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Agrippa
2010-08-20, 11:07 PM
I thought about it for a while and decided to post up my own house rules for your viewing and discussion.

1. When making a full attack any character may as much as they want in a round so long is it doesn't exceed the character's move rate. This includes movement inbetween attacks. Use of the Cleave feat adds to your movement per round.
2. All psionic powers are refered to as sorcery and all psionic classes are similarly reflavored. Psion becomes sorcerer, psychic warrior is mystic knight, ardent is battle magi (warrior preist/sorcerer) and the psychic rogue is called the thaumaturgic assassin.
3. Ardents/battle magi may not take opposing alignment mantles unless they themselves are neutral on that axis.
4. Polymorph grants the creature's physical ability bonuses not the scores. It also only allows for transforming into creatures from tiny to huge in size.
5. While magic items can be bought and sold, the availability of specific enchanted objects in specific cities varries. You are not guaranteed any particular magic item or weapon. If you want a perticular item or weapon then I'll let you specifically quest for it. Whether the quest involves combat and exploration, haggling or just plain old theft is up to you.
6. Only offensive and utilty spells can be enchanted into wands while only healing and personal or single target buff spells can be made into potions. At the same time all level limits are lifted from both wands and potions.
7. Also priestly magical items are unusable by divine magic users opposed to the crafter's deity. This extends to scrolls too.
8. The Brew Potion feat allows you to brew any kind of potion you have the proper ingrediants for. You don't have to be part of a particular class to brew potions of its spells.
9. There is no Conjuration (Healing) subschool. Its dead and buried now. Instead we have the Necromancy (Healing) subschool. There's a big difference.
10. The Cure x Wounds line of spells heals a number of hitpoints worth of damage equal to the spell's minimum caster level in d8s. So while Cure Light Wounds and its mass version would be left the same both normal and Mass Cure Moderate Wound would heal 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). Cure Serious Wounds heals 5d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25) while Cure Critical Wounds heals points of damage 7d8 +1 point per caster level (maximum +35). It won't overpower them by any means, just make them that much more useful.
11. Both Natural Spell and Persistant Spell are now what I like to call Superhero tiered feats. That means you have to be at least 16th level to learn either feat.
12. The base amount treasure acquired is doubled. This however only applies to "lair" found treasure. Individual treasure is typically half to full standard per monster/NPC. The term lair could also is expanded to mean storeroom or vault. This means that in a particualrly well-funded and maintained thieves' den or bank you might find dozens of such "lairs" if you would. The encounter level the for stash like this is typically equal to leader's or manager's level or is baed on the difficulty of theft. In some cases you can add to the treasure trove level based on the owner's social status. NPC aristocrats have a wealth level bonus equal to one fifth thier level.
13. The costs of all potions, as opposed to grenades, are now one fifth the DMG/SRD costs. So now your 50 potions of cure light wounds only cost 500 gold pieces.
14. All potions are divided into two major categories, potions and grenades. Potions are limited to necromancy (other than clone or trap the soul) and transmution, while grenades are limited to evocation and certain non-summoning conjuration. Evard's black tentacles don't count.
15. The warblade and crusader classes do not exist. Thier maneuver progressions are kept and are given to the fighter class instead. In other words fighter is a full initiating class with either warblade or crusader maneuvers and maneuver progression. Also, paladins automatically get crusader progression while rangers get warblade progression.
16. The barbarian class no longer exists. Instead Rage and its improved versions are now fighter bonus feats.
17. Weapon specialization is a worthwhile class ability and not a crappy feat.
18. I'll also make most prestige class abilities into feats for whatever base classes are best suited to them.
19. Divine Metamagic does not exist.
20. Feats are gained every two levels after level one. This doesn't include the first level feat or any bonus feats.
21. Nightsticks do not exist either.
22. Smite evil uses Pathfinder rules and grants the weapon used the ghost touch property.
23. Lay on Hands heals a number of hit points per day equal to paladin level x Charisma bonus x 2.
24. Paladinic remove disease and disease immunity affects all non-Godlike tier diseases.
25. At 13th level a paladins weekly uses of remove disease are multiplied by the paladin's Charisma modifier.
26. Paladins gain spellcasting ability at 6th level and have a caster level equal to that of a cleric five levels lower.
27. Any divine spell from 0 to 4th allowed to a Good aligned cleric is allowed to paladins, within reason. This is in addition to paladin only spells.
28. Paladins are spontaneous caster and use the spellcasting progression below.

Paladin spells per day
{table=head]Paladin Level|0 level|1st level|2nd level|3rd level|4th level
6th|5|3|-|-|-
7th|6|4|-|-|-
8th|6|5|3|-|-
9th|6|6|4|-|-
10th|6|6|5|3|-
11th|6|6|6|4|-
12th|6|6|6|5|3
13th|6|6|6|6|4
14th|6|6|6|6|5
15th|6|6|6|6|6
16th|6|6|6|6|6[/table]
29. At 7th level a paladin's divine grace extends to a 10' radius. At 12th level both Aura of Courage and Divine Grace extend to a 30' radius.

More to come.

EdroGrimshell
2010-08-20, 11:41 PM
This should probably be in the roleplaying games section.

Agrippa
2010-08-21, 12:10 AM
This should probably be in the roleplaying games section.

Then I'll ask the mods to move it. Mods, will you please move this thread into Roleplaying for me? Thank you.

Temotei
2010-08-21, 12:12 AM
Then I'll ask the mods to move it. Mods, will you please move this thread into Roleplaying for me? Thank you.

This post makes me laugh--in a good way.

Reporting the original post makes it easier for them to find it, however, and you can expect a response sooner.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 07:29 AM
I'm not sure about #6, namely, making some of the most available and economic out-of-combat healing unavailable. Do you want the cleric to burn those slots on heals?

[Edit]: #1 is a thing of great beauty.

Agrippa
2010-08-21, 12:45 PM
On #6, while wands under these house rules can't be used for healing, potions, divine scrolls and staves can. As for house rules on magical healing you'll just have to wait a few seconds.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 01:18 PM
On #6, while wands under these house rules can't be used for healing, potions, divine scrolls and staves can.Yes, but none of those are as affordable as wands. (A wand of CLW or Lesser Vigor is 750 gp, 50 scrolls of those would be 1250 gp and 50 potions are 2500 gp.)

Agrippa
2010-08-22, 02:18 AM
I'm not that concerned about the fact that wands are less expensive than potions in the long run. It just feels like it makes more sense to me, that's all.

Greenish
2010-08-22, 08:42 AM
I'm not that concerned about the fact that wands are less expensive than potions in the long run.Yes, and I'm saying that maybe you ought to be, unless you want to have the cleric (or whoever has 'em) burn their spells to top people off between combats.

The wands were one of the more affordable and easy out of combat healing methods. Removing them has consequences you might not have thought of.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-08-22, 08:46 AM
He may intentionally be trying to nerf clerics, though. Making them paranoid about spending spell slots could do the trick, or at least discourage too many spell shenanigans.

Greenish
2010-08-22, 08:48 AM
He may intentionally be trying to nerf clerics, though. Making them paranoid about spending spell slots could do the trick, or at least discourage too many spell shenanigans.…Or encourage DMM persisted circle of vigors.

Kesnit
2010-08-22, 12:12 PM
…Or encourage DMM persisted circle of vigors.

Add a houserule that says PC's cannot take Persistent Spell. Big nerf to Tier 1 classes because it makes it harder to run around with all buffs up all the time.

Agrippa
2010-08-22, 12:34 PM
Add a houserule that says PC's cannot take Persistent Spell. Big nerf to Tier 1 classes because it makes it harder to run around with all buffs up all the time.

Good idea Kesnit.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 12:58 PM
I don't know if I'd wanna play if I was told, no you cant use Persist on your spell so you only cast one Bull's Strength a day, and get to spend your time in encounters that you didn't have time to prepare for casting Bull's Strength/Eagle's Splendor, etc.

A limit to the effects would be, or a limit to the amount of turn attempts a cleric could have as well, considering that the cost for persist is 7 turn attempts, sounds like a better idea to me.

FMArthur
2010-08-22, 01:11 PM
I thought about it for a while and decided to post up my own house rules for your viewing and discussion.

1. When making a full attack any character may take any number of move actions in a round so long is it doesn't exceed the character's move rate. Use of the Cleave feat adds to your movement per round.
You may want to make this say "doesn't exceed the character's total move rate". I assume this rule is intended to let players move between attacks in a Full Attack action, but you don't actually say so. If this is not the case I don't see the point. You should also differentiate between movement and Move Actions, which can refer to any number of things that are not actually movement and can still be done infinitely due to your rule.


2. All psionic powers are refered to as sorcery and all psionic classes are similarly reflavored. Psion becomes sorcerer, psychic warrior is mystic knight, ardent is battle magi (warrior preist/sorcerer) and the psychic rogue is called the thaumaturgic assassin.
If you feel like you need to. :smallconfused:


3. Ardents/battle magi may not take opposing alignment mantles unless they themselves are neutral on that axis.
This is unnecessary and while I can easily think of a reason why a character might have opposite alignment mantles, I can't quite imagine what train of thought led to thinking this was something that needed to be addressed at all.


4. Polymorph grants the creature's physical ability bonuses not the scores. It also only allows for transforming into creatures from tiny to huge in size.
The bonuses is strictly a buff to Polymorph and its variations, since all monsters are assumed to have an array of all 11s and 10s; their bonuses are all quite large and will look a lot scarier on a PC's stat array. The sizing makes some sense but is almost entirely irrelevant if you're trying to fix the unbalanced nature of the spell.


5. While magic items can be bought and sold, the availability of specific enchanted objects in specific cities varries. You are not guaranteed any particular magic item or weapon. If you want a perticular item or weapon then I'll let you specifically quest for it. Whether the quest involves combat and exploration, haggling or just plain old theft is up to you.
This is somewhat normal. It's less time in a dungeon and more time interacting with the campaign world, which is nice.

6. Only offensive and utilty spells can be enchanted into wands while only healing and personal or single target buff spells can be made into potions. At the same time all level limits are lifted from both wands and potions.
The removal of level limits make this very overpowering.


7. Also priestly magical items are unusable by divine magic users opposed to the crafter's deity. This extends to scrolls too.
Because crafting and magic item use needs to be a more convoluted process...


8. The Brew Potion feat allows you to brew any kind of potion you have the proper ingrediants for. You don't have to be part of a particular class to brew potions of its spells.
Pretty cool.


9. There is no Conjuration (Healing) subschool. Its dead and buried now. Instead we have the Necromancy (Healing) subschool. There's a big difference.
Taking away Conjuration's smallest and most insignificant toy does little for it, but Necromancy dealing with positive/negative energy instead of just negative is nice. This is a bizarrely common houserule considering how little it affects anything.


10. The Cure x Wounds line of spells heals a number of hitpoints worth of damage equal to the spell's minimum caster level in d8s. So while Cure Light Wounds and its mass version would be left the same both normal and Mass Cure Moderate Wound would heal 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). Cure Serious Wounds heals 5d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25) while Cure Critical Wounds heals points of damage 7d8 +1 point per caster level (maximum +35). It won't overpower them by any means, just make them that much more useful.
Cool. This one actually makes things a bit simpler if I understand it properly.

Agrippa
2010-08-29, 06:21 PM
New house rules are up.

Nidogg
2010-08-29, 06:28 PM
Dont really like the prestige classes are feats rules we take prestige classes for getting rid of those pesky dead levels or adding some variaty to classes wich are usually stuck in one role, unless you give feats much more frequently or after levle 5 (the usual entry point for PRCs) start adding "talent points" which can be given to cativate certain class abilitys, of course all the rules for this would have to be a hefty homebrew hijiinks but it could work.....

Agrippa
2010-08-29, 06:34 PM
Dont really like the prestige classes are feats rules we take prestige classes for getting rid of those pesky dead levels or adding some variaty to classes wich are usually stuck in one role, unless you give feats much more frequently or after levle 5 (the usual entry point for PRCs) start adding "talent points" which can be given to cativate certain class abilitys, of course all the rules for this would have to be a hefty homebrew hijiinks but it could work.....

I was thinking one feat per every two levels plus the first level feat. Pretty much how Pathfinder handles it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-29, 06:49 PM
10. I just allow the same creature to be targeted multiple times with a Mass Cure/Inflict, as there is a limit to the number of targets it can have. It basically multiplies the effect on that creature by the number of times you choose it as a target, but the +CL at the end caps out for the total as normal. For example Mass Cure Light Wounds is 1d8+CL (max +25), so if a 10th level character targets the same creature twice it would be 2d8+20, if the same creature were targeted three times it would be 3d8+25 at the max, if the same creature were targeted four times it would be 4d8+25, etc. It actually turns the spells into a very significant heal for multiple characters (or significant damage for the Inflicts), and definitely worth casting in an emergency despite the spell level.

14. You misspelled tentacles, and at first glance I thought the n was an s.... Hilarious.

19. Beware of Illumians (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2) with Naenhoon, though its 2/day limit is considerably better balanced. Another 'fix' would be to just say Night Sticks don't exist or their effect doesn't stack with itself or with Extra Turning.


It all looks pretty decent, I don't really see any glaring holes in any of that. It will definitely change some players' strategies and change up a few things people take for granted, it's usually a good thing to try something different. I hope you have a fun game!

FMArthur
2010-08-29, 07:44 PM
All of my complaints still stand. Almost every single rule, even the okay ones, needs an explanation of why? Most don't change the game much or have a forseeable positive effect. Please, please explain what you are trying to accomplish with each one of these.

#1 is still missing a word or two that actually make it do anything even though you changed it.
#3 is still illogical, insignificant, and 100% unnecessary.
#4's Polymorph buff still makes me scratch my head in wonder.
#6 just adds more broken power to spellcasting in the removal of caps (why?)
#7 is still pointless unnecessary complication in magic items.
#9 still asserts that there is a "big difference" from one of your most insignificant changes...

As for the new stuff:

#12 I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here, not even an inkling. It's very unclear.
#13, in conjunction with #6, is absurdly overpowering. READ THE SPELL DESCRIPTIONS FOR HIGH-LEVEL SPELLS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. Anyone who takes advantage of this will break your campaign to pieces with no effort whatsoever. Without #6 this would actually be kind of cool if still a little unbalancing.
#14 mitigates this by a tiny amount. Absurdly broken cheese is not prevented at all.
#15 so essentially Crusaders get the choice of gestalting with Paladin or Fighter, and Warblades get the choice of gestalting with Ranger or Fighter. You can describe it as the other way around, but Warblade and Crusader are going to be providing the bulk of each class's abilities, not Fighter, Ranger or Paladin. It's a fairly unnecessary buff to well-balanced classes.
#17 "This bad ability is now good" is a really well-explained houserule. Really. :smalltongue: What changes are you making to it to make it good? Do you mean that making it a class feature alone would make WS good (bahahaha)?
#18 As usual it's completely unclear where you're going with this. Why? What is your goal? It's a ton of work and you're not saying why you think it's worthwhile.
#21 Either DMM or Nightsticks need to be dealt with, and personally I'd keep DMM to ditch Nightsticks. You don't need to deal with both, though. As a player I would be fairly annoyed to be presented with a huge houserule list I had to read that was bogged down with pointless ineffectual changes. Try to keep it as concise as possible and get rid of things that aren't necessary.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-29, 08:34 PM
#15 so essentially Crusaders get the choice of gestalting with Paladin or Fighter, and Warblades get the choice of gestalting with Ranger or Fighter. You can describe it as the other way around, but Warblade and Crusader are going to be providing the bulk of each class's abilities, not Fighter, Ranger or Paladin. It's a fairly unnecessary buff to well-balanced classes.

He's not giving out class features, only the maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, stances known, and recovery methods. The Warblade's Int-bonus effects, Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Aptitude, etc. is no longer granted by any class. The Crusader's Steely Resolve and other abilities are no longer granted by any class. While the maneuvers and stances of these classes make up an overwhelming majority of their useful class features, it ends up making the classes to which they are applied that much more useful rather than gestalting them. I'd say it's comparable to adding the Beguiler's spellcasting progression to Rogue but none of its other class features, which while not much less than what a gestalt character would get it makes a lower tier class considerably more useful.

I think what he's trying to accomplish is that he no longer wants to see Paladin and Fighter and Ranger being ignored while everyone plays a Crusader or Warblade. It's keeping the feel of the core classes and keeping them competitive by making them just as good as the ToB classes. I wouldn't call Tier 4-5 classes well balanced, if he brings them all up to Tier 3 he can have better party balance without worrying too much about helping the low-optimization players to avoid feeling left behind.

FMArthur
2010-08-29, 08:47 PM
I wasn't calling Fighter, Paladin or Ranger well-balanced there. Warblades' class features are a step short of just being completely ignorable: therefore Warblade is unmistakably buffed by the addition of a whole new class. Crusader's features make a bigger difference, but not nearly a whole class's worth. Why buff ToB at all? I just think it's fine as-is. That's all I was saying.

Boci
2010-08-29, 08:55 PM
I wasn't calling Fighter, Paladin or Ranger well-balanced there. Warblades' class features are a step short of just being completely ignorable: therefore Warblade is unmistakably buffed by the addition of a whole new class. Crusader's features make a bigger difference, but not nearly a whole class's worth. Why buff ToB at all? I just think it's fine as-is. That's all.

Yeah I agree. The OP is saying warblades do not exist, but reallies its fighter's that have ceased to exist.

Acero
2010-08-29, 09:04 PM
Not mune, but if someone fails a hold person, the nearest person, be it friend or foe, has to make the same save -5.

Really hurt the team when the captain of the guard had high Wis and our elf friend didn't.

Oh, and if you dont score high enough on your concentration check, the spell can fire at random.

So Hold Person followed by Frost lance. On my teamate the elf Bard