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SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 02:31 AM
My point is in the title.

In the campaign I'm currently DMing, next up we'll be playing a dungeon infested with traps. As I rarely put up traps, they are supposed to be kind of surprising. However, the paranoid party rogue checks every single nook and cranny for traps. This alone wouldn't be that annoying.

But he keeps taking 20 on his Search checks.
Because of this, the Search DC for the traps is practically worthless (as long as it is reachable with a 20) and the element of surprise is ruined.
If you take 20 while searching for traps, do you think it would be plausible to houserule that the multiple failures assumed when taking 20 would spring the trap? Or is it an actual rule? Also, should I roll the checks in secret so that they wouldn't know what the roll was? As if they roll a 5, they are sure to try again and again until they get a better number.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 02:35 AM
Well, you can't take 20 when rushed or threatened, right? I'd say a hidden trap that careless stompin' around might spring counts as pretty threatening. If a player insists on systematically searching every nook and cranny, some of those nooks might be pressure plates and some of those crannies could hide poison needles of their own. Taking 20 implies that you are being Thorough with a capital T, so your meticulous work could in fact cause you to step somewhere dangerous.

Alternatively, the noise from such a thorough search could attract whatever is hiding in the darkness...

SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 02:37 AM
Actually, all the traps in the dungeon are triggered by location/proximity/touch. So yeah, I'll take it that you need to step next to the trap to find it (when taking 20), thus triggering it in the process.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 02:39 AM
Well, it might not be reasonable to rule that harshly. After all, how does one pull off a normal search check? He somehow locates it with a method only usable by being somewhat more hasty, including not being next to the trap?

Another option is to lay down a blanket condition on the party that says "The traps in here create a threatening environment that does not allow you to take 20 as per the description of the action."

Ozreth
2010-08-21, 02:42 AM
Sounds like you need some sort of threat, a time constraint perhaps?

And dont forget that taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a normal check.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 02:46 AM
Actually, all the traps in the dungeon are triggered by location/proximity/touch. So yeah, I'll take it that you need to step next to the trap to find it (when taking 20), thus triggering it in the process.
Check: You generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. The default distance limit is already pretty restrictive, and taking 20 full-round actions (2 minutes) for each 5' square is really slow. I don't think you need to be harsher than that.

SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 02:49 AM
Well, in most parts of the dungeon, the traps are in otherwise empty and silent places, like "it's quiet, too quiet". I could probably say that there's something suspicious and pressuring in the atmosphere.

Also, what about the thing of me making the rolls? Either they shouldn't know the result of the check, it should be no-retry OR a bad fail would result in springing the trap.

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 02:50 AM
The default distance limit is already pretty restrictive, and taking 20 full-round actions (2 minutes) for each 5' square is really slow. I don't think you need to be harsher than that.

Wow, it could take WEEKS for a very large room. Starvation is a CLOCK!

Ranos
2010-08-21, 02:50 AM
Traps are usually not that interesting by themselves anyway. They're binary. Either you find that trap and we move on, or you don't, take some damage, and we move on.

You need something else to make traps interesting. For example, fighting in a heavily trapped room, with each side trying to push the others into traps, could make for a memorable encounter. Or you could make the trap itself the monster (For example, not merely a pit trap, but the ground actively trying to swallow you).

I think they explained pretty well how to make traps interesting in Dungeonscape.

Cespenar
2010-08-21, 02:55 AM
I think one shouldn't be able to take 20 with Search takes, because it involves poking, feeling, standing and looking from different directions - in short, actions that might just trigger a trap.

I would rule that it works like Disable Device: no take 20, fail by 5 and more and you trigger the trap (if there's any). If that's too harsh, make it "by 10 and more".

SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 02:57 AM
We'll, the traps aren't actually that numerous. It's just a koboldy sub-race of orcs, and the whole dungeon is just dastardly overall. The actual traps are in a single hallway, and their primary meaning is giving the rogue something to actually do with his Disable Device ranks. He's been complaining about that for a while.

Of course, there's a chance that he has dropped the habit of continuous trap-checking and will step right into the traps, which might create a humorous moment. Also, many of the traps use sleep poison (similar to Drow poison with a little higher DC), which might create an interesting scenario if some of the party is rendered unconscious and captured.

Maybe I should add an orc or two in the end of the hallway so that it wouldn't look so suspicious? The orc just might laugh it's big gray (underground sub-race) ass off.

EDIT: I might use the fail-trigger at a fail of 10 or more.

icefractal
2010-08-21, 02:58 AM
Actually, taking 10 is the one you can't do under pressure. Taking 20 has no restrictions, except taking 20 times as long - which makes sense, because it's purpose is just so that people don't have to roll the dice 20-30 times.

And when you're not rushed, why wouldn't you take a bit of extra time? Maybe not a whole 20x the time, but why not give it at least half a minute (which would be five rolls)? I mean, if I saw a bomb-squad guy give a quick six-second glance at a possibly-explosive door and say "Nah, it's probably fine", then I'd probably wonder WTH they didn't take a longer look.


My advice would actually be not to have traps that are isolated by themselves. They encourage tediously paranoid play, are usually either auto-found or impossible (depending on conditions), and if they go off - so what? The party uses a healing potion, maybe has to retreat and rest a bit if it was bad enough, and still nothing of note really happened.

But that doesn't mean traps are all bad. They just have to be in a bit more dynamic situation. For instance:
* The PCs are chasing/being chased by a monster, and have to try to spot and avoid traps along the way.
* A group of crafty foes like kobolds is fighting from a chokepoint, and using levers to trigger traps on the PCs side.
* Something is obviously trapped, but there's no way to avoid it - the only passage to the vault, or maybe the treasure itself. Try to figure out exactly how it's trapped and how to avoid those traps.
* A big set piece trap where multiple parts have to be disabled, and the hazards have to be avoided/blocked in the meantime.

SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 03:25 AM
So, this is what I have gathered so far:

A failure of 10 or more on the Search check triggers the trap
The Search skill has a maximum "range" of 10 feet, so the character might trigger a location or proximity trap when getting within this range
In some cases, taking 10 is impossible purely due to the atmosphere

Seffbasilisk
2010-08-21, 03:29 AM
Additionally, taking a 20 implies you have the time to do it twenty times in a row, and no negative consequences/resources expensive enough lost on failure.

So, if you take a 20, you start with getting a 1, then a 2, so on and so forth. And I think failing the DC by FIVE triggers the trap IIRC.

Saph
2010-08-21, 03:35 AM
I'd recommend allowing the rogue to take 20 normally. The whole point of taking 20 on a Search check is that you're spending extra time to get the best result possible. If your rogue is being careful and making good use of his skills, don't punish him for it!

By RAW, failing a Search check does not trigger a trap, no matter how badly you roll. Failing a Disable Device check by 5 or more is what triggers a trap. I suspect your Rogue player may get quite annoyed if you change the skill rules purely to make life harder for him.

Remember that traps, on their own, are not supposed to be a serious challenge to a competent party. They're only a threat to parties who get careless or who for some reason have no way at all of dealing with them. When traps become really dangerous is when they're combined with living enemies - e.g. the snipers shoot at you whenever you try to disable the minefield.

SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 03:50 AM
Yeah, I guess Saph is right. There are still the Disable Device checks, after all, and careless players to add to the risk. Also, the 10-feet limit is still existant.

But still, the point in the title is at least semi-true. Many DCs have to either be impossible even on a 20 OR you have to make up some reasons to hurry.

Saph
2010-08-21, 03:56 AM
If it bothers you, just give a high DC to the Disable Device checks. The PCs still have to deal with the trap after it's found, and the Disable Device check is the one that risks blowing up in your face.

But I usually see simple traps as not much more than local colour. The normal effects are:

a) Rogue disables trap with a dice roll, party carries on
b) Trap goes off, some of the party take a bunch of HP damage, party heals up, party carries on

The only difference between a) and b) is that in b) the party has to expend a few charges from their healing wands, which are a near-unlimited resource anyway.

Peregrine
2010-08-21, 04:00 AM
I think that taking 20 on Search works this way by design. I don't agree with making Search checks more hazardous, by banning taking 20 or by having a chance of setting the trap off. After all, the whole point of the rogue's trapfinding is that a rogue can find traps without setting them off that should otherwise be impossible -- like a symbol triggered by looking at it.

There are still plenty of interesting ways you can screw with your rogue's player keep traps from being yawnworthy. :smallsmile:

Consider the time carefully. It takes two minutes to search every 5 ft. by 5 ft. square. That adds up fast.
If that isn't enough motivation to hurry up, have a time limit. People in peril, room is flooding, bad guys getting away...
Or consider that, while rogues are able to find and disarm difficult traps that they should logically set off in doing so, nobody else is. So the rest of the party, standing around for ages, might set off the trap before it's found. (Say, have the entire 20 ft. by 20 ft. room be a trigger for a trap that quite loudly armed when the party entered. The Search check is to find the mechanism in order to disable it. Everybody but the rogue needs to stand perfectly still while the rogue searches... for over an hour, if he insists on taking 20.)
Or have some "too quiet" areas be completely devoid of traps. The party stands around for 30 minutes for no good reason; to them, the rogue looks dangerously paranoid after a little while.
And that's just the Search checks. Even if he reliably finds the traps, so what? He can't take 20 on Disable Device.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-21, 04:12 AM
You can only take 20 in certain situations and it takes a LONG time. Of course, in a campaign where everything moves at the speed of plot, where the heroes open the door to the villains room JUST in time, yeah, I can see how it would be a bit of an issue. Just remind the players of some of their goals and priorities and just how long taking 20 will take. And in cases where they DO have the time, but absolutely need to pass the DC, let them. Over and over rolling is boring, to be honest.

QuantumSteve
2010-08-21, 04:16 AM
Most Dungeons Crawls have a time limit of the 10 min/Lv buffs several characters have going. They only have an hour or so, 2 if it's extended, to clear this dungeon. There's just no time to spend 30 min in every room.

Abies
2010-08-21, 04:38 AM
Its been said, but simply have there be a time element to the plot. Make this clear. Then if the party still insists on taking 20 on every search or other check, just flow with it.

When the party arrives three hours too late to save the princess, have them defeat the big evil boss however they want. When they look at you with that wil look in thier eyes, pencils in hand waiting for that fat xp reward, just remind them the point was to save the princess. They failed, no xp.

Not only do they get nothing, but now there is also a king out there who wants answers as to why the party he sent to save his daughter failed. You can be sure they will hurry the process up after that.

Note: this may not work well on evil parties. In the case of evil parties, just have the monsters and treasure have moved on before the party gets there. Apparently all thier poking around for hours on end was noticed, and the bad guys decided discresion was the better part of valor. Hence, the party gets thier slow dungeon crawl looking for things that may or may not be there, but in doing so tips off the real threats (ie things that give xp and gp) to leave.

Either way make it clear the party's choices in regard to time will have a clear impact on the rewards given/not given.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-21, 04:46 AM
Most Dungeons Crawls have a time limit of the 10 min/Lv buffs several characters have going. They only have an hour or so, 2 if it's extended, to clear this dungeon. There's just no time to spend 30 min in every room.
Just what games have this limit? Even at Cons the limit is real world hours, not in-game time. What you describe sounds like a world where Dungeon Crawls are organized like Hunting Season, where there is only a 3 Orc bag limit or something like that.

Balain
2010-08-21, 04:55 AM
Hmm I don't see what all the issues are with the take 10 and take 20. First of all when you take 10 or take 20 there is no roll made.


Page 65 players handbook "... you may chose to take 10 instead of rolling..." and "instead of rolling a 1d20 you just calculate your skill as if you had rolled a 20..."

You also can only use take 10 when searching for traps and not take 20.


Players handbook page 65 "When you have plenty of time (...generally 2 minutes...), you are faced with no threats or distractions, AND THE SKILL BEING ATTEMPTED CARRIES NO PENALTIES FOR FAILURE....."

If you would fail searching for a trap you set off the trap and take damage or die. That is a penalty for failure so take 20 is impossible.


Players handbook page 65 "When your character is not threatened or distracted you may take 10...take 10 is purely a safety measure. YOU know(or expect) that an average roll will succeed but a poor roll might fail..."

So a rouge can take 10 to try and find a trap not take 20 no need to roll just add 10 to his/her skill. Only rogues can search for traps who's DC is 20 or higher or it is a magical trap. If anything comes along and attacks or the npc keeps trying to talk to him or pieces of stone keep falling from the roof hitting him on the head doing no damage but annoying is a threat or distraction and he can't take 10 and needs to roll.

Searching for traps takes time time. You need to take one minute to search a 5'X5' square as said somewhere under search. So say a magical trap that goes off by being near a 10' nook the rogue would need to take say 2 minutes searching moving slowly up to that spot. Let's assume the spell was 4th level the Characters are level one. The DC for the trap is 29. The rogue takes 10, so 10 +4 (max skill points at level 1 if I remember right) is 14 no where near 29 still needs another +15 from somewhere, pretty darn tough for level 1. If some wandering monster shows up in those 2 minutes he can't continue his search.

By taking 10 (or taking 20 or having him/her roll) Doesn't matter what the total is or if they made the DC or not your response is "you don't think there is a trap there" or "As far as you can tell it looks all clear" or "you think there might be a trap" never say "Nope no trap" or "yup there is a trap there"

Peregrine
2010-08-21, 05:30 AM
What you describe sounds like a world where Dungeon Crawls are organized like Hunting Season, where there is only a 3 Orc bag limit or something like that.

I'm pretty sure QuantumSteve was talking about dungeons where the characters want to get through before their 10 min./level buffs wear off (perhaps assuming that the hardest challenge is at the end... as usual). Which suggests they can't (a) rest in the dungeon or (b) leave and come back later. Not the usual assumption, to be sure, but an easy one for which to come up with sensible scenarios. :smallsmile:


You also can only use take 10 when searching for traps and not take 20.

If you would fail searching for a trap you set off the trap and take damage or die. That is a penalty for failure so take 20 is impossible.

That's not normally the case; failing to find a trap on a Search check does not directly set the trap off. (Though that may be the case for a symbol trap or something.) Sure, if you don't find it, you'll probably set it off soon, but that's quite different to an actual consequence of failing the check.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-21, 05:35 AM
I'm pretty sure QuantumSteve was talking about dungeons where the characters want to get through before their 10 min./level buffs wear off (perhaps assuming that the hardest challenge is at the end... as usual). Which suggests they can't (a) rest in the dungeon or (b) leave and come back later. Not the usual assumption, to be sure, but an easy one for which to come up with sensible scenarios. :smallsmile:
LOL, I see now. Thanks, bit of a brain fart on my part. That's what I get for staying up late and imbibing caffeine at ungodly hours.:smalltongue:

stenver
2010-08-21, 05:48 AM
ALWAYS give a time constrait. It makes it funner, makes them move forward and the less time there is, the faster they gotta move.

Really, make it so the dungeon is collapsing, quite fast, like, after midnight its done

Have the players know massive reinforcements are coming for the enemy.

Change the dungeon layout in every 1 hour or so.

Have the dungeon self repair itself. So if players waste too much time, they need to work, simply to get out.

Have the dungeon "asseble" for the threat. For example, the longer they are there, the more dangerous it becomes.

And really, world around them is always moving, if they spend too much time inside somewhere, somethings gonna happen on the outside.

Taking 20 on every square.. the players in game would really get bored, 2 minutes on every square.. and on top of that, they are threatened sometimes, so really noway to take 20

You dont need to punish or make it harder. Just give a time constrait. Make the world around them alive and then they wont spend 3 months to go through a dungeon the size of an apartment building.

As for triggering, thats stupid. Searching 5 foot by 5 foot area for 2 minutes means you simply watch every square inch very carefully. Not poking around like an idiot. If you got 2 minutes to investigate an area, you will see whats there for sure. Just try it in your home!

Kurald Galain
2010-08-21, 05:53 AM
My point is in the title.
Yes.

Consider how they got there. Several RPGs have a rule that if you fail a check, you're unable to do that and you must think of something else. D&D takes the opposite approach, that many checks can be repeated the next round, until you get them right.

This means that if you keep e.g. picking a lock, you will eventually roll a 20 on your check; and to speed things up, WOTC decided that instead of rolling a couple dozen rounds, you can just assert a 20 and take a set number of rounds. This rule only exists to speed up gameplay; if it didn't exist, people could simply roll over and over again.

And yes, this makes skill DCs meaningless assuming the characters have enough time for them. But this kludge is caused by the rule that most things can be repeated as often as you please. The best fix, then, strikes me to disallow retries.

Bharg
2010-08-21, 05:55 AM
As long as there is a chance of failing you can't take 20.

Boci
2010-08-21, 05:57 AM
As long as there is a chance of failing you can't take 20.

Then there would be no point in having such a mechanics. If there is an immediate negative consequence for failure you cannot take a 20, like when climbing. Search is fair game.

Bharg
2010-08-21, 06:01 AM
Yeah, that's what I meant... ^^
Won't work when you are searching a mine field.

derfenrirwolv
2010-08-21, 06:13 AM
Put the party on a timer. the water is rising, there's another party headed for the artifact, or a giant monster is comming down the hallway soon. Taking 20 takes a LONG time if you're searching every square foot of floor walls and ceiling.

WinWin
2010-08-21, 06:18 AM
Time is an issue. 2 minutes to search every 5' area will add up quickly. One way around this is the search teamwork ability in Complete Scoundel. That allows a greater area to be covered quickly.

In order to make things more difficult, consider using wandering monsters. Remote triggered traps, Rube Goldberg Machines or trap rooms might be situationally harder. eg. A room that floods full of water or sand. The trigger might be in the centre of the room, searching the area reveals the doors are rigged to close and lock. It may also reveal the holes that release sand or water. The actual trigger mechanism is inside the trap itself.

Poison gases and the like might be colourless and/or odorless.

A dungeon overgrown with roots/cobwebs/dust may make some traps more difficult to detect (a circumstance penalty). To make things fair, I would say that aged traps may not function at full strength.

Hope this gives you a few ideas. If all else fails, talk with your player about your frustrations. Come up with a solution to their playstyle at the table.

Boci
2010-08-21, 06:19 AM
Yeah, that's what I meant... ^^
Won't work when you are searching a mine field.

Even then there's no immediate negative consequences for failure, because you can just search again. And as someone else pointed out, you can take a 20 even when threataned.

Bharg
2010-08-21, 06:29 AM
Negative consequences like triggering a mine?

ThunderCat
2010-08-21, 06:52 AM
A trap wont trigger just because you fail a search check. A trap triggers if you fail a search check and therefore doesn't notice the trap until you step into range of it. That wont happen if you take 20. But 2 minutes per 5 ft square is a long time. It means the party will proceed forward at a pace 20 times slower than normal.

If your party was sent to retrieve an object, their employer might very well send another group to do the same job, after the party doesn't return from the 1 week long dungeon crawl within 3 months. If the party was sent to rescue someone, they could already be dead, escaped, sold, or moved to another location by the time the party arrives. If the party is chasing someone, they're bound to get away. If the party needs a magical artifact in time to save the world, the world is probably already destroyed by the time they find it.

In fact, I have a hard time imagining any mission that wouldn't be compromised by spending that amount of time, except for the party simply searching various dungeons for loot to make themselves rich, and in that case, they'd still have to rely on magic to get the necessary food. So the answer might be something as simple as a time limit – the trolls are going to eventually eat the prisoners they took from a nearby village, the kidnapped prince/princess will be forcefully married off to a rival nation if they aren't rescued in time, the sacred ritual of an evil cult will take place by the next full moon, the clue to a murderer's identity needs to be found as soon as possible to stop them committing more murders, etc.

I'm not talking about always rushing the party, but honestly, spending half a year inside a dungeon that was supposed to take little over a week to complete is ridiculous overkill. On the other hand, the party might feel that they don't have a decent chance of finding the traps, and the traps are too nasty, in which case, you might want to think about compromising and making it a little easier.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 07:26 AM
I think one shouldn't be able to take 20 with Search takes, because it involves poking, feeling, standing and looking from different directions - in short, actions that might just trigger a trap.
Not by the D&D rules, it doesn't. You can do all your Search checks from 10' away, without moving around, or closer to, the square you're checking.

Gnaeus
2010-08-21, 07:37 AM
Remember this.

Every time you weaken the Rogue's abilities, you make it more attractive to replace them. In this case, the party can replace the rogue's trapfinding with a 750 gp item, a wand of summon monster I, used 25 feet away. Monster runs up and opens door. If it explodes, the door was trapped. (alternately, they can skip the wand, and just advance more slowly with memorized summon spells, or get a reserve feat.)

If you think that that is more fun, don't let the rogue take 20s on search checks. If you think (as I do) that that is less fun, or that the rogue should be allowed to do his job and not have it taken away by tier 1s who can do it better, let the rogue succeed.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-21, 07:39 AM
taking 20 on a search check means you spend 2 minutes per 5' square doing your search. go ahead, put a wandering monster in there.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-21, 07:51 AM
Negative consequences like triggering a mine?

No. Search has no failure penalties. You can just keep searching that square until you hit "20" on the dice. What triggers said landmine would be a failed Disable Device or walking on it.

lesser_minion
2010-08-21, 08:24 AM
I may be a little out of date, but my understanding was that the specific rules that apply to traps are that you only get to roll when you do something that would trigger it.

As a result, there's no taking 20 because a failed check causes you to trip the trap.


In this case, the party can replace the rogue's trapfinding with a 750 gp item, a wand of summon monster I, used 25 feet away.

If the best your DM can come up with is an exploding door for 5d6 damage, why are you worried about traps?

It's quite easy to make a trap that cannot be rendered meaningless by a first level spell. A silent alarm, maybe?

If there's nothing in the trapped area you want to protect, maybe you could just pump the entire thing with acetylene gas and then blast that. Even if your players survive the 20d6 fire damage, they might not be able to escape the locked down area without suffocating.

Even if it's just a direct attack, why not build a delay into it and set it off inside the room?

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 09:39 AM
I may be a little out of date, but my understanding was that the specific rules that apply to traps are that you only get to roll when you do something that would trigger it.
That's incorrect. The Search skill may be used whenever you want, for any purpose including trying to detect traps. See the skill description here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm).

lesser_minion
2010-08-21, 09:43 AM
That's incorrect. The Search skill may be used whenever you want, for any purpose including trying to detect traps. See the skill description here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm).

Specific trumps general. That's the general set of rules for search.

Every single reference to search checks in the actual rules for traps is followed directly by "... before it goes off".

Or, in other words, the DC for any case but "last chance to avoid" is unspecified and left to the DM.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 09:46 AM
Specific trumps general. That's the general set of rules for search, not the specific set of rules for traps.
There are no specific rules for traps which preclude using Search as specified.

lesser_minion
2010-08-21, 09:51 AM
There are no specific rules for traps which preclude using Search as specified.

No DC is provided for any case other than "before it goes off". Ergo, use of the skill under any other circumstance is entirely up to the DM, and may have a different DC or simply not be permitted.

snoopy13a
2010-08-21, 09:52 AM
It takes forever to take 20 to search a room. One 5' by 5' square takes two minutes. Thus, a 10' by 10' small room takes eight minutes to search.

If the players continue to do this you can have a scout discover the party and can do one of two options:

1) The bad guys have time to flee the dungeon and take their treasure along with them
2) The bad guys have time to spring an ambush

Or you can just chalk it up to the rogue just being a rogue (that's essentially the whole point of having a rogue) and leave it at that.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-21, 09:53 AM
Specific trumps general. That's the general set of rules for search.

Every single reference to search checks in the actual rules for traps is followed directly by "... before it goes off".

Or, in other words, the DC for any case but "last chance to avoid" is unspecified and left to the DM.

Explain like why failing to find something causes it to go off. Don't adlib (saying you'll walk into it).
Explain why the searching causes it to go off.

You can't because it is the disabling that causes failure not the searching.

DanReiv
2010-08-21, 09:54 AM
We didn't liked it either, stupidly binary as you said.

Here's our houserule : taking 20 means making 1 too, which will trigger a trap if there's one with a search check (instead of disable device check).

The idea is to differenciate search (you pokes at stuff) from spot.

So now our trapfinders are way more cautious, they never take 20 when they suspect a trap.

We've become better with them too, fancy mechanism, double/triple layers traps (disable the 1st triggers the other) that kind of stuff.

And as stated above, without any need for houserules, they can't take 20 in fight, and traps + fight is very fun :smallwink: Probably the best way to use them.

I had this necromancer BBEG of the moment completly surrounded by flooded pit traps. Can't believe how effective they were, between the initial (failed) frontal assault and the missed jump/swim/clim check that followed :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2010-08-21, 09:56 AM
Explain like why failing to find something causes it to go off. Don't adlib (saying you'll walk into it).

Why do I need to do any such thing?

By RAW, you get a check when you're about to trigger a trap (to avoid doing so). That's what the Search DC for a trap is -- the DC to spot it before it triggers.

If your DM grants you an additional check, then while there would be no reason to disallow taking 20, the entire thing would be at his discretion, because it's actually outside the scope of the rules the game provides.

In short, the rules provide no way to search for a trap without running the risk of triggering it.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-21, 09:59 AM
We didn't liked it either, stupidly binary as you said.

Here's our houserule : taking 20 means making 1 too, which will trigger a trap if there's one with a search check (instead of disable device check).

The idea is to differenciate search (you pokes at stuff) from spot.

So now our trapfinders are way more cautious, they never take 20 when the suspect a trap.

We've become better with them too, fancy mechanism, double/triple layers traps (disable the 1st triggers the other) that kind of stuff.

Whoa, explain how search causes a trap to trigger? Even a 1 on search can't notmally cause a trap to trigger.
Here is Search:
Notice no failure entry:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm

Here is Disable Device:
If the check succeeds, you disable the device. If it fails by 4 or less, you have failed but can try again. If you fail by 5 or more, something goes wrong. If the device is a trap, you spring it. If you’re attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally.

Notice there is a failure entry- D&D doesn't agree with your idea that search has one.

DanReiv
2010-08-21, 10:02 AM
Allo ? It's stated it's a houserule ?

Because raw is so dumb ?

Gnaeus
2010-08-21, 10:10 AM
Allo ? It's stated it's a houserule ?

Because raw is so dumb ?

Personally, I think that it is much dumber to have your professional trapsmith set off one trap in 20 by just looking at it. In mid levels, when the casters are effortlessly rewriting reality with no chance of failure, the rogue is blowing himself up every couple of dungeons, even if he NEVER attempts a disarm. Do you think that the rogue class is so overpowered that it needs that kind of nerf?

Greenish
2010-08-21, 10:14 AM
Why do I need to do any such thing?Because it's confusing when you keep spouting your houserules like they're RAW.
By RAW, you get a check when you're about to trigger a trap (to avoid doing so).Or you can use the skill normally. Where does it even say that you get a free search check to avoid walking into a trap?
That's what the Search DC for a trap is -- the DC to spot it before it triggers.Cite why you would think that traps can't be found by searching for them.
In short, the rules provide no way to search for a trap without running the risk of triggering it.Except, you know, searching for it?

Emmerask
2010-08-21, 10:24 AM
And dont forget that taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a normal check.

This!

-narrate it properly:
Rogue: I take 20
DM: Okay, this takes some time. You other guys want to do anything in the 2 minutes?
--- maybe stuff happens---

---5 feet later---
Rogue: I take 20
DM: Okay this takes some time you guys want to do anything in the 2 minutes?
:smalltongue:

Or if the rogue moves forward alone let the party have an encounter in the meantime :smalltongue:

Yeah I know both these things are quite mean

Créate some time pressure:
You hear an evil chant far away from your location it might be some kind of ritual. Or it may simply be the nature of the quest that demands them to do it swift and not with a 2 day stay inside a dungeon.

Or if it really annoys you rule zero search to have a failure chance if the rogue protests you use traps only in time pressure circumstances where he can´t take 20

Peregrine
2010-08-21, 10:27 AM
By RAW, you get a check when you're about to trigger a trap (to avoid doing so). That's what the Search DC for a trap is -- the DC to spot it before it triggers.

Not true. The rules say in a very few places that you can use Search to find a trap "before it is triggered" or similar. (It doesn't always, contrary to your claim; besides the Search skill description itself, DMG p.68 mentions Search several times without mentioning "before it is triggered".)

You read this as saying "when you search for it, it's about to go off and you're automatically racing to find it first". I read this as saying, "once it goes off, you don't need a Search check to find it".

I think logic is on my side. By your interpretation, you can't attempt to actively look for a tripwire; it's only possible to find it the moment before you trip over it. By your interpretation, specific doesn't just trump general, it completely rewrites it. The trap search rules as you read them are completely unrelated to the general Search skill description.

It is Spot, not Search, that is made as a reactive check. Search is a deliberate, Int-based attempt to find something, taking at least 6 seconds, not an instant check to determine whether you notice something. You would have the trap rules say that in this one instance, Search acts in a completely different manner that's more in line with Spot.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-21, 10:37 AM
Just what games have this limit? Even at Cons the limit is real world hours, not in-game time. What you describe sounds like a world where Dungeon Crawls are organized like Hunting Season, where there is only a 3 Orc bag limit or something like that.

Unless you lack casters, casters don't really want their buffs to fade. They have durations...

Taking 20 on every singe square takes a crapton of time. Eventually leading to buffs fading.

That's flat out RAW. It's not that you CANT take the time...it's just generally unwise unless you're particularly suspicious of a given spot.

Lord Loss
2010-08-21, 10:38 AM
You sir need yourself some Ravenwood traps. (Made by E. Ravenwood)

Here are a few. Not sure if they help:

I didn't write them, so don't blame any grammar errors on me.


1) Greedy Gas Trap

The PC's Enter large round room, maybe 60' in diameter. Across the room is a stone door with a really tough lock. The Party's Rogue will have to pick it for a long time, or the fighters will have to beat it for a while before it crumbles.
The ground is made of sand, and the ceiling appears to be made of glass, the topside of which is covered in gold coins. This is how you find out who the greedy guy in your party is. It only takes one projectile from a crossbow, sling, bow, etc. to completely shatter the glass. The weight of the coins causes it to break further, and all under the glass (everyone in the room) must make a Reflex save of whatever the DM deems fair or take 3d6 damage from the falling glass. About two rounds after, while everyone is buzzing around picking up gold pieces, they realize the glass was not only holding back coins. A poisonous gas begins seeping down towards the ground, and every round their in it, they have to make a Fort save or fall unconscious. That could put some pressure on the guy trying to get the door open. If they just run back the way they came, the DM could make it so that the room can't be entered again, and now they have to take "the long way" around.
(Ravenwood)

2) Treadmill Trap

The PC's enter a long hallway at a T-junction. There is a small step down into the hall, which appears to be about 70'-90' feet long and ten feet across. Down one end appears to be a dead in wall with a bunch of holes in it, down the other end appears to be a door. Once everyone is in the hallway, they here a grinding noise, and the floor starts to slowly move towards the dead end wall. They now notice the floor is made of rubber. The movement increases in speed until the PC's find themselves running. This is pretty much a big treadmill, and the wall with the holes in it now has spike sticking through them. Anyone who is taken into that wall will be impaled on the spikes for 5d6 damage (or however much you like.) In any case, the trick is to run as fast as you can, which could be difficult for heavily burdened or armed folk, and remember, you're only moving about 5-10 forward a turn. About ten feet in front of the door is a stone platform that
the players can jump onto for safety. For every round a PC remains on the treadmill, they have to roll a balance check of about 10 to stay on their feet. If they fail, then they lose about ten feet, and are that much more closer to the spikes.
There is a switch in the wall on the platform by the door that many will mistake to be the 'off' switch. The trick is the machine starts when all feet hit the rubber, and stop when all of them are off. Whoever hits the switch only reverses the direction of the treadmill, knocking everone still on it down and catapulting them onto the platform, perhaps breaking throught the door.
If you are the type of DM like I am, you will perhaps put some hulking bad guys on the other side of that door ready to hack & slash at the PC's who are out of breath and fatigued.
Have fun. (Ravenwood)

3) The Meat(shield) Fryer

The PC’s get to the end of a hall, and come upon a chain dangling from a hole in the ceiling and a smooth stone slab door. Written on the door is the message “A test of Strength Lies Beyond”. If your PC’s are smart, they will make it so their heavy hitters and fighters will be the first in the room for what lies ahead. The chain obviously opens the door, simply pulling down on it with a Strength Check of about 12 will open the door quite easily. Whoever grasps the chain will feel as though the metal links are wet.
When the chain is yoinked, the door is raised and the fighters rush in, ready for battle, but find a nearly empty room. The room is 100' long, and about 50' wide, and completely dark. There is a small step down through the threshold, leaving everyone standing in shin deep water. About thirty feet away, hanging from the ceiling, about five feet above the water, are two, fat, parallel metal bars, arcs of lightning bounce back and forth between them.
The PC’s will now hear a sickening, wooden crack. That was the ancient block and tackle system that allowed for such an easy Strength Check to lift a heavy stone door and two metal electrodes bursting into hundreds of pieces. The Strength Check to keep the door open and the electrodes in the air is now about 20 or higher. It should be noted that it is at about this point the PC holding the chain realizes his hands have been Sovereign Glued to the chain, and he cant let go. There are a few busted pillar pieces laying around inside the room the others could try to seek refuge on, but they would only allow one person to stay on. They could try to push these under the electrodes to keep them from breeching the water, but they weight about a ton a piece.
Another PC may go back through the door and help the other keep the chain pulled so that the electrodes and the door don’t plunge, but they too, will become glued to the chain.
If all else fails, and the PC holding the chain cannot keep the chain pulled down, all in the room are now trapped and will be electrocuted for 5d6 damage (or more >D) for every round the electrodes are in the water.
The trick is that at the end of the room sits a small table, and on it sits a tube of Universal Solvent with enough for one application. If the person can make it back to the door in time, they can fix the PC right up, unless of course, there are now two holding on to it.
Rather than just being a jerk, it might be a good idea to put a vast treasure in the room, give the PC’s reason to continue risking the chance of going back inside time after time.
If another PC is glues to the chain, it might be an entire side quest in itself to find a way to get him unstuck. (Ravenwood)


4) Treadmill Trap 2

The PC’s appear to step through a door in the middle of a very long hallway. There is a door to the left and a wall with spikes at the other end. If they venture out, they will note that the floor appears to made out of rubber. When the last person steps out onto the hallway, the party hears a low rumble then a whining noise. The floor suddenly begins to move towards the spiked wall. The PC's are basically on a large treadmill that begins pulling them

>------------------------|--|---------------------|----| 200' long
>------------------------------------------------------| Door
>-------------------------------------------------|----| 10' wide

towards danger. If the PC’s make a run for it they will have to make a Balance check of 15 to ensure they stay on , their feet while running on the conveyer belt. If they fail, they fall and zoom towards the spiked wall at about 50 feet a round and must make a Balance check of 15 just to stand back up. They should also realize that though they maybe able to move at 4x their regular speed, they only move a few feet every round. The last ten feet of the hall towards the left is stone, and the PC’s must make a Jump check of 14 to make it onto the stone floor. Once there, there is a switch in the wall. If the players assume it is a stop switch, they are wrong.
Throwing the switch merely reverses the direction of the treadmill. If any are unfortunate enough to hit the spikes, they take 3d8 piercing damage, an evilly aligned DM might make them diseased or poisoned. They will remain on the spike and take an additional 1d8 damage every round until someone throws the switch. When that occurs, the PC’s remaining must make a Balance check of 30 or fall to the ground as they are suddenly pitched forward, and eventually shot off the treadmill. The conveyer will not actually stop until everyone is off. PC’s on the treadmill being hurled into the PC’s on the stone floor near the door will end up doing lots of bludgeoning damage to each other and probably break through the door too.(Ravenwood)

5) Chimney Sweep

The players come to a room with what looks like a chimney, which is in fact a tunnel leading up. It is about a 200 foot climb, but the chimney is studded with smooth stones for many foot and hand holds. The tunnel is narrow, so the players will have to go one at a time up the chimney. About halfway up, there is a trigger stone. Whoever trips the stone will afterwards be awarded a Concentration check of 20 to remember what the stone felt like. Rough, and sharp.
The trigger stone releases a spiked weight that is in place at the very top of the chimney, and causes it to fall at an alarming speed. Faster than the PC’s can climb down, and they will probably find that just letting go and falling is the fastest way down. If the players make a successful jump check, the first ten feet of the fall go by with no damage, otherwise, every other ten feet they fall is 1d6 worth of gravity damage. If they are hit by the weight, they take 4d8 piercing damage, and another 1d8 bludgeoning from the weight itself, not to mention they weight will knock them free from the tunnel, and they take whatever falling damage is left. If there are multiple people in the tunnel, it is likely that one falling will cause a chain reaction to cause a massive pile up at the bottom of the chimney.
The weight will stop with a jerk about 10 feet from the bottom of the tunnel, and then slowly crank back up to its usual position as the trap resets itself. Every player has about a 50% chance of triggering the trap, but if the person who tripped it can remember what the trigger stone felt like, and divulges this info to the rest of the party, that percentage drops to about 5%.
Even if the PC’s think they can scramble up the tunnel while the trap is resetting itself are sorely mistaken, for if the trigger is tripped, no matter where the weight is, it will fall, and then start back up. (Ravenwood)

6) The Invisible Wall

This is more of a comical trap than anything that will cause damage. In a relatively short, narrow hallway, the floor is suddenly split by a five foot wide, ten foot across, and five foot deep pit. No problem. The first person who jumps across should have detected magic. About halfway across is an invisible wall. When the PC takes that running jump, he’ll hit that thing like a fly hitting a windshield, and then slowly slide down. The trick is to just climb down into the pit, walk under the wall, and climb up the other side. Hitting the wall with that running jump might cause 2d6 or so damage, but make it low.

7) Shredded Wheats

This is a good sadistic trap to put in a fighting arena. The room should be relatively large, and have lots of levels for fighting, with lots of cauldrons of burning tar for light, and other stuff. Put some heavy hitting enemies in the room, like some ogres or trolls. Ever some-odd feet, there is a five by five foot shaft. Falling in, or getting knocked into, rather, is a new level of pain all together. After good forty foot drop, the tunnel takes a 45 degree slope, and has protrusions in the surface much like a cheese grater. After so many feet of this (5d6 or 5d8 worth of damage) the player takes another vertical spill and lands in a forty by forty by five foot deep vat of salt water. This should probably just deal subdual damage, but it is very sadistic non the less. The only way he’s getting out is climb back out the way he went.

8) Cloaks of Darkness

Cloaker pit: A varient on the classic illusion pit have a cloaker hide in a pit with a darkness spell over it. Have the cloaker use its silent image ability to create an image of a foe, wait for char to fall in pit and be engulfed by cloaker. Should players figure it out have cloaker rise from pit and attack. (note cloaker needs to speak common to understand when players figure it out)

9)

The PCs are being pursued closely by multiple enemies (hopefully stronger than them or an illusion). The PCs come to a twisting hall (so they cannot charge away) with doors on either side. Inside every door the room immediately drops 20 ft onto spikes as they enter

10) Pitfall

Its true, this is a trap I just use for comic relief. The PC's enter a room that appears to a have a rope dangling from the ceiling. upon further inspection, it appears to lead up through a hole in the ceiling into blackness. In a true case of curiosity killing the PC, if anyone attempts to climb the rope, their weight opens a trap door underneath them and snaps the rope

11) Stairway to heaven

About halfway up a flight of steps is a false step. Its cover is made of brittle material, like disguised glass, and when stepped on with a certain weight shatters, and the PC's foot falls through. If he doesn't remove his foot carefully, and just pulls it on out, he'll relize his mistake, for there are spikes inside angled at about 45 degrees, so when his foot goes in, nothing happens, but when he tries to pull it out...have the PC take whatever damage you deem appropriate, but cut his base movement by half.

12) Rollin, Rollin, Rollin

In a 10' wide halway, make it pretty long, there appear to be pressure plates all along the floor. It looks as though who ever built the place didn't even go through the trouble of disguising them, and they are easily avoidable.
However, to tests ones greedy habits, ever so many feet down the hall is a platnum lever in the up position. They look really appealing, and a successful apraise check will show they are worth about 500 gp each.
They can break off with a strength check of 20, but if they miss the check there is a 50% chance they inadventantly threw the switch. Now it's time to see which of the part is the best sprinter.
A heavy thud echos through the hallway, and up the way they came, they can see three stone wheels, about the size of a modern day truck tire, rolling down the hallway, setting off all the pressure plates, sending up an array of traps from darts, arrows, gasses, acids, flames, etc.

13) Break me, and ye shall pass...

This is a good trap for the token meathead tank of the party. The party enters a long, wide hall that has no traps visable at first. After walking about thirty feet, a thick, wooden beam fires out from one wall of the corridor into the next, and a message carved on the wood states "Break me, and ye' shall pass". The Tank will take a wack at it, the beam has a harness of 12, and hp of 20. Once broken, the PCs will walk another 30' down the hall, and a stone beam will shoot out the same size and dimension as the wooden one. The message now says "Is that all ye' got?" The tank will take the challenge, and try to smash through again. Stone beam has a harness of 16, and an hp of 30.
Another 30' down the hall, and a steel beam shoots out with the message, "C'mon ye' bonnie lass, try an' break this un'." Steel beam has a hardness of 20, and an hp of 45.
After this one, the party gets about fifty feet down the corridor, almost to the end, when a thin wooden pole shoots across the corridor with the message, "Go ahead, laddy, make my day"
The wooden pole has a harness of 8 and an hp of 5, but what the tank doesn't know is that this is a staff of pain. When he (or she) breaks it, the tank is hit with 'Inflict serious wounds' (3d6+11 negative energy damage, will22/half) 'Eyebite' (target becomes becomes panicked, sickend and comotose for 8 hours, will22/negate) and 'Wrack' (Renders the victim helpless with pain for 24 hours, will22/negate)

14) Hobson's Choice

The PC's find a spot that looks promising for a search for traps (a door is best). When the rogue is done, he will have found that the trap is (flaming, acidic, gasious, etc.) and is tripped by motion detection as soon as the door is open, which means he has to open the door to disarm it, but everyone in a 10' spread on either side of the door has to be really still. However, as soon as the rogue pops the door open, the party sees on the other side a really hungry, growling (owl-bear, dire bear, displacer beast, etc), and he lunges towards the party. If the party flees they'll set off the trap, but the hungry beast will set it off anyway...

15)Go to the Ball...

The party has to walk up a very long, pretty steeply sloping corridor. At the bottom, they have to jump over a pit to continue up the corridor. At the top there's a large door. When opened, the party sees a steel ball rumbling and rolling towards them, picking up speed.

The party I DM'd this for assumed that the ball would fall into the pit, so they had to make it there, jump it, and let the ball fall in. In matter of fact, there's a one-way wall of force midway above the pit, triggered by the trap and lasting as long as it takes for the ball to get to the pit.

Going hell-for-leather down a sharp incline, your PC's are moving at a fair old clip, and the leap into a wall kinda hurts the first guy there. The PCs coming behind him need to make Reflex saves, otherwise they are unable to stop themselves and rocket straight into the pit as well

16) I spy with my little eye…

Tired of PC's who look through keyholes to see what lies ahead? Simple solution; there's an invisible needle sticking out of This particular keyhole, and they just impaled their eye on it.

17) Kobold Kamikaze

This trap works best on low level henchman, like kobolds or goblins, or something of the like. They are all wearing these vibrant red medallions that the party will truly want ( because they're greedy, duh) but what they do not realize that these kabolds are fanatics and will stop at nothing to prevent the party from taking another step in their dungeon. When the fight begins to sway in favor of the party, the kobolds will lead a charge into the party, all striking their medallions before they hit. The medallions explode, dealing
2d6 damage to everyone withing 5' of the explosion, which doesn't sound like much, but when you have a few dozen go off around the PC's, that's a lot of damage. Another thing, one explosion will trigger the others, so even the dead kobold's charges go off too

18) Breakdown

This is a good trap for the meathead of the party (as so many of these traps seem to target) But a heavy door in the wall of the castle your PC's are traveling through that leads to...nowhere. The door is set into the wall, and is un-openable When the hefty dude (or dudette) of the party tries to open it the old fashioned way, via a foot through the thing, the door gives way, and the PC needs to role a balance check, or fall out the side of the castle wall. Works particularly well on towers that are pretty darn high

19) Why all rogues should be women…

Four PCs come across a cubic pedestal with a button on top labelled "Press to Open." When all of the PCs are inside, the door shuts and four pressure plates rise at the four sides of the pedestal. If the PCs stand on the pressure plates and press the button, two metal rods bash each of them in the legs (deals damage as two Quarterstaff hits, Reflex to avoid, failure reduces their speed by 10 feet and gives them a -2 penalty on the upcoming Reflex Save) followed by larger metal rods to the groin (deals damage as a Club, Reflex to avoid damage, failure induces a Fortitude save to avoid being stunned, sickened, and becoming unconscious from the excruciating pain). If the PCs inspect the door, they find that it only shut, it didn't lock.

20) I prepared Explosive Runes This Morning...

A book that holds some information that is important for the adventure, which must be read. 'cept it's written in EXPLOSIVE RUNES. How to read it you ask? trap yerself in otiluke's res sphere or some such, and flip the pages with telekinesis.(there, and you thought raven was sadistic

21) Twist of The Knife... Er, Bridge

This can turn a wussy CR 5 ogre into a challenge that can slay a high-level character.
Okay, the set up:
Ogre: Rogue 2, 8 ranks in balance, improved bull rush feat.
Bridge: Suspended over lava/acid, a rope bridge [Literally-it is made out of ropes separated about 2 feet from each other.] Requires a DC 15 balance check to stay on while moving or if the bridge moves.
The Action: The ogre bull rushes the poor PCs into the lava, nailing them with 20D6 points of fire damage. The ogre could also shake the bridge from the end, forcing balance checks from the PCs.
22) Ants under a Magnifying Glass

A group of henchmen enter the room, and upon discovery of the party, initiate the engagment.
The floor tiles are white, so the sun shining through lights up the whole room, but it also makes a consentrated beam of solar light invisble to the eye. Anybody who crosses over the beam in any way, whether it by through fighting, grappling, shoving, falling, whatever, they immediatly take 3d8 heat damage. It is amazing how long it takes for PC's to figure out that the skylight is acting like a big magnifying glass, and I actually had a PC enter the beam to fight, and stood there fighting for a few rounds because he thought some spell caster was casting something on him so that he took 3d6 damage ever round with no save. What drove him insane was that a party of nothing but axe wielding orcs was attacking the party, so he thought the spellcaster was in cognito

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 10:40 AM
By RAW, you get a check when you're about to trigger a trap (to avoid doing so).
Where does it say that? From the Dungeon Master's Guide section on "TRAPS", page 67:
Creatures who succeed on a DC 20 Search check detect a simple mechanical trap before it is triggered.
...
A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. There is no mention of any "about to trigger" case. At any time before a trap is triggered, anyone may use the Search skill to try to find a simple mechanical trap, or a Rogue may use Search to try to locate a magical trap. Such checks fall under the standard rules for the skill, as I've already explained.

When a trap is already triggered, it's much too late to take a full-round action to Search its location.

Cespenar
2010-08-21, 10:41 AM
Not by the D&D rules, it doesn't. You can do all your Search checks from 10' away, without moving around, or closer to, the square you're checking.

Sorry, I forgot to clarify that it wasn't RAW but simply how I would rule.

lesser_minion
2010-08-21, 10:42 AM
Because it's confusing when you keep spouting your houserules like they're RAW.

I do no such thing. My houserules, for future reference, are that the take 20 rule doesn't exist and in certain circumstances you roll to see how long it takes to do something.

Read it how you like. I couldn't care less. But do not accuse people of doing things that they simply aren't doing.

Peregrine
2010-08-21, 10:44 AM
There is no mention of any "about to trigger" case.

I believe lesser_minion is reading "before it is triggered" and "before it goes off" (both from your quoted passage) as meaning "in the moment before it is triggered". Whereas I, and I would guess you, read it as meaning, "You can find a trap by (a) setting it off -- '*crunch* oh, hey, there it is' -- or (b) searching for it and beating the Search DC, thus finding it 'before it is triggered'."

Perhaps if it had been phrased "without having to trigger it first"?

Starbuck_II
2010-08-21, 10:45 AM
Unless you lack casters, casters don't really want their buffs to fade. They have durations...

Taking 20 on every singe square takes a crapton of time. Eventually leading to buffs fading.

That's flat out RAW. It's not that you CANT take the time...it's just generally unwise unless you're particularly suspicious of a given spot.

Would the casters perfer to die to the trap? I mean, what alternative is there?

Gnaeus
2010-08-21, 10:52 AM
Would the casters perfer to die to the trap? I mean, what alternative is there?

Summon Elemental reserve feat.
Wand of summon monster/summon undead/summon natures ally.
Planar binding.
Flunkies/captives/peasants/animals which are tricked/paid/forced/magically induced to go first.
Heavily buffing a tank with good saves, and healing him between traps (preferably with a cheap/free method, like a dread necro or a persist mass lesser vigor.)

There are probably others.

Greenish
2010-08-21, 10:52 AM
I do no such thing. My houserules, for future reference, are that the take 20 rule doesn't exist and in certain circumstances you roll to see how long it takes to do something.

Read it how you like. I couldn't care less. But do not accuse people of doing things that they simply aren't doing.If you're trying to convince someone that your reading is correct, it would help to provide a citation of the rules (SRD link or page reference will do) that supports your assertion, instead of just repeating your own take.

That a character with trap finding couldn't use it to find traps is a houserule.

Here's from Fire Trap spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) (for example): "Note: Magic traps such as fire trap are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a fire trap and Disable Device to thwart it."

What on earth could that mean? Better to look at the skill description of Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm):

"Action
It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side."

"The spells explosive runes, fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle create magic traps that a rogue can find by making a successful Search check and then can attempt to disarm by using Disable Device. Identifying the location of a snare spell has a DC of 23. Spike growth and spike stones create magic traps that can be found using Search, but against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details."

"Restriction
While anyone can use Search to find a trap whose DC is 20 or lower, only a rogue can use Search to locate traps with higher DCs. (Exception: The spell find traps temporarily enables a cleric to use the Search skill as if he were a rogue.)"


You maintain that using Search takes no action and can only be used reflectively against traps about to go off. Frankly, the rules do not support your stance at all.

[Edit]: Rules Compendium, pg. 114:
Search (Int)

The Search Skill lets a creature discern something through active effort. A searcher must be within 10 feet of the object or surface being searched. It takes a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or volume of goods 5 feet on a side.It then has a table with typical uses for Search and their DCs, which includes finding magical traps. There is no indication that traps would be any different.

jiriku
2010-08-21, 10:59 AM
My point is in the title.

In the campaign I'm currently DMing, next up we'll be playing a dungeon infested with traps. As I rarely put up traps, they are supposed to be kind of surprising. However, the paranoid party rogue checks every single nook and cranny for traps. This alone wouldn't be that annoying.

But he keeps taking 20 on his Search checks.
Because of this, the Search DC for the traps is practically worthless (as long as it is reachable with a 20) and the element of surprise is ruined.
If you take 20 while searching for traps, do you think it would be plausible to houserule that the multiple failures assumed when taking 20 would spring the trap? Or is it an actual rule? Also, should I roll the checks in secret so that they wouldn't know what the roll was? As if they roll a 5, they are sure to try again and again until they get a better number.

I can relate to your desire for springing sudden misery on your hapless players -- it's one of the chief joys of DMing. :smallbiggrin:

But there's a sort of a dichotomy here.

One of your players has invested skill ranks and class levels into being able to find traps consistently, and you permitted him to build this character.
You don't want your players to be able to find traps consistently.


If catching the PCs in traps is important to you, you shot yourself in the foot by permitting the players to accumulate resources they can use to protect themselves from traps. No fair nerfing the skill and class features after the fact -- the rogue player will feel cheated because you misled him into believing that his class features would be effective, and now that he's committed resources to being good at something, you steal away that effectiveness.

Moreover, exploring a dungeon cautiously and checking for traps in order to keep your skin whole is exactly the sort of thing most adventurers would do -- they're staying in character and they're doing some good roleplaying. Nerf the Search skill, and you're essentially telling them "no, your characters should be reckless with their lives and health in an area they know is dangerous."

However, there IS a way for you to get the nasty trappy things you want. The keys are the 10' range of the Search skill, the psychology of trap-building, and forced movement.

Here's an example, although it's rather densely built:
Put a pit trap in a room, and put the exit for the room at the bottom of the pit. Add a ladder along the side of the pit making it easy to climb up or down once the pit is opened. Also, put a pit trap in the bottom of the pit, with a second ladder leading up from there.

This is a series of 4 traps: the pit trap in the primary room, the put trap in the bottom of the pit, a blasting trap on the door at the bottom of the first pit, and a spike or dart trap on the ladder in the lower of the two nested pits.

You take advantage of the 10' range of search with the second pit trap: because the first pit is more than 10' deep, a rogue can't check the bottom of it without hovering over it or clinging to the bottom of the first ladder and awkwardly looking over his shoulder (which ought to impose a -2 penalty to Search checks anyhow).

You take advantage of psychology by providing a safe ladder in the first of the nested pits. Having learned to trust the first ladder-in-a-pit, they're likely to relax their guard and not check the second one for traps.

You take advantage of forced movement with the blasting trap on the door. If the players trigger it, they'll be blown into the pit-within-a-pit...thus setting them up for the trap on the lower ladder.

The key is to make it awkward to Search an area by requiring one to jump, fall, or climb to the trapped location, to manipulate psychology with chains of traps that lull players into feeling that the danger has passed after they find and disable the first or second trap, and to utilized forced movement to force players into trapped areas before they're ready.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 11:00 AM
I believe lesser_minion is reading "before it is triggered" and "before it goes off" (both from your quoted passage) as meaning "in the moment before it is triggered". Whereas I, and I would guess you, read it as meaning, "You can find a trap by (a) setting it off -- '*crunch* oh, hey, there it is' -- or (b) searching for it and beating the Search DC, thus finding it 'before it is triggered'."

Perhaps if it had been phrased "without having to trigger it first"?
I don't see how "by setting it off" is in any way compatible with the rules for Search. After all, it takes a full-round action to perform the check, and I see no mention of traps waiting 6 seconds between the trigger and the consequence. Also, you can do your Search for the trap 10' away from it. How would you be setting off the trap if you're 2 squares away from the triggering mechanism?

No, there's really no possibility within the rules for "before it is triggered" to mean "in the moment before it is triggered".

2xMachina
2010-08-21, 11:00 AM
Well, take 20 takes time... That's a pretty good drawback there. No one's gonna want to take half a day to move through the hallway.

On another note, I had a lvl 1 who can take 10 search for 20. Right off the bat.
I expect I could take 10 for 30 by lvl... 7?

Peregrine
2010-08-21, 11:09 AM
I don't see how "by setting it off" is in any way compatible with the rules for Search.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that there are two ways to discover a trap: one is by using the Search skill, and the other is, well... :smalltongue:

Fighter: I open the door.
DM: It's not locked, but as you turn the handle, *rolls* three darts shoot out of the wall and strike you in the back.
Rogue: Hmm, looks like the door was trapped.
Fighter: Ya think?

WarKitty
2010-08-21, 11:13 AM
You misunderstand me. I'm saying that there are two ways to discover a trap: one is by using the Search skill, and the other is, well... :smalltongue:

Fighter: I open the door.
DM: It's not locked, but as you turn the handle, *rolls* three darts shoot out of the wall and strike you in the back.
Rogue: Hmm, looks like the door was trapped.
Fighter: Ya think?

This would be the primary strategy my group uses. At least until the barbarian set off a symbol of pain (and of course is the only one to make the save, so he stands around like an idiot while the other characters swear at him).

Curmudgeon
2010-08-21, 11:52 AM
You misunderstand me. I'm saying that there are two ways to discover a trap: one is by using the Search skill, and the other is, well...
Oh, the classic Search vs. smirch (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/smirch) distinction!

lesser_minion
2010-08-22, 10:06 AM
If you're trying to convince someone that your reading is correct, it would help to provide a citation of the rules (SRD link or page reference will do) that supports your assertion, instead of just repeating your own take.

I gave my reference and my reasoning (the trap rules, pages 67-69 of the DMG, for reference. Page 68 specifically describes a check in response to a trap being there, not as a result of active searching).

I'll accept that I probably did coerce the text into supporting the view I presented, and I'll accept that my reading was wrong. And I'll apologise for starting this argument.

Greenish
2010-08-22, 11:59 AM
I gave my reference and my reasoning (the trap rules, pages 67-69 of the DMG, for reference. Page 68 specifically describes a check in response to a trap being there, not as a result of active searching).

I'll accept that I probably did coerce the text into supporting the view I presented, and I'll accept that my reading was wrong. And I'll apologise for starting this argument.Hmm, the "before it goes off" might refer to the glyph of X spells mentioned earlier in the section, or to traps with timed trigger. I admit it's not very clear, but notice what they say in the sidebar titled Behind the Curtain: Traps (also on pg. 67) on how "searching every square of foot of the dungeon corridor can get tedious for players and DM alike", which doesn't sound like it being an automatic response.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-22, 12:27 PM
Thing is, if you set off to search a room square by square, how do you know, really know, when to stop searching a square? If you're intent to search until you've discovered the trap, how can you stop until you HAVE found a trap?

Simply, you'll have to reach a point and guess that you've spent long enough. Which means that there IS a chance of a negative effect on failure, really. If you already know that a square MUST be trapped, then it's fair enough to search it till you find the trap, but if you are searching a whole dungeon, you really can't be sure.

Not without a bit of metagaming, anyway.

If you wanted to discourage this, just throw in a remotely activated trap or two, or some magically activated traps, perhaps symbols, that would be activated BY being found.

Greenish
2010-08-22, 12:35 PM
Thing is, if you set off to search a room square by square, how do you know, really know, when to stop searching a square? If you're intent to search until you've discovered the trap, how can you stop until you HAVE found a trap?

Simply, you'll have to reach a point and guess that you've spent long enough. Which means that there IS a chance of a negative effect on failure, really. If you already know that a square MUST be trapped, then it's fair enough to search it till you find the trap, but if you are searching a whole dungeon, you really can't be sure.Well, taking 20 means giving it your best shot. If you can't find anything in the 20 times longer than normal you spend on searching, it means that there is no trap, or if there is, you're incapable of finding it (until it goes off on you, that is).

So assumedly your character will realize that spending more than two minutes staring at the square will not help them.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-22, 12:40 PM
Here's my take: Don't use traps unless a fight starts there, and tell the players that beforehand. Better to meta-game the searching only in those tense moments than to meta-game some stupid rule to punish players who took rogues, who have their little niche threatened.
If an ass of a gm decides to punish his players, every player should better start rolling spell-casters and send legions of summoned monsters to trigger the trap and be done with it, or punch the gm in the face and stop playing with him or her.

Ravens_cry
2010-08-22, 12:41 PM
That's what taking 20 IS, getting the best possible result by taking a huge increase in time spent. It's not indefinite, and it's not infinite, you're just doing your best by being very very, methodical.
I disagree, lesser_minion. Taking 20 helps speed up gameplay when you absolutely have to find something.

candycorn
2010-08-22, 01:00 PM
Taking 20 isn't a bad thing. But when a dungeon occupies 300 total squares, that's 10 hours to search the floors only.

Add in another 2 minutes for every door, double the time if some traps are ceiling based, and quadruple it if it's got floor, wall, and ceiling traps.

That's 40 hours +2 minutes for every door.

Add in patrols (10-15% random encounter chance every hour), intelligent creatures that know where the traps are and run through infested areas you get reinforcements, and more...

And taking 20 becomes less viable.

Zaq
2010-08-22, 01:34 PM
(People get really weird with Search and DD checks... speaking anecdotally, I've seen that pair of skills slapped with more bizarre houserules and, in my opinion, stupidly narrow-minded rulings than any other skills.)

One of the best bits of advice I ever heard for running a game is that you should only roll the dice when both success and failure are interesting. That's the only time that rolling dice actually moves the game along... otherwise you're just rolling because you like making little plastic things bounce around. The archetypical example is Open Lock. So, you come across a locked door, right, and you know (from a really good search check, a divination of some kind, or whatever) that it's not trapped, just locked. So the rogue rolls to open the lock. If he succeeds, that's kind of interesting. If he fails, that's really not interesting. The party is just sitting there waiting for him to try again. However, just having him roll over and over isn't fun. The Take 20 rule exists so that this process can take very little table time, even if it takes a fair bit of game time. This isn't a bad thing. A character who has invested a lot of training and resources in being a skilled lockbreaker should be good at opening things. If you just set the DC higher than the rogue can get on a 20, those aren't doors, those are walls, and you're honestly just being kind of mean to the player.

Search isn't terribly different. I would argue that the whole trap-searching issue has a very real tendency to fail the "both success and failure are interesting" test. It's not guaranteed, of course... certainly, it's POSSIBLE to make traps fun. It just takes work. Overall, though, your vanilla traps just aren't that interesting that it's really worth sitting down and rolling until you get the result you want. And if you just make your traps unfindable... well, you may as well just tell that to the party trapmonkey ahead of time, so he can just spend those skills on Craft (Basketweaving) and Perform (Nose Flute) instead.

I really don't see what the issue is. Why are you so invested in a party falling into your traps despite taking reasonable and appropriate precautions against exactly that? Do you get upset when the party hits a monster that has high AC, because they're supposed to miss?

lesser_minion
2010-08-22, 01:56 PM
One of the best bits of advice I ever heard for running a game is that you should only roll the dice when both success and failure are interesting. That's the only time that rolling dice actually moves the game along... otherwise you're just rolling because you like making little plastic things bounce around. The archetypical example is Open Lock. So, you come across a locked door, right, and you know (from a really good search check, a divination of some kind, or whatever) that it's not trapped, just locked.

Yes, that's reasonable advice.


That's what taking 20 IS, getting the best possible result by taking a huge increase in time spent. It's not indefinite, and it's not infinite, you're just doing your best by being very very, methodical.
I disagree, lesser_minion. Taking 20 helps speed up gameplay when you absolutely have to find something.

Personally, I don't think there's any point to any of the skills that are retry-with-no-consequence. If you have a check like that, I think the game expects you to ask the wrong question.

With a lock, it seems entirely reasonable for "can I open this?" to be solely down to the numbers on your sheet, so why make a roll to answer that question?

It makes more sense (to me, at least) to ask "how quickly can I open this?". That would turn it into a single dice roll, with no retry. And if you still don't want to roll, you can take 10.

Finding items could probably work the same way, but even if it's just 1st edition talking, I don't think finding concealed dungeon features should be deterministic.

There's probably no problem given the sheer amount of time the players would be taking to search the dungeon, but I don't see the need for six pages of rules that amount to "whether or not the PCs discover a trap is down to DM fiat".

I agree with the OP on this. If taking 20 is reducing trap finding to DM fiat, then it would be worth seeking an alternative.

To the OP: You could try making it no retry and simply awarding a bonus for greater caution. That rewards players for being more cautious and/or investing in trapfinding abilities, without making it an absolute guarantee.

Aroka
2010-08-22, 02:57 PM
Personally, I don't think there's any point to any of the skills that are retry-with-no-consequence. If you have a check like that, I think the game expects you to ask the wrong question.

Pretty much, yes. The only time a "you can keep trying until you succeed" challenge is a challenge is when time is of the essence.

Dungeonscape really hit on this for me (and 4E really improved on it) - traps by themselves only work if you intentionally start off the arms race of paranoia - you come up with more and more twisted traps that he PCs won't think to look for, and the PCs come up with more and more inane ways to waste time looking for those traps.

Traps should be used as parts of actual encounters, or in places where the PCs won't have the luxury of taking the time to search them.

One of my favorite 4E encounter ideas is a trap with blades swinging out of the walls randomly the length of a corridor, and goblins shifting around in the right rhythm to avoid them (the PCs would, obviously, pick up on this very fast). Rather than just being a "roll dice or BANG" deal, the trap modifies the encounter and makes it more challenging.

panaikhan
2010-08-22, 03:26 PM
The thief in our party, is a 'Bag of Tricks' - owned by the evil cleric.

lesser_minion
2010-08-22, 03:31 PM
The thief in our party, is a 'Bag of Tricks' - owned by the evil cleric.

There's that, but if traps are a serious threat at all, it probably won't help you much. If an alarm is raised, it's unlikely to matter that it was raised by a trained tortoise as opposed to a clumsy cleric. The same generally goes for water traps and vacuum traps.

panaikhan
2010-08-22, 03:39 PM
Some published dungeons are written specifically in mind of the 'take 20' rule.

The world's largest dungeon, for example.
If the party's thief doesn't have his level's maximum in search / disable device, he stands little or no chance to find any of the traps in the section unless he takes 20, and still stands every chance of setting them off if he finds them.