[3.5] Great Crossbow

[EnnPeeCee]

From an optimization standpoint, I know there are much much better weapons. However, I really want to see what I can do with the Great Crossbow. The main difficulty with it is the fact that it takes a full-round action to reload. As such, I thought it would be cool to see it used for single powerful attacks, most likely at a distance. I want to be able to say "Boom, Headshot".

My first thoughts were to use scout or rogue to gain some precision damage, but realized that the bonus damage only works within 30', preventing sniping. The same applies for the Order of the Bow Initiate's bonus damage. I don't really want to be that close with only being able to attack once every two rounds.

Any thoughts on what to use, other than the standard ranged combat feats? Mind, this is more of a silly optimization, I know there are better options.


Edit: Finally found the Sniper Scout ACF, I knew I had seen it before.

[Eldariel]

Hunter's Mercy, Ranger-spell, guarantees a critical. Deepwood Sniper [MotW] increases the crit multiplier of the weapon by x2 eventually, so you'll have 18-20/x4 crits, which is very nice. Then just stack any possible static increases you can find on it (Crossbow Sniper [PHBII], Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII] and Knowledge Devotion [CChamp] off the top of my head) and profit.

Tho there are ways to reload it faster for iteratives/Rapid Shot too.

[EnnPeeCee]

Hunter's Mercy, Ranger-spell, guarantees a critical. Deepwood Sniper [MotW] increases the crit multiplier of the weapon by x2 eventually, so you'll have 18-20/x4 crits, which is very nice. Then just stack any possible static increases you can find on it (Crossbow Sniper [PHBII], Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII] and Knowledge Devotion [CChamp] off the top of my head) and profit.

Tho there are ways to reload it faster for iteratives/Rapid Shot too.

Well, all that is working well into my initial plan. At the moment my idea was to go with a Ranger/Sniper Scout with Swift Hunter (fixed to allow for sniping skirmish). I didn't even think to look in MotW.

I kinda wish there was a way to get some weapon specialization without fighter levels, that would be decent with this.

[Eldariel]

Well, all that is working well into my initial plan. At the moment my idea was to go with a Ranger/Sniper Scout with Swift Hunter (fixed to allow for sniping skirmish). I didn't even think to look in MotW.

I kinda wish there was a way to get some weapon specialization without fighter levels, that would be decent with this.

Pious Templar 3 gets you Weapon Spec. Tho you need a custom deity with Great Crossbow as favored weapon. Warblade 6 is another option.

[gomipile]

Edit: Finally found the Sniper Scout ACF, I knew I had seen it before.

I'm curious, where is that from? I haven't seen it before.

[Jjeinn-tae]

I'm curious, where is that from? I haven't seen it before.

It's from Dragon Magazine 346 apparently. It's rather nice, though you don't get the AC from skirmish, without gaining more damage than skirmish.

[EnnPeeCee]

Pious Templar 3 gets you Weapon Spec. Tho you need a custom deity with Great Crossbow as favored weapon. Warblade 6 is another option.
I don't think its worth that much multiclassing, but thanks, I didn't know about those.


I'm curious, where is that from? I haven't seen it before.
^ What Jjeinn-tae said. I found it in the crystal-keep class index though.

Edit: Taking a look at Deepwood Sniper, I can't help but notice that most of its abilities are rather lackluster. Is it worth taking for more than 2 levels? I can see taking it to 7, but even that is stretching it.

[Eldariel]

Edit: Taking a look at Deepwood Sniper, I can't help but notice that most of its abilities are rather lackluster. Is it worth taking for more than 2 levels? I can see taking it to 7, but even that is stretching it.

It's fairly good. The crit range multipliers in particular. Mystic Ranger X (for lots of Hunter's Mercys)/Scout Y/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 7 seems about right. For the long term. Note the range increases. Combined with Gnome Crossbow Sight [A&EG] for headshots from a mile away. See if you could combine Swift Hunter with Sniper's Shot instead of Skirmish, and use classes like Unseen Seer and Dragon Devotee to advance it; it's not splat material so it's not mentioned but it's obviously similar enough to consider for all those.

EDIT: Also, if taking Fighter, you could use the Targeteer's "Sniper"-ability instead of Scout's "Sniper's Shot". That'd instead improve your chances of critting by giving up the additional attacks (that you couldn't take anyways). You also get free Great Crossbow Prof from Targeteer so that seems like a gimme. You could even use Weapon Master (if you sink infinite feats into it) to get Ki Damage. Increased Multiplier & Ki Critical would also give you a filthy threat range all things considered (base 18-20; 15-20 with Imp Crit or such; 13-20 with Ki Critical; 9-20 with Sniper giving up Rapid Shot and 3 iteratives). And x5 multiplier. Yay!

[Darrin]

From an optimization standpoint, I know there are much much better weapons. However, I really want to see what I can do with the Great Crossbow. The main difficulty with it is the fact that it takes a full-round action to reload.

Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c): get your unseen servant to use its full-round action to reload for you.

[EnnPeeCee]

It's fairly good. The crit range multipliers in particular. Mystic Ranger X (for lots of Hunter's Mercys)/Scout Y/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 7 seems about right. For the long term. Note the range increases. Combined with Gnome Crossbow Sight [A&EG] for headshots from a mile away. See if you could combine Swift Hunter with Sniper's Shot instead of Skirmish, and use classes like Unseen Seer and Dragon Devotee to advance it; it's not splat material so it's not mentioned but it's obviously similar enough to consider for all those.

Since I'm not actually building this for anything, I'll just say its all ok. =)
With a little homebrew, would a "Swift Hunter" feat with fighter instead of ranger be good for this? It would miss out on Hunter's Mercy and other spells, but the amount of feats this thing looks like it needs is a bit staggering.

Edit:

EDIT: Also, if taking Fighter, you could use the Targeteer's "Sniper"-ability instead of Scout's "Sniper's Shot". That'd instead improve your chances of critting by giving up the additional attacks (that you couldn't take anyways). You also get free Great Crossbow Prof from Targeteer so that seems like a gimme. You could even use Weapon Master (if you sink infinite feats into it) to get Ki Damage. Increased Multiplier & Ki Critical would also give you a filthy threat range all things considered (base 18-20; 15-20 with Imp Crit or such; 13-20 with Ki Critical; 9-20 with Sniper giving up Rapid Shot and 3 iteratives). And x5 multiplier. Yay!
Was looking at just that, which gave me ^ that idea.


Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c): get your unseen servant to use its full-round action to reload for you.
True, but getting a lighter crossbow would be easier if I wanted more attacks.

Edit Edit: I was also thinking it would be safe to assume all of these "as a full round attack" abilities could be lumped together. It would hardly be overpowered.

[Eldariel]

Edit Edit: I was also thinking it would be safe to assume all of these "as a full round attack" abilities could be lumped together. It would hardly be overpowered.

Sure, but if leaning towards a Critical Hit-build, Sniper's Shot isn't multiplied and thus becomes semi-useless. Not that it was anything but semi-useless to start with. Multipliers, on the other hand, can deal real damage. If you only had access to Pathfinder Vital Aim...

Anyways, if we use a Large Great Crossbow, add 6 points from our 34 Dex, 4 from Weapon Mastery and 5 from Knowledge Devotion, we'll end up with (3d8+15)*5 or 15d8+75 damage, which is already somewhat respectable 142 damage. Note that as this is assuming no magic at all, it's actually quite alright for a single shot. If we somehow got us a Gargantuan Great Crossbow, it'd deal 6d8 base for a very respectable 30d8 on a critical, totaling at 135 from that alone (210 damage).

That'd require two size increases tho which is a bit hard (well, Expansion or Polymorph, I guess). Oh, and Ki Damage could max the weapon base damage for 24 for our Large or 48 for our Gargantuan Crossbow. Crit damage isn't unfortunately multiplied so we get left with 24+12d8+75 as opposed to the actually-quite-good 120+75. Still, 153. Pathfinder Vital Aim would be nice +50 damage each.


EDIT: Oh yeah, get at least 1d6 Sneak Attack (you think up the way), Craven and Telling Blow. Since we're critting anyways, boom, instant +100 damage.

[EnnPeeCee]

Sure, but if leaning towards a Critical Hit-build, Sniper's Shot isn't multiplied and thus becomes semi-useless. Not that it was anything but semi-useless to start with. Multipliers, on the other hand, can deal real damage. If you only had access to Pathfinder Vital Aim...

Anyways, if we use a Large Great Crossbow, add 6 points from our 34 Dex, 4 from Weapon Mastery and 5 from Knowledge Devotion, we'll end up with (3d8+15)*5 or 15d8+75 damage, which is already somewhat respectable 142 damage. Note that as this is assuming no magic at all, it's actually quite alright for a single shot. If we somehow got us a Gargantuan Great Crossbow, it'd deal 6d8 base for a very respectable 30d8 on a critical, totaling at 135 from that alone (210 damage).

That'd require two size increases tho which is a bit hard (well, Expansion or Polymorph, I guess). Oh, and Ki Damage could max the weapon base damage for 24 for our Large or 48 for our Gargantuan Crossbow. Crit damage isn't unfortunately multiplied so we get left with 24+12d8+75 as opposed to the actually-quite-good 120+75. Still, 153. Pathfinder Vital Aim would be nice +50 damage each.

That's looking real nice. I'd like the character to remain his normal size, mostly because I think it would be silly to see a gargantuan guy trying to snipe rather than fighting in melee, but also because it would be counter productive to remaining hidden.

Thanks for the help. Time for me to start comparing things, see if I can make some decisions.

[Crasical]

Does Hunter's Mercy work on crossbows? I was under the impression it specifically excluded them.

[Eldariel]

That's looking real nice. I'd like the character to remain his normal size, mostly because I think it would be silly to see a gargantuan guy trying to snipe rather than fighting in melee, but also because it would be counter productive to remaining hidden.

Thanks for the help. Time for me to start comparing things, see if I can make some decisions.

Found something else browsing Snow Owl's old builds. Get a Fierce Crossbow. It's from A&EG. Fierce allows you to split your Dex-bonus between damage and AC; since you're a sniper, you don't plan on taking hits anyways so that's +12 to your base damage, +60 composite.

So, to recap, things you'll need:
- Fighter 4 (Ranged Weapon Mastery, Weapon Spec, etc.)
- Deepwood Sniper 7 (bla bla bla)
- Weapon Master 7 (bla bla bla)
- 1d6 Sneak Attack
- Skillpoints to max out Knowledge Devotion (and preferably Hide too; class skills are mostly solved with Able Learner or Education)
- Featz (lots)


Does Hunter's Mercy work on crossbows? I was under the impression it specifically excluded them.

Oh yeah. Well, luckily we're no longer thinking about Hunter's Mercy anyways :smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Oh yeah, and Strongarm Bracers = Large Great Crossbow on a Medium character. Yeah, you're wielding a ballista but you can do that as Medium :smallbiggrin: Also, I think you can be satisfied if you can one-shot a Balor. They have 290 HP and DR 15/blablabla. So 306 points needed.

[EnnPeeCee]

Craven only applies when sneak attack does, and SA only works within 30', so I don't think that works. Great source of damage yes, but not really for this.

So far its looking like a Thug Targeteer Fighter + PrCs. As for race, I was thinking elf, but human is always an option.

Edit: Darkwood Sniper's keen arrows ability states that it doesn't stack with any other keen effects. That means it would stack with improved critical?

[Bulwer]

Travel Devotion lets you move as a swift action, so that frees you up to both reload and move.

[EnnPeeCee]

Travel Devotion lets you move as a swift action, so that frees you up to both reload and move.

That it does. But when things are close enough for me to be moving, the crossbow is going to be ditched for a different weapon.



I think Weapon Master is too feat intensive to go into with this. It gives nice abilities, but it just won't fit nicely.
I'm really struggling with taking the scout levels out. I know they only add a couple dice of damage, I need to let them go. =(
I think I will keep 3 levels of ranger though, for Track, Endurance, skill points, and FLAVOR.
I may have to go with a human with Able Learner, I probably need to keep my spot check maxed too. I'd never be able to see anything I was shooting at otherwise.

[Zaq]

What Eldariel has said is more helpful than what I could come up with... but if I had to come up with something else, I'd suggest trying to get the range up stupidly high, so you can get in multiple attacks before they can close with you. Easier to do with a bow than with a crossbow, perhaps, but that's always how it is...

[Seffbasilisk]

Is the feat Telling Blow the one that lets you add in Sneak, even if normally qualifying, on a critical?

+1 to Gnommish sights, but I'd say talk to the DM. Remember, if not specced? Hire a diplomat. Small price for a day, few critical checks...

[EnnPeeCee]

What Eldariel has said is more helpful than what I could come up with... but if I had to come up with something else, I'd suggest trying to get the range up stupidly high, so you can get in multiple attacks before they can close with you. Easier to do with a bow than with a crossbow, perhaps, but that's always how it is...

At the moment, I'm looking at 280' range increments on the crossbow, I'd say that's a good distance.



Is the feat Telling Blow the one that lets you add in Sneak, even if normally qualifying, on a critical?

+1 to Gnommish sights, but I'd say talk to the DM. Remember, if not specced? Hire a diplomat. Small price for a day, few critical checks...

Oh yeah, I forgot about Telling Blow. Maybe I can fit sneak attack back in...

[Eldariel]

Craven only applies when sneak attack does, and SA only works within 30', so I don't think that works. Great source of damage yes, but not really for this.

So far its looking like a Thug Targeteer Fighter + PrCs. As for race, I was thinking elf, but human is always an option.

Edit: Darkwood Sniper's keen arrows ability states that it doesn't stack with any other keen effects. That means it would stack with improved critical?

That's a 3.0ism; back then Keen and Improved Critical stacked. If you're building a 3.5 version, they won't. It does free up the need for Improved Critical tho.

And yeah, that's why I specified Telling Blow: we're going for criticals anyways so why not add free +100 (and +1d6) damage.


And Ranger is fine. It gets bonus feats, it has nice skills, gains class features, etc.

[Altarus]

As a person who made a very competent Great Xbow Sniper in Aslancross's RHoD campaign journal here something to give you.

Male Human Pathfinder Rogue 11/Swordsage 1, a Sniper build.

1) Quick-Loading property from MiC and the Rapid Reload Feat turns the reload time to move-action.
2) Ghostly Reload from RotD allows a heavy Xbow to be reloaded as a free action 5 times at CL 10th. By extention, a Great Xbow needs a Full-round action to reload, so it shouldn't be hard to convince the DM.
3) Add in a wand chamber into the cross bow for Sniper Shot, activated as a Swift Action due to Rules Compendium, for unlimited SA range

The build consisted of at least a distance away from melee range. If I found myself in close-range, and or my stealth has been compromised (which was very hard, since I had +20s factoring the sniping penalties) , I used Dead-eye shot to score free SA.

I never needed to fire multiple times anyways since I was a Sniper and I usually dealt an average of 30+ damage from sniping. But if I had Greater Invisibility, then Ghostly Reload would have helped in that.

[EnnPeeCee]

As a person who made a very competent Great Xbow Sniper in Aslancross's RHoD campaign journal here something to give you.

Male Human Pathfinder Rogue 11/Swordsage 1, a Sniper build.

1) Quick-Loading property from MiC and the Rapid Reload Feat turns the reload time to move-action.
2) Ghostly Reload from RotD allows a heavy Xbow to be reloaded as a free action 5 times at CL 10th. By extention, a Great Xbow needs a Full-round action to reload, so it shouldn't be hard to convince the DM.
3) Add in a wand chamber into the cross bow for Sniper Shot, activated as a Swift Action due to Rules Compendium, for unlimited SA range

The build consisted of at least a distance away from melee range. If I found myself in close-range, and or my stealth has been compromised (which was very hard, since I had +20s factoring the sniping penalties) , I used Dead-eye shot to score free SA.

I never needed to fire multiple times anyways since I was a Sniper and I usually dealt an average of 30+ damage from sniping. But if I had Greater Invisibility, then Ghostly Reload would have helped in that.
Sniper's Shot is not a bad idea. Having Ranger levels also prevents me from needing UMD.




At the moment, the build looks like:
Ranger 3 / Thug Targeteer Fighter 8 / Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 1 / Fighter 1 / Deepwood Sniper 7 *not necessarily in that order

With the feats:
Point Blank Shot
Able Learner
Track - Bonus
Endurance - Bonus
Far Shot
Weapon Focus
Crossbow Sniper
Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Improved Precise Shot
Craven
Telling Blow

And Maybe:
Weapon Finesse
Monkey Grip

I would like to take Knowledge Devotion too, but I don't think I'll have the skillpoints to keep up the skills.

[ericgrau]

Actual sniping (see hide skill) gives you one possible reason to only be making one attack. Have an invisible henchmen reload a spare crossbow for twice the fire rate but only 30% less damage enchants on each (for the same amount of gold as 1 crossbow).

[Greenish]

Monkey GripPick Strongarm Bracers from MiC to save a feat and avoid the to-hit penalty.