. The bandit sorcerer was also an encounter when Roy didn't have his starmetal sword or belt , the gang was a few levels lower collectively, Elan didn't have a level in Dashing Swordsman, Haley didn't have her special Icy Bow, and of course, Tsukiko is a theurge, not a sorceress, if that matters.

Unfortunately, Belkar may have kicked the bucket, and there will be a LOT more wights, hobgoblins, bugbears, goblins, ghouls, ghasts, and zombies around. It is likely, however, that Tarquin or Girard will provide some assistance, by way of potions, special arrows, certain magic components, equipment, even a few tricks and traps that the baddies can get lured into.

[silversnowe]

There were exactly three hobgoblins outside the throne room (this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)), and two of them were about to just charge in before Miko arrived (no doubt getting themselves killed within seconds). That would leave one hobgoblin standing outside the throne room when Soon would destroy Xykon's body and kill Redcloak. The fate of Xykon's phylactery would then depend on how smart that one remaining hobgoblin is, and whether or not the Order could get there before the hobgoblin gets help.

[Querzis]

hobgoblin corpses? i don't remember Soon killing any hobgoblins.
all the hobgoblins stand OUT of the closed door, and wait until more of them come.
then, they rush in.

Once again, this is assuming Soon cant just leave the throne room, that the hobgobelins will care about the phylactery at all or that the PC wont get there by the time the hobgobelins gather any sizable force. Anyway, I'm talking about the hobgelins corpse of anyone trying to get the phylactery, if they all rush in to get the phylactery well Soon kill the first 5 one who will fall on top of Redcloak, I did not think it was that complicated to understand.



it takes 3 turns to activate it, remember?
and anyway, even if he sees them and goes to kill them it will give time to the hobgoblins in front of the door to come in and grab the amulet

Three turns is nothing at all, that thing last for hours! He just activate it long before any hobgobelins can even think about sneaking in to go get it. Geez, once again, its not that complicated to understand!



again, no.
first of all, if he can get out of the throne room he won't kill any hobgoblin in the room, so there won't be corpses inside it.

...ok are you even reading my post? I said quite precisely that there would be too many hobgobelins corpses if he cant leave the damn throne room. Its, once again, really not complicated to understand.


Secondly, if he goes around decimating all the hobgoblin army, some other hobgoblins will go in the throne room when, for example, Soon is in another place killing hobgoblins...

SO WHAT? Firstly you vastly overestimate how suicidal the hobgobelins are, if a ghost is destroying their entire army, finding out where the corpse of their leader could be will be on the bottom of their to-do list. I mean do I really have to make you remember that you can become the new leader in their culture by just killing the previous one? Why the hell would they care that much about Redcloak body (and why would they care about the weird talking necklace he got around his neck is even weirder). Secondly, A ROUND LAST 6 SECONDS (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Round#The_Combat_Round)! If he kill 5 hobbos every 6 seconds that means he will kill 50 hobbos every minutes and 3000 hobbos every hour...and somehow you're still thinking the hobgobelins will care about their leader corpse at all during all of this? They wont even know hes dead anyway since the three hobgobelins standing outisde the throne room will be the first Soon kill!!!! How the hell would they go get his corpse when no living hobgobelins even know hes dead????


this is still assuming that Soon can get out of the throne room, so see above.

Its the other way around, you're assuming he cant. He definitly got out of the throne room to talk to Miko before she died. Of course I guess you could argue that this is because the exploded throne was right next to it but honestly, theres absolutely no reason why he shoudnt be able to get out of the throne room. Being restricted to only one room is a pretty lousy defense system for a gate you know, if it would work like that Xykon could just have stood outside the door while throwing magic missiles at a helpless Soon who can't retaliate. Saying that Soon probably cant go too far away from the gate that I can buy but being restricted to one room is just totally stupid.


he knew a lich was coming? and how exactly did he know it?!?

By not being blind and deaf? He knew the name of a paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)that wasnt even born when he died so hes obviously still watching whats going on in his city. I will admit I'm the one assuming something on that one instead of the other way around but Soon actually leaving the defense of his gate to the living and not caring about what happen in the world below despite the fact that it could lead to the destruction of it really doesnt fit the few things we know about his character. Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable and all that. Considering his character, I doubt he even did anything else then watch after the gate in the afterlife. Anyway, remove curse and break enchantment are great all around spells and any paladin who doesnt at least take one of the two is in for some nasty surprises. You really shoudnt go to fight without a break enchantment, even if you're a ghost (though I'll admit that Death Ward would also be a must).


anyway, even if he could free O-Chul, we still don't know if he would be able to destroy the phylatchey (in time).
who knows, maybe it takes a particular spell or something like that to break it and O-Chul couldn't.
But i can't know that.

Both Soon and Xykon (you know, the guy who actually own that phylactery) thought a normal human could destroy it so no...just no.


and for the last time, no human soldier would get there.
there are still some, yes, but they're actually busy getting killed.

Or, considering the fact that the resistance is still strong months after the city was taken, some of them are busy killing. Once again, all the higher level spellcaster were in the castle, the explosion of the castle could very well have done more damage to AC army then to the hobgobelins. I will admit though that I'm also the one assuming on that one but the simple fact that all their highest level spellcaster were in the castle and that Xykon and Redcloak were down for the count mean you really shoudnt underestimate AC soldiers.


the PCs? it would take much more time than the hobgoblins, since they're nearer.

The hobgobelins still have to actually win the battle, take care of the remaining resistance, alert the troops of what happened to their leader (at which point they would just leave him there with the epic level paladin ghost but lets just assume they dont for the sake of argument), make a plan, chose the people who will sacrifice themselves to save their leader corpse and go there. The PC got no such problems and they are level 13. If they hurry up (which they will, destruction of the world and all that) then they can get there three times before the hobbos decide to do something. And once again, this is assuming Soon cant get out of the throne room or free O-chul.

[Gandariel]

Once again, this is assuming Soon cant just leave the throne room, that the hobgobelins will care about the phylactery at all or that the PC wont get there by the time the hobgobelins gather any sizable force. Anyway, I'm talking about the hobgelins corpse of anyone trying to get the phylactery, if they all rush in to get the phylactery well Soon kill the first 5 one who will fall on top of Redcloak, I did not think it was that complicated to understand.
They fall on top of Redcloak? so they actually got to his corpse; so Soon is way far from the entrance. so many goblins can come in (precisely, more than 5/round



Three turns is nothing at all, that thing last for hours! He just activate it long before any hobgobelins can even think about sneaking in to go get it. Geez, once again, its not that complicated to understand!
the goblins would watch... as soon as Soon starts casting they run in



...ok are you even reading my post? I said quite precisely that there would be too many hobgobelins corpses if he cant leave the damn throne room. Its, once again, really not complicated to understand.
you are assuming that a corpse lands exactly where you want it to land.. if Soon is standing between Redcloak's corpse and the hobgobins, the hobgoblins will fall in the same position they were...
oh, and by the way, if Soon stands next to Redcloak the hobgoblins can surround him, making the job of taking the phylatchery easier


SO WHAT? Firstly you vastly overestimate how suicidal the hobgobelins are,
if a ghost is destroying their entire army, finding out where the corpse of their leader could be will be on the bottom of their to-do list. I mean do I really have to make you remember that you can become the new leader in their culture by just killing the previous one? Why the hell would they care that much about Redcloak body (and why would they care about the weird talking necklace he got around his neck is even weirder). Secondly, A ROUND LAST 6 SECONDS (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Round#The_Combat_Round)! If he kill 5 hobbos every 6 seconds that means he will kill 50 hobbos every minutes and 3000 hobbos every hour...and somehow you're still thinking the hobgobelins will care about their leader corpse at all during all of this? They wont even know hes dead anyway since the three hobgobelins standing outisde the throne room will be the first Soon kill!!!! How the hell would they go get his corpse when no living hobgobelins even know hes dead????
No, i'm not overestimating how much suicidal can hobgoblins be.
mainly since...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html




Its the other way around, you're assuming he cant. He definitly got out of the throne room to talk to Miko before she died. Of course I guess you could argue that this is because the exploded throne was right next to it but honestly, theres absolutely no reason why he shoudnt be able to get out of the throne room. Being restricted to only one room is a pretty lousy defense system for a gate you know, if it would work like that Xykon could just have stood outside the door while throwing magic missiles at a helpless Soon who can't retaliate. Saying that Soon probably cant go too far away from the gate that I can buy but being restricted to one room is just totally stupid.
none of us can answer this question, we don't know it.
(oh, and btw, in the scene with Soon talking to Miko, the force that binded Soon to the plane had already gone. His talk with miko is like the moments a charachter takes when mortally wounded to say his last words... Soon himself said he wasn't able to influence anymore the plane


By not being blind and deaf? He knew the name of a paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)that wasnt even born when he died so hes obviously still watching whats going on in his city. I will admit I'm the one assuming something on that one instead of the other way around but Soon actually leaving the defense of his gate to the living and not caring about what happen in the world below despite the fact that it could lead to the destruction of it really doesnt fit the few things we know about his character. Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable and all that. Considering his character, I doubt he even did anything else then watch after the gate in the afterlife. Anyway, remove curse and break enchantment are great all around spells and any paladin who doesnt at least take one of the two is in for some nasty surprises. You really shoudnt go to fight without a break enchantment, even if you're a ghost (though I'll admit that Death Ward would also be a must).
i don't know if Soon CAN actually see what's happening down there.. i think he just knows someday he will be called to battle, that's all.
Anyway this is assuming too, you may well have a point

Both Soon and Xykon (you know, the guy who actually own that phylactery) thought a normal human could destroy it so no...just no.
Yeah, this makes sense; probably O-Chul would be able to crush it


Or, considering the fact that the resistance is still strong months after the city was taken, some of them are busy killing. Once again, all the higher level spellcaster were in the castle, the explosion of the castle could very well have done more damage to AC army then to the hobgobelins.
The Hobgoblins could easily have already broke into the city.
the only thing we can see in the comic is
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html
and it really sounds like a point for me.
Plus, if Redcloak arrived on foot into the throne room, he must have killed every human in his path, thus leaving there only hobgoblins


The hobgobelins still have to actually win the battle, take care of the remaining resistance, alert the troops of what happened to their leader (at which point they would just leave him there with the epic level paladin ghost but lets just assume they dont for the sake of argument), make a plan, chose the people who will sacrifice themselves to save their leader corpse and go there. The PC got no such problems and they are level 13. If they hurry up (which they will, destruction of the world and all that) then they can get there three times before the hobbos decide to do something. And once again, this is assuming Soon cant get out of the throne room or free O-chul.

you can't be sure of that. i can only say that there were hobgoblins there.
1 round after Xykon is killed he shouts at them.
1 round later they run away trying to get more hobgoblins
[...]
they run in
i don't think it woul take much time...
Plus, if the PCs want to get there, they can sneak (difficult, being 5, and particulary Sir Clanksalot) or fight their way. and that would take time too.

didn't want to make separate quotes, answered each of them in bold

[Querzis]

didn't want to make separate quotes, answered each of them in bold

...which make it impossible for me to reply to it directly. Great. Anyway, once again, Soon can just cast his freaking detect evil at any time. Like two seconds after he killed Redcloak and Xykon. As for your two strips showing 'suicidal' hobgobelins, you do realize they dont realize this is gonna kill them right? The whole point is that Redcloak tricked them into getting themselves killed because hes an *******. Anyway you didnt answer even half of my arguments like why the hell would the hobgobelins care about Redcloak corpse at all (once again, you can become the previous leader just by killing the previous one even if you're not the same race as them!!!), how Soon can just destroy their entire army if he can leave the throne room etc. I'm getting so freaking tired of having to repeat myself too...

So yeah I'm getting annoyed at the fact that you are just saying things I already replied to a few post ago, of you not getting what I'm talking about, of you just repeating we «dont know for sure» over and over again as if it would be more important then simple logic (yeah we dont know for sure that a level 1 hobgobelin can't just get really lucky and kill Soon alone, that really doesn't trump basic logic) or just not answering my arguments altogether so yeah I'll just go now.

[Gandariel]

wow, switching to Ad Personam?

and OK, HE CAN CAST HIS FREAKIN DETECT EVIL. and now? he will be more sure that the horde of hobgoblins rushing in the throne room will be evil?
if he stands next to the door, some hobgoblins will climb from the other side, forcing him to go there and letting the hobbos outside the door to come in.
if he stands next to Redcloak's body, the hobbos will surround him and eventually grab the bodies and leave.

at any rate, from what you said you are implying that Soon would become the new Supreme Commander of the Hobgoblins... (if you think the hobgoblins would accept a LG PALADIN who killed many of them as their leader)
in this case i have nothing to answer, but

All Hail Soon! the Ghost-Paladin-Supreme-Hobgoblin-Leader!


-And, btw, i did answer all of your arguments

[silversnowe]

wow, switching to Ad Personam?

and OK, HE CAN CAST HIS FREAKIN DETECT EVIL. and now? he will be more sure that the horde of hobgoblins rushing in the throne room will be evil?
if he stands next to the door, some hobgoblins will climb from the other side, forcing him to go there and letting the hobbos outside the door to come in.
if he stands next to Redcloak's body, the hobbos will surround him and eventually grab the bodies and leave.

at any rate, from what you said you are implying that Soon would become the new Supreme Commander of the Hobgoblins... (if you think the hobgoblins would accept a LG PALADIN who killed many of them as their leader)
in this case i have nothing to answer, but

All Hail Soon! the Ghost-Paladin-Supreme-Hobgoblin-Leader!


-And, btw, i did answer all of your arguments

What HORDES of hobgoblins? There were three ("http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) hobgoblins standing outside the door. Two of them were going to kill themselves by rushing in without thinking of getting help, which leaves one hobgoblin to get help. In that time, it's possible that the Order would have already gotten there and smashed the phylactery.

[Gandariel]

What HORDES of hobgoblins? There were three ("http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) hobgoblins standing outside the door. Two of them were going to kill themselves by rushing in without thinking of getting help, which leaves one hobgoblin to get help. In that time, it's possible that the Order would have already gotten there and smashed the phylactery.

what horde? are we watching the same comic?

and yes, there were 3. while two were rushing in, the third was trying to stop them, and probably would have done it.
anyway, when Redcloak came into the throne room he killed every human in sight, so the next people to come in would have been hobgoblins. and many of them

[Shale]

Uh, there were no humans in sight. Just the positive energy spirits. And there's no indication that he brought more than the clerics we see Miko slaughter with him to the throne room proper. There's a horde outside the tower, but not right outside the door.

[Gandariel]

Uh, there were no humans in sight. Just the positive energy spirits. And there's no indication that he brought more than the clerics we see Miko slaughter with him to the throne room proper. There's a horde outside the tower, but not right outside the door.

yes, but Redcloak came all the way through the castle to the throne room, killing every human he faced. so we can presume that in the way to the throne room there are no humans.
now, how about hobgoblins? yes, maybe there aren't wither (but it sounds likely that some of them stayed there)
anyway, the 3 hobgoblins behind the door can easily call for help...

[Joerg]

Soon actually says "I can instruct the first human to enter the room about the particulars". Neither does he say that he could leave to bring a human, nor does he say that he could remove the paralysis of O-Chul.

This doesn't prove that he really couldn't do one of these things, but it is possible. I personally believe that the spirits were bound to the Gate and could not leave the throne room.

If Soon had to wait for a human, it is quite possible that Tsukiko goes there before any other. After all, she's closer than the Order, and she can fly. Whether there are any guards left which even think of going to the throne room is very questionable.

And if Tsukiko reaches the room, it just takes a few words from Xykon (out of the Phlyactery) and a Telekinesis spell to remove the thing with Soon quite powerless to stop it.

Now, I don't say that this would certainly have happened, and even then, the Order may have reached the Gate later and destroyed it (possibly killing themselves in the explosion). I think it's just not possible to make any assumption about what would have happened if ...

Also, the story surprises most of us often enough; there's no reason it wouldn't suprise us in some alternative storyline, too.

[Alecfelinus]

Tsukiko is AWESOME!
I don't know where you got these bizarre ideas of Tsukiko not contributing in a fight against the order, she can overwhelm them with an army of level-draining wights and blast down their hit-points with non-core evocations. She also greatly contibute to healing Xykon with nagative-energy spells, buff the undead, and easily cripple (or at least damage) an OotS member with the harm spell.


Problem with this logic is that Xykon had a throne roome filled with ghasts, whites, and zombies in the first book and the Order smashed through them with only the inconvenience of one broken weapon and one paralyzed elf. The Order has gotten exponentially more powerful since then, so I don't think that they will be that badly hampered by the undead.

[Alecfelinus]

Haley loaded herself with potions and arrows more powerful than she usually uses, and she ended up being the one having to run away. I think Tsukiko will be fine.

You're fogetting one all encompassing detail: Haley is Elan's girl. Elan has been told that this will all end happily for him. Do you really think things ending happily for him include having his girlfriend getting killed? Haley will be fine, and Team Evil is going down.




Besides, what kind of a story would this be if the bad guys actually win in the final showdown?

[Alecfelinus]

Personally, I think it will be funny as hell if (somehow) Miko gets rezzed and comes into play against Tsukiko. What would be even better is if they kind of recall each other but don't know how. Kind of like in Maverick when Danny Glover and Mel Gibson see each other, think very hard, look again, and both just go "Nahhh...." at the same time.

[Swordpriest]

You're fogetting one all encompassing detail: Haley is Elan's girl. Elan has been told that this will all end happily for him. Do you really think things ending happily for him include having his girlfriend getting killed? Haley will be fine, and Team Evil is going down.




Besides, what kind of a story would this be if the bad guys actually win in the final showdown?

I agree, but there's going to have to be some pretty fancy maneuvering to pull that off. At the moment, Xykon could easily kill the entire party singlehandedly, and the OotS haven't been doing much to earn xp, so I can't see them leveling up anytime soon, either.

A bunch of 12-15 level characters don't stand up too well against a 30th-level-plus lich.... :smallfrown:

[Irbis]

You're fogetting one all encompassing detail: Haley is Elan's girl. Elan has been told that this will all end happily for him. Do you really think things ending happily for him include having his girlfriend getting killed?

Oracle specifically said: it will be happy ending. For you, at least. Which might mean Elan dies saving Haley, his name is immortalized in legend, he dies happily and goes to CG afterlife where he is extra rewarded for saving the world. What is unhappy for Elan in such an ending? Or, simply, Haley dies, but Elan falls in love in Serini, marries her, reaches epic level and is famous thought multiverse. It would be cliche, but also arguably happy for him.

Or, Oracle simply twisted the meaning of the word, as always, and everyone save for Elan die from the Snarl attack. Elan lives thanks to 'happy' accident. Therefore, the ending of the OotS will be 'happy' for him, as it was bad for everyone else. Also possible.

Anyway.

So... from this thread, there are four main arguments why Xykon would lose:

A) Detect Evil.

Fine, but goblins are 'usually evil'. That happens if the goblin ninja is CN? How will Soon detect him? Only three of nine alignments can be detected with DE, and goblins can be all 9 of them.

B) Soon can leave throne room.

First, Hinjo specifically said he cannot. Second, if he can why he didn't intercepted Xykon before he entered the throne room? Why he didn't followed him after explosion? If he was capable of leaving, he could have still killed Xykon and most goblin officers. Was he too busy to do that?

No, Occam's razor simply says he was unable to leave.

C) PCs would get there soon!

The same PCs that, at the moment of the explosion, debated if they prefer to end like Roy by shooting themselves from catapult, or to try to pass as wandering cheese salesman?

'Cause these plans don't fill me with certainty.

D) Soon, who is a ghost, will prepare a spell removing condition he and his comrades are immune to, instead of useful buff, on the off chance he might need it, despite only getting 3 spells per spell level--

Wait, when you phrase it like this, it doesn't need refutation. Not really. Still, let's assume he did unparalyzed Chul - oops, we already know he couldn't even scratch the phylactery, and that was after he gained all the extra levels from fighting Xykon's "gladiators".

But Xykon was scared of phylactery destruction!

So? Soon simply succeeded on 'intimidation' or 'bluff' check. Xykon didn't even know how to make a phylactery, he might have simply assumed Soon knows what he is talking about.

Or, he panicked, because once his phylactery is in the hands of humans, they can destroy it, even if they're only inflicting 1 damage per day using all 9th level spells they can prepare. It will be destroyed eventually, which doesn't mean Soon/Chul had any chance of doing this in reasonable time.

But maybe the abjurations shielded it?

Well, I'm unaware of any abjurations that give objects more HP/Hardness/DR. If you can point some, feel free, but I think such magic would be transmutation anyway. And, abjurations in SRD are almost all blockers of some kind of magical effect, not direct damage. I could be wrong, though.

And all this assumes the goblins won't simply drag the bodies away with lasso or application of 1st level spell, or MitD, that was specifically enchanted to listen to Xykon won't do it himself.

[Gift Jeraff]

Why he didn't followed him after explosion?
Seriously? "Our oaths to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world. With the Gate shattered, my spirit can no longer influence this world." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)

Really, I think this whole discussion is made moot when you realize that Rich's intention was "Miko screwed things up", not "Miko saved the day." However, I will say that if Redcloak allowed Tsukiko to join them in the throne room, Team Evil would have most likely won (extra healing, turning, more likely someone would spot Miko and stop her since the weaker spirits would have been defeated sooner, etc.).

[DragonOfUndeath]

"if you had been less hasty however i might have ended the Xykon menace permanently" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)
Soon obviously thought he could have won if Miko hadn't shown up

[Lamech]

"if you had been less hasty however i might have ended the Xykon menace permanently" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)
Soon obviously thought he could have won if Miko hadn't shown upHe said he could, but he can't even damage a piece of paper let alone the phylactry. He wouldn't have ended anything. If Miko had been less haughty maybe SHE could have ended the threat, maybe the order could have come rushing in and saved the day. The most Soon could do would be tell someone what the phylactry is. That would be like saying Shojo is the one who stopped Xykon because Shojo pointed X out to the order.

[Gift Jeraff]

The most Soon could do would be tell someone what the phylactry is. That would be like saying Shojo is the one who stopped Xykon because Shojo pointed X out to the order.
Does reducing Xykon to a shiny bauble and killing Redcloak count for anything?

[Irbis]

Does reducing Xykon to a shiny bauble and killing Redcloak count for anything?

Well... both obviously had the means of returning to status quo within two days, so I'd say no. Though, one level lost would hurt Redcloak, it would be the only thing they would lose.

[Stmr5000]

Well... both obviously had the means of returning to status quo within two days, so I'd say no. Though, one level lost would hurt Redcloak, it would be the only thing they would lose.

That is, of course, implying that the hobgoblins had other clerics with a high enough level to raise him. Most of the hobgoblin clerics we've seen are low level.

[BladeofOblivion]

In fact, we see Immediately after, when Xykon drags Redcloak to the nearest clerics he can find. The highest level of them decides to use Cure Serious Wounds, a third level spell. Recloak's injuries were at least bad enough to warrant a Cure Critical Wounds, weren't they?

[Kish]

Also, two days? Since when does Xykon regenerate that fast?

[Lamech]

In fact, we see Immediately after, when Xykon drags Redcloak to the nearest clerics he can find. The highest level of them decides to use Cure Serious Wounds, a third level spell. Recloak's injuries were at least bad enough to warrant a Cure Critical Wounds, weren't they? The nearest clerics are generally not the highest level ones. But for arguments sake lets say none of the hobo clerics could cast raised dead. He would have to find someone else to raise dead on Redcloak, or perhaps stick an undead template (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)on him. Although the undead template is pretty unlikely since OotS generally doesn't have things like death knights or huevacas (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). So they would need to find someone who can cast divine 5th level spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)/sarcasm

So bascially what I'm saying is Redcloak would have been back in about a day tops.

[BladeofOblivion]

And Tsukiko, who hates Redcloak vehemently, would agree to raise him why?

On the bright side, I believe we have jumped much closer to the thread's topic before, this insane, massive, derailment.

[Lamech]

And Tsukiko, who hates Redcloak vehemently, would agree to raise him why?

On the bright side, I believe we have jumped much closer to the thread's topic before, this insane, massive, derailment.

Tsukiko: Lol Redcloaks dead.
Xykon: I need him for ultimate cosmic power, raise him.
Tsukiko: Should about I throw a undead template on him, he won't lose a level that way. And he'll be my undead slave. :smallsmile: OR Aww... do I have to?
Xykon: Yeah, do it.

[Reverent-One]

Tsukiko: Lol Redcloaks dead.
Xykon: I need him for ultimate cosmic power, raise him.
Tsukiko: Should about I throw a undead template on him, he won't lose a level that way. And he'll be my undead slave. :smallsmile: OR Aww... do I have to?
Xykon: Yeah, do it.

Interesting how they'll have time for such a conversation with Soon there.

[Lamech]

They would have no trouble getting the bodies out of the throne room. As I have posted earlier


Simple, swarm swarm. Hobgob one walks up to redcloak. Soon presumably has a readied slice and kills the hob. Hobgob number two walks up to redcloak and sticks a laso on redcloak. Soon has already used his readied action, and does nothing. Hobgob three drags out Redcloaks body. Soon kills two, and glares at three. The second best cleric raises Redcloak. A couple weeks later Xykon uses Soon for MM practice. A few more weeks and team evil wins.
P.S. MM = magic missle.

[Reverent-One]

They would have no trouble getting the bodies out of the throne room. As I have posted earlier

P.S. MM = magic missle.

Which at the very least assumes that the hobgoblins find out Xykon and others need help anytime soon, there's a bit of a problem there in that the hobgoblins nearby are dead thanks to Miko.


EDIT: Brain fart.

[DragonOfUndeath]

i thought this scenario was what would happen if Miko DOESN"T show up Reverent-One

[Reverent-One]

oh yes, of course. Still, the hobgob's Miko killed were on their way inside, so they could still have wound up dead, just by Soon instead of Miko. Even if they weren't, they have to care enough to suicide rush in to get the body, and they if don't don't decide to do that right away (say to wait and see if the ghost goes away on his own if they don't bother him), they give the order a chance to sneak/break in or Soon to break the paralysis on O-chul.

[Lamech]

oh yes, of course. Still, the hobgob's Miko killed were on their way inside, so they could still have wound up dead, just by Soon instead of Miko. Even if they weren't, they have to care enough to suicide rush in to get the body, and they if don't don't decide to do that right away (say to wait and see if the ghost goes away on his own if they don't bother him), they give the order a chance to sneak/break in or Soon to break the paralysis on O-chul.
As has been said before the orders current plan was to use a catapult or impersonate cheese salesmen. And Soon wouldn't prepare remove paralysis for a bunch of ghost-mayrters that can't be paralyzed. He would prepare something that was actually useful instead. Nor were the hobgobs on the way inside they were told to clear out, and they as they died were talking about staying outside where its safe, and how their weapons would be ineffective. They were sitting outside watching.

[Reverent-One]

As has been said before the orders current plan was to use a catapult or impersonate cheese salesmen.

Neither idea is the best the order could come up with, both are just what they came up with in a few rounds.


And Soon wouldn't prepare remove paralysis for a bunch of ghost-mayrters that can't be paralyzed. He would prepare something that was actually useful instead.

He still could prepare it once he knows about O-Chul.


Nor were the hobgobs on the way inside they were told to clear out, and they as they died were talking about staying outside where its safe, and how their weapons would be ineffective. They were sitting outside watching.

No, two of them were attempting to go inside to help, with the cleric telling them it would be safer outside, when Miko interrupted. And even if they were outside, that doesn't answer the other problems I mentioned, either not caring enough to suicide rush or waiting too long to do something.

[Lamech]

Neither idea is the best the order could come up with, both are just what Elan and belkar came up within a few rounds.And Haley's plan was to retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). This doesn't inspire confidence in the orders ablity to take the tower. Also as Hinjo said they could kill hundereds of Hobbos which isn't enough.



He still could prepare it once he knows about O-Chul.By that point it would be too late the MitD, at the very least would have walked in there and pulled them out. To say nothing of the goblins or Tsukiko. At the very least the goblins could have turned O-Chul into a pin-cushion.



No, two of them were attempting to go inside to help, with the cleric telling them it would be safer outside, when Miko interrupted. And even if they were outside, that doesn't answer the other problems I mentioned, either not caring enough to suicide rush or waiting too long to do something.The cleric said supreme leader said they should stay out. They said they would help anyway, and then the cleric explained that they could do nothing. While they may take suicide missions they do not seem to commit suicide with out a purpose and with out orders.
And since as you have pointed out they did want to go help, if Redcloaks holy symbol said it could help him if they pulled him out they would certainly do it. They need three goblins and a rope to get Redcloak out, so they needed to find: rope. Alternitivly Tsukiko could solve this with a level 0 spell; prestidigitation, or mage hand.
The order of the stick needed to, decide on a course of action, find a way through the goblins, take it, and walk all the way to the top of the tower. With out V, with out Roy.

Who do you think would get their job done first?

[Shale]

And Haley's plan was to retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). This doesn't inspire confidence in the orders ablity to take the tower. Also as Hinjo said they could kill hundereds of Hobbos which isn't enough.


Haley's plan after the tower exploded was to retreat. Before the gate was lost she was just as gung-ho to get there as Hinjo. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)

[Marnath]

This is kind of a pointless debate, because the fact is that the hobgoblins are not around, and have no way of knowing whats going on. Soon has won, and even if Xykon regenerates immediately, guess what? A skull is no threat to an epic ghost paladin. If tsukiko shows up? Yeah, she might give Soon a problem. But seeing as he put Xykon down, I doubt he will have trouble with a substantially lower level caster.

The battle raging below outside the castle makes it unlikely either side will send troops to the throne room anytime soon, and if the hobgoblins do arrive first, they're going to look at the remains of an epic lich and a 17th level cleric with a ghost hanging over them and say, screw that I'd rather live. Basically the only person on team evil who could take the phylactery from Soon is tsukiko and even if she cares to try it, she doesn't have such a great shot.

[Lamech]

This is kind of a pointless debate, because the fact is that the hobgoblins are not around, and have no way of knowing whats going on. Soon has won, and even if Xykon regenerates immediately, guess what? A skull is no threat to an epic ghost paladin. If tsukiko shows up? Yeah, she might give Soon a problem. But seeing as he put Xykon down, I doubt he will have trouble with a substantially lower level caster. Actually there were three, two of which were planning on charging in. Had Miko not showed up (the entire premise of this side track) they would be sitting out there with two ready to go help. If Tsukiko shows up she'll pull the Phylactry out of the throne room with a level 0 spell. Soon will glare meanicingly.



The battle raging below outside the castle makes it unlikely either side will send troops to the throne room anytime soon, and if the hobgoblins do arrive first, they're going to look at the remains of an epic lich and a 17th level cleric with a ghost hanging over them and say, screw that I'd rather live. Basically the only person on team evil who could take the phylactery from Soon is tsukiko and even if she cares to try it, she doesn't have such a great shot.As I have shown a couple time it takes 2 hobbos giving their life to pull their supreme leader, Xykon and their super artifact out of there. They are willing to be used en-masse as food to put monsters to sleep. There are plenty of clerics who can confirm Tsukiko is completely capable of resurrecting their supreme leader, who just led them to victory over their greatest foe. Not only that there were two hobbo's outside ready to go risk their life to help.

Unless someone put a stop to the hobbo's it was over.

[King of Nowhere]

A point no one mentioned before (not that I read, at least):
even assuming the phylactery and redcloak's body could be dragged from the room, the ootsers couldn't find a way in, Tsukiko would raise redcloak the next day under Xykon's orders, etc. etc. etc., Xykon would still take a few days regenerating.
Which means no cloister. V and durkon could have scryed freely, and knew what was happening.
I give the oots with replenished spells, plus the azurite forces (can't contribute much, but can still create a diversion), fair chances of infiltrating into the enemy lines, vanquish Redcloak (level drained for being resurrected and having had no chances of replenishing his spell slots) and Tsukiko before the army could do anything, and get away with the phylactery.
After that, they would have plenty of time to figure out how to destroy it.

And that all was on the hypotesis Miko didn't existed. Had Miko listened to Soon, she could have poketed the phylactery, or may even have been able to destroy it herself.

[whitelaughter]

It is to be said that an unoptimized character is generally more believable than an optimized one. Optimizing a character is something you can do when picking abilities on a character sheet, but in real life you'll do many things because they suit you.
Correction - on planet earth, wasting points is believable. Why not? There are few threats, and we all die one day anyway.

We don't have to worry about being turned into undead, or having our souls eaten by demons, or our basic natures obliterated by Chaos Beasts. There is no threat of a kiss from a flying head turning us into a soul sucking flying head....

Suppose you did live in a D&D world? How much time would you spend on hobbies like this? I for one would spend every second trying to acquire the skills needed, not to avoid dying, but to avoid fates worse than death!

[whitelaughter]

2+INT and he was an epic level paladin leading an entire order of paladin so his INT had to be pretty good.
That actually makes it *less* likely that he'd have those skills: as a leader, he needs to max out Diplomacy and back it up with Sense Motive and Knowledge (Nobility) - if he's going cross class, it'll be for 5 ranks in Bluff. (Also, he wants the 5 ranks in Knowledge(religion) for Turning and Ride+Handle Animal for his mount).

His Detect Evil ability is a more serious problem, but runs into two problems: firstly, even dead Xykon as an epic level undead will be swamping the room, especially compared to a ordinary Hobgoblin;
secondly Hobgoblins are *normally* evil, but there'd be a few Neutral Hobs in the army who wouldn't register. Given how organised the Hobs are, the neutrals (easily detected, or more accurately not detected, by low level clerics) are probably organised/trained for counter Paladin work.

Could Soon hold the throne room? Yes. Could he hold it long enough for an ally to turn up? Unclear.
With dozens of active characters moving through the organised choas of a major battle, *anything* could have happened.

[Lamech]

A point no one mentioned before (not that I read, at least):
even assuming the phylactery and redcloak's body could be dragged from the room, the ootsers couldn't find a way in, Tsukiko would raise redcloak the next day under Xykon's orders, etc. etc. etc., Xykon would still take a few days regenerating.
Which means no cloister. V and durkon could have scryed freely, and knew what was happening.
I give the oots with replenished spells, plus the azurite forces (can't contribute much, but can still create a diversion), fair chances of infiltrating into the enemy lines, vanquish Redcloak (level drained for being resurrected and having had no chances of replenishing his spell slots) and Tsukiko before the army could do anything, and get away with the phylactery.
After that, they would have plenty of time to figure out how to destroy it.
And hey were back on topic! The order v. Tsukiko and pals. Tsukiko could get her spells back at about the same time as the order. I seriously question if V had aquired greater scrying at this point in time which would probably mean that Tsukiko could throw up a false vision well before the order could get a scrying spell off. At which point they would be blind. So they would be going in with out knowing the state of the core of Xykon's people.

At this point I truly doubt that they would be to overcome team evil. Redcloak would be back and down a level, but he would still have his death touch and a few spells. Tsukiko would still have her teleport, and have some of her pet wights at this point. Jirax would presumably be around. Worse yet if the MitD decides to say... listen to Xykon and eat the order like it has wanted too since ever the order would get eaten.


And that all was on the hypotesis Miko didn't existed. Had Miko listened to Soon, she could have poketed the phylactery, or may even have been able to destroy it herself.Had Miko listened to Soon she could have pocketed the phylactry and thrown it some place like... a font of holy water which would disable it. (Well popped Xykon as soon as he regened his skull.)
But this is unlikely, if she had been standing in the thrown room she could not have stopped Xykon she would have died as well.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think Tsukiko would have been prepared for the ootsers, since she didn't knew of their existence in the first place, Redloak didn't knew they were in Azure city, and Xykon would have forgotten, or would have tougth it unimportant.
At this point, I think the order could have defeated Redcloak (level drained and with few spells) and tsukiko: both of them cannot stand much melee and are kind weak on hit points. I mean, a single disintegrate from V could probably one-shot tsukiko, and redclaok is vulnerable to the attacks of roy and Belkar. Tsukiko can cast fly on her team, but so does V, so that nullify tha advantage.
Of course, the mitd intervening could change the outcome, but it is such an impredictable turn of events (I mean, HOW is he going to act? He may simply try to talk to Roy about being rude with the figth going on around him) that I leave it out because everything could happen at that point.

Tsukiko being able to teleport, on the other hand, is a good point. If she can teleport with Redcloak and the phylactery, the order cannot follow them, so they have all the time to regenerate Xykon. The hobbos horde would still held the city, the ootsers could kill some hundred of them before needing to escape, but can't cut much on their numbers in a few days, and then Xykon would come back, and with the rigth preparation defeat soon.