fil kearney
2010-08-20, 01:38 AM
My complaint about the current system actually started with spell casting. I don't like the per day spell supply of casters... games I'm in are typically fast paced, and on a schedule. it is far too easy for the casters to blow out of spells in the first hour of the day... but the world keeps moving, and it's far more fun to keep pushing than to run and hide while things blow up. Some argue this is the "charm" of a daily spell system, but I would rather have a smooth "at will" system with good boundaries, which is what I have attempted to do. Read up on it here: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9182809#post9182809)
This ToB revision below fell into place very easily once I set up the mechanics of the spell system. By converting Adepts, they have taken a step closer to being the equals of what is the revised casters.
This system replaces how Martial Adepts use their maneuvers. It converts all maneuvers to a point cost, and the adept has a pool of points to spend on these various maneuvers.
Lets dive in.....
Big difference: there is no difference between known and readied maneuvers. If you know a maneuver, it is readied.
Second big difference: they can use the same maneuver repeatedly as long as they have the points to do it.
Swordsage and Warblade start with a maximum pool of points that they draw off of until it is depleted, and then they recover those points as dictated by their class and level, instead of recovering the maneuvers themselves.
Crusaders start with a maximum pool of points, but automatically accumulate points per round, maxing at a number determined by level.
I"ll go into these differences in further depth below.
Maneuvers cost points as shown in the chart below. Stances don't cost any points at all.
Maneuvers
Level Cost
1 1
2 3
3 5
4 7
5 9
6 11
7 13
8 15
9 17
As you can see, this mirrors the psionic progression.
The concept is simple enough, but application is key.
Look at each Adept progresion below, and I'll discuss each individually.
CL = Class Level
MP = amount of maneuver oints at each level in the pool
ST = Stances known
MK = number of maneuvers known.
PR = how many poits are recovered each round normally:
Warblade = swift action + standard attack/flourish mechanic
Crusader = Automatically refreshes at beginning of round
Swordsage = NO Point Recovery Mechanic. See below.
CL MP MK ST PR
01 03 3 1 01
02 04 4 1 02
03 05 5 1 03
04 06 5 2 04
05 07 6 2 05
06 08 6 2 06
07 10 7 2 07
08 12 7 2 08
09 14 8 2 09
10 16 8 3 10
11 18 9 3 11
12 20 9 3 12
13 23 10 3 13
14 26 10 3 14
15 29 11 3 15
16 33 11 4 16
17 37 12 4 17
18 41 12 4 18
19 45 13 4 19
20 49 13 4 20
Very simple. The warblade has a pool of points to spend on maneuvers. He keeps spending them until he runs out of points. Then he refreshes. Either by a swift action + a standard to attack or flourish, or using adaptive style.
The amount of points in a warblade's pool is small. he can only perform his top level maneuver once before needing to refresh. at level 17+, he can use 9th level powers twice before needing to refresh.
This is specifically to force warblade to consider his tactics... does he want to "waste" a round getting his top stuff back, or just use the plethora of lower level maneuvers to remain active each round..
His rate of recovery is high enough that he can always use the highest level maneuver immediately afterwards.
If he has adaptive style, he can spend a full round to recover his entire pool.
CL MP MK ST PR
01 01 5 1 01
02 02 5 1 01
03 03 6 2 02
04 04 6 2 02
05 05 7 2 03
06 06 7 3 03
07 07 8 3 04
08 08 8 3 04
09 09 9 3 05
10 10 9 3 05
11 11 10 3 06
12 12 10 3 06
13 13 11 3 07
14 14 11 3 07
15 15 12 4 08
16 16 12 4 08
17 17 13 4 09
18 18 13 4 09
19 19 14 4 10
20 20 14 4 10
<revised 8/20/10... reduced MP and PR>
Crusaders start combat with a full pool of points. Once they spend some of the points, they will begin automatically recovering a number of points at the beginning of their next round as indicated by their level. If these points are not used, they will continue to accumulate until the maximum number in their pool is reached.
For example, a 20th level crusader has a pool of 20 points. If spent, he accumulates 10 points at the beginning of each round. after 2 rounds when a total of 20 points have added back to his pool; the next round, no points are gained, because the crusader has reached the maximum number of points allowed for his level.
Notice that he can use his best ability once, and the rate of points inspired will ALWAYS allow some maneuver to be used next round.. the crusader NEVER has to stop using maneuvers.. even when dipping low to get a top maneuver next round... he doesn't have to stop spending points. This is why there is such a massive difference between how many points a crusader has compared to the warblade or swordsage.
Furthermore, the amount of points he is inspired with each round is never enough to activate his highest level maneuvers.
<revised>
previously, the MP and PR were higher, but once the crusader got a full battery, he could spam top level maneuvers repeatedly. This reduction is another balance against spamming infinite awesome.... he has to either skip using maneuvers, or drop down to a 1-3 level maneuver (depending on level) to accumulate the best possible the following round.
For example:
level 20 crusader has 20 points, and automatically recovers 10 each round.
1st round -- starts with 20 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 3 remain
2nd round -- 10 recover; 13 points.. 3rd level maneuver = 5; 8 remain
3rd round -- 10 recover; 18 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 1 remain
4th round -- 10 recover; 11 points.. 2nd level maneuver = 3; 8 remain
6th round -- 10 recover; 18 points.. 6th level maneuver = 11; 7 remain
7th round -- 10 recover; 17 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 0 remain
8th round -- 10 recover; 10 points.. 2nd level maneuver = 3; 7 remain
9th round -- 10 recover; 17 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 0 remain
Outside of combat, the crusader is free to use maneuvers at will as all adepts are.
CL MP MK ST PR
01 03 06 1 0
02 06 07 2 0
03 09 08 2 0
04 12 09 2 0
05 15 10 3 0
06 18 11 3 0
07 21 12 3 0
08 24 13 3 0
09 27 14 4 0
10 30 15 4 0
11 33 16 4 0
12 36 17 4 0
13 39 18 4 0
14 42 19 5 0
15 45 20 5 0
16 48 21 5 0
17 51 22 5 0
18 54 23 5 0
19 57 24 5 0
20 60 25 6 0
Swordsage has NO standard recovery mechanic: he gains adaptive syle as a free feat to use, and recovers his full point pool with a full round action.
Of course, the swordsage's big advantage is the sheer numbers of maneuvers known. And his pool is substantial... he can normally use his highest level maneuver three times before needing to refresh.. At higher levels, he can spam low maneuvers repeatedly before needing to refresh.
The adaptive style mechanic, and no recovery rate otherwise makes the sage choose between those two options. when he needs to recover, it takes him out of the fight completely that next round, so he needs to really decide if he wants to use a high level maneuver.
<revised 8/20>
Here's some more fun to consider: recovery mechanics.
1. the nice DM allows recovery to happen because it just does... you declare it, you get it.
2. recovery requires a concentration check = to DC 10+ however many points you are recovering... a 20th level caster CAN recover 82 points on a full round recovery... but will need to hit a concentration check of 92.
He can choose to recover less... if he can only expect to get a 30 on his check, then he will choose to recover only 20 points... even if his standard action recovery COULD allow up to 40... if he can't get a 50 on a check, he's out of luck.
3. standard action recovery requires a concentration check... the amount of points you get are equal to your result - 10 (minimum 1, maximum = standard recovery limit by level). If you roll a 37, you recover 27. If you take a full round recovery, you get back double your result.. if you roll a 37, you get back 74 points (up to the maximum available for your pool... if you are buffed, and only have 61 available, the extra 13 are wasted)
4. Recovery is automatic as per #1... but if you get damaged, you have to make a concentration check DC = 10+damage taken... failure means your attempt to recover is totally wasted. try again next round.
5. combine #2 or #3 with #4.. you determine how many points you'll get back... but if you take damage, you have to make additional concentration checks to not waste the round.
all but #1 makes the pool more like HP than a dependable battery... you are taking chances that you will be safe, or will roll well, or possibly both.
I have only playtested #1... if you want to knock your adepts down a few pegs, then go with #2-#5. You can also mix and match... You could decide warblade uses #4 unless utilizing adaptive style.. this (and thus swordsages by default) use #1 without risk of disruption... crusaders do not get the option to use adaptive style, perhaps instead they must also abide by #4: tallying up how much damage they took this round to determine the DC before automatically recovering.
It would be up to the group to decide on how hellacious you want to make it.
Again, my big goal here is to put Adepts on more even ground with casters.. raising their level of power while keeping the challenge and "fun" of choosing your moves wisely, working with your team.
Clarifications?
Feedback most appreciated.
This ToB revision below fell into place very easily once I set up the mechanics of the spell system. By converting Adepts, they have taken a step closer to being the equals of what is the revised casters.
This system replaces how Martial Adepts use their maneuvers. It converts all maneuvers to a point cost, and the adept has a pool of points to spend on these various maneuvers.
Lets dive in.....
Big difference: there is no difference between known and readied maneuvers. If you know a maneuver, it is readied.
Second big difference: they can use the same maneuver repeatedly as long as they have the points to do it.
Swordsage and Warblade start with a maximum pool of points that they draw off of until it is depleted, and then they recover those points as dictated by their class and level, instead of recovering the maneuvers themselves.
Crusaders start with a maximum pool of points, but automatically accumulate points per round, maxing at a number determined by level.
I"ll go into these differences in further depth below.
Maneuvers cost points as shown in the chart below. Stances don't cost any points at all.
Maneuvers
Level Cost
1 1
2 3
3 5
4 7
5 9
6 11
7 13
8 15
9 17
As you can see, this mirrors the psionic progression.
The concept is simple enough, but application is key.
Look at each Adept progresion below, and I'll discuss each individually.
CL = Class Level
MP = amount of maneuver oints at each level in the pool
ST = Stances known
MK = number of maneuvers known.
PR = how many poits are recovered each round normally:
Warblade = swift action + standard attack/flourish mechanic
Crusader = Automatically refreshes at beginning of round
Swordsage = NO Point Recovery Mechanic. See below.
CL MP MK ST PR
01 03 3 1 01
02 04 4 1 02
03 05 5 1 03
04 06 5 2 04
05 07 6 2 05
06 08 6 2 06
07 10 7 2 07
08 12 7 2 08
09 14 8 2 09
10 16 8 3 10
11 18 9 3 11
12 20 9 3 12
13 23 10 3 13
14 26 10 3 14
15 29 11 3 15
16 33 11 4 16
17 37 12 4 17
18 41 12 4 18
19 45 13 4 19
20 49 13 4 20
Very simple. The warblade has a pool of points to spend on maneuvers. He keeps spending them until he runs out of points. Then he refreshes. Either by a swift action + a standard to attack or flourish, or using adaptive style.
The amount of points in a warblade's pool is small. he can only perform his top level maneuver once before needing to refresh. at level 17+, he can use 9th level powers twice before needing to refresh.
This is specifically to force warblade to consider his tactics... does he want to "waste" a round getting his top stuff back, or just use the plethora of lower level maneuvers to remain active each round..
His rate of recovery is high enough that he can always use the highest level maneuver immediately afterwards.
If he has adaptive style, he can spend a full round to recover his entire pool.
CL MP MK ST PR
01 01 5 1 01
02 02 5 1 01
03 03 6 2 02
04 04 6 2 02
05 05 7 2 03
06 06 7 3 03
07 07 8 3 04
08 08 8 3 04
09 09 9 3 05
10 10 9 3 05
11 11 10 3 06
12 12 10 3 06
13 13 11 3 07
14 14 11 3 07
15 15 12 4 08
16 16 12 4 08
17 17 13 4 09
18 18 13 4 09
19 19 14 4 10
20 20 14 4 10
<revised 8/20/10... reduced MP and PR>
Crusaders start combat with a full pool of points. Once they spend some of the points, they will begin automatically recovering a number of points at the beginning of their next round as indicated by their level. If these points are not used, they will continue to accumulate until the maximum number in their pool is reached.
For example, a 20th level crusader has a pool of 20 points. If spent, he accumulates 10 points at the beginning of each round. after 2 rounds when a total of 20 points have added back to his pool; the next round, no points are gained, because the crusader has reached the maximum number of points allowed for his level.
Notice that he can use his best ability once, and the rate of points inspired will ALWAYS allow some maneuver to be used next round.. the crusader NEVER has to stop using maneuvers.. even when dipping low to get a top maneuver next round... he doesn't have to stop spending points. This is why there is such a massive difference between how many points a crusader has compared to the warblade or swordsage.
Furthermore, the amount of points he is inspired with each round is never enough to activate his highest level maneuvers.
<revised>
previously, the MP and PR were higher, but once the crusader got a full battery, he could spam top level maneuvers repeatedly. This reduction is another balance against spamming infinite awesome.... he has to either skip using maneuvers, or drop down to a 1-3 level maneuver (depending on level) to accumulate the best possible the following round.
For example:
level 20 crusader has 20 points, and automatically recovers 10 each round.
1st round -- starts with 20 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 3 remain
2nd round -- 10 recover; 13 points.. 3rd level maneuver = 5; 8 remain
3rd round -- 10 recover; 18 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 1 remain
4th round -- 10 recover; 11 points.. 2nd level maneuver = 3; 8 remain
6th round -- 10 recover; 18 points.. 6th level maneuver = 11; 7 remain
7th round -- 10 recover; 17 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 0 remain
8th round -- 10 recover; 10 points.. 2nd level maneuver = 3; 7 remain
9th round -- 10 recover; 17 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 0 remain
Outside of combat, the crusader is free to use maneuvers at will as all adepts are.
CL MP MK ST PR
01 03 06 1 0
02 06 07 2 0
03 09 08 2 0
04 12 09 2 0
05 15 10 3 0
06 18 11 3 0
07 21 12 3 0
08 24 13 3 0
09 27 14 4 0
10 30 15 4 0
11 33 16 4 0
12 36 17 4 0
13 39 18 4 0
14 42 19 5 0
15 45 20 5 0
16 48 21 5 0
17 51 22 5 0
18 54 23 5 0
19 57 24 5 0
20 60 25 6 0
Swordsage has NO standard recovery mechanic: he gains adaptive syle as a free feat to use, and recovers his full point pool with a full round action.
Of course, the swordsage's big advantage is the sheer numbers of maneuvers known. And his pool is substantial... he can normally use his highest level maneuver three times before needing to refresh.. At higher levels, he can spam low maneuvers repeatedly before needing to refresh.
The adaptive style mechanic, and no recovery rate otherwise makes the sage choose between those two options. when he needs to recover, it takes him out of the fight completely that next round, so he needs to really decide if he wants to use a high level maneuver.
<revised 8/20>
Here's some more fun to consider: recovery mechanics.
1. the nice DM allows recovery to happen because it just does... you declare it, you get it.
2. recovery requires a concentration check = to DC 10+ however many points you are recovering... a 20th level caster CAN recover 82 points on a full round recovery... but will need to hit a concentration check of 92.
He can choose to recover less... if he can only expect to get a 30 on his check, then he will choose to recover only 20 points... even if his standard action recovery COULD allow up to 40... if he can't get a 50 on a check, he's out of luck.
3. standard action recovery requires a concentration check... the amount of points you get are equal to your result - 10 (minimum 1, maximum = standard recovery limit by level). If you roll a 37, you recover 27. If you take a full round recovery, you get back double your result.. if you roll a 37, you get back 74 points (up to the maximum available for your pool... if you are buffed, and only have 61 available, the extra 13 are wasted)
4. Recovery is automatic as per #1... but if you get damaged, you have to make a concentration check DC = 10+damage taken... failure means your attempt to recover is totally wasted. try again next round.
5. combine #2 or #3 with #4.. you determine how many points you'll get back... but if you take damage, you have to make additional concentration checks to not waste the round.
all but #1 makes the pool more like HP than a dependable battery... you are taking chances that you will be safe, or will roll well, or possibly both.
I have only playtested #1... if you want to knock your adepts down a few pegs, then go with #2-#5. You can also mix and match... You could decide warblade uses #4 unless utilizing adaptive style.. this (and thus swordsages by default) use #1 without risk of disruption... crusaders do not get the option to use adaptive style, perhaps instead they must also abide by #4: tallying up how much damage they took this round to determine the DC before automatically recovering.
It would be up to the group to decide on how hellacious you want to make it.
Again, my big goal here is to put Adepts on more even ground with casters.. raising their level of power while keeping the challenge and "fun" of choosing your moves wisely, working with your team.
Clarifications?
Feedback most appreciated.