Will Eugene ascend even after the Oath is fulfilled? [Archive]

Cybertoy00

2010-08-21, 05:22 PM

I'm asking because lately he's been showing less than lawful behavior. First, there was his hijacking the angel so he could talk to Shojo. That's something another angel didn't let him forget when she began to review Roy in the afterlife. Also, then there's his burning the file about Vaarsuvius' deal with the fiends. That's something the angel TOLD him to tell Roy about, and he just blew it off, even congratulating V for the effort. It's becoming clearer and clearer that he only cares about getting Xykon destroyed so he can ascend, and doesn't care about who gets hurt in doing so. That doesn't sound very good or lawful.
That's my opinion, anyway. What does anyone else think about it?

Kish

2010-08-21, 05:25 PM

If it's possible to be disqualified from an afterlife based on things you do after dying, Eugene's future looks bleak indeed.

If.

Goosefarble

2010-08-21, 07:04 PM

That's assuming the oath is fulfilled!

Starscream

2010-08-21, 07:29 PM

Dunno. On the one hand, he's a jerk. On the other hand, Miko was a jerk, and apparently she still counted as Lawful Good up until the point she committed cold blooded murder.

As for his lawfulness, he got into trouble because he didn't do everything in his power to fulfill the oath. Maybe he could argue that doing things like hijacking the ride to Azure City was him now doing everything in his power to fulfill it. Sure, he's only doing it for selfish reasons, but he's actually working harder to make Xykon dead(er) than he has in decades.

Don't know how that will fly at his interview.

Setra

2010-08-21, 07:30 PM

Dunno. On the one hand, he's a jerk. On the other hand, Miko was a jerk, and apparently she still counted as Lawful Good up until the point she committed cold blooded murder.
Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice. :smalltongue:

Gandariel

2010-08-21, 08:13 PM

Goosefeather

2010-08-21, 09:59 PM

i mean, if you do something bad, but you're convinced that you're doin' the right thing, i don't think it qualifies as evil...

Except that morality, in D&D terms, is not relative, but objective.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-21, 10:14 PM

Soon's "We will we usher you to your destination as well." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) makes me think Miko was "Lawful with Good tendencies" at her time of death. Unless he meant that Paladins or the Sapphire Guard gets some sort of special spot in Celestia or something. (Not impossible, given that the Dark One has his own place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).)

Of course there are people who would say she went to the Abyss.

Coidzor

2010-08-21, 10:19 PM

Well, I don't really see them forcing him to stay on the cloud for eternity even after Xykon's been destroyed as punishment for anything he's done since dying.

JoeSkull

2010-08-21, 10:23 PM

Which makes me think of...
At the time of her death, what was Miko's alignment?
in my opinion still Lawful Good.
i mean, if you do something bad, but you're convinced that you're doin' the right thing, i don't think it qualifies as evil...
i mean, miko did all what she did to defend the Law and the Good.
then, she was a short-sighted crazy illogical bitch who would rather keep her ridiculous theories instead of listening to others.....

but she was trying to defend the Good.
hence, i think she was still LG

I think alignment is more of a combo of Intent and act, a good intent and a bad act equals roughly neutral.

And when did it ever say that he is Lawful?? I dont have the orgins or any of the books but I dont recall this being stated(or even really implied) in the comic.

Detrinex

2010-08-21, 10:28 PM

Yes. The lawyer deva directly told Eugene Greenhilt that he'd be stuck wandering the intermediary cloud until his descendants fulfill the blood oath.
---
NOTE ABOUT CRAZY MIKO: Presumably, Miko was trying to follow her duty, but she just went extremist after she learned an incomplete version of what's going on. However, post-old guy murder, not only did Miko lose her divine paladin powers, Roy was able to use the green slashy effect with his starmetal sword, implying that Miko has taken at least a temporary turn towards evil. Later on, when she screws up Soon's plan to slay Xykon and Redcloak , she only destroyed the gate because she was attempting to follow her duty (even if it meant continuing the plot another few hundred strips. But hey, this plot is based on character mess-ups, so it's all fine and good. :smallsmile:

slayerx

2010-08-21, 10:43 PM

If it's possible to be disqualified from an afterlife based on things you do after dying, Eugene's future looks bleak indeed.

If.
Well, i'm not sure if i'd say bleak... i mean, he's not exactly getting sent to the underworld... Though he would most certainly loose his spot LG afterlife, some of the other afterlives might not be so bad

B. Dandelion

2010-08-21, 11:01 PM

Good question. Actually, if I think about it, if the strip ends with the Blood Oath fulfilled and Eugene waltzes in to Celestia with no further questions asked, it would be a full-fledged Karma Houdini (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KarmaHoudini). These are serious infractions we're talking about, there SHOULD rightly be repercussions. The archon's comments in 495 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) are somewhat disheartening though.

Kish

2010-08-21, 11:43 PM

And when did it ever say that he is Lawful??
Aside from the fact that he's trying to get into the Lawful Good afterlife?

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-21, 11:54 PM

Getting sent to the Outlands would be both a Karma-riffic ending and kinda happy--if Julia continues her way of life, Eugene would at least get to spend eternity with the child that followed in his path.

Crisis21

2010-08-21, 11:54 PM

factotum

2010-08-22, 01:18 AM

Well, I don't really see them forcing him to stay on the cloud for eternity even after Xykon's been destroyed as punishment for anything he's done since dying.

I think the OP is really asking "What afterlife will Eugene end up in?" rather than "Will he ever get off the cloud?". It's notable that Roy definitely believes his father will still end up on the mountain, no matter his post-mortem deeds--he wouldn't have got him to make the promise to never meet up with his family once he got there otherwise. Of course, that was before Eugene deliberately destroyed the news about V's deal with the IFCC rather than passing it on...

JoseB

2010-08-22, 05:31 AM

(Not impossible, given that the Dark One has his own place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).)

Well, from the description in comic #704 of the afterlife where the Dark One stands, it looks to me as if it were ACHERON (the lawful neutral/lawful evil outer plane).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons

Relevant aspect:

"Acheron is an eternal battlefield of endless conflict. It is a plane of law where conformity takes precedence over any thoughts of good. Unending battles take place across the entire plane between huge armies, with no chance of victory or cease-fire. Each layer of plane consists of a huge numbers of iron cubes of varying size, from continent-sized to small islands; not all of these are actually cube-shaped, but they are generally called cubes nonetheless. The cubes float in an air-filled, infinite space, occasionally colliding with each other.

Every cube face is habitable, with gravity always being directed towards the cube's center; furthermore, the cubes are filled with caverns and tunnels.

The light on Acheron varies between that similar to bright moonlight to that of a dark and cloudy day. The sound of battle resonates around the plane and can always be heard in the distance."

It looks as if Jirix arrived to one face of one of the cubes, where an army of dead goblinoids was assembled, ready for battle.

Just my 2 eurocent!

Capt Spanner

2010-08-22, 06:22 AM

If it's possible to be disqualified from an afterlife based on things you do after dying, Eugene's future looks bleak indeed.

If.

The epilogue from SoD would suggest that you can be disqualified from an afterlife based on things you do after dying.

Deva: The language really isn't helping your case.

Ancalagon

2010-08-22, 06:32 AM

The epilogue from SoD would suggest that you can be disqualified from an afterlife based on things you do after dying.

Deva: The language really isn't helping your case.

This seems like Eugene's case was not finally decided then - and based on that, it seems unlikely it is now. So IF the final verdict was not yet issues he would still be in his evaluation process. This means he can forget the LG afterlife by now.

It would be a bit different if he was already evaluated. Would the new stuff be taken into account? Given we deal with people who "do it by the book" here who probably also have rules for cases where new stuff happens after the final evaluation I find it unlikely binding a being of pure good and rigging a trial after that has no effect. And that's just the beginning of unlawful acts are acts that are clearly against the celestial wil (he burned the report some celestial gave him to pass to roy).

King of Nowhere

2010-08-22, 07:06 AM

Which makes me think of...
At the time of her death, what was Miko's alignment?
in my opinion still Lawful Good.
i mean, if you do something bad, but you're convinced that you're doin' the right thing, i don't think it qualifies as evil...
i mean, miko did all what she did to defend the Law and the Good.
then, she was a short-sighted crazy illogical bitch who would rather keep her ridiculous theories instead of listening to others.....

but she was trying to defend the Good.
hence, i think she was still LG
I think she can make a strong argument by pleading insanity.

Back on Eugene, he became a much worse man after his troubles with the oath. In life, he was a jerk and an awful father, but still a good jerk who tried to give his children the best he could.
After death, he stopped caring. He's like a person who committed a minor crime, is sentenced to jail and becomes a full criminal after that.
I don't think he's lawful good anymore, but I also think it would be unfair to punish him for personality changes that are mostly results of his previous punishment.

malloyd

2010-08-22, 07:30 AM

I can't see how being dead changes what counts. In fact, given that people in the afterlife seem to have free will, there must be a mechanism through which you can get kicked out after you have been admitted. This is virtually required for faiths where an evil afterlife is intended as a reforming punishment rather than a disproportionate torture too. We know people change even in the LG afterlife, since they eventually decide to climb higher up the mountain seeking a higher level of goodness, so it's presumably possible to change to decide you were wrong about good in the first place.

B. Dandelion

2010-08-22, 07:50 AM

After death, he stopped caring. He's like a person who committed a minor crime, is sentenced to jail and becomes a full criminal after that.

Generally that happens to prisoners that are brutalized within an uncaring system. Eugene's situation doesn't even come close. He wasn't mistreated, and his punishment wasn't disproportionate to the offense. He earned it -- and on some level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) even he seems to understand that.

I don't think he's lawful good anymore, but I also think it would be unfair to punish him for personality changes that are mostly results of his previous punishment.

How's that not just giving him a pass for having "suffered"? Many, many villains endured hardships that affected their outlook (and most of them were a lot more unpleasant than forced to wait around on a cloud), but it's not a "get into heaven free card" for them.

SensFan

2010-08-22, 08:13 AM

If I forgot something in either the main comic or one of the prequels, I apologize, but I've been wondering something on this topic for a while. As far as I remember, we've never seen his Oath. Isn't it distinctly possible that Roy neutralizes the threat Xykon presents without fulfilling the Oath?

For instance, I think we're past the point where Roy - or anyone for that matter - could technically kill Xykon, to name but one case.

Kish

2010-08-22, 08:48 AM

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-08-22, 08:51 AM

Which makes me think of...
At the time of her death, what was Miko's alignment?
in my opinion still Lawful Good.
i mean, if you do something bad, but you're convinced that you're doin' the right thing, i don't think it qualifies as evil...
So does that make Redcloak, who is convinced that The Plan is the right thing, Good?

Well, i'm not sure if i'd say bleak... i mean, he's not exactly getting sent to the underworld... Though he would most certainly loose his spot LG afterlife, some of the other afterlives might not be so bad
Depends on which one. Something like the Beastlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beastlands) is a good afterlife, but definitely not right for Eugene.

Sir_Elderberry

2010-08-22, 08:56 AM

It's SoD, because I haven't read OotPCs.

Renegade Paladin

2010-08-22, 09:01 AM

However, post-old guy murder, not only did Miko lose her divine paladin powers, Roy was able to use the green slashy effect with his starmetal sword, implying that Miko has taken at least a temporary turn towards evil.
...

Where does it say that the starmetal sword is triggered by evil? :smallconfused:

Kish

2010-08-22, 09:03 AM

...

Where does it say that the starmetal sword is triggered by evil? :smallconfused:
Nowhere. It's related to the "Rich totally said Vaarsuvius is male, it's not evil to kill goblins and dragons, and the MitD is in the first Monster Manual" Telephone Game effect, but for the comic, not for the forum.

Swordpriest

2010-08-22, 09:28 AM

Well, the deva certainly seems to state that he will ascend after the Oath is fulfilled. In the absence of further evidence, I'd say that a clear-cut statement from a "being of pure law and good" is conclusive corroboration that he will ascend after the oath is fulfilled.

137beth

2010-08-22, 09:35 AM

Impersonating a being of pure law and good doesn't seem very...lawful. In fact, ignoring that his son's ally was working with fiends isn't all that good either. He seems closest to chaotic neutral, that's where I'm guessing he'll end up.

Dr.Epic

2010-08-22, 12:14 PM

I think they would have kicked him out by now and sent him to where ever he does belong.

Detrinex

2010-08-22, 01:21 PM

...

Where does it say that the starmetal sword is triggered by evil? :smallconfused:

When Roy gets his sword, actually. The blacksmith says so herself.

hamishspence

2010-08-22, 01:33 PM

Actually, it says "particularly harmful to the undead":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

Dr.Epic

2010-08-22, 01:52 PM

Actually, it says "particularly harmful to the undead":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

It's also harmful to some evil outsiders as seen by the fight between Roy and Sabine.

Kish

2010-08-22, 01:58 PM

When Roy gets his sword, actually. The blacksmith says so herself.
Conspicuously absent in the strip hamishspence linked, or anywhere else in the comic.

hamishspence

2010-08-22, 02:47 PM

It's also harmful to some evil outsiders as seen by the fight between Roy and Sabine.

Possibly:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html

but the blacksmith said "particularly harmful to undead" so it's possibly that the energy will harm anything, but undead most.

Or some other combination. We can't be sure either way. I think it flared up for Miko as well.

EDIT: It did:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-22, 02:54 PM

"...deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead."
So I'd imagine the energy can hurt just about anything (except maybe Constructs or Elementals), evil or not.

Well, from the description in comic #704 of the afterlife where the Dark One stands, it looks to me as if it were ACHERON (the lawful neutral/lawful evil outer plane).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons

Relevant aspect:

That makes sense. Good catch. But still, it might mean that Miko was LG at death, but paladins or just the Sapphire Guard have a special place in Celestia (like how the Dark One seems to have his own spot in Acheron) and Miko wasn't allowed, but I still lean toward Arcadia for her.

DeltaEmil

2010-08-22, 04:06 PM

It's for the angelic servants of the gods to judge Miko and decide if she is worthy of entering the sacred mountain.

factotum

2010-08-22, 04:14 PM

It's for the angelic servants of the gods to judge Miko and decide if she is worthy of entering the sacred mountain.

You know one we can ask? Because that'll be the only way this debate will ever end. :smallsmile:

DeltaEmil

2010-08-22, 04:22 PM

Sure. They're all at the gates of the sacred mountain. ;)

SPoD

2010-08-22, 04:25 PM

If it's possible to be disqualified from an afterlife based on things you do after dying, Eugene's future looks bleak indeed.

If.

I agree with this. With an added comment of, "And I expect that 'if' to prove true, right at the moment that Eugene is most convinced that his wait is over."

SensFan

2010-08-22, 06:03 PM

Can someone with access to SoD (my copy is currently 5 hours away, in North Bay) post in spoilers the wording of the Oath?

Much appreciated.

Gandariel

2010-08-22, 06:18 PM

Except that morality, in D&D terms, is not relative, but objective.

i think this closes the discussion....
if miko killing Shojo directly made her alignment shift to evil, then she's evil, period.

but i don't know... Roy's judgment before accessing the paradise wasn't actually... objective...

DeltaEmil

2010-08-22, 06:31 PM

hamishspence

2010-08-23, 02:44 AM

Roy's not that masterful a fast-talker. And it didn't seem to me that the deva was "tricked".

Souhiro

2010-08-23, 06:38 AM

Except that morality, in D&D terms, is not relative, but objective.

That isn't so. in this world, morality is about your facts AND motivations. Roy choose to drop Elan when he was kidnapped in the forest. That wasn't Lawful (The Sacred Order of the Stick were legally signed party, with a contract) nor was Good. But then roy had his doubts, and he decided to come back to rescue him. So he is Lawful Good after all. with all his human doubts, with all his human failures, because he is human. But he keeps trying, and doing it hard.

The case of Miko: She died defending not only her country, but the very creation. It's true that both of them would be saved by Soon if she would have fleed from Azure, but although she didn't suceed, she did her ultimate sacrifice.

Eugene, in other hand, is just interested in having the blood oath fulfilled. I think when Xykon would be ultimately destroyed, he will be judged. And neglegcting his son, cursing his entire progeny to a stupid vengeance, and there is Eric; Roy's baby brother. I'm sure that he isn't just an crowning moment of hearthwarming; but holds a dooming moment of retribution onto Eugene.

Eugene had his share, even while living. He is just waiting for judgment!

My grammar is horrible. I know it!

hamishspence

2010-08-23, 06:42 AM

That's not the difference between relative morality and objective morality.

Relative morality, is when, for example, torture or human sacrifice, are considered evil when committed by people who come from a culture that does not practice them normally, but not evil when they are standard for a culture.

Like, for example, torture being evil for elves to commit, but not evil for orcs to commit.

Which doesn't work in D&D.

Taking motivations and context into account, can be done even in an objective morality system. But, at least in some cases, no amount of Good motivation, will make an "always evil" act into a Neutral one.

True, not all forms of moral relativism incorporate cultural relativism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

but in the context of D&D, the two are somewhat linked. BoVD mentions relativism (moral and cultural) as very much a variant, compared to objective morality, which is the standard.

Scarlet Knight

2010-08-23, 07:54 AM

Of course double crossing a deva is never a good policy.

Crisis21

2010-08-23, 12:49 PM

Sure. There were paragraphs and guidelines written in a giant book that is on fire surrounded by singing cherubs, and the devas in charge have a computer-graph to show how many kilo-nazis were averted by Roy's action Of course, if you are a really masterful fast-talker like Roy, tricking a deva into making killing an evil psychopath in his sleep sound inacceptable and wrong while ignoring the same treatment for goblins, then the gates of heaven stand open to you. :smallcool:

OK, here's the issue. While both Belkar and the Goblins are evil aligned, the situations you're talking about are completely different.

The Goblins were openly hostile, trying to kill the Order prior to being put to sleep and would have tried to kill them after waking up, not to mention that Roy believed them to be asleep as a result of Vaarsuvius's spell (even though V didn't actually cast anything) which was made as part of combat in the first place.

Belkar, while still openly hostile, was typically only hostile to the Order's enemies. Roy's mention of killing Belkar in his sleep is not a scenario where Belkar was put to sleep as a result of a combat action, but where he would have already been asleep, making the action undeniably cold-blooded murder.

Remember that 'Wartime' (Goblin scenario) and 'Peacetime' (Belkar scenario) have differing moral standards. This is the whole basis for the argument between Haley and Celia in Book 4 in fact.

Kish

2010-08-23, 12:56 PM

The Goblins were openly hostile, trying to kill the Order prior to being put to sleep

You mean, when they stood around listening to Vaarsuvius lecture them?

and would have tried to kill them after waking up, not to mention that Roy believed them to be asleep as a result of Vaarsuvius's spell (even though V didn't actually cast anything) which was made as part of combat in the first place.

The goblins were just standing there. If Vaarsuvius "casting his/her spell" at them was part of combat, then combat started when Vaarsuvius walked into the room and started it. Roy could certainly begin a combat with Belkar that way.

Belkar, while still openly hostile, was typically only hostile to the Order's enemies.

"But we're not at war with the gnome!"

I would add: With first-level barbarians in Belkar's supposed-to-be-nonlethal test to become a barbarian, with goblins trying to surrender, or with Elan. Belkar's supposed restraint has never held water.

Roy's mention of killing Belkar in his sleep is not a scenario where Belkar was put to sleep as a result of a combat action, but where he would have already been asleep, making the action undeniably cold-blooded murder.
And Roy managed to fast-talk the deva and, thus, avoid the obvious answer of, "No, of course not. There's no need for him to be asleep. You can give him as much warning as you feel necessary."

Crisis21

2010-08-23, 01:20 PM

1) Yes, combat did begin when Vaarsuvius walked into the room, but V won initiative. Remember that this world is going by gaming rules, so the Goblins cannot take action until Vaarsuvius has finished with his/hers.

2) There is a huge difference between walking into a room and putting a hostile force to sleep and then killing them and walking into a room where a maybe-some-day-hostile current ally is already sleeping and killing them.

3) I said 'typically'. Belkar has been hostile to members of the Order itself, or have you forgotten when he wanted to kill Elan for XP?

4) 'Fast-talking' something like a Deva only works if your argument makes sense, which Roy's did. Roy is not so much fast-talking the Deva as he is sticking to his decisions and principles.

5) Second, the Deva had to back down or openly condone murder which goes against her role as a representative of the upper planes and a being of Law and Good. Also, remember that Roy has given Belkar warning before, back when Belkar tried to kill Elan in fact.

LightsOnNo1Home

2010-08-27, 02:24 PM

Yeah, totally agree with Crisis21 on this one, and would just add that, taking the whole of the story into consideration, can anyone honestly say that those goblins posed no threat to the Order at that point?

Or that if they had not been dealt with there and then, then the order would not have been risking getting caught in a crossfire had they moved on?

Anyway, the reason for the post is to refer to strip 495, panel 3, where Roy says that his dad can rot in hell for all he cares, and the Archon replies "I think we are technically past the point where that would be a realistic possibility".

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the archon qualify as a being of "pure law and good", albeit a very low ranking one? This, to me, would strongly imply that post death actions can't have an impact on your final resting place. Or at least not enough of one to send you from the LG afterlife to an evil one.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-27, 04:48 PM

Or at least not enough of one to send you from the LG afterlife to an evil one.
The way I see it, you can, but you would have to be really stupid and/or go really out of your way to go from just good enough to enter Celestia to being worthy of Baator. Not to mention, Roy's Archon may not know what kind of person Eugene is, he might figure "If the only thing holding him back from heaven is a Blood Oath, how could he possibly manage to go to hell?"

SoC175

2010-08-27, 05:08 PM

"...deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead."
So I'd imagine the energy can hurt just about anything (except maybe Constructs or Elementals), evil or not. Well, the smith just said that it would flicker with this energy from time to time, so it's entirely possible that the sword simply randomly flickered during this fights without the energy having any special effect whatsoever on a non undead foe, just like it might not flicker once during a whole battle against undead.

LightsOnNo1Home

2010-08-27, 05:20 PM

Roy's Archon is fairly snarky at times ("......so I don't strangle smartass newbies").

I had interpreted his comment in 495 as a sarcastic aside, and that he was sounding unsure for effect.

But yeah you could be right. Only person who knows for sure would be The Giant, and I'm damn sure he won't comment.

IF its possible to "fall" (for want of a better word) after death, then I think Eugene has had his chips. He hasn't been LG for a good while.

A thought just occured as I was writing this though. The Deva knows about his impersonation job at the trial, but...... do they know about him burning the file on Darth V? Do you still get watched after you die? There was a witness to the former (the guy he tied up, and took the place of) there was no witness to the latter.

If the Deva's knew about that, they would know that the file was not going to be delivered and perhaps have made other arrangements.

This is just a random thought, but if it plays out, he could potentially get away with more than he would be expected to.

Crisis21

2010-08-27, 05:25 PM

The way I see it, you can, but you would have to be really stupid and/or go really out of your way to go from just good enough to enter Celestia to being worthy of Baator. Not to mention, Roy's Archon may not know what kind of person Eugene is, he might figure "If the only thing holding him back from heaven is a Blood Oath, how could he possibly manage to go to hell?"
I don't think Eugene is going to get sent to either an Evil afterlife or a Chaotic one. However, getting sent to a Neutral afterlife as a result of his post-mortem actions is a distinct possibility in my opinion.

Roy's Archon is fairly snarky at times ("......so I don't strangle smartass newbies").

I had interpreted his comment in 495 as a sarcastic aside, and that he was sounding unsure for effect.
Roy's Archon is alot like Roy in several ways. Probably why he was assigned to Roy.

A thought just occured as I was writing this though. The Deva knows about his impersonation job at the trial, but...... do they know about him burning the file on Darth V? Do you still get watched after you die? There was a witness to the former (the guy he tied up, and took the place of) there was no witness to the latter.

If the Deva's knew about that, they would know that the file was not going to be delivered and perhaps have made other arrangements.

This is just a random thought, but if it plays out, he could potentially get away with more than he would be expected to.
It seems that they have pretty comprehensive files on what goes on in the mortal plane. Even if they don't watch Eugene 24/7 they will still end up aware that Eugene did not deliver the file as asked when it turns out that Roy doesn't have knowledge of it. They may not have seen him burning the file, but failure to deliver the information as promised is going to be a lot tougher to hide.

The way I see things, Eugene is playing a very dangerous game, partly because he sees himself as beyond repercussions for his actions due to already being dead.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-27, 05:35 PM

Well, the smith just said that it would flicker with this energy from time to time, so it's entirely possible that the sword simply randomly flickered during this fights without the energy having any special effect whatsoever on a non undead foe, just like it might not flicker once during a whole battle against undead.
But she said particularly harmful to the undead. That means the energy should hurt everything, just undead moreso. I fail to see what the green energy only appearing randomly has to do with anything. :smallconfused:

I don't think Eugene is going to get sent to either an Evil afterlife or a Chaotic one. However, getting sent to a Neutral afterlife as a result of his post-mortem actions is a distinct possibility in my opinion.
Yep, I'm betting on the Outlands (True Neutral afterlife), so at least he can maybe spend eternity with Julia.

derfenrirwolv

2010-08-27, 06:51 PM

The smith who reforged it said that it would exibit the properties when facing UNDEAD , not evil. However in comic it seems to activate when roy is really really pissed.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-27, 07:04 PM

The smith who reforged it said that it would exibit the properties when facing UNDEAD.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

At no point do I see her say that. It will sometimes glow the deadly green energy, and the deadly green energy will be particularly harmful to the undead. So it was luck/drama that caused the sword to glow against Sabine and Miko, and it did deal extra damage to them, but it was not as effective to them as it was to the zombified silver dragon or Xykon.

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-28, 08:35 AM

Can someone with access to SoD (my copy is currently 5 hours away, in North Bay) post in spoilers the wording of the Oath?

Much appreciated.
"I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the sorcerer."

Prowl

2010-08-28, 08:59 AM

I'm of the opinion that Eugene's final destination is the Neutral Good afterlife... he seems to have soured quite a bit on Law as a result of his treatment trying to get into the LG afterlife.

But he is essentially Good, if obnoxious - even through his bad attitude, he is always still working to help and cheer on the "good guys", even to the point where he is willing to tell Law to go take a flying leap (multiple times).

I wouldn't go as far to say "Chaotic", since to me that requires quite a bit of whimsical, arbitrary behavior, and that isn't at all in line with what we know of him.

Noble Savant

2010-08-28, 09:10 AM

Well, judging by what Roy's Archon says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html), it seems that he can't actually go to another afterlife. So yeah.

LightsOnNo1Home

2010-08-28, 10:56 AM

Well, judging by what Roy's Archon says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html), it seems that he can't actually go to another afterlife. So yeah.

That's what I said, yeah.

The question is: how reliable is Roy's Archon's opinion. I lean towards it being reliable, but that is just opinion. We can't really be sure.

Ancalagon

2010-08-28, 11:56 AM

Well, judging by what Roy's Archon says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html), it seems that he can't actually go to another afterlife. So yeah.

Well, the Archon does not *think* Eugene could go all the way to evil in the position he is at right now.

But we do not know:
* If it is not "realistic" or "impossible".
* If it applies only to evil, but maybe not to neutral (given the things Eugene can still do)
* If the Archon is simply wrong. It's not really his area of expertise.
* What else Eugene might be doing until "things are over".

In fact, I find it hard to believe some of the stuff Eugene did would NOT have any sort of repercussion. Hijacking the Summoning or Burning the Letter surely (throw in his motives and mindsets about that) or how he manipulates and outright uses Roy all the time are not good. And the celestials already proofed it's not about the letter of the law but also about the principle behind it (twisting the rule so it fits in regard of Roy's "attempt to redeem Belkar" or the entire argument of the Deva what "Lawful Good" is about and why Roy can "get in")... I really think Eugene *should* be in for a nasty surprise.

Crisis21

2010-08-28, 11:58 AM

Well, judging by what Roy's Archon says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html), it seems that he can't actually go to another afterlife. So yeah.

No, Roy's Archon says that he can't go to 'the lower planes'. While this may also include not going to another afterlife, neither does it completely rule out any of the non-Evil afterlives. Also consider that Roy's Archon may not be totally aware of what Eugene has been getting up to.

Eugene may not be judged too harshly based on his impersonation of an Archon since the trial itself was a farce and he could make the claim that it was a necessary part of fulfilling the blood oath despite the whole thing putting his own son's life at disproportionate risk, but his burning of V's file does not have that kind of defense attached to it.

lord_khaine

2010-08-28, 04:05 PM

Eugene may not be judged too harshly based on his impersonation of an Archon since the trial itself was a farce and he could make the claim that it was a necessary part of fulfilling the blood oath despite the whole thing putting his own son's life at disproportionate risk, but his burning of V's file does not have that kind of defense attached to it.

But he could have claimed that it would have split the party apart when it needet stand united.

In my case there is no doubt, Eugene will enter the LG afterlife, he might be a bit of a jerk, but noone said good=nice.

hamishspence

2010-08-28, 04:07 PM

Roy only got in because he tried to be Lawful as often as possible, even if he failed.

Eugene, since his death, has been acting pretty Chaotic.

lord_khaine

2010-08-28, 04:13 PM

I dont think so, he seems pretty focused on his mission to me.

hamishspence

2010-08-28, 04:16 PM

Scarlet Knight

2010-08-28, 04:30 PM

In my case there is no doubt, Eugene will enter the LG afterlife, he might be a bit of a jerk, but noone said good=nice.

I don't know...for once I'd like to hear Eugene say something like: " I lost one child when Eric died; I'd hate have more die!" He seems to view Roy and Julia as tools to use rather than as his children. He doesn't want them to die because they can't serve his purpose rather than for their own sake.

Crisis21

2010-08-28, 05:02 PM

Chaos isn't "not being focussed" it can simply be "Does not play by rules"

Roy's various methods are described by the deva as "veering toward Chaos"- even though he's focussed on the mission.

The header pic for alignment on TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment

sums it up pretty well.
Also remember that the Deva says that Roy is trying. Even though he takes actions at times that veer away from his alignment, he still makes a conscious effort to act according to the principles of his alignment.

As far as how Eugene stacks up currently against the tvtropes picture you just posted a link to:

Nice guy (and we're not going by the strict 'sunshine & butterflies' definition of nice either): Yeah, right. Eugene is only nice either when it suits him to be or when he is dealing with a fellow wizard. As sarcastic as Roy is, he's stuck his neck out multiple times for people he doesn't necessarily like, and he's been civil and diplomatic to races that even most Good adventurers would kill just as soon as look at.

Plays by the rules: Only if we define 'rules' as 'whatever gets Eugene Greenhilt what he wants'. He's impersonated an Archon, falsified a trial verdict, and broken a direct promise to a celestial being not ten seconds after making it.

Eugene is apparently operating under the assumption that his place in the Lawful Good afterlife is assured regardless of his actions now. My understanding, based upon the last page of Start of Darkness, is that his case regarding his post-mortem residence is not actually decided until the Blood Oath of Vengeance is fulfilled. He can still screw it up but thinks that he can't. That could come back to bite him hard.

I don't know...for once I'd like to hear Eugene say something like: " I lost one child when Eric died; I'd hate have more die!" He seems to view Roy and Julia as tools to use rather than as his children. He doesn't want them to die because they can't serve his purpose rather than for their own sake.
While Eugene seems to be more amicable towards his daughter, that is only because she is a wizard like he is. In 'Start of Darkness' Eugene is shown to be completely unaware that he has more than one child (since Roy isn't old enough in the scene for Julia to be born yet, I can only surmise that Eric is still alive and Eugene is completely ignorant of his very existence) in addition to showing not even the slightest amount of attention to Roy's interests. Heck, the only reason he tells Roy about Xykon is so that Roy can in turn dump the responsibility on Julia later.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-28, 06:48 PM

(since Roy isn't old enough in the scene for Julia to be born yet, I can only surmise that Eric is still alive and Eugene is completely ignorant of his very existence)
? SoD shows Eugene learning that Sara is expecting a second child. If you are referring to the scenewhere he tells Right-Eye he has a wife and kid,it's the page right after.

Crisis21

2010-08-28, 07:29 PM

? SoD shows Eugene learning that Sara is expecting a second child. If you are referring to the scenewhere he tells Right-Eye he has a wife and kid,it's the page right after.

No, as far as I can tell from reading that myself, Sarah is saying the word 'children' as if she has already given birth, thus showing that Eugene is so self-absorbed that he didn't even notice the birth of his second child, not even that his wife was pregnant again. I believe this because Roy in that scene looks at least as old, probably slightly older, as he does in the flashback in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) where we see Eric peeking out from behind the chair.

lord_khaine

2010-08-29, 02:32 AM

Kondziu

2010-08-29, 04:17 AM

Dark Matter

2010-08-29, 02:17 PM

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 02:40 PM

The problem with talks about Eugene's aliment is there's a huge set of deeds and accomplishments that we just don't know about. He was a LG adventurer, apparently of high level, and he died of old age. How good was he? How lawful? We don't know.

But the people who do know (Roy, Eugene's wife, the Archon) don't appear to think that Eugene is going to have a problem getting in after his blood oath is taken care of. His current deeds, though un-lawful, won't carry enough weight to change his balance.

Except that a single action, if drastic enough, can tip the balance by itself. Two examples are Roy abandoning Elan to an unknown fate (which would have gotten his file chucked in the True Neutral bin if he hadn't come to his senses according to the Deva) and Miko killing Shojo (which I believe Rich said at one point made her Lawful Neutral. Can't find where though).

Myself, I also was pretty certain that Eugene would still get into the LG afterlife. Up until he burned V's file immediately after promising a Deva that he would deliver it to Roy next time he manifested. In my opinion, if nothing else Eugene has done would have a drastic effect on his placement in the afterlife, this action still could.

One of the tenets of real life law is 'guilt by association'. If your friend robs a bank, that is their problem, not yours. If you knew that they had robbed a bank and you willfully deceived an officer of the law about this fact, then it is now your problem and you can be charged accordingly.

While Eugene is not trafficking with fiends, he is willfully covering up V's actions. Eugene is now an accomplice in V's dealings with the lower planes by this action.

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 02:46 PM

Except that a single action, if drastic enough, can tip the balance by itself. Two examples are Roy abandoning Elan to an unknown fate (which would have gotten his file chucked in the True Neutral bin if he hadn't come to his senses according to the Deva) and Miko killing Shojo (which I believe Rich said at one point made her Lawful Neutral. Can't find where though).
Rich has never commented on what alignment Miko was after her fall.

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 02:57 PM

Rich has never commented on what alignment Miko was after her fall.

My mistake then. Must have been someone else, it has been a while.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-29, 03:17 PM

I believe this because Roy in that scene looks at least as old, probably slightly older, as he does in the flashback in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) where we see Eric peeking out from behind the chair.
I'd chalk that up to inconsistency. I view everything before #198ish a bit iffy when it comes to canon.

silvadel

2010-08-29, 03:24 PM

Maybe he will forget everything that happened on the cloud while he was limboed upon entering celestia.

Dark Matter

2010-08-29, 03:36 PM

I also was pretty certain that Eugene would still get into the LG afterlife. Up until he burned V's file immediately after promising a Deva that he would deliver it to Roy next time he manifested. In my opinion, if nothing else Eugene has done would have a drastic effect on his placement in the afterlife, this action still couldYou mean that future action might if he takes it. Eugene didn't need to read the folder, he already knew the details. Thus far he hasn't manifested to Roy, thus far he hasn't lied (or omitted the truth) about what V is up to.

Granted, I doubt Eugene will change his mind, but he's got free will and hasn't followed through yet.

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 03:50 PM

I'd chalk that up to inconsistency. I view everything before #198ish a bit iffy when it comes to canon.

OK, how about this.

Eric is depicted in the afterlife as being a small child, probably somewhere around five years old. The afterlife shows people as their idealized versions of themselves, but since Eric never got any older than when he died, he does not appear to be any different as he is still a child in his own perception.

Julia was not born until two years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html) after Eric was dead. Roy is 29 currently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html), having been 28 at the start of the comic. According to 'On the Origin of PCs', Julia is nine years old during Roy's part where Eugene visits him as Bash U, seven years before Comic #1. This means that Eric died when Roy was (28-7-9-2) ten. The SoD scene in question happened when Roy was seven (21 years prior to comic #1).

All of this information points to Eric having already been born during the SoD scene under debate.

For your theory to be correct, Eric would have to have been less than three, closer to two as Sarah does not appear pregnant in the SoD scene, years old when he died. As Eric appears to be older than this in the afterlife, and Roy does not find anything different about Eric's appearance, I have to say he was already born at that time.

Rotipher

2010-08-29, 03:58 PM

Well, the Archon does not *think* Eugene could go all the way to evil in the position he is at right now.

But we do not know:
* If it is not "realistic" or "impossible".
* If it applies only to evil, but maybe not to neutral (given the things Eugene can still do)
* If the Archon is simply wrong. It's not really his area of expertise.
* What else Eugene might be doing until "things are over".

Actually, the archon's remark would, at most, rule out Eugene's going to the Lawful Evil afterlife of Hell. He might still be fair game for any of the other Lower Planes, and his recent circumventions of Lawful behavior could be shifting him toward one of the more Chaotic ones.

FWIW, I'm kind of hoping Eugene finally does have his case heard in Heaven ... and is rejected, not just because he's stopped acting LG after death, but because he'd stopped acting that way even before he died. He was already a self-centered jerkass who dodged his responsibilities, so Celestia's agents could have left him waiting by the gates all this time merely as a matter of procedure: they'd always meant to bump him down to a Neutral plane, but his oath forced them to delay the proceedings until it's resolved. Now, his misbehavior after death may have condemned him to an even worse afterlife, all because he was too impatient to reach a paradise he'd never earned in the first place.

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 04:13 PM

Actually, the archon's remark would, at most, rule out Eugene's going to the Lawful Evil afterlife of Hell. He might still be fair game for any of the other Lower Planes, and his recent circumventions of Lawful behavior could be shifting him toward one of the more Chaotic ones.

FWIW, I'm kind of hoping Eugene finally does have his case heard in Heaven ... and is rejected, not just because he's stopped acting LG after death, but because he'd stopped acting that way even before he died. He was already a self-centered jerkass who dodged his responsibilities, so Celestia's agents could have left him waiting by the gates all this time merely as a matter of procedure: they'd always meant to bump him down to a Neutral plane, but his oath forced them to delay the proceedings until it's resolved. Now, his misbehavior after death may have condemned him to an even worse afterlife, all because he was too impatient to reach a paradise he'd never earned in the first place.

No, according to the very last page in Start of Darkness, the only thing keeping Eugene out of the Lawful Good afterlife right then is his Blood oath of vengeance. While Eugene was indeed a self-centered jerk, he still managed a LG alignment while alive, even if only barely (opinions on how well he did so may vary, but he did do so nonetheless).

The whole argument is whether his case is closed or not. If his case is closed, then nothing he does before Xykon is destroyed matters so long as Xykon is ultimately destroyed. If it isn't closed, then his actions, even though he's dead, still have an impact on his case regardless of whether it aids in Xykon's destruction or not.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-29, 04:35 PM

As Eric appears to be older than this in the afterlife
See, now, this is where we're gonna disagree. He seems exactly like a 2-3 year old to me. I've never met a 5 year old that still gets carried around the house (granted, it is the afterlife so she won't get tired of carrying him). The main problem with my idea is size. Eric seems really big--bigger than Nale (21-22 years old) 15~16 years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), even.

But the major flaw I see with your idea is that it turns Eugene from a jerk to an idiot who somehow forgot he has a second child,* despite the fact that he wants to push wizardry on one of them.

*Not to mention, the scene in question can either be interpreted as:
A.) Eugene's only heartwarming scene. Having him forgot about his baby son seems...twisted.
B.) Eugene spinning up a sympathetic excuse to notgo after Xykon.Mentioning an even younger second child would garner even more sympathy.

Also, I just realized: The SoD scene in question says "21 years ago". Julia is 16 (maybe 17 now). So was Sara pregnant for 5 years? :smalltongue:

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 04:56 PM

See, now, this is where we're gonna disagree. He seems exactly like a 2-3 year old to me. I've never met a 5 year old that still gets carried around the house (granted, it is the afterlife so she won't get tired of carrying him). The main problem with my idea is size. Eric seems really big--bigger than Nale (21-22 years old) 15~16 years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), even.
Eric's size is part of why I think he's older. He's also pretty articulate and intelligent, much more so than a 2-3 year old should be.

But the major flaw I see with your idea is that it turns Eugene from a jerk to an idiot who somehow forgot he has a second child,* despite the fact that he wants to push wizardry on one of them.
That's the whole point of the scene in my view. It paints Eugene as so self absorbed that he has not only ignored everything important to his eldest child, but he hasn't even noticed that he had a second one!

Sarah's whole demeanor is not of a woman revealing a pregnancy either. It is of a woman speaking of facts that her husband should already be aware of if he was bothering to pay attention.

*Not to mention, the scene in question can either be interpreted as:
A.) Eugene's only heartwarming scene. Having him forgot about his baby son seems...twisted.
B.) Eugene spinning up a sympathetic excuse to notgo after Xykon.Mentioning an even younger second child would garner even more sympathy.
Eugene spoiled his own heartwarming moment all on his own. He just finished a big speech about how his family was more important to him than revenge and then he goes off and shows just how little Roy's interests mean to him by way of his ignorance. Ignorance, I (and Sarah) point out that he could fix in less time than it would take him to memorize a level 1 spell. That's not just ignorance, that's willful ignorance.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-29, 05:13 PM

All good points, but it all falls apart if you take into account

The SoD scene in question says "21 years ago". Julia is 16 (maybe 17 now). So was Sara pregnant for 5 years? :smalltongue:

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 05:22 PM

Eric's size is part of why I think he's older. He's also pretty articulate and intelligent, much more so than a 2-3 year old should be.
How can you tell that? All we see Eric say is a handful of very simple sentences, and the fact that he speaks in bold, lower case letters suggests that he isn't particularly articulate. 2-3 years old seems bang on the nail to me.

And according to his headstone, Eugene is a "devoted husband". How could he possibly not notice his wife is pregnant, let alone has already given birth? That really defies believability; it's pretty obvious that the scene in question is the moment Eugene finds out he's going to have kid number two.

yermajesty

2010-08-29, 05:25 PM

yermajesty

2010-08-29, 05:29 PM

That's what I said, yeah.

The question is: how reliable is Roy's Archon's opinion. I lean towards it being reliable, but that is just opinion. We can't really be sure.

the real question here is: how far would you trust a suspended ball of light?

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 05:39 PM

How can you tell that? All we see Eric say is a handful of very simple sentences, and the fact that he speaks in bold, lower case letters suggests that he isn't particularly articulate. 2-3 years old seems bang on the nail to me.

And according to his headstone, Eugene is a "devoted husband". How could he possibly not notice his wife is pregnant, let alone has already given birth? That really defies believability; it's pretty obvious that the scene in question is the moment Eugene finds out he's going to have kid number two.
Eric says 'wanna play blocks with me?' which suggests a fair bit more development. Were he not born yet in that scene, the age he'd have been at when he died would have likely said something more simple like 'wanna play blocks?' Five year old children, which is as old as I'd place Eric, maybe closer to four years, still speak with child-like articulation.

The scene also shows that Eugene is known to be frequently absent due to 'work', or whatever an adventurer/wizard does that is similar. Long absences could explain him missing Sarah's pregnancy.Even Sarah herself says that Eugene focused his attention away from her and back towards his work (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html), so it is not outside the realm of possibility that he was ignorant of Sarah to the point that he missed her second pregnancy. Finally, the tombstone also says 'Passable Father' and I expect most of that is due to his treatment of Julia.

Also consider that people tend to think better of the dearly departed than they do of the living. Anything on Eugene's tombstone is going to have a distinctly positive slant to it regardless of the reality.

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 05:48 PM

Eric says 'wanna play blocks with me?' which suggests a fair bit more development. Were he not born yet in that scene, the age he'd have been at when he died would have likely said something more simple like 'wanna play blocks?' Five year old children, which is as old as I'd place Eric, maybe closer to four years, still speak with child-like articulation.
Balls. I could speak complete sentences at age two and was already making simple puns before the age of three. And I was hardly some kind of child prodigy in that regard, either.

The scene also shows that Eugene is known to be frequently absent due to 'work', or whatever an adventurer/wizard does that is similar. Long absences could explain him missing Sarah's pregnancy.
Not convincingly, it couldn't.

yes! 2 in a row! WOOOOOOOOOT!

im so pitiable.
Yeah, it's against the rules to post twice in a row, let alone to add a third one in celebration. Use the edit button.

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 05:59 PM

Balls. I could speak complete sentences at age two and was already making simple puns before the age of three. And I was hardly some kind of child prodigy in that regard, either.

'Wanna play blocks?' is a complete sentence. Also, I'm pretty sure you were still speaking in a way that would be considered childlike, complete sentences and puns included, for several years afterward.

While I am apparently not making any arguments that would completely preclude Eric not being as young as you think he is, neither are you making any that would prevent him from being the age I'm proposing.

The only thing that will decide this argument is Rich coming forth and stating one way or the other. I propose the matter closed until such time.

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 06:13 PM

'Wanna play blocks?' is a complete sentence. Also, I'm pretty sure you were still speaking in a way that would be considered childlike, complete sentences and puns included, for several years afterward.
You can be "pretty sure" of what you like, but I'm absolutely certain that I would have been able to say "Wanna play blocks with me?" long before my third birthday. In fact, I've heard audio tapes of myself around that age, and I'd have probably been more likely to phrase it as "Would you like to play blocks with me", because I was often doing my best to talk as much like an adult as possible.

The only thing that will decide this argument is Rich coming forth and stating one way or the other. I propose the matter closed until such time.
Oh, absolutely the matter's closed. There's already an entire thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35936) dedicated to the timeline of the story, with all the attendant nitpicking and bickering goes along with it. It's the general consensus that Eric died at the age of two or three, and that he was born approximately twenty years before the comic began. In fact, you're the only person I've ever seen who's suggested otherwise. :smalltongue:

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 06:34 PM

Oh, absolutely the matter's closed. There's already an entire thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35936) dedicated to the timeline of the story, with all the attendant nitpicking and bickering goes along with it. It's the general consensus that Eric died at the age of two or three, and that he was born approximately twenty years before the comic began. In fact, you're the only person I've ever seen who's suggested otherwise. :smalltongue:

The funny thing about that consensus is that if he was three at the time of his death, my theory of him already being born in that scene is still correct.

Me, I was basing my observations on speech on my recent interactions with young children of my cousins at a family reunion. Ages 2-5 and there wasn't a whole lot of difference in how they spoke really.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-29, 06:44 PM

The funny thing about that consensus is that if he was three at the time of his death, my theory of him already being born in that scene is still correct.
Does that mean Julia is a fourth child or something? The scene took place 21 years prior to strip #1. Julia is 16-17. >_>

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 06:45 PM

The funny thing about that consensus is that if he was three at the time of his death, my theory of him already being born in that scene is still correct.
What's more likely: that Rich Burlew wrote a joke that only you got, or that there was no joke and you've simply got the wrong end of the stick? I know where my money's going.

Since we don't know which month each event takes place in, and all we've got to go on is year numbers, the nearest we can say is that Eric died somewhere between his second and third birthdays. That doesn't validate your theory in any way.

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 07:00 PM

What's more likely: that Rich Burlew wrote a joke that only you got, or that there was no joke and you've simply got the wrong end of the stick? I know where my money's going.

Since we don't know which month each event takes place in, and all we've got to go on is year numbers, the nearest we can say is that Eric died somewhere between his second and third birthdays. That doesn't validate your theory in any way.
*Rolls his eyes* Of course there was a joke. Any time a man gets that kind of shocked look upon being told he has children in a comedy themed media, there is a joke.

The only question is the joke that: Sarah just let on that she was pregnant again and caught Eugene off guard, or that: Eugene is so self-absorbed that he didn't even notice that he had a second child.

The more I read that scene the way it is written, the more the second example makes sense to me. I am not saying that the first one doesn't make sense in the context, just that to me the second makes more sense as well as being funnier.

Like I said, there is NO WAY for us to be certain until Rich makes a statement one way or the other. We can't base anything on Eric's age at death until we know what it was, and we won't until Rich says so.

yermajesty

2010-08-29, 07:11 PM

rules?:smallconfused: whats the point of godhood if you have to follow rules?

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 07:40 PM

*Rolls his eyes* Of course there was a joke. Any time a man gets that kind of shocked look upon being told he has children in a comedy themed media, there is a joke.

The only question is the joke that: Sarah just let on that she was pregnant again and caught Eugene off guard, or that: Eugene is so self-absorbed that he didn't even notice that he had a second child.
The first example isn't what I term a "joke"; it's just a woman obliquely letting on that she's pregnant and her husband being shocked by the news. Eugene not knowing his son had already been born would be a joke - but a pretty poor one in my opinion, and one that severely stretches credibility at that. What, so Eugene missed the morning sickness, the mood swings, the cravings, the increasing size of his wife's belly, the whole labour itself, missed every single thing Sara ever said about the baby, never even noticed the small child living in his own house - he missed all these things, but Sara casually using the word "children" in a sentence is enough to bring reality crashing home?

Sorry, don't buy it for one second. Especially when there's another explanation that makes a hundred times more sense.

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 07:50 PM

The first example isn't what I term a "joke"; it's just a woman obliquely letting on that she's pregnant and her husband being shocked by the news. Eugene not knowing his son had already been born would be a joke - but a pretty poor one in my opinion, and one that severely stretches credibility at that. What, so Eugene missed the morning sickness, the mood swings, the cravings, the increasing size of his wife's belly, the whole labour itself, missed every single thing Sara ever said about the baby, never even noticed the small child living in his own house - he missed all these things, but Sara casually using the word "children" in a sentence is enough to bring reality crashing home?

Sorry, don't buy it for one second. Especially when there's another explanation that makes a hundred times more sense.
And that's where we differ, because I do buy it. I buy it even more because it is a joke, no matter how poor anyone might think it and comedy is the core of this comic. The way the line is delivered, and worded, makes me buy that possibility 'a hundred times' more than the one you are spouting.

All those things you mentioned Eugene missing? That just drives home how self absorbed he is.

Have you ever known someone who is oblivious to something happening that you find obvious? Even though that person is otherwise intelligent and decent?

Have you ever been that person yourself? The one finding yourself wondering what the heck is going on while everyone around you is making derogatory comments about you missing something 'so completely obvious'? I have. I know that look Eugene has on his face in that scene, the one that says 'What the heck did I miss?!' because I've worn it myself. So, yes, I can totally buy that Eugene missed all of that.

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 07:55 PM

Oh man, you glossed over your wife's pregancy and the birth of your children, didn't you? Sorry dude, I stand corrected. :smalltongue:

Crisis21

2010-08-29, 08:02 PM

Oh man, you glossed over your wife's pregancy and the birth of your children, didn't you? Sorry dude, I stand corrected. :smalltongue:

:smalltongue: I wish. It would mean I actually had a wife and children. I've never quite been that bad, but the only difference between my experiences and what I'm seeing there is scale.

Nimrod's Son

2010-08-29, 08:18 PM

I wish. It would mean I actually had a wife and children.
Dude... They're, like, STANDING RIGHT NEXT YOU! :smallwink:

LightsOnNo1Home

2010-08-30, 06:00 AM

the real question here is: how far would you trust a suspended ball of light?

An ordinary ball of light? Not much, but we are talking about an Archon, which as far as I understand the rules, is a being of pure law and good, so while he is low ranking in the hierarchy of celestia, he is probably the most reliable source to state an opinion on the matter. I reckon the only MORE reliable source would be direct word of god, and as I said before, I don't think we are going to get that, cos I don't think The Giant would give spoilers for his own work. For what it's worth, Roy also seems to believe Eugene will get in, or he wouldn't have told him to stay away from Sara when he does.

Again, the weight of all this is debatable, but in light of no evidence to the contrary, and regardless of my own personal views about the fairness of it, I don't see Eugene being kicked to another afterlife at this stage.

Dark Matter

2010-08-30, 07:45 AM

Something else to point out is even that ball of light is willing to bend the rules in order to help destroy Xykon. With *that* as a baseline, I'm not sure Eugene's actions are going to be viewed as all that un-lawful, or all that un-good.

Right now for the most part Eugene has no choice but behave in a lawful Good manor. He has to work through Roy (not by choice), and he's even very limited in when he can show up and what he can say (ditto). Mortals have free will, as a spirit on an alignment plane, his is restricted.

Ancalagon

2010-08-30, 07:51 AM

:smalltongue: I wish. It would mean I actually had a wife and children. I've never quite been that bad, but the only difference between my experiences and what I'm seeing there is scale.

In this case, scale does matter.

It's one thing to not-get someone tries to tell you they have hooked up and another to miss the entire pregancy of your wife. Sometimes scale simply does matter. This here is one of those cases.

factotum

2010-08-30, 10:33 AM

You seem to be assuming that a pregnant woman immediately balloons up so she's obviously pregnant, Ancalagon. That isn't the case. In reality, a woman who's already three months pregnant (and thus at a stage where she'd be fairly sure she was pregnant!) wouldn't show much outward sign of it.

Dark Matter

2010-08-30, 10:33 AM

In this case, scale does matter.

It's one thing to not-get someone tries to tell you they have hooked up and another to miss the entire pregancy of your wife. Sometimes scale simply does matter. This here is one of those cases.Yes and no. There are lots of "good" and "lawful" reasons to miss "the entire pregnancy of your wife" (soldiers in wars for example). Being a LG adventurer out doing LG adventuring would presumably count.

faustin

2010-08-30, 12:13 PM

An ordinary ball of light? Not much, but we are talking about an Archon, which as far as I understand the rules, is a being of pure law and good, so while he is low ranking in the hierarchy of celestia, he is probably the most reliable source to state an opinion on the matter. I reckon the only MORE reliable source would be direct word of god, and as I said before, I don't think we are going to get that, cos I don't think The Giant would give spoilers for his own work. For what it's worth, Roy also seems to believe Eugene will get in, or he wouldn't have told him to stay away from Sara when he does.

Again, the weight of all this is debatable, but in light of no evidence to the contrary, and regardless of my own personal views about the fairness of it, I don't see Eugene being kicked to another afterlife at this stage.

Maybe i´m wrong, but if it is any way to be condemned because post-portem deeds, messing with celestial hierarchy it´s a fine one for sure.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-30, 07:36 PM

Yes and no. There are lots of "good" and "lawful" reasons to miss "the entire pregnancy of your wife" (soldiers in wars for example). Being a LG adventurer out doing LG adventuring would presumably count.
Was Eugene even an actual adventurer? From what I can tell, he only adventured when he tried to find Xykon. I assumed that after meeting Sara, he stuck to magical research out of the home. (I guess some of his six non-age-related deaths could be from magical accidents whilst experimenting, with a few from adventuring.)

Dark Matter

2010-08-30, 07:50 PM

Raised from the dead 6 times, costing him 6 levels? That sure sounds like an adventurer to me. It's a staple for adventurers to treat death like a revolving door, further we've seen him with his crew. And I'm not sure how dangerous "research" is excluding summoning demons, which presumably he didn't do.

We know darn well he was an adventurer.

What we don't know if it was being an adventurer which kept him busy and away from his family. Just because there are LG reasons for him to be gone doesn't mean they apply. We simply don't know how close to the alignment edge he was/is... but the people who have more info don't think him going over the edge is reasonably possible.

Granted, that's not strong evidence.