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thompur
2010-08-20, 10:44 AM
I've noticed in a few threads that a major complaint about Fighters is that their feats don't scale well. I heartily agree with this. The problem is how to scale them .
Let's take a popular one: Weapon Focus. +1 to hit with the specific weapon. Good at 1st level. By 6th level, meh.

Do you think making it +1 +1/4 fighter levels worth having?

Toughness: +5hp +2/HD

Are these feats salvagable? How would, or have you improved generally weak feats to make them worth taking?

Edit: I realize that Toughness is not a fighter feat, and you shouldn't restrict yourself to such.

Hirax
2010-08-20, 10:48 AM
There's a feat called improved toughness somewhere (CWar?), that gives you +1 HP per HD. I'd merge toughness and improved toughness, and say you get +3 HP or +1 HP per HD, whichever is greater, every time you take the feat. Things like W focus could just be +1 per 5 levels or somewhere in that neighborhood.

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 11:03 AM
Maybe scale feats like weapon focus with your BAB? I'd do BAB over level so your get more benefit from it if you have levels in pure fighting classes.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-20, 11:05 AM
Maybe scale feats like weapon focus with your BAB? I'd do BAB over level so your get more benefit from it if you have levels in pure fighting classes.

bab/level will never be greater than 1.

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 11:13 AM
bab/level will never be greater than 1.

Yes I know. I meant more so you don't really get the benefits of weapon focus if you take a few wizard levels. Although I suppose it really doesn't matter.

subject42
2010-08-20, 11:18 AM
There's a feat called improved toughness somewhere (CWar?), that gives you +1 HP per HD. I'd merge toughness and improved toughness, and say you get +3 HP or +1 HP per HD, whichever is greater, every time you take the feat.

Pathfinder changed toughness so that you get 3hp for your first hit die, then an extra hit point for every additional hit die. It seems to work pretty well.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-20, 11:18 AM
Yes I know. I meant more so you don't really get the benefits of weapon focus if you take a few wizard levels. Although I suppose it really doesn't matter.

+1 plus +1 per bab/4. Pathfinder's power attack actually scales that way.

Telonius
2010-08-20, 11:21 AM
One of my houserules is that TWF scales a bit better. You get one extra attack per 5 BAB. Improved TWF decreases the TWF penalty by 1, Greater TWF decreases it by an additional 1.

Cleave is one of the most commonly complained-about, given how situational it is. What if the bonus was, the next time you attack after dropping a foe, you get an extra attack at full BAB (a la Haste)? For Great Cleave, two additional attacks.

Tharck
2010-08-20, 11:22 AM
If you want things to scale reduce the amount of bonus Fighter Feats (or dont) and find abilities which increase over time. Such as Weapon Focus: All Fighters recieve Weapon Focus at level 1. At level 4 they gain Weapon Specialize for free in that weapon. At level 8 they gain Greater Wpn Fcs for free. At 12th Greater Wpn Spec for free. And Melee Weapon Mastery choosing a type of weapon they are good at.

This will strengthen a fighter a bit without making them too complicated or crazy. They should save a good amount of their many feats with this route and more free to explore other options.

To be honest though I find the Fighter class fine. People dump on it a lot and in comparison to some of the other core classes they're not as... "powerful"... but they still serve a good role in an adventuring group and it's hard to see an adventuring group complete without a fighter.

Milskidasith
2010-08-20, 11:29 AM
One of my houserules is that TWF scales a bit better. You get one extra attack per 5 BAB. Improved TWF decreases the TWF penalty by 1, Greater TWF decreases it by an additional 1.

Cleave is one of the most commonly complained-about, given how situational it is. What if the bonus was, the next time you attack after dropping a foe, you get an extra attack at full BAB (a la Haste)? For Great Cleave, two additional attacks.

Why would a +1 to attack from TWF be any better than a +1 to attack from weapon focus? I'll grant it is more flexible, but to be useful it should probably be Improved TWF negates the penalties entirely.

Telonius
2010-08-20, 11:38 AM
Why would a +1 to attack from TWF be any better than a +1 to attack from weapon focus? I'll grant it is more flexible, but to be useful it should probably be Improved TWF negates the penalties entirely.

But then I have to figure out something else to give Ranger at level 11. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-08-20, 11:39 AM
To be honest though I find the Fighter class fine. People dump on it a lot and in comparison to some of the other core classes they're not as... "powerful"... but they still serve a good role in an adventuring group and it's hard to see an adventuring group complete without a fighter.Are you playing core only with druids houseruled?

[Edit]: Not that it'd change the fact that many if not most feats scale very poorly.

But then I have to figure out something else to give Ranger at level 11. :smalltongue:Two-weapon Rend? Double Hit? TW Defense?

Doug Lampert
2010-08-20, 11:53 AM
Why would a +1 to attack from TWF be any better than a +1 to attack from weapon focus? I'll grant it is more flexible, but to be useful it should probably be Improved TWF negates the penalties entirely.

There's a thematic problem with D&D3.5 TWF.

Historical and fictional TWF has almost ALWAYS been two mismatched weapons. Rapier and main gauche, katana and wakizashi, ext...

Two pistols in fiction is about the only time other than D&D inspired fiction that anyone uses two identical weapons.

D&D mismatched weapons simply doesn't work, because all your weapon boosting feats apply to only one weapon. Once you've got even as weak a feat as Weapon Specialization your two short swords are BETTER than short sword + longsword + one specialization or short sword + bastardsword + exotic proficiency.

And focus of course also only applies to one weapon in a mismatched pair.

So the only way paired weapons actually work (a long weapon and a short weapon for defense and secondary attack), doesn't work at all in D&D land.

This is annoying. Making the TWF feat chain duplicate the focus/specialization chain for a disimilar pair of weapons would be a reasonable fix.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 12:00 PM
D&D mismatched weapons simply doesn't work, because all your weapon boosting feats apply to only one weapon. Once you've got even as weak a feat as Weapon Specialization your two short swords are BETTER than short sword + longsword + one specialization or short sword + bastardsword + exotic proficiency.Well, given that most weapon boosting feats are pretty poor, that's not a huge hurdle (compared to others TWF faces in 3.5).

There are some things that allow you to apply the effects on two different weapons, but yeah.

Aran Banks
2010-08-20, 12:07 PM
Here's a big list of scaling combat feats (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_Combat_Feats). They scale by BAB (+0, +1, +6, +11, and +16).

Just in case you're interested.

Also, your scaling progressions for Weapon Focus and Toughness are good, though I'd personally tone them down a bit. IMO, weapon focus would be 1 + 1/5 level for a Tier 3 feat, and Toughness would be fine at +2HP/HD or ECL.

jiriku
2010-08-20, 12:10 PM
IMC, I roll all of the Improved-, Greater- and Superior-x feats into the original feat, and unlock the improvements when the character acquires the prerequisites that would have been needed to purchase the advanced feat.

Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 12:15 PM
Tempest allows you to apply weapon specific feats of on weapon to both in a pair. Tempest, however, actually makes you WORSE at TWF than just about any other 5 levels in just about any other martially oriented class. Its just BAD. The only way to make Tempest any good, is to give all of the prereqs for free, and give it Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz as bonus feats at 3 and 5, or somthing, so that it can actually be good at TWFing while Spring Attacking. Cause otherwise it FAILS at this. Miserably.

Person_Man
2010-08-20, 12:24 PM
There are plenty of feats that scale.

Almost anything that requires a Saving Throw: Usually 10 + 1/2 your level + Ability score. So the higher your level, the better the feat becomes. Good examples include Dire Flail Smash and Three Mountains Style.
Domain feats: Almost all of them scale with your level. Things like Animal Devotion and Knowledge Devotion are a real standouts. Although they require Turn Undead to fuel, that's easy enough to get via multiclassing or PrC options.
Metamagic: Although not useful to strait Fighters, there's plenty of metamagic that scales (usually because they modify your spells, which scale, by a set % or additional effect).
Power Attack and most feats that improve Power Attack: Leap Attack, Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Shock Trooper, etc.
Most X to Y feats: For example, Combat Panache, Divine Might, Evil Blessing, and Divine Shield all provide bonuses based on your Cha bonus. Since your Cha bonus can improve with levels and buffs and magic items, the Feat effectively scales.


There are also numerous quirky feats like Ancestral Relic, Chosen of Evil, Dragonmarked, and Combat Focus, which effectively scale with your level or scale with the number of feats you take within a certain category.

D&D also includes a huge number of feats that just plain suck. This was part of the design philosophy - to make D&D more like Magic the Gathering. It provides players with a huge array of options, and rewards rules mastery. The solution is simple - avoid taking cruddy feats.

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 12:31 PM
There are plenty of feats that scale.

Almost anything that requires a Saving Throw: Usually 10 + 1/2 your level + Ability score. So the higher your level, the better the feat becomes. Good examples include Dire Flail Smash and Three Mountains Style.
Domain feats: Almost all of them scale with your level. Things like Animal Devotion and Knowledge Devotion are a real standouts. Although they require Turn Undead to fuel, that's easy enough to get via multiclassing or PrC options.
Metamagic: Although not useful to strait Fighters, there's plenty of metamagic that scales (usually because they modify your spells, which scale, by a set % or additional effect).
Power Attack and most feats that improve Power Attack: Leap Attack, Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Shock Trooper, etc.
Most X to Y feats: For example, Combat Panache, Divine Might, Evil Blessing, and Divine Shield all provide bonuses based on your Cha bonus. Since your Cha bonus can improve with levels and buffs and magic items, the Feat effectively scales.


There are also numerous quirky feats like Ancestral Relic, Chosen of Evil, Dragonmarked, and Combat Focus, which effectively scale with your level or scale with the number of feats you take within a certain category.

D&D also includes a huge number of feats that just plain suck. This was part of the design philosophy - to make D&D more like Magic the Gathering. It provides players with a huge array of options, and rewards rules mastery. The solution is simple - avoid taking cruddy feats.

Unfortunately there are more good feats available to casters than to fighters. I would like some good chains that can compete with power attack, otherwise it just becomes a feat tax and you end up building every fighter the same way.

thompur
2010-08-20, 02:07 PM
Here's a big list of scaling combat feats (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_Combat_Feats). They scale by BAB (+0, +1, +6, +11, and +16).

Just in case you're interested.

Also, your scaling progressions for Weapon Focus and Toughness are good, though I'd personally tone them down a bit. IMO, weapon focus would be 1 + 1/5 level for a Tier 3 feat, and Toughness would be fine at +2HP/HD or ECL.

That's exactly what I was talking about, and looking for.

Thanks, Aran!!

Aran Banks
2010-08-20, 02:34 PM
:smallwink: No problem.

Person_Man
2010-08-20, 02:35 PM
Unfortunately there are more good feats available to casters than to fighters. I would like some good chains that can compete with power attack, otherwise it just becomes a feat tax and you end up building every fighter the same way.

Melee combo guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026).

Here are a few feat chains you might want to look at that are good for strait Fighter builds. Some have a few "taxes" on them, but most don't:

Combat Reflexes + Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Knockback + Shock Trooper
Combat Reflexes + Combat Exp + Improved Trip + Knock-Down
Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered Skill Trick + Zhentarim Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) add on
Abominable Form + any other Vile feats.
Chosen of Evil + any other Vile feats.
Combat Reflexes + Stand Still
Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Boomerang Daze
Power Attack + Improved Sunder + Weapon Focus + Dire Flail Smash
Power Attack + Improved Sunder + Combat Brute
Improved Unarmed Strike + Improved Grapple + Scorpion's Grasp
Mage Slayer + Blind Fight + Pierce Magical Concealment
Power Attack + Brutal Strike
Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability
Dodge + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit
Shield Bash + Shield Charge + Shield Slam
Fearless Destiny
Ancestral Relic
Arcane Schooling
Saddleback
Stone Power
Tunnel Fighter
Winged Warrior

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 02:40 PM
Melee combo guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026).

Here are a few feat chains you might want to look at that are good for strait Fighter builds. Some have a few "taxes" on them, but most don't:

Combat Reflexes + Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Knockback + Shock Trooper
Combat Reflexes + Combat Exp + Improved Trip + Knock-Down
Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered Skill Trick + Zhentarim Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) add on
Abominable Form + any other Vile feats.
Chosen of Evil + any other Vile feats.
Combat Reflexes + Stand Still
Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Boomerang Daze
Power Attack + Improved Sunder + Weapon Focus + Dire Flail Smash
Power Attack + Improved Sunder + Combat Brute
Improved Unarmed Strike + Improved Grapple + Scorpion's Grasp
Mage Slayer + Blind Fight + Pierce Magical Concealment
Power Attack + Brutal Strike
Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability
Dodge + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit
Shield Bash + Shield Charge + Shield Slam
Fearless Destiny
Ancestral Relic
Arcane Schooling
Saddleback
Stone Power
Tunnel Fighter
Winged Warrior


Still, I'd prefer something that didn't rely on power attack so much. I personally think TWF fighters are a lot cooler than sword-and-board, but there's no good way to optimize a TWF to have near the damage output. Especially if you don't want to buy 5 different books.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 02:44 PM
Still, I'd prefer something that didn't rely on power attack so much. I personally think TWF fighters are a lot cooler than sword-and-board, but there's no good way to optimize a TWF to have near the damage output. Especially if you don't want to buy 5 different books.Well, full SA with Craven should be enough for most games.

[Edit]: And of course, you can PA with TWF too, though without Revenant Blade or something it's not quite so good.

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 02:49 PM
Well, full SA with Craven should be enough for most games.

[Edit]: And of course, you can PA with TWF too, though without Revenant Blade or something it's not quite so good.

Possibly. I wasn't really thinking of the sneaky twf type, more the come close enough and I unleash a storm of attacks on you type. And anyways PA is just about a feat tax for a melee fighter the way it is.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 02:53 PM
Possibly. I wasn't really thinking of the sneaky twf type, more the come close enough and I unleash a storm of attacks on you type.Yeah? You don't need to sneak, just win initiative or flank.
And anyways PA is just about a feat tax for a melee fighter the way it is.Quite so.

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 02:57 PM
Yeah? You don't need to sneak, just win initiative or flank.

Still the wrong idea. The idea is to make a FIGHTER that gets lots of attacks by virtue of his war training, and does somewhat decent damage per hit, if not as good as the sword-and-board. You shouldn't need to get another class feature added on just to make the fighter work in a way that ought to as a fighter. TWF archetype fighters are not sneakers trying to find weak points, they're solo melee combatants as much as the sword-and-board are. If you need to add in SA damage there's something wrong with the system.

Edit: Especially if you need a feat like craven that goes totally against the personality of a TWF melee archetype.

Person_Man
2010-08-20, 02:59 PM
Still, I'd prefer something that didn't rely on power attack so much. I personally think TWF fighters are a lot cooler than sword-and-board, but there's no good way to optimize a TWF to have near the damage output. Especially if you don't want to buy 5 different books.

Have you read the Tome of Battle? Because it has plenty of toys for TWF builds. Also, it's my opinion that TWF should focus on ability damage and status effects instead of pure damage.

Greenish
2010-08-20, 03:01 PM
Still the wrong idea. The idea is to make a FIGHTER that gets lots of attacks by virtue of his war training, and does somewhat decent damage per hit, if not as good as the sword-and-board. You shouldn't need to get another class feature added on just to make the fighter work in a way that ought to as a fighter.Daring Outlaw can be a fighter (or a samurai!).

Besides, how is a TWF fighter doing less damage than S'n'B?

WarKitty
2010-08-20, 03:01 PM
Have you read the Tome of Battle? Because it has plenty of toys for TWF builds. Also, it's my opinion that TWF should focus on ability damage and status effects instead of pure damage.

Read through it briefly. I got pretty confused about a third of the way in, it seems like a lot to keep track of. This was my point in the other thread about how limiting the system can be - it's really hard to build a plain damage-dealing TWF fighter, despite that being a common archetype that a lot of people may want to play.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-20, 03:41 PM
There are plenty of feats that scale.
Add to that list:

Craven: +1 point of sneak attack damage per character level.
Savvy Rogue: provides a benefit for each Rogue special ability you later acquire.

Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 03:50 PM
Tome of Battle really adds a lot to the TWF arch-type. It gives means of +dmg that allow you to wield two weapons without the fear that your weapons won't have enough power behind them. It gives you a means of being mobile while still getting more than a single attack. Heck, there's even a cool mechanic that lets you store up a series of attacks to unleash a deadly barage of a full attack the next round.

ToB makes the TWF "Fighter" archtype possible.

subject42
2010-08-20, 04:00 PM
Heck, there's even a cool mechanic that lets you store up a series of attacks to unleash a deadly barage of a full attack the next round.

Woah. Where is that?

Snake-Aes
2010-08-20, 04:03 PM
Woah. Where is that?

Stormguard Warrior can give up on AoOs to get more attack and damage to all attacks next round.
Similarly he can do 0-damage touch attacks to get more damage on all attacks next round.
Ultimately, a robilar warblade with a greatsword will pack a huge punch if he gets a good row of AoOs and an Avalanche of Blades(or a warblade with 2 weapons, a bunch of tc maneuvers and Time Stands Still)

Tharck
2010-08-23, 09:24 AM
The "Collision" enchant from the Magic Item Compendium gives +5 Damage to your weapon. It is a +2 Enchant. It's highly viable for TWFs.

dextercorvia
2010-08-23, 11:38 AM
The "Collision" enchant from the Magic Item Compendium gives +5 Damage to your weapon. It is a +2 Enchant. It's highly viable for TWFs.

That doesn't sound that great to me.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-23, 11:49 AM
That doesn't sound that great to me.

Fixed-value bonuses like collision multiply on crit. Most of the time, TWF builds focus on high-crit weapons. 19-20/*3 means that 5 turns into a 15 10% of the time.

As for scalar feats? I did that already. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2241690#post2241690)

...twice. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99519)

thompur
2010-08-23, 12:04 PM
How about something as simple as a class feature for fighters that adds their BAB to damage as well. It would be untyped, so it would stack with any other bonus. And would multiply on crits. And you could take a feat that let you apply it to ranged weapon attacks as well.
(just spitballin') :smallamused:

jiriku
2010-08-23, 12:24 PM
Read through it briefly. I got pretty confused about a third of the way in, it seems like a lot to keep track of. This was my point in the other thread about how limiting the system can be - it's really hard to build a plain damage-dealing TWF fighter, despite that being a common archetype that a lot of people may want to play.

Keep reading. If you like melee fighters with variety, ToB adds enough to the game to be worth the time invested in learning it.

dextercorvia
2010-08-23, 12:28 PM
Fixed-value bonuses like collision multiply on crit. Most of the time, TWF builds focus on high-crit weapons. 19-20/*3 means that 5 turns into a 15 10% of the time.

As for scalar feats? I did that already. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2241690#post2241690)

...twice. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99519)

So that is an expected value of 6 damage per attack. That still seems low for a +2 bonus, and not "a reliable source of bonus damage".

Tharck
2010-08-23, 12:57 PM
So that is an expected value of 6 damage per attack. That still seems low for a +2 bonus, and not "a reliable source of bonus damage".

Personally I enjoy Collision, elemental damage enchants are too hit or miss. And placing it high crit weapons such as Kukri, Scimater, and Falchion with imp crit makes it to me a weapon and enchant of choice.

There's also a feat in the Draconomicon that ignores 5 points of DR. Also a good choice for TWF.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 01:03 PM
So that is an expected value of 6 damage per attack. That still seems low for a +2 bonus, and not "a reliable source of bonus damage".Well, it obviously is a reliable source of bonus damage, and TWF can't really rely on PA, so they'll have to scrounge up what they can get. +5 for each attacks (which TWF makes many) which is multiplied when you crit (which many TWF builds aim to maximize anyhow) is decent.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-23, 01:30 PM
Well, it obviously is a reliable source of bonus damage, and TWF can't really rely on PA, so they'll have to scrounge up what they can get. +5 for each attacks (which TWF makes many) which is multiplied when you crit (which many TWF builds aim to maximize anyhow) is decent.

It also helps with the minimum damage requirement for Knockdown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and similar feats.

Eldan
2010-08-23, 01:34 PM
I did the rewritten core feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150568), which introduced a few changes and made them scaling with level and double with fighter level. In the end, it's a helpful fix, but doesn't really do much to make fighters more useful, it just gives them bigger numbers.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-23, 02:18 PM
There's a thematic problem with D&D3.5 TWF.

Historical and fictional TWF has almost ALWAYS been two mismatched weapons. Rapier and main gauche, katana and wakizashi, ext...

Two pistols in fiction is about the only time other than D&D inspired fiction that anyone uses two identical weapons.

Counter-example: Lloyd from Tales of Symphonia wields two katanas.

Eldan
2010-08-23, 02:24 PM
Some of the turtles wield two identical weapons as well. No idea why that example came to my mind right now, since I've never watched, played or read anything turtles-related.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-23, 03:02 PM
Historical and fictional TWF has almost ALWAYS been two mismatched weapons. Rapier and main gauche, katana and wakizashi, ext...

Historical fighting also doesn't include weapons that light on fire, giant lizards that breathe lightning, extraplanar travel, floating fleshballs with eyestalks out the top and a giant central eye, or anthropomorphic tigers with their hands backwards and who have a startling grasp on arcane powers.

"It doesn't work that way in reality" is an invalid argument if you're going to ignore the existence of magic.

Eldan
2010-08-23, 03:13 PM
Still... having two mismatched weapons does seem to make more sense if we look at it away from the rules. One with a little more reach and an armour-piercing one, as an example. Or a parrying tool offhand, as many styles have.

Even in D&D: if it weren't for things like weapon focus, having, say, a bludgeoning and a piercing weapon, for different kinds of damage reduction, seems like a good idea.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-23, 03:20 PM
Still... having two mismatched weapons does seem to make more sense if we look at it away from the rules. One with a little more reach and an armour-piercing one, as an example. Or a parrying tool offhand, as many styles have.

Even in D&D: if it weren't for things like weapon focus, having, say, a bludgeoning and a piercing weapon, for different kinds of damage reduction, seems like a good idea.

You all seem to be forgetting one thing: Rule of Cool.

In all honesty, in fantasy, that's all that two weapon fighting is about. "You wield one longsword? Well I wield two! That makes me twice the badass that you are!"

WinWin
2010-08-23, 03:27 PM
Two knives are fairly common. Butterfly swords come in pairs. Sun & Moon blades come in pairs. Chai/Sai come in pairs. Kali sticks come in pairs.