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Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-20, 01:54 AM
Been lurking around, decided you all might be able to help....

This fella should be 8th level, im just looking for ideas of what to do with this build. I helped my friend make an awesome Master Thrower/Rogue/Fighter Halfling, after which my flavor Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order started to look... well, lame. I don't play gishes often, so any help would be appreciated.

STR: 12
DEX 16 (18)
CON: 14
INT: 18
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

1: Finesse
1: Able Learner
Flaw: Forlorn (lose Familiar) I. Buckler Defense
3: Combat Expertise
6: Deadly Defense

Wizard Metamagic Feat: Still Spell

level 1: Ranger 1
level 2-6: Wizard 5
level 7-8: Knight Phantom

Iwas planning on sticking this guy with a mithral shirt, mithral buckler, and a shortsword. ( I like my shortswords for when those larger than me things try to grapple)

for those unfamiliar Knight Phantoms, wizard was kind enough to post an excerpt... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4

Any help with items, feats, and spells would be appreciated. I would like to stick with a finesse build, yes, I know, power attack is awesome, blah, blah, blah.

thanks ahead of time!

ex cathedra
2010-08-20, 02:01 AM
Hm. Are you sure that you want to take a level in Ranger? There are probably almost certainly better ways to get proficiency with martial weapons, and several of them don't cost a spellcasting level.

You're interested in gishing with a highly dex-based character. If only someone would make a class for a character like that! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-20, 02:29 AM
I am not really aware of any other ways to get martial weapon proficiencies without paying for them with feats or LA. Also ,the ranger was attractive, because I could somewhat mitigate my lack of skill points due to all the wizard and Knight Phantom levels....

tell me these ways of martial weapon proficiencies without class levels, if you would....

Also, the swiftblade is not new to me.... interesting, but too much of a one trick pony, in my opinion.

gorfnab
2010-08-20, 03:48 AM
tell me these ways of martial weapon proficiencies without class levels, if you would....

Feats: Otherworldly, Militia
Races: Neraphim (Planar Handbook)

Human
1. Wizard - Simple "Combat" Wizard ACF (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-wizard) - Militia, Combat Casting, Still Spell (flaw) B: Combat Expertise
2. Wizard
3. Wizard - Weapon Finesse
4. Wizard
5. Wizard - B: Deadly Defense
6. Knight Phantom - Knowledge Devotion
7. Knight Phantom
8. Knight Phantom
9. Abjurant Champion - Improved Combat Expertise
10. Abjurant Champion
11. Abjurant Champion.
12. Abjurant Champion - Quicken Spell
13. Abjurant Champion
14. Knight Phantom
15. Knight Phantom - Arcane Strike or Extend Spell
16. Knight Phantom
17. Knight Phantom
18. Knight Phantom - Combat Reflexes, Lunging Strike, or Persistent Spell
19. Knight Phantom
20. Knight Phantom

Before the Abjurant Champion levels carry a +X Twilight Mithril Buckler and +X Mithril Chain Shirt. Once you hit Abjurant Champion level 2 or 3 sell the buckler because using the Shield spell will net you better AC same holds for when you get Greater Luminous Armor. Greater Luminous Armor + Shield + Abjurant Champion + Improved Combat Expertise should give you an insane AC. For this build the spell Wraith Strike will come in handy when fighting defensively.

You could also go with Neraphim and thus drop the Militia feat. This will also net you some interesting side effects with the spells Alter Self and Polymorph.

ex cathedra
2010-08-20, 05:54 AM
Similarly, a tiefling carries the same benefits while boosting your highest two stats. The LA+1 is a downer, but if buy-off is allowed it's an option.

I would suggest using Feycraft weapons rather than taking Weapon Finesse, since the hit to base damage is small enough to be practically irrelevant.

Eldariel
2010-08-20, 08:41 AM
That requires FR Regional feats though so it's a bit iffy for an Eberron-character. But Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom -> is fine, really. Not quite as strong as Wizard, but Ranger isn't useless: It gives you access to Ranger Wands (notably Lion's Pounce, Rhino's Rush, Hunter's Mercy, Find The Gap, Foebane & Cure Light Wounds), ~40-44 points off a great skill list (and you can use PHBII retraining to focus those points on specific skills), some tradeable abilities (CChamp has few decent trade-offs for Wild Empathy, you could pick up Trapfinding over Track if desired, etc.), a Favored Enemy (Arcane Hunter is nice), etc. Actually, Ranger 2 for free Power Attack (Strong-Arm Style from Dragon Whatever; if you can't get Dragon, forget about it) to go with e.g. Finessed Spiked Chain could be an option; then you could go Ranger 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Knight Phantom X/Abjurant Champion X

You won't be as good as a dedicated Wizard, sure, but you'll be quite well off compared to almost anything else. And if going the Finesse-path, you probably should invest in Shadow Blade to get some damage off it. It's probably three feats though, which is all sorts of painful, so weigh it against what you'd get with those three feats otherwise.

true_shinken
2010-08-20, 09:21 AM
This fella should be 8th level, im just looking for ideas of what to do with this build. I helped my friend make an awesome Master Thrower/Rogue/Fighter Halfling, after which my flavor Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order started to look... well, lame. I don't play gishes often, so any help would be appreciated.

FOOL!
You should be a Mystic Ranger with Sword of Arcane Order going into Swiftblade for laughs.

http://blogs.pioneerlocal.com/religion/I-pity-the-fool.jpg

Well, that said, I think Knight Phantom is a very nice class and doesn't afraid of anything.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-20, 12:17 PM
See, I knew you all had ideas floating around that could help me out...
However: 1) My play group does not generally allow more than one prestige class. We feel prestige classes are....well, prestigious. We tend to go with the idea, that once you are in, you are in. Theres no getting out (usually), no leaving. So, no Abjurant Champion, since Im already taking the Knight Phantom.

2) Yeah.... Forgotten Realms feats probably won't fly. First, we were gonna do Faerun, but thats kind of switched to Eberron, we decided. Little grittier, darker, and not 80 million people running around that are level 30 or higher, who could do the job that they are hiring us to do, with no cash expenditure, and in an 80th of the time.

@ true_shinken: Yes, I considered the Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order... The idea gave me much pleasure, but in the end, I felt it was slightly cheese, what, with having better casting the a wizard up to level 10. plus, full BAB, d8 HD, 6+INT skills, plus all the other goodies rangers get. I dig the picture though, lol.

EDIT: Also, just looked up Militia. it only provides a couple martial weapon proficiencies... if you read the Knight Phantom requirements, it requires I have ALL martial weapon proficiencies.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 12:20 PM
See, I knew you all had ideas floating around that could help me out...
However: 1) My play group does not generally allow more than one prestige class. We feel prestige classes are....well, prestigious. We tend to go with the idea, that once you are in, you are in. Theres no getting out (usually), no leaving. So, no Abjurant Champion, since Im already taking the Knight Phantom.Having to return to wizard will be slightly annoying, but if you get that high, well, you'll be a high level wizard.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-20, 12:25 PM
Yes, yes it will be. Or, I could break the first commandment of optimization, are go to ranger, and lose Caster levels (happens) and Spell levels. (ouch?) More feats and skill points though, I guess.

InkEyes
2010-08-20, 12:34 PM
See, I knew you all had ideas floating around that could help me out...
However: 1) My play group does not generally allow more than one prestige class. We feel prestige classes are....well, prestigious. We tend to go with the idea, that once you are in, you are in. Theres no getting out (usually), no leaving. So, no Abjurant Champion, since Im already taking the Knight Phantom.

The problem with going the prestige class route for gishes is you need to take multiple prestige classes to be an effective gish. The two best solutions would probably be allowing entry into similarly-themed prestige classes or allowing advancement in Knight Phantom past its 10th level. If you can't do either, it might be best to go duskblade for your base melee class; it nets you some nice combat spells, martial weapon proficiency, a shared casting stat, and full BAB. Advance in Duskblade for your remaining levels or maybe dip for a few more in wizard and the rest in duskblade.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-20, 12:41 PM
Duskblade, eh? thats something worth looking into, though i do like my ranger skills...
Also, besides just feat and class progression, you all have any advice for spells and items? I have 27,000 gp, as per the DMG. I can cast in light armor, so no need for twilight armor, btw.

Like i said, I dont play gishes often, I normally leave that up to one of my friends, he might die if we dont letting him play a spellcaster. Seriously. Die. So, this is kind of an experiment... for both of us.

InkEyes
2010-08-20, 01:21 PM
Duskblade, eh? thats something worth looking into, though i do like my ranger skills...
Also, besides just feat and class progression, you all have any advice for spells and items? I have 27,000 gp, as per the DMG. I can cast in light armor, so no need for twilight armor, btw.

Like i said, I dont play gishes often, I normally leave that up to one of my friends, he might die if we dont letting him play a spellcaster. Seriously. Die. So, this is kind of an experiment... for both of us.

As far as spells go, look for combat buffs, primarily. Displacement and Mirror Image are both great because they reduce the chances of a successful hit without actively pumping AC. Bull's Strength and the like will boost your damage and increase your chance to hit. Actively search out spells that don't require saves, such as the Orb spells from the Spell Compendium; spells that effect the environment without triggering saves are also good, like Grease or Fog Cloud. True Strike will be your close and intimate friend.

If you go for levels of Duskblade, anything with a touch attack will be great for you. At level 3 duskblades can channel touch attacks into their weapons and release them on successful hits; this goes for any touch spell a duskblade knows (and since their spell list is small) any touch spells picked up by wizard levels will only help.

Two other feats to keep in mind are Arcane Strike and Practiced Spellcaster. Arcane Strike lets you burn spells for bonus damage and + to hit, and Practiced Spellcaster boosts the caster level of one of your classes. Finding a way to buff your familiar is a good idea too, since you can have it deliver touch spells for you. Power Attack and Shock Trooper will also be good for any meleer. Stacked with Arcane Strike and Arcane Channeling, you can deal tons of damage to your enemies.

For magic items, I'd try looking for some stuff that stores spells. If you end up going Wizard, Blessed Book is a staple. If you want a shield, but don't like memorizing the spell, buy an animated one with all the bells and whistles. Magic items that let you teleport or fly will help you close and escape from enemies quickly. The best sort of weapon for you will likely be a Greatsword tricked-out to your taste. I know there are some armor enhancements in the Magic Item Compendium that give you either blur or displacement for a few times each day, and that could end up helping a lot.

Eternal wands (from the MiC) can be used a 3/4 times per day (I forget which) and never run out, so you can buff yourself with them periodically. Some Orb wands for emergency ranged combat will also help. Get something that can heal you periodically (a belt of healing comes to mind).

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-20, 03:02 PM
Yes, I already had Arcane Strike tagged as my level 9 feat, and Practiced Spellcaster for later levels, if I lose anymore caster levels. As of right now, with my caster level = my character level (8) -2, its not too bad. However, if I ever get 4 caster levels behind, you can bet Practiced Spellcaster will be on my sheet...

Im definitely ditching the familiar, taking the Forlorn Flaw, and getting a feat out of it. Since my wizard and Knight Phantom class levels arent stacking in that regard, its just a weakness... no point in buffing it up, as far as Im concerned... On a side note, I am sticking with wizard, it is the fastest way to get into the prestige class.

Blessed Book! wow, never noticed that one, awesome. thanks for the heads up on that one, the advice is worth its weight in gold.... well.. hm.... let me ponder that one... Point is, its valuable.

Im also aware of the power attack shock trooper combo, however, being in light armor, I feel I should capitalize on dexterity...? Or am i just being completely stupid about this part?

As for animated shields.... we, as a gaming group, have decided we don't believe they exist. They are a government lie, propagated by the mainstream media. Or something like that.

EDIT: Also, Rings of Wizardry.... Look really good, could a have Ring of Wizardry I and 7000gp other stuffs... worth it at this level, or not?

Greenish
2010-08-20, 03:48 PM
Im also aware of the power attack shock trooper combo, however, being in light armor, I feel I should capitalize on dexterity...? Or am i just being completely stupid about this part?Trying to pump AC is rather expensive, and focusing Dex isn't the best way to go about it. It'd just spare feats and two-hand with decent strength.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-21, 04:23 AM
I had another idea.... what if I went swashbuckler 1, wizard 5, knight phantom 2, then go back to swashbuckler, pick up Insightful strike at swashbuckler 3 (which would synergize well with my wizard levels and high INT), then finish up with knight phantom, and then go back to wizard? Would that make a Dex build worth it? If my INT is high enough, I wouldnt have to worry about power attack at all, right? Or, should i just give up my dream of a DEX based wizard/something/Knight Phantom, and stick with power attack....?

Fizban
2010-08-21, 05:47 AM
I don't have any commentary for the build, but I saw you're using Deadly Defense and had to post a suggestion: see if you can get your DM to give you 1d6 for every 2 points you put into Expertise, instead of just the flat off/on with -2 or more. That gives you some decent synergy between the two feats, since having both will let you get up to 2d6, and it actually makes Improved Combat Expertise something you might use. And if he tries to argue it's too powerful that way, point out you're spending 3 feats and getting less damage than Power Attack, and it doesn't even multiply on a crit.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 06:45 AM
I had another idea.... what if I went swashbuckler 1, wizard 5, knight phantom 2, then go back to swashbuckler, pick up Insightful strike at swashbuckler 3 (which would synergize well with my wizard levels and high INT), then finish up with knight phantom, and then go back to wizard? Would that make a Dex build worth it? If my INT is high enough, I wouldnt have to worry about power attack at all, right? Or, should i just give up my dream of a DEX based wizard/something/Knight Phantom, and stick with power attack....?Well, two-handing is the easier method, but with wizard buffs and so forth you'll probably do just fine with finesse. I don't think losing two caster levels for Int to damage is worth it, though. The spells will give you better leverage with them brains. :smallwink:

true_shinken
2010-08-21, 07:59 AM
I don't have any commentary for the build, but I saw you're using Deadly Defense and had to post a suggestion: see if you can get your DM to give you 1d6 for every 2 points you put into Expertise, instead of just the flat off/on with -2 or more.

You could also optimize Combat Expertise (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866290/A_short_guide_to_defensive_fighting), with Deadly Defense being just a kicker.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-08-22, 02:30 AM
Great Help everyone, thanks!