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View Full Version : [3.5 Gestalt]"Warbard" tweaks



TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 01:09 AM
I may be playing in a gestalt 20th level game some time soon and I decided that I wanted to play a battlefield commander-type character in the same vein as the marshal but with some actual ability to contribute to a fight beyond a mediocre, limited use class ability. Here's what I have so far:

Silverbrow Human Bard 8/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 10//Warblade 20

{TABLE=head]LVL|Class|Feats
1|Bard//Warblade|Dragonfire Inspiration, Lingering Song
2|Bard//Warblade|
3|Bard//Warblade|Song of the White Raven
4|Bard//Warblade|
5|Bard//Warblade|Ironheart Aura
6|Bard//Warblade|Song of the Heart
7|Bard//Warblade|
8|Virtuoso//Warblade|
9|Virtuoso//Warblade|Combat Reflexes, Stormguard Warrior
10|Bard//Warblade|
11|Sublime Chord//Warblade|
12|Sublime Chord//Warblade|Robilar's Gambit
13|Virtuoso//Warblade|Improved Initiative
14|Virtuoso//Warblade|
15|Virtuoso//Warblade|Words of Creation
16|Virtuoso//Warblade|
17|Virtuoso//Warblade|<Warblade Bonus Feat>
18|Virtuoso//Warblade|<Feat>
19|Virtuoso//Warblade|
20|Virtuoso//Warblade|
[/TABLE]

There are three goals that must be met here:
1. The build must be able to take advantage of Stormguard Warrior + Robilar's Gambit + Avalanche of Blades to set up for a spectacular Time Stands Still.


2. The build must maximize the number of Inspire Courage points it channels into Dragonfire Inspiration. As of now, it stands here:

Effective Bard Level: 8 (bard) + 10 (virtuoso) + 20 (warblade via song of the white raven) yields +4 (nonepic bard) +3 (for reaching 26th, 32nd, and 38th level in the epic progression for bards) is a total of +7. Add +1 for Song of the Heart, +1 for (Badge of Valor or whatever it's called), and +1 for inspirational boost. This gets us +10 Inspire Courage, and then for maximum hurt we apply Words of Creation for a total of +20, either channeled into extra damage dice or as a big honkin' bonus to attacks, damage, and saves versus fear (as though we care at 20th). Can anyone help me do better?


3. The build must have at least three tricks it can pull off. Manuevers constitute one, Bardic Music at insane bonuses is two, and 9th level arcane spells are number three. Suggested tricks can be different than the ones I've got, but the main idea is to keep the dragonfire inspiration since the character is a battlefield commander type.

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 01:59 AM
I was doing somthing similar not to long ago, and I'd consider looking at Warchanter(Complete Warrior) for one side of your Gestalt. You can combine songs, Fear people, (at a nice dc), and emulate Shock Trooper on one ally or yourself.

There are 2 downsides, 1, no inspire courage progression, and 2, no boost to your spellcasting, which does kinda hurt the stated goal, but its all I have atm.

Also, check out the feat Warning Shout, you expend 3 uses of Bardic Music as an immediate action to grant one target +5 Morale (I think its morale) bonus to a Reflex Saving throw -AND- Evasion.

Also, what do you think of the Snowflake Wardance feat? (Frostburn)

*Look at a Harmonized Echoing Longsword (Magic Item Compendium) if you havent already, would save you the lingering song feat.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 02:12 AM
The combining songs thing is nice, but it hardly seems worth dropping so many levels of inspire courage and spellcasting. The rest of warchanter is pretty unimpressive, though.

Warning Shout requires me to actually have evasion, which, sadly, I do not have. Otherwise it's respectable.

I like Snowflake Wardance. I'm not totally sure, but it's definitely a candidate. Thanks for the suggestion.

Iferus
2010-08-21, 02:12 AM
Thanks to Song of the White Raven, Warblade levels provide Inspire Courage as well.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 11:14 AM
Well, that IS the idea. I have the Inspire Courage capability of a 38th level bard because my 8 levels of bard, 10 levels of virtuoso, and 20 levels of warblade all stack towards that purpose.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-21, 12:13 PM
Well, that IS the idea. I have the Inspire Courage capability of a 38th level bard because my 8 levels of bard, 10 levels of virtuoso, and 20 levels of warblade all stack towards that purpose.
How would that be different than, say, stacking Rogue//Barbarian levels for the purposes of Uncanny Dodge?
[I probably shouldn't argue with the rules you're using in your game.]

And Snowflake Wardance makes you fight 1-handed. Unless you're spamming Stun effects or something, that's generally a good way to suck, regardless of which stat modifiers you're adding to the attack roll.

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 12:27 PM
More like stacking Rogue/Swashbuckler for Daring Outlaw and Sneak Attack Damage.

As far as Snowflake goes, if he uses something like the Echoing Longsword, its one handed anyways. He'd lose out on 1/2 his str or dex mod, but wouldn't it bring him up again(probaly past that) with adding his charisma to attacks?

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 12:33 PM
How would that be different than, say, stacking Rogue//Barbarian levels for the purposes of Uncanny Dodge?
[I probably shouldn't argue with the rules you're using in your game.]

And Snowflake Wardance makes you fight 1-handed. Unless you're spamming Stun effects or something, that's generally a good way to suck, regardless of which stat modifiers you're adding to the attack roll.

Ah, my goal was to point out to Iferus that I had already counted those warblade levels in my IC bonus.

As for snowflake wardance, I did eventually decide against it after doing a quick analysis of my potential damage dealt. I can also assume that all of my bardic musics are active for these purposes.

Round 1: Run up and hit the guy. On their turns, I should incur (from my experiences playing with this DM) about 3 AoO from Robilar's Gambit that I will forgo for Stormguard Warrior.

Round 2: Avalanche of Blades. I calculated an average starting modifier of +60 to hit (20 BAB, +5 STR, +3 weapon, +20 Inspire Courage, +12 Stormguard Warrior). I should be able to hit somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 touch attacks before the penalty gets to be too much and I have Lightning Recovery to cover a nat 1. Figure 12 touches makes for +60 to damage in the following round.

Round 3: Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still. This is where the previous two rounds really pay off. Raging Mongoose grants me two extra attacks with each weapon wielded, and because of this I decided to go with a heavy mace and a light mace. I can take TWF as the last open feat. Figure I have already cast Greater Mighty Wallop on each of them for base damage of 4d6 and 6d6. Average damage on each one:

Light Mace: 4d6+20 (inspire courage)+20d6 (dragonfire inspiration)+2 (half STR) = average of 106 damage/hit
Heavy Mace: 6d6+20 (inspire courage)+20d6 (dragonfire inspiration)+5 (STR)= average of 116 damage/hit.

My full attacks look like this:

+58/+58/+58/+53/+48/+43 main and +58/+58/+58 off hand.
That's 116*6 + 106*3 = 696 on hand +318 off hand = 1014 damage if all attacks hit, and I can be fairly sure they will. Looking in the monster manual and even the ELH, there aren't THAT many enemies at CR 23 or so that can withstand those to-hit bonuses. Now multiply that full attack damage by 2 since we're making two full attacks for a grand total of 2028 damage. Not bad, considering it will wipe out just about any creature that gets hit by every attack. Can we do better than this?

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot to add in that +60 damage/hit. That makes melee damage look like 176 main and 166 off hand, so it's actually 176*6 + 166*3 = 1056 + 498 = 1554 damage/full attack, for a grand total of 3108 damage over the two full attacks granted by Time Stands Still.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 12:35 PM
More like stacking Rogue/Swashbuckler for Daring Outlaw and Sneak Attack Damage.In gestalt, with the rogue on the other side and swashbuckler on the other, ending up with 20d6 SA, would you allow it?

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 12:37 PM
In my group? No, two players are relatively new to the game and are stubborn when it comes to help.

In a group with more seasoned players? Maybe.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 12:40 PM
In my group? No, two players are relatively new to the game and are stubborn when it comes to help.

In a group with more seasoned players? Maybe.

Yeah, this is meant to be a high power game if that helps any. One of the other characters is a Fighter/Cleric//Wizard/Master Transmuter/Mystic Theurge/Incantatrix if that gives you an idea of his silliness. Shapechange + Maw of Chaos all day long and a bunch of other dumb spellcasting tricks.

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 12:44 PM
Just curious, doesnt Dragonfire Inspiration replace the morale bonus to hit and to damage?

*edit* Well, Inspire courage one turn, then Dragonfire the next works I think. ><

Greenish
2010-08-21, 12:46 PM
Just curious, doesnt Dragonfire Inspiration replace the morale bonus to hit and to damage?You get to select which one to use when you start it (and the effect of both lingers for 5 rounds after you stop singing, 10 rounds with Lingering Song).

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 12:47 PM
Just curious, doesnt Dragonfire Inspiration replace the morale bonus to hit and to damage?

Yes it does, but who says I can't then inspire courage normally? As far as I know, they will stack because they do not provide the same kind of bonus to the same things.

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 12:48 PM
I was under the impression that Dragonfire actually was a complete replacement, instead of an at will one. My mistake.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 12:51 PM
I was under the impression that Dragonfire actually was a complete replacement, instead of an at will one. My mistake.

Yeah, 20+20d6 isn't the be-all-end-all of 20th level damage buffs, but I hardly think it's something to sneeze at either. My main question still stands, though. Can we improve the melee damage here?

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 12:54 PM
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows.

Adds +2 Str, and gives Cha mod as fire damage.

From Dragon Magazine, 314. Only other thing that occurs to me.


+120 Damage, + 120d6 a round per person affected by it seems pretty sick to me. What beats that for damage?

Greenish
2010-08-21, 12:54 PM
Yeah, 20+20d6 isn't the be-all-end-all of 20th level damage buffs, but I hardly think it's something to sneeze at either. My main question still stands, though. Can we improve the melee damage here?Power Attack + Leap Attack + Valorous weapon + Pouncing Charge (or get pounce from somewhere else).

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 12:56 PM
Power Attack + Leap Attack + Valorous weapon + Pouncing Charge (or get pounce from somewhere else).

All good thoughts. The question is, where do I fit those feats in?

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 01:02 PM
Fighter/Pyschic Warrior could cover some of those.

Well... power attack anyways, 1 Fighter/1 Barbarian (Lion Totem) gives you Pounce and Power Attack.

Vest of Legends (DMG 2) would cover your losses for Inspire Courage.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 01:07 PM
All good thoughts. The question is, where do I fit those feats in?Frog-god's Fane + dark chaos shuffle? Well, PA is strong even without Leap Attack.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 01:12 PM
Now that I think of it, Power Attack is significantly less worth it when I'm doing TWF, isn't it? A 2-for-1 return on a two handed weapon is fine, but I don't want to sacrifice too much accuracy for a small return on damage compared to the total. As it is I roll 18 attacks when I get Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose off.

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 01:15 PM
Shock Trooper.

Improved Bull Rush is a fighter bonus feat, so 2 levels in Fighter, Shock Trooper is a fighter bonus feat, so Warblade can get it, otherwise, 1 Level dip in Psychic Warrior

Thats a drop of 4 in inspire courage, Vest of Legends counts you as 4 levels higher for Inspire Courage.

Only problem is Rolibars Gambit.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 01:26 PM
Now that I think of it, Power Attack is significantly less worth it when I'm doing TWF, isn't it? A 2-for-1 return on a two handed weapon is fine, but I don't want to sacrifice too much accuracy for a small return on damage compared to the total. As it is I roll 18 attacks when I get Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose off.If you, say, dip some fighter for more feats, you can TWF a two-hander and unarmed strike.

That said, Leap Attack gives even one-handers 2-for-1 returns.

gomipile
2010-08-21, 01:32 PM
You could get a metamagic feat like Fell Drain and apply it to Sound Burst or other AoEs.


OT: How does one make and insert those stylish character build tables like in your original post?

Awnetu
2010-08-21, 01:33 PM
You could get a metamagic feat like Fell Drain and apply it to Sound Burst or other AoEs.


OT: How does one make and insert those stylish character build tables like in your original post?

Table tags, you seperate each section with a | (the button above the enter key)

dspeyer
2010-08-21, 05:13 PM
Might I recommend War Weaver? Expand your buff spells to the whole party. Make sure to take the first level before you sublime chord to avoid giving up casting. Take Obtain Familiar and Draconic Familiar to deliver touch spells.

You might consider crusader instead of warblade. It gets devoted spirit and cha synergy. PrC or Martial Study for Time Stands Still.

Iferus
2010-08-21, 06:29 PM
Ah, my goal was to point out to Iferus that I had already counted those warblade levels in my IC bonus.

I'm sorry, but I cannot guess the level of leniency in your reading of Gestalt rules. In most games, my comment would have been helpful. (.. Always there to help, eh.)

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 06:38 PM
I'm sorry, but I cannot guess the level of leniency in your reading of Gestalt rules. In most games, my comment would have been helpful. (.. Always there to help, eh.)

Yeah, some of them are kind of fuzzy, but it seemed plain (at least to me) that, since the character has levels in the Bard class, Virtuoso class and Warblade class, they all count towards the total Inspire Courage level. Was your interpretation that levels composed of Bard//Warblade or Virtuoso//Warblade do not double count? If so, can you show me where, if anywhere, the gestalt rules discuss this sort of thing?

EDIT: Also, I played with the idea of war weaver for a while but it just seemed like the extra feat and lost levels of inspire courage are kind of problematic.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-21, 06:52 PM
Get some slippers of battledancing from DMG-II.

tonberrian
2010-08-21, 07:34 PM
Get some slippers of battledancing from DMG-II.

I think, but I may well be wrong, that slippers of battledancing are very strict in their activation - you must move using a move action, so no full attacks without an additional move action. The list of abilities that give you extra move actions are exceedingly slim (hustle, Atavist, and Swiftblade are the only ones I can think of).

Of course, I stress that I'm away from books at the moment, so this might be totally wrong.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 07:46 PM
I think, but I may well be wrong, that slippers of battledancing are very strict in their activation - you must move using a move action, so no full attacks without an additional move action. The list of abilities that give you extra move actions are exceedingly slim (hustle, Atavist, and Swiftblade are the only ones I can think of).

Of course, I stress that I'm away from books at the moment, so this might be totally wrong.

Well, there's always marshals :smallbiggrin:.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-21, 08:02 PM
I think, but I may well be wrong, that slippers of battledancing are very strict in their activation - you must move using a move action, so no full attacks without an additional move action.

Who cares? You're a warblade. Most of your strikes are standard actions.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 08:05 PM
Who cares? You're a warblade. Most of your strikes are standard actions.

This is true, but in one of my earlier posts I strung out a 2-3 round sequence that generates an expected value for damage of about 3100 across 18 attacks, gained from TWF, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still after using Stormguard Warrior with Avalanche of Blades hitting about 12 times to accrue ~+60 damage per hit in the next round. Damage potential like that is pretty spectacular IMHO for a non-damage based caster.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-21, 08:27 PM
This is true, but in one of my earlier posts I strung out a 2-3 round sequence that generates an expected value for damage of about 3100 across 18 attacks, gained from TWF, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still after using Stormguard Warrior with Avalanche of Blades hitting about 12 times to accrue ~+60 damage per hit in the next round. Damage potential like that is pretty spectacular IMHO for a non-damage based caster.

True, but you're not going to be doing that every turn.

Or if you are, I pity your DM.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 08:32 PM
True, but you're not going to be doing that every turn.

Or if you are, I pity your DM.

Yeah, every turn would be rough. He knows I'm an optimizer, but he and I also have an understanding that those ridiculous options exist only as OSH*T buttons than should be pressed when nothing else will do. I won't nuke the world unless the only way to survive or otherwise achieve a goal is, in fact, to nuke the crap out of said world.

That said, I suppose there's no reason not to have the slippers when they still provide a substantial benefit, especially when setting up for all of this nonsense should I need to.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 12:17 AM
If your willing to use a fuzzy interpretation of the 5 foot step rule, you can do a full attack while still using the Slippers.

While the PHB does not call a 5 foot step a move action, you do trade one to make it.

If you treat it as a move action, then using the tumbling table found on pg 58 of the Oriental Adventures, you can make a dc 40 Tumble check to take a 10 foot step.

The requirement on the boots is moving 10 feet as part of a move action.

Really kinda twisting it I know, but just a thought.


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I don't understand that mentality, if you are telling your DM, Ill never use this trick, unless I absolutely have to, that comes off to me as you telling the DM, I'm only being sane because I'm nice, at any time I could blow this entire fight all away.

I do lean more towards having my fights tax my adventurers, so maybe its just my view, but if I was told that, I'd force you to use it every time and tell you that if you wanna go there, so can I. :smallfrown:

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 12:20 AM
If your willing to use a fuzzy interpretation of the 5 foot step rule, you can do a full attack while still using the Slippers.

While the PHB does not call a 5 foot step a move action, you do trade one to make it.

If you treat it as a move action, then using the tumbling table found on pg 58 of the Oriental Adventures, you can make a dc 40 Tumble check to take a 10 foot step.

The requirement on the boots is moving 10 feet as part of a move action.

Really kinda twisting it I know, but just a thought.


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I don't understand that mentality, if you are telling your DM, Ill never use this trick, unless I absolutely have to, that comes off to me as you telling the DM, I'm only being sane because I'm nice, at any time I could blow this entire fight all away.

I do lean more towards having my fights tax my adventurers, so maybe its just my view, but if I was told that, I'd force you to use it every time and tell you that if you wanna go there, so can I. :smallfrown:

Hah! Genius idea to use the OA table. I'll see what he says about that. Should be pretty easy to do at level 20.

As for the restraint thing, I usually justify it in roleplaying terms. A character with that much raw power must learn to moderate his use of it or let it consume him, a la the Dark Side of the Force. Only in times of dire need is a dire solution appropriate.

Awnetu
2010-08-27, 03:56 PM
Also, on Snowflake Wardance, another trick you can do is use an Aptitude weapon, from the Tome of Battle page 148, which might allow you to use your Maces for Snowflake Wardance.