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View Full Version : Logic to the un-logic! [3.5]



SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 02:44 AM
I don't know if this topic already exists on the forum, but as you probably know, searching for old topics is really a pain.

So, this topic is devoted to making up logical explanations to things in DnD that most find un-logical.

Example:
W (Weird): Power Word Kill and such spells taking nine pages of space in your spellbook, even though casting them only takes a standard action (about three seconds).
E (Explanation): Powerful spells, when written, include complex diagrams, symbols, notes and perhaps poem-like long incantations. It all is simply activated with a single or few words; in this case, "Kill".

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-21, 04:37 AM
The power word spells are indeed each a word, but the word that appears at the end of each of the spells' names is just a summary of what the word does, not the actual word that completes the spell. Each of them is an ancient word of arcane power, completely foreign to any current language. Each word is comprised of several syllables, long enough to take a standard action to speak. There could be pages of pronunciation for each syllable, notes on emphasis and tone, etc. The word is so unlike everything you've ever spoken before that your natural instinct will be to mispronounce it, but by doing so in even the slightest way it would become meaningless babble. Once you understand how the word is to be properly spoken you need to note every last detail about it lest you make a mistake.

Daremonai
2010-08-21, 05:05 AM
Assuming that you don't already, try learning to speak Chinese* - and have a native speaker on hand to correct you. If you mispronounce any part of the word, either you've said something else, or just gibberish. Trying to record such things in the Latin alphabet (pinyin, or whatever you want to call it) relies heavily on a series of accent marks to approximate the pronunciation, but still only really acts as a reminder rather than an explanation.

Power Words are even pickier than that. Those nine pages discuss the pronunciation in excrutiating detail, because anything less will fail.


*or any other language that relies very heavily on the tone and pronunciation of its vowel sounds. Chinese was just the first one I thought of.

Cespenar
2010-08-21, 05:06 AM
No. There's a better explanation than all that.

It's one word, but it never says that it's a short word. :smalltongue:

DemLep
2010-08-21, 05:22 AM
This is actually explained in the books, just not with the spell specifically. When wizards prepare there spells in the morning they are actually completing the first part of the spell, the more powerful the spell the longer the first part is. This way they only have to do a short second part to activate the spell when needed. Power Word spells are longer than one word, but only one word is used to activate them.

EvilJoe15
2010-08-21, 05:39 AM
W: You can hide behind a tower shield, while hiding the shield it's self.
E: You're Solid Snake, and this is MGS. Or. The resulting paradox creates a miniture sigularaty that bends the fabric of space-time around you so that you appear nearly invisible.

DemLep
2010-08-21, 05:45 AM
You are hiding behind the shield and the shield is hidden, then would you not be hidden through the transitive property? Or am I reading something wrong?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-21, 05:55 AM
W: you can heal people by drowning them.

E: adrenaline.

Cespenar
2010-08-21, 06:31 AM
W: you can heal people by drowning them.

E: adrenaline.

Or, the external pressure of whatever medium it is drowning you stops your wounds from bleeding further. :smalltongue:

Shademan
2010-08-21, 06:36 AM
W: dwarves get a bonus to hit goblins because they have developed tactics to fight them. but goblins have NOT developed dwarf-fighting tactics despite no penalty to INT.
E: goblins are peaceful pacifists

SilverLeaf167
2010-08-21, 09:15 AM
Actually, most of my goblins are neutral or even good. Orcs, on the other hand, and most other savage species, are evil.

Bayar
2010-08-21, 09:15 AM
W: dwarves get a bonus to hit goblins because they have developed tactics to fight them. but goblins have NOT developed dwarf-fighting tactics despite no penalty to INT.
E: goblins are peaceful pacifists

E: Goblins get slaughtered by dwarves before perfecting any dwarf fighting tactics. Supported heavily by Dwarf Fortress.

Shademan
2010-08-21, 09:27 AM
hence why the goblins adventurers meet are evil. they have all had their clans butchered by dwarves and is so consumed with revenge that they become evil.
ergo: dwarves cause evil!

tyckspoon
2010-08-21, 10:19 AM
You are hiding behind the shield and the shield is hidden, then would you not be hidden through the transitive property? Or am I reading something wrong?

Step 1: Set up a Tower Shield. This provides Total Cover, allowing you to Hide.
Step 2: Roll a good Hide check. You- and your equipment- are now visually undetectable, as per Invisibility.
Step 3: Your Tower Shield, as part of your equipment, is now visually undetectable. It's also the thing that is providing the cover that allows you to Hide..

Basically, imagine something like a magician's vanishing act. A dude walks up to you, puts up a sheet. He disappears behind the sheet, and then the sheet falls to the ground. Dude's gone.. and then when you look for it, the sheet's gone too.

Aotrs Commander
2010-08-21, 11:17 AM
Basically, imagine something like a magician's vanishing act. A dude walks up to you, puts up a sheet. He disappears behind the sheet, and then the sheet falls to the ground. Dude's gone.. and then when you look for it, the sheet's gone too.

And suddenly, it occurs to me how those paper screens ninja use in (among others) in Naruto. They most grant total cover.

UserClone
2010-08-21, 08:09 PM
Very simple: I as the DM call shenanigans on the drowning heal and the hiding tower shield, and the game moves on without such nonsense occuring.

Crasical
2010-08-21, 09:37 PM
Very simple: I as the DM call shenanigans on the drowning heal and the hiding tower shield, and the game moves on without such nonsense occuring.

Aww. But the 'nonsense' with the tower shield is kind of cool, insofar as the vanishing act/ninja paper visualization goes.

DemLep
2010-08-21, 09:41 PM
Step 1: Set up a Tower Shield. This provides Total Cover, allowing you to Hide.
Step 2: Roll a good Hide check. You- and your equipment- are now visually undetectable, as per Invisibility.
Step 3: Your Tower Shield, as part of your equipment, is now visually undetectable. It's also the thing that is providing the cover that allows you to Hide..

Basically, imagine something like a magician's vanishing act. A dude walks up to you, puts up a sheet. He disappears behind the sheet, and then the sheet falls to the ground. Dude's gone.. and then when you look for it, the sheet's gone too.

This sounds like munchkin logic to me. I think the tower shield wouldn't count as being hidden because you are behind it. I'd rule the tower shield visible.

Yukitsu
2010-08-21, 09:42 PM
This sounds like munchkin logic to me. I think the tower shield wouldn't count as being hidden because you are behind it. I'd rule the tower shield visible.

Well yeah, but this entire thread is about stupid RAW stuff that should either be houseruled, or just ignored.

olelia
2010-08-21, 09:56 PM
W: Commoner Rail Gun
E: Somehow the object moves a great distance without increasing its velocity...or something that still makes my brain hurt.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-21, 09:59 PM
I don't know if this topic already exists on the forum, but as you probably know, searching for old topics is really a pain.

So, this topic is devoted to making up logical explanations to things in DnD that most find un-logical.

Example:
W (Weird): Power Word Kill and such spells taking nine pages of space in your spellbook, even though casting them only takes a standard action (about three seconds).
E (Explanation): Powerful spells, when written, include complex diagrams, symbols, notes and perhaps poem-like long incantations. It all is simply activated with a single or few words; in this case, "Kill".

Casting it is a standard action.

However, you will note that you can't cast it an infinite number of times per day, just for the recital. The word itself is not, strictly speaking, the most important part (you can have a Silent Spell Power Word Blind, and it's still just as effective). The spell is not so much a single word, as it is a bunch of layers of power, built up, caged, and keyed to a single word. Once you speak it, it's gone. If you try to speak it again, nothing happens, because you don't have those layers of power built up, caged, and keyed to that single word anymore.

Those pages in your spellbook? They're describing how to properly build up, cage, and key those layers of power.

Eurus
2010-08-21, 11:46 PM
W: Commoner Rail Gun

E: Creatures in D&D are actually nebulous entities who exist in a state of quantum uncertainty. That's why every human, regardless of height and weight, occupies a perfect 5' cube and why a rogue can dodge a fireball even while unconscious. So when a creature hands off an object like that, it doesn't actually cross the distance, but simply appears where it is directed. :smallamused:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-22, 01:42 AM
and why a rogue can dodge a fireball even while unconsciousA helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#rogueEvasion)
+
Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious)

so no

Cespenar
2010-08-22, 04:13 AM
W: Commoner Rail Gun
E: Somehow the object moves a great distance without increasing its velocity...or something that still makes my brain hurt.

Meh, it's easy. See, in d&d, each being capable of performing actions possess their own spacetime continuum. So, when an object is being given from one commoner to another, the object doesn't gain velocity in an axis that we can perceive, it gains velocity in another axis, allowing it to be moved from one continuum to another. To us, the object doesn't move but rather disappear here and appear there. Thus, a series of actions that actually takes a lot of time seems like an instant to us, because of our limited perception.

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 04:20 AM
Meh, it's easy. See, in d&d, each being capable of performing actions possess their own spacetime continuum. So, when an object is being given from one commoner to another, the object doesn't gain velocity in an axis that we can perceive, it gains velocity in another axis, allowing it to be moved from one continuum to another. To us, the object doesn't move but rather disappear here and appear there. Thus, a series of actions that actually takes a lot of time seems like an instant to us, because of our limited perception.

Not quite. Momentum of an object is given by mass * velocity. Because velocity is not increasing and momentum is always preserved, mass must be increasing :D. Something very much like this happened to my group recently. We had to escape a mile-deep hole via roller coaster. At the bottom of our ascent, the psion cast skate on the cart, I cast mass reduce person on our party, and the other wizard cast shrink object on the cart. Our mass dropped dramatically, so our velocity skyrocketed. About 15,000 feet into the air :smallbiggrin:.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-22, 05:04 AM
W: Paladins can't take a level of Priest of the same deity and then come back as Paladins, even though they still follow the same code of conduct.

E: Paladins are arrogant jackass who think they' re even better than Priests of the same church.

Bayar
2010-08-22, 05:12 AM
W: Paladins can't take a level of Priest of the same deity and then come back as Paladins, even though they still follow the same code of conduct.

E: Paladins are arrogant jackass who think they' re even better than Priests of the same church.

E: Paladins and monks think they are playing World of Warcraft, where if you change class means you re-rolled a character...

Peregrine
2010-08-22, 05:24 AM
Well yeah, but this entire thread is about stupid RAW stuff that should either be houseruled, or just ignored.

Really? I read it as "things that seem odd but can be made logically consistent with the game world (preferably without changing RAW)". A power word spell is an example of this. (My personal variation is that you're harnessing phenomenal cosmic power that is released by a word, but is harnessed by all that other stuff.) Justifying commoner railguns and drown-healing are not consistent with a (serious, believable) fantasy-medieval world.

W: Elves take a century to gain the same first-level benefits as any other race.
E: Elves are dabblers with short attention spans, especially young elves. They only focus on learning one thing for a very short amount of time before going on to something else. They also don't study intensely like humans do; they prefer to "study by immersion", very slowly. Adventurer-elves gain XP at the same rate as anyone else, showing that elves aren't thick -- they can focus and learn fast, if they want to -- but they're unusual among elves, and even they only devote a "short" time (a human lifetime, maybe two) to this "focus".

For the record, I intensely dislike the Races of the Wild elves that grow and learn as fast as humans, and then... err... they, umm...? :smalltongue:

Oslecamo
2010-08-22, 05:26 AM
W: you can heal people by drowning them.

E: adrenaline.

Actualy, scientific studies have showed that cuting the oxygen supply of a person in a controled manner can reduce it's metabolism wich will stop certain diseases and problems. You cannot bleed yourself to death if your heart is almost stoped, reducing the pressure on your cut blood arteries and allow them to close themselves naturally.

BobVosh
2010-08-22, 06:38 AM
W: Once you start drowning, you never can stop.
E: Obviously you have pissed off the over diety, Dee-Emm. You dared to heal by using water.

W: Elf + Human = Half Elf. Half Elf + Half Elf= Half elf. Elf + half Elf=Half Elf. Half elf + human = Half Elf. How are there any elves and humans left? Or at least not a huge thriving community of HEs?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-22, 07:02 AM
W: Elf + Human = Half Elf. Half Elf + Half Elf= Half elf. Elf + half Elf=Half Elf. Half elf + human = Half Elf. How are there any elves and humans left? Or at least not a huge thriving community of HEs?

E: Most worlds I've heard of have one of

Half-elf + human = human, i.e. it always goes "down" to humanness
Half-elf + human = 50% chance of each; half-elf + elf = 50% chance of each; half-elf + half-elf = 50% chance of half-elf, 25% each of elf or human; this matches with the way genetics is explained in most high schools
Half-elves being sterile (ouch)
Half-elves being very rare, because most elves aren't attracted to humans all that much
There being no functional difference between "half-elf" and "human who is a bit prettier than most and has somewhat odd ears"

Bayar
2010-08-22, 07:46 AM
W: Elf + Human = Half Elf. Half Elf + Half Elf= Half elf. Elf + half Elf=Half Elf. Half elf + human = Half Elf. How are there any elves and humans left? Or at least not a huge thriving community of HEs?

E: They are not playing in Eberron.

Morty
2010-08-22, 08:04 AM
There are half-elven communties in other settings, as well. There's one in Yuriwood in Faerun.
Anyway, my personal take on Half-Elves breeding is that two half-elves produce a half-elf, a human and half-elf produce a slightly elfish human and a half-elf and an elf produce a humanish elf. It doesn't make much sense, but fantasy half-breeds generally don't.

Peregrine
2010-08-22, 09:00 AM
This makes me want to write stats for elf-human mixes with less than half blood from one side; sort of to half-elves as planetouched are to half-{fiend|celestial}s, only in less generations. "Elftouched" humans and "humantouched" elves.

Thus: Elf + human = half-elf Elf + half-elf = humantouched elf Human + half-elf = elftouched human Half-elf + half-elf = 50% half-elf, 25% elftouched human, 25% humantouched elf Elf + humantouched elf = humantouched elf Human + elftouched human = elftouched human In all other cases, the child of a "touched" human or elf is the same as for a regular human or elf.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-22, 09:35 AM
W: dwarves get a bonus to hit goblins because they have developed tactics to fight them. but goblins have NOT developed dwarf-fighting tactics despite no penalty to INT.
E: goblins are peaceful pacifists
The Tome series gets a lot of flak (some of it quite justified), but the Races of War explanation (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/A_World_at_War#The_Stone_Ledger:_The_Dwarves_Remem ber) for this has always been my favorite.

Yora
2010-08-22, 10:40 AM
W: dwarves get a bonus to hit goblins because they have developed tactics to fight them. but goblins have NOT developed dwarf-fighting tactics despite no penalty to INT.
E: goblins are peaceful pacifists
Goblins never survive to learn something of their encounters with dwarves. :smallbiggrin:

EvilJoe15
2010-08-22, 12:17 PM
W: Undead can be Druids.
E: The flow of positive, and negative energy is just as natural as the flow of the seasons. Undead can naturally rise as part of this flow of energy, and even revere, or worship that flow.

dgnslyr
2010-08-22, 03:52 PM
W:
W: Elf + Human = Half Elf. Half Elf + Half Elf= Half elf. Elf + half Elf=Half Elf. Half elf + human = Half Elf. How are there any elves and humans left? Or at least not a huge thriving community of HEs?

Half-Elf is a misnomer, it refers to any individual with some (1/4? 1/8?) elven ancestry.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-22, 03:54 PM
W: Undead can be Druids.
E: The flow of positive, and negative energy is just as natural as the flow of the seasons. Undead can naturally rise as part of this flow of energy, and even revere, or worship that flow.
Wow, I was totally in the middle of writing a prestige class for exactly this when you said that. Hah, strange coincidences.

Yahzi
2010-08-22, 04:53 PM
So, this topic is devoted to making up logical explanations to things in DnD that most find un-logical.
I made up an explanation for a lot of things: why lords protect peasants, why wizards can be paid to make magic items, why adventurers go on side-quests, why so much magic seems dedicated to killing things; and more.

The answer is: XP is tangible, just like gold. It comes from the minds of sentient beings, and is equal in value to 5 gold a point (implying that's how much labor it takes to produce it - raising a peasant to an age where he is worth 1/2 CR = the gold value of the XP you get from him).

Check out my sig for more detail.

Coidzor
2010-08-22, 05:10 PM
I made up an explanation for a lot of things: why lords protect peasants, why wizards can be paid to make magic items, why adventurers go on side-quests, why so much magic seems dedicated to killing things; and more.

The answer is: XP is tangible, just like gold. It comes from the minds of sentient beings, and is equal in value to 5 gold a point (implying that's how much labor it takes to produce it - raising a peasant to an age where he is worth 1/2 CR = the gold value of the XP you get from him).

Check out my sig for more detail.

Ah, I was wondering who had that link to that stuff about Tael.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-22, 06:15 PM
A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#rogueEvasion)
+
Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious)

so no

Well, the rogue can't completely dodge it, but he can partially dodge it - aka, normal save. Which is still silly, in my opinion.

Yahzi
2010-08-22, 07:12 PM
Ah, I was wondering who had that link to that stuff about Tael.
Is that because you thought it was a good Explanation... or because you thought it was one of the Weird things that needed explaining? :smallbiggrin:

prufock
2010-08-22, 07:16 PM
Step 1: Set up a Tower Shield. This provides Total Cover, allowing you to Hide.
Step 2: Roll a good Hide check. You- and your equipment- are now visually undetectable, as per Invisibility.
Step 3: Your Tower Shield, as part of your equipment, is now visually undetectable. It's also the thing that is providing the cover that allows you to Hide..

Basically, imagine something like a magician's vanishing act. A dude walks up to you, puts up a sheet. He disappears behind the sheet, and then the sheet falls to the ground. Dude's gone.. and then when you look for it, the sheet's gone too.

Emphasis mine. I just read through the SRD and PHB Hide skill descriptions. Where did you get the idea that everything you're carrying hides with you?

olelia
2010-08-22, 08:02 PM
Because its Rules as Written...not Rules as Not Written?

Ozymandias9
2010-08-22, 08:20 PM
W: Elf + Human = Half Elf. Half Elf + Half Elf= Half elf. Elf + half Elf=Half Elf. Half elf + human = Half Elf. How are there any elves and humans left? Or at least not a huge thriving community of HEs?

L: Clearly, D&D worlds operate under a modified version of Lamarkian Evolution. The size of the ears or the hairiness of the beard become less pronounced each generation because the half-elf parents try to minimize the notability of their tainted parentage to fit in with their chosen society. Thus, after a certain number of generations, the offspring of half-elves become indistinguishable from the mainstream of the society they live in.

Or, in short, inheritance of acquired characteristics. It's the same basic principle by which giraffes ancestors stretching to reach higher leaves led to modern giraffes having long necks. Clearly this is an unimpeachable position.

Wonton
2010-08-22, 08:49 PM
W: Any Rogue, starting at 2nd level, can be undamaged in the center of an Epic-level Wizard's 40-ft spread or 120-ft cone.
E: Every Rogue actually has an infinity of Conjurer souls bound within them, allowing them to Abrupt Jaunt any distance away and then back to their spot.

FMArthur
2010-08-22, 08:58 PM
W: Any Rogue, starting at 2nd level, can be undamaged in the center of an Epic-level Wizard's 40-ft spread or 120-ft cone.
E: Every Rogue actually has an infinity of Conjurer souls bound within them, allowing them to Abrupt Jaunt any distance away and then back to their spot.

The effect is just imperfect coverage, with small gaps rapidly wavering within the area of effect.

darkpuppy
2010-08-22, 08:59 PM
All Rogues with Improved Evasion know they really live in The Matrix. :smalltongue:

Wonton
2010-08-22, 09:43 PM
W: A spellcaster's spell component pouch contains the necessary costless material components for any spell, ever.

E: Spell component pouches are actually animated constructs with Summon Component as an at-will SLA.

P.S. Also explains why a seemingly regular, non-magical belt pouch costs 5gp.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-22, 10:29 PM
L: Clearly, D&D worlds operate under a modified version of Lamarkian Evolution. The size of the ears or the hairiness of the beard become less pronounced each generation because the half-elf parents try to minimize the notability of their tainted parentage to fit in with their chosen society. Thus, after a certain number of generations, the offspring of half-elves become indistinguishable from the mainstream of the society they live in.

Or, in short, inheritance of acquired characteristics. It's the same basic principle by which giraffes ancestors stretching to reach higher leaves led to modern giraffes having long necks. Clearly this is an unimpeachable position.

I always operate under a similar assumption to this with any cross-breed fantasy races. I kinda assumed that most people did. My assumption list is:

A) You have two races, humans and elves.
B) The two races can interbreed and produce fertile offspring.
C) With each successive generation, aspects of one race or the other may be diminished/enhanced as the blood percentage decreases/increases until such a point where the individual is simply considered a member of one of the two races, but with ancestry that includes the other race.
D) Some examples:

Example A: Half-Elf diluting into Human

Generation 1) Elf + Human = Half-Elf
Generation 2) Half-Elf + Human = Quarter-Elf; considered a half-elf in terms of D&D stats and racial profiling, but has less pronounced elven features than a true half-elf.
Generation 3) Quarter-Elf + Human = Eighth-Elf; can be considered a half-elf OR a human in terms of D&D stats and racial profiling. Has obviously Elven heritage, but looks mostly human.
Generation 4) Eighth-Elf + Human = Sixteenth-Elf; considered a human in terms of D&D stats and racial profiling. To casual observation appears fully human, but if you look closely you can see slightly Elven features.
Generation 5) Sixteenth-Elf + Human = Human; the elven blood has thinned so much that the individual has little or no traits left that resemble elves at all, and the individuals offspring type is calculated as though this individual were fully human.

Example B: Half-Elf Diluting into Elf
Exactly the same as Example B, only swap "Human" and "Elf".

Example Set C: Part-Elves

Generation 1) Human + Elf = Half-Elf
Generation 2a) Half-Elf + Half-Elf = Half-Elf
Generation 2b) Half-Elf + Quarter-Elf = 3/8-Elf; can be considered either a Half-Elf or a Quarter-Elf (for simplicity's sake)
Generation 2c) Half-Elf + Eighth-Elf = 3/16-Elf; can be considered either a Quarter-Elf or an Eighth-Elf (for simplicity's sake)
Generation 2d) Half-Elf + Sixteenth-Elf = can be considered either an Eighth-Elf or a Sixteenth-Elf (for simplicity's sake)

UserClone
2010-08-23, 12:32 AM
All Rogues with Improved Evasion know they really live in The Matrix. :smalltongue:

"There is no spoon."
I love this one!


W: A spellcaster's spell component pouch contains the necessary costless material components for any spell, ever.

E: Spell component pouches are actually animated constructs with Summon Component as an at-will SLA.

P.S. Also explains why a seemingly regular, non-magical belt pouch costs 5gp.

I actually make spellcasters wait until they are in a town with a magic shop or at least someplace where they could procure the proper materials, though it doesn't cost them any gold.

Zeful
2010-08-23, 12:37 AM
I don't know if this topic already exists on the forum, but as you probably know, searching for old topics is really a pain.

So, this topic is devoted to making up logical explanations to things in DnD that most find un-logical.

Example:
W (Weird): Power Word Kill and such spells taking nine pages of space in your spellbook, even though casting them only takes a standard action (about three seconds).
E (Explanation): Powerful spells, when written, include complex diagrams, symbols, notes and perhaps poem-like long incantations. It all is simply activated with a single or few words; in this case, "Kill".

I found that a better explanation being: Power Word spells aren't a single word, but a complex magical theory to weaponize words with the desired effect. Power Word: Kill isn't one word that can kill lesser beings, or else anyone could learn it and it wouldn't be a spell.

Cespenar
2010-08-23, 12:42 AM
W: A spellcaster's spell component pouch contains the necessary costless material components for any spell, ever.


Optional E: Every wizard is an optimizer. In everything they do.

darkpuppy
2010-08-23, 12:59 AM
W: Umber Hulk's Confusing Gaze, which appears to have no rationale behind it. Allow me to be the first...
E: Adventurers are not renowned for their intelligence (otherwise they'd be selling magic items and spells and shizzle to their less intellectually endowed brethren), and have a heckuva lot of trouble working out which pair of eyes actually does the seeing.

TORDEK: I think it sees us.
MIALEE: How can you tell?
TORDEK: Because it's little eyes are looking straight at us.
MIALEE: But it's big eyes look closed, and its little eyes don't have eyelids!
TORDEK: Dammit, you're right, maybe it can't see us! Maybe the little ones are eyespots!
MIALEE: Oh, god, I'm so confused!!!

EDIT: In 3E MM, possibly in 3.5E MM, the little eyes don't have lids as such, and the compound eyes have this huge stripe across the middle that makes them look like compound eyelids...

Morithias
2010-08-23, 01:19 AM
W: Paladins can't take a level of Priest of the same deity and then come back as Paladins, even though they still follow the same code of conduct.

E: Paladins are arrogant jackass who think they' re even better than Priests of the same church.

I believe this might be it.

E: The player's handbook states that being a paladin is actually more of a 'calling' than just choosing it. I see leaving Paladin part way through the class sort of like leaving a mission halfway through. Sure you didn't get the gem, but the traps aren't going to reset, and the monsters aren't going to be raised from the dead. Once you left the mission and said you're not going to do it, the gods don't take what you did away, but they do stop feeding it to you, focusing their divine resources elsewhere, on another potent paladin. The reason you cannot go back is the same reason the cleric who sent you on the mission in the first place won't let you go again....the next guy finished it. The cleric isn't going to send you to pick up a gem, that isn't at the temple anymore.

hamishspence
2010-08-23, 04:07 AM
Faerun does drop some of this- allowing paladins of certain orders to multiclass according to certain restrictions.

Complete Adventurer also has "Devoted X" feats for paladins who want to multiclass as something else and still keep taking paladin levels.

I tried applying a bit of logic to the question of "Why are some uses of Negative Energy (Rebuke Undead) evil when others (Inflict X wounds) are not": in one of the other threads:


When theorizing why evil acts (regardless of who they're being committed against) normally change a character's alignment to evil if done regularly:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9176444&postcount=112

I expanded it to cover the issue of undead and negative energy.

Why do all undead, even Neutral and Good aligned ones, detect as evil?
Why is "channelling negative energy" (Rebuke Undead) evil when several negative energy spells (Inflict X Wounds) aren't, and the Negative Energy Plane is not mildly or strongly Evil-aligned?
Why do all undead-creating spells have the [Evil] descriptor?
Why do some spells, which basically just manipulate negative energy (like Desecrate) have the [Evil] descriptor?

My answer is as follows- while some negative energy uses are not evil, and the plane is not evil itself, it is tied to evil- so spells that make a more fundemental use of it, open a conduit to the Force of Evil.

Hence, when Rebuke Undead is used, evil energy seeps from the Force of Evil (since, according to the PHB, Good and Evil are two of the forces that define the cosmos) and just slightly corrupts the user's mind.

In the same way, undead are Made Of Evil- so to speak- evil energy has to be drawn on to, with the help of negative energy, bring their bodies to life. And in the process, it corrupts the mind of the caster toward evil, just a little.

This is why all undead, even good-aligned ones, detect as evil.

Nonevil undead, may have a Good-aligned mind, and a Good-aligned soul, but their body is still Made Of Evil.

Spells like Desecrate, work in a similar way- using negative energy on this level opens up a channel for the Force of Evil.

Only the most "shallow" of negative energy spells, don't do this (the Inflict line) and thus have no effect on the caster.

In a similar way, committing evil acts on a big enough scale, can open a conduit to the negative energy plane and the Force of Evil, and cause the undead to spontaneously rise. This is "Atrocity Calls to Unlife" from Libris Mortis.

Morty
2010-08-23, 07:36 AM
W: Any Rogue, starting at 2nd level, can be undamaged in the center of an Epic-level Wizard's 40-ft spread or 120-ft cone.
E: Every Rogue actually has an infinity of Conjurer souls bound within them, allowing them to Abrupt Jaunt any distance away and then back to their spot.

I think that a Rogue being able to completely Evade a Fireball despite having no room to dodge - because he's in a broom closet, for instance - is much more logic defying. Not that I have an explanation for that, just throwing it out there.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-23, 08:17 AM
W: A spellcaster's spell component pouch contains the necessary costless material components for any spell, ever.

E: Spell component pouches are actually animated constructs with Summon Component as an at-will SLA.

P.S. Also explains why a seemingly regular, non-magical belt pouch costs 5gp.

This is actually handwaved as "eh, too much silly stuff we just kept for novelty. Give them a single item to keep track so they can keep on trucking"

Coidzor
2010-08-23, 08:17 AM
E: The player's handbook states that being a paladin is actually more of a 'calling' than just choosing it. I see leaving Paladin part way through the class sort of like leaving a mission halfway through. Sure you didn't get the gem, but the traps aren't going to reset, and the monsters aren't going to be raised from the dead. Once you left the mission and said you're not going to do it, the gods don't take what you did away, but they do stop feeding it to you, focusing their divine resources elsewhere, on another potent paladin. The reason you cannot go back is the same reason the cleric who sent you on the mission in the first place won't let you go again....the next guy finished it. The cleric isn't going to send you to pick up a gem, that isn't at the temple anymore.

That'd make sense... if Paladin was a transformative class...

Peregrine
2010-08-23, 08:48 AM
W: A spellcaster's spell component pouch contains the necessary costless material components for any spell, ever.

It's not that unreasonable if you consider it to hold a decent supply of the components for the spells the owner can cast. This only has noticeable consequences if you have casters who like looting the spell component pouches of enemies, and who does that?


P.S. Also explains why a seemingly regular, non-magical belt pouch costs 5gp.

I figure it's a rather specialised pouch with a compartmentalised layout that makes it easy to lay a hand on exactly the component you're after in a moment.

prufock
2010-08-23, 09:49 AM
Because its Rules as Written...not Rules as Not Written?

Your logic is broken. RAW does not include any clause stating that your gear is necessarily hidden with you. Hiding a tower shield that you are hiding behind is not supported by the RAW. That's an assumed rule that you apply. This is a fault of the reader, not the text.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-23, 09:58 AM
Your logic is broken. RAW does not include any clause stating that your gear is necessarily hidden with you.

By that logic, hiding doesn't work period, because there would appear to be a cloak and backpack floating in mid-air whenever you try to hide.

Peregrine
2010-08-23, 10:14 AM
By that logic, hiding doesn't work period, because there would appear to be a cloak and backpack floating in mid-air whenever you try to hide.

Not necessarily. If Prufock is right (and I think he is), RAW doesn't say your equipment does disappear with you... but nor does it say it doesn't disappear with you. Thus leaving it up to common sense/DM judgement. So your clothes? Go with you. The tower shield you're hiding behind? Doesn't.

Not that this is much use in a "pure RAW" discussion, but pure RAW is like absolute zero temperature...

prufock
2010-08-23, 10:27 AM
By that logic, hiding doesn't work period, because there would appear to be a cloak and backpack floating in mid-air whenever you try to hide.

No, because you are still making an assumption, only the other way around. The hide description doesn't address whether all things you're carrying are hidden with you. That means determination of such is up to the players and DM. Generally, it's agreed that your clothes and equipment ARE hidden with you, however this is not a given, and not in the RAW.

As another example, you may be a halfling carrying a glaive. Though the halfling could hide in a 3'x3' box, this doesn't mean your glaive would as well, and like the tower shield trick, isn't covered in the RAW hide description. Assuming it would because it's part of your equipment is not a fault of the RAW, it's a fault of the reader.

EDIT: In other words, what Peregrine said.

flabort
2010-08-23, 10:29 AM
....Like absolute zero temperature?....
Boring?

Morithias
2010-08-23, 11:34 AM
That'd make sense... if Paladin was a transformative class...

I say it still makes sense, it's just filled under "Roleplaying" and "fluff" rather than what I like to call "using class abilities to define yourself".

To put it bluntly, the class doesn't define the person. Monk? Lawful. You assume "follows the rules, noble warriors of the monastery" pretty much just a Bruce Lee clone.

Until you read that part in heroes of horror about the monk assassin. Using quivering palm to kill people off weeks after contact to hide her moves.

Druids? Nature loving people right? In turn with the plants and stuff? Basically a spellcasting hippee, as many stereotype?

Oh wait, heroes covers that too....with a druid angry at people "destroying nature for cities" sending animals in to slaughter civilians.

What I posted there was fluff, behind the scenes roleplaying stuff. Stuff not dependent on the mechanics.

In my opinion it still makes sense.

Enixon
2010-08-23, 02:22 PM
W: You can hide behind a tower shield, while hiding the shield it's self.
E: You're Solid Snake, and this is MGS. Or. The resulting paradox creates a miniture sigularaty that bends the fabric of space-time around you so that you appear nearly invisible.

Naw, what happens is that you cause and infinite paradox, you hide as you said but then now that the shield is hidden it can't hide you anymore so you reappear which naturally causes the shield to reappear hiding you again thus causing the process to begin anew the result is not quite invisibility but rather something similar to the Blink spell save that you remain on the material plane.

Yes that make perfect sense.:smallbiggrin:

......just don't do something silly like think about it.....

Morithias
2010-08-23, 02:56 PM
Naw, what happens is that you cause and infinite paradox, you hide as you said but then now that the shield is hidden it can't hide you anymore so you reappear which naturally causes the shield to reappear hiding you again thus causing the process to begin anew the result is not quite invisibility but rather something similar to the Blink spell save that you remain on the material plane.

Yes that make perfect sense.:smallbiggrin:

......just don't do something silly like think about it.....

You stand the shield in the ground. Furthermore you need a shadow to hide right? And you can't hide in your own shadow.

Since the only shadow near the shield is made by the shield.....well....you can hide in the shield's shadow, the shield cannot. However the fact that now the opponent can't see you, don't stop them from having common sense and know that you're there.

olelia
2010-08-23, 09:40 PM
While it would make sense if you did plant your shield in the ground...you can still move with it quite freely as long as you don't attack you still maintain total cover.

Coidzor
2010-08-24, 12:05 AM
I say it still makes sense, it's just filled under "Roleplaying" and "fluff" rather than what I like to call "using class abilities to define yourself".

To put it bluntly, the class doesn't define the person. Monk? Lawful. You assume "follows the rules, noble warriors of the monastery" pretty much just a Bruce Lee clone.

Until you read that part in heroes of horror about the monk assassin. Using quivering palm to kill people off weeks after contact to hide her moves.

Druids? Nature loving people right? In turn with the plants and stuff? Basically a spellcasting hippee, as many stereotype?

Oh wait, heroes covers that too....with a druid angry at people "destroying nature for cities" sending animals in to slaughter civilians.

What I posted there was fluff, behind the scenes roleplaying stuff. Stuff not dependent on the mechanics.

In my opinion it still makes sense.

Your arguments here invalidate the other argument by saying there's multiple fluff interpretations/expressions of the class.

2xMachina
2010-08-24, 12:54 AM
You stand the shield in the ground. Furthermore you need a shadow to hide right? And you can't hide in your own shadow.

Since the only shadow near the shield is made by the shield.....well....you can hide in the shield's shadow, the shield cannot. However the fact that now the opponent can't see you, don't stop them from having common sense and know that you're there.

The shield hides in your shadow!

Cespenar
2010-08-24, 01:25 AM
That's easy too. The shield, without its owner, looks like a random discarded object, which makes people ignore it, effectively hiding it in plain sight.

DaragosKitsune
2010-08-24, 02:23 AM
That's easy too. The shield, without its owner, looks like a random discarded object, which makes people ignore it, effectively hiding it in plain sight.

Two problems with that, best as I can tell:

1. What random underpaid mook is really going to ignore a big shield sticking out of the ground?
2. Since when did an oversized shield look like a random discarded object?

2xMachina
2010-08-24, 02:31 AM
Two problems with that, best as I can tell:

1. What random underpaid mook is really going to ignore a big shield sticking out of the ground?
2. Since when did an oversized shield look like a random discarded object?

2. It looks like a discarded tower shield. That some left stuck into the ground.

Cespenar
2010-08-24, 02:44 AM
Two problems with that, best as I can tell:

1. What random underpaid mook is really going to ignore a big shield sticking out of the ground?
2. Since when did an oversized shield look like a random discarded object?

1. When random underpaid mooks usually go out of their ways to investigate lone objects, you know what happens? They die. Horribly. It's only natural that they decide from a certain point on that they will do only what their job entails and not a bit more.

2. In a world of +5 Vorpal Greatswords, the only reaction an oversized shield would draw is "Geez, what a sucky build." :smalltongue:

Peregrine
2010-09-07, 08:13 PM
W: Druids are prohibited from wearing metal armour. Okay, fine, they're all-natural, they don't like metal. But it's specifically only metal armour. Metal weapons are fine; heck, they're all proficient with daggers, sickles, and even scimitars. Metal rings and necklaces are also fine.

E: After centuries of disagreement and disputation, periodically almost spilling over into a holy war, druids of various traditions finally met together in conclave a generation ago, to discuss the matter of druids using metal. In communion with the gods of nature, the important questions were finally settled.

The ancient prohibition on not wearing "garment of metal" was upheld; this prohibits metal armours and also cloth-of-gold. (Much argument went into the question of studded leather, but it was held to be prohibited because the metal forms the functional part of the armour.)

Metal weapons were permitted; the sickle and dagger were never really in doubt as all but the most conservative druidic traditions used them in sacred ceremonies. Metal-pointed spears and darts, and metal-shod quarterstaves, were also expressly permitted, if discouraged. The horse-riding druids of the plains lobbied hard and won the right to keep wielding their sabres; in fact they won over many other druids, to the point where the sabre (scimitar) is now taught to initiates of other traditions too.

Unfortunately, metal adornments were touched on only briefly; metal rings and jewellery, and even metal fasteners on garments, were never given a consensus ruling by the conclave. Most continue wearing them without a problem, but they are still called heretics by traditionalist druids. (Of course, most of those same traditionalist druids continue to refuse to wear or wield any metal at all, but they can no longer call their fellow druids heretics for it.)

Morph Bark
2010-09-08, 06:59 AM
Half-Elf is a misnomer, it refers to any individual with some (1/4? 1/8?) elven ancestry.

At some point it would have to end though, otherwise any human with even a 1/128th elven ancestry would still be half-elf in that sense. Same for a dwarf/orc/goblin/gnome/halfling with that much elven ancestry (even though half-elves specifically refer to those that are half elf, half human). Same even for elves.

Conclusion? Half-elves will take over the world unless totally eradicated. :smalleek:


Wow, I was totally in the middle of writing a prestige class for exactly this when you said that. Hah, strange coincidences.

Oohh, I am definitely going to check that out then once you get it up. My favourite NPC yet was an graftmaster wizard/druid turned undead.


Not that this is much use in a "pure RAW" discussion, but pure RAW is like absolute zero temperature...

So... it can never be reached by human-induced means?

Snake-Aes
2010-09-08, 07:08 AM
At some point it would have to end though, otherwise any human with even a 1/128th elven ancestry would still be half-elf in that sense. Same for a dwarf/orc/goblin/gnome/halfling with that much elven ancestry (even though half-elves specifically refer to those that are half elf, half human). Same even for elves.

Conclusion? Half-elves will take over the world unless totally eradicated. :smalleek:
Wait, this smells like a story (http://www.errantstory.com/)...

Peregrine
2010-09-08, 08:46 AM
So... it can never be reached by human-induced means?

That's pretty much what I was getting at, yeah. As soon as you involve humans; as soon as you want to actually do something with the rules; as soon as you try running a game of D&D, you're no longer dealing with pure RAW.