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View Full Version : [3.5] Extreme disappointment in Virtuoso



Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 10:48 AM
So, my Halfling Bard is getting close to the level where he'll be starting the Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8 chain. I was reading Virtuoso again last night, since it had been a while, and man, that class is lackluster. I mean, Sublime Chord is bad for class features, but dang. The only really redeaming feature of that class is the 6+int skill points and it progresses your Inspire Courage. On top of that, 1/2 BAB and 1 good save? Shananananananananigans I say!

The first 4 levels are pretty much dead. Making a Dip check with a Perform check is terrible, given that Diplomacy has more skill synergies and is easier to boost then Perform. Also, it just feels awkward (my feelings for you are best expressed by the words to the song Heat of the Moment, by ASIA).

2nd level is dead...blah

3rd level gives the ability to auto stabilize fallen foes between -1 and -10...wow. That ability is soooo amazing! Well, it might have been, if I got it at ECL1. Except with the build, I'm getting it at ECL13. If something drops you at ECL13, there is a good chance you ain't gettin back up, song or not. Plus, that song takes a standard action to start! Bullcrap, I'm a 12th level Sorcerer (effectively), I have better stuff to do than start a crappy Virtouoso song....like cast 6th level spells (Otto's anyone?).

4th level...dead.

5th level, jarring song. This had HUGE potential to be cool. Enemy spellcasters have to make a concentration check to cast when I'm singing this jam. I can sustain it for 10 rounds. Except while I'm doing that, I'm not using Inspire Courage or Dragonfire. I could linger a Dragonfire, but now I'm eating up my first 2 standard actions, and its only about a 50% chance of working against an average spellcaster 2-3 levels higher, depending on the difference between my Cha and his Con. And the worst culprit? Range: 30 feet. WTF!!!!!! Even if I do it adjacent to a caster, he can most likely just wander out of my radius and continue doing his crap. Naw, I'd rather just cast a 7th level spell...

6th level...dead

7th level, song of fury. Ok, standard action to give everyone in my party a rage effect. Wooo....its a chained 2nd level spell. That might have been good when I was level 5, but at ECL17, you gotta be kidding me. I have 8th level spells now, and +4 Str/+4 Con is looking relatively lackluster, especially since I can't affect myself. This is bullcrap.

8th level...dead

9th level, mindbending melody, finally getting some where. Dominate Person, 9 times per day. Only issue here is, I could already cast Dominate Person 8 levels ago, the CL then to cast it is the same as my CL now, and Dominate Person can be used on HOSTILE targets, which is most people you are fighting. Mindbending melody requires fascination first, which can't be used in combat. Better NPC ability than a PC ability, IMO, and only really useful for picking up hordes of thralls to absorb full attacks and spring traps.

10th level, revealing melody, again, too little, too late. While a material componentless True Seeing for your whole party is decent, again, it only works while you are playing/singing, making it tough to put up with Inspire Courage, and it doesn't linger like normal bardic music does, so if you get dropped, stunned, dazed, disabled, silenced, or whatever, the lights go out and everyone is screwed. Plus, you know...ECL20. Way too little, way too late.

So yea...I understand that its probably slightly better than continuing Sublime Chord casting past 2, but dang does it suck. I think I'd rather just say screw music and go into something like Abjurant Champion (getting Shield from Lyric Thamaturge) or something more full-castery like Iot7V or even Divine Oracle for Evasion. Its just soooooo depressing.

Draz74
2010-08-20, 11:21 AM
I recently thought of using Virtuoso on an Intelligence-based build:

Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1/Prestige Bard 2/Virtuoso 10.

Gets a little more use out of Virtuoso's skill selection (since it's a full skillmonkey build, with high INT and Trapfinding and so on), and needs the Virtuoso's progression of Bardic Music and Inspire Courage a lot more than a Bard-based build does. And tanks BAB to the point that it doesn't care if the Virtuoso has Poor progression.

Great flavor. Still (barely) gets 9th-level spells.

Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 03:45 PM
I guess my biggest beef is that everyone states that because Sublime Chord has no meaningful class abilities past 2, its universally acceptable to dip Virtuoso2 prior to starting SC, then using Virt+8 to finish off your Sublime Chord casting because Virtuoso actually has class features. Virtuoso, however, has crap for abilities too. The only thing it has is a decent skill list and 6+ SP per level and gives you a little progression on Inspire Courage (although it doesn't give any more uses/day). I want MOAR!

ErrantX
2010-08-20, 03:52 PM
Then turn to homebrew or house rules, I'm afraid, if you're trying to continue that bardic music progression. Either house rule that Lyric Thaumaturge advances Sublime Chord as well as it's kind of like bardic magic... kinda... and then you've got a good class. Or just homebrew something up that makes sense. I see your pain though.

-X

tyckspoon
2010-08-20, 03:57 PM
(although it doesn't give any more uses/day). I want MOAR!

Your point is still good, but.. uh, yes it does. Bardic Music uses/day are advanced in the exact same sentence where it tells you Inspire Courage is progressed.

The Virtuoso advice seems to be mostly just because there aren't a lot of other suitable options (that and it's dirt-easy for a Bard to get into.) You can go for any of the traditional arcane prestiges, sure, but then you sacrifice your bardic progression and end up with a build that may as well have been a Sorcerer.

Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 04:06 PM
I don't mind ending up a Sorcerer. I did my Dragonfire schtick between levels 1 and (I'm 8 now). I'll do it for another 2 levels. After that, I want to be a full blown Sorcerer, which is what Sublime Chord does. Dragonfire Inspiration will be an afterthrough as I lay waste to the battlefield with Freezing Fog and Otto's Dance Dance Revolution (PERFECT!). My DM banned most of the good sources of bonus IC, so I still have the same 3d6 I had at level 3 (+1 base +1 Insp Boost +1 Songs of the Heart). I'm comfortable shedding that. I am seriously considering progressing SC with Iot7V though, although lighting my next 2 feats on fire will kinda suck.

Curious side question...Lyric Spell (CAdv) allows me to burn BM attempts to cast spells for X+1 uses per spell, even if I'm out of spell slots. Would Lyric Spell work for Sublime Chord slots? Could I burn 10 BM uses to gain an extra 9th level spell use when I hit SC19?

tyckspoon
2010-08-20, 04:19 PM
Lyric Spell: Any arcane spell that you know and can cast spontaneously.

So.. yup. It requires bardic music uses to power, but does not require using it on actual Bard spells. A Sorcerer, Beguiler, Duskblade, or Dread Necromancer could also use it if they could find their way into having Bardic Music.

Draz74
2010-08-20, 04:30 PM
My DM banned most of the good sources of bonus IC, so I still have the same 3d6 I had at level 3 (+1 base +1 Insp Boost +1 Songs of the Heart).

Badge of Valor is banned? Lame. :smallyuk:

Words of Creation, I can understand banning ... and I think the Bard can actually do just fine with Inspire Courage without it, if all these other options are accessible.

Any other bans?

Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 04:32 PM
Anything in Spell Compendium that didn't appear in a Complete book...which is also lame.

I'd kill a thousand orcs for the ability to take Benign Transposition as my 1st level LT secret...

Also, the only reason Song of the Heart and Dragonfire Inspiration aren't banned is because they got grandfathered in before the DM applied the book banana.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-20, 04:38 PM
I like virtuoso because it's low-key. I agree it's not that impressive in a sublime chord build, since as you said, spellcasting is THE best thing you can be doing on any given turn. In a build with stunted spellcasting, virtuoso's class features suddeny look a bit better.

Keld Denar
2010-08-20, 04:43 PM
I guess the thing that I was kinda railing against is the concept that Bard8/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8 is touted around as the bardliest bard to ever sing a ballad. Really, you get jack crap for class abilities after 12, and the best you have to look forward to are your (albeit) awesome wizard spells and half priced bard spells (Otto's at level 6!).

Really, its not any better than Bard10/SublimeChord10, or even Bard6/LyricThamaturge4/SublimeChord10 or similar. 2 lousy skill points and 4 bardic music attempts is all you gain for the loss of a caster level (which still hurts even after you get into SC, since your CL will be 1 behind unless you take Practiced Spellcaster)

Starbuck_II
2010-08-20, 04:44 PM
Anything in Spell Compendium that didn't appear in a Complete book...which is also lame.

I'd kill a thousand orcs for the ability to take Benign Transposition as my 1st level LT secret...

Also, the only reason Song of the Heart and Dragonfire Inspiration aren't banned is because they got grandfathered in before the DM applied the book banana.

Banana? Buy a monkey to defeat the banana so bannings end?

Greenish
2010-08-20, 04:49 PM
I guess the thing that I was kinda railing against is the concept that Bard8/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8 is touted around as the bardliest bard to ever sing a ballad. Really, you get jack crap for class abilities after 12, and the best you have to look forward to are your (albeit) awesome wizard spells and half priced bard spells (Otto's at level 6!).It might be popular since it advances all three central bard things: magic, music and skills.

Eldariel
2010-08-20, 09:37 PM
I guess the thing that I was kinda railing against is the concept that Bard8/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8 is touted around as the bardliest bard to ever sing a ballad. Really, you get jack crap for class abilities after 12, and the best you have to look forward to are your (albeit) awesome wizard spells and half priced bard spells (Otto's at level 6!).

Really, its not any better than Bard10/SublimeChord10, or even Bard6/LyricThamaturge4/SublimeChord10 or similar. 2 lousy skill points and 4 bardic music attempts is all you gain for the loss of a caster level (which still hurts even after you get into SC, since your CL will be 1 behind unless you take Practiced Spellcaster)

Inspire Courage is the big thing. That and lots of Bardic Music-uses. Really, what do you expect? Virtuoso is used because it advances Inspire Courage and any spellcasting (unlike e.g. Lyric Thaumaturge which only advances BARD casting) and has 6+Int skills. Tho Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Virtuoso 8 is much better 'cause you get Inspire Greatness which scales with Vest of Legends to the level you need, and does dirrrrty things (the latter Bardic Musics aren't worth your while anyways so you don't even care that you lose them); I don't get why everyone is going Bard 8 here. Makes zero sense. But yeah, Bard 9/Virt 1/SC 2/Virt 8 is like a no-frills Bard 20 with 9th level spells and all the good songs. That's why it's the quintessential Bard; it's Bard except gains the couple of things a Bard lacks.

Virtuoso is the Eldritch Knight here; it doesn't gain any stellar abilities of its own but it combines all the things you care about. That makes it worthwhile. Honestly, two points of Inspire Courage is quickly +4d6 damage from Dragonfire Inspiration, +4 damage and +4 to hit from normal Inspiration; when multiplied for the whole party, that can be quite a lot.

El Dorado
2010-08-20, 10:56 PM
Bard/sublime chord/virtuoso build looks a lot more interesting than pure bard (which I played up to 13th level; had I to do it over, I'd do the SC/virtuoso thing). Everyone else has covered all the big points (music, magic, skills) so I'll just add that maybe you can work up an extra class feature based on what you're getting (e.g. burning uses of bardic music to double or triple the range of jarring song or to use sustaining song as a swift action). After all, a bard must sacrifice for his art. :smallwink: