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Mystic Muse
2010-08-21, 07:59 PM
Okay, I have a couple of players who don't take the game very seriously. I've been making their characters for them but now I'm tired of it. Next session I'm going to tell them that from now on I'm going to hand them a pre-made character when and if their current ones die or they can make their own. However, I'd like to make the process of character creation as easy as possible for them. I'm going to give them each links to the D20srd, here, a character generator, and will loan them the books if they want to make non-core characters.

Is there anything else I could do to make character generation easier?

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 08:01 PM
Well, if they don't want to learn 3.5, there's not much you can do to force it on them. The best way is just to play the game alongside people who do know what's going on and be observant. That's more or less how I learned to play.

oxybe
2010-08-21, 08:04 PM
sit both of them down and start rolling up a generic blaster wizard.

explain the steps one by one from rolling for stats to picking your class/race, skills, feats, spells & gear. make sure they understand every step along the way and why it works like it does.

then tell them to do it themselves and DO NOT HELP THEM... unless it's absolutely necessary, mostly along the lines of explaining a non-core system.

if they're experienced in the mechanics of the game it shouldn't take too long if they pay attention. if not, tell them until they can do it themselves... hope their current PC don't die.

Shpadoinkle
2010-08-21, 08:05 PM
Tell them to read the PHB cover to cover. That should give them a faint idea.

shadow_archmagi
2010-08-21, 08:46 PM
This is a major problem for my group; despite the fact that we've been playing for YEARS they still don't really know how to make a character.

Otherworld Odd
2010-08-21, 10:16 PM
Here's how I learned: Get someone who really knows how to play the game and just play with them. I started playing the game with level 15+ characters and learned from there and now it's just second nature. BTW, it's best if the person who knows how to play is the DM, and possibly one other guy that knows how to play as a PC.

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-21, 10:32 PM
the key there is "players who don't take the game seriously"

no matter what system they have they wont take it seriously.

teaching a system is secondary. get them to make a concept of a character they want to play. help them look up whatever might help them achieve their long term vision both in rules and in plot. 3.5 has a lot of fun non optimized feats and ways to build that can still make characters FUN.

if the group seems to be suffering from these interchangable characters, premades or generator clones are not the answer its vesting their characters with an essance.

of course if they are jut simply trying to do worlds largest dungeon/ break out the gestalts, tob and prepare for a bloodbath

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 12:15 PM
Easy way to generate 3.5 characters? Heroforge, its an excel spreadsheet, and will do most of the stuff players could ask for.

At that point, you really have covered everything, considering you went through with your other ideas, I mean, you could give them homework or challenges, but if they don't really care about the games mechanical aspects, it will be hard for you to get them to do that even.

Maybe compile a list of links to Handbooks for classes they might be interested in?

Asheram
2010-08-22, 02:22 PM
Cheat sheets? That's about the only thing I can suggest if they want to properly Learn the game.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-22, 02:28 PM
When I initiate new players to a (new) game, I always ask them a few questions regarding what they wish to play, then make a character with these informations. In short, I "skip" the character creation rules, it can be explained later.

Then, the first session is a sort of "tutorial" story, an easy intrigue with lots and lots of various throws, in order for the new player to understand by practice all the rules of the game. The usual "tutorial story" I play is a village fair, where various competitions take place, using most of the game mechanics.

Dr.Epic
2010-08-22, 02:38 PM
Is there anything else I could do to make character generation easier?

-Take current dead character
-Erase character's name
-Write new one
-???
-Profit

Zeta Kai
2010-08-22, 02:42 PM
If they don't wanna learn, then you can't teach them. It's as simple as that, & that applies to any subject matter. You can try to get them to want it, but barring that, they just won't learn.

So you have your options:

Get them to want to learn,
Drag their ignorant butts along,
Play something simpler, or...
Play without them.

You've tried option #2, & you're sick of it. So you've got options #1, #3, & 4 left. Which sounds the most appealing to you?

Mystic Muse
2010-08-22, 03:30 PM
If they don't wanna learn, then you can't teach them. It's as simple as that, & that applies to any subject matter. You can try to get them to want it, but barring that, they just won't learn.

So you have your options:

Get them to want to learn,
Drag their ignorant butts along,
Play something simpler, or...
Play without them.

You've tried option #2, & you're sick of it. So you've got options #1, #3, & 4 left. Which sounds the most appealing to you?

number 1 is plan A
Number 3 is Plan B
number 4 isn't really an option.

Yorrin
2010-08-22, 03:37 PM
When I teach new players the first thing I do is walk them through the default character sheet. I explain what each piece of terminology is, and then show them an example or two from PHB. So like for race I'd show them the racial stats for elves and for dwarves, and for classes I'd show them Rogue, Monk, and Wizard, etc.

After that I go through the casting system, just hitting the basics unless they express interest in being a caster. I then ask them what sort of character they see themselves playing, and take them though the class that best exemplifies that in detail, showing them exactly how one would actually make the character, and directing them as they fill out a character sheet.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-22, 04:45 PM
They're not going to really dig into the material unless they're inspired. The best way to inspire people is to play alongside them and make them green with envy from all the things your character can do. I'd go for a Cloistered Cleric with Knowledge Devotion, my robes of armor trick, Quick trait + Celerity domain to boost speed +20', undead turn attempts fueling Travel Devotion, and (of course) a decent selection of spells. Move 50' and make a full attack. Cast a standard action touch attack spell, move 50', touch your target, then cast a swift action spell. Hit almost 95% of the time, with AB = character level (from Divine Power) + STR mod + 3 (DP again) + Knowledge Devotion.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-22, 05:11 PM
They're not going to really dig into the material unless they're inspired. The best way to inspire people is to play alongside them and make them green with envy from all the things your character can do. I'd go for a Cloistered Cleric with Knowledge Devotion, my robes of armor trick, Quick trait + Celerity domain to boost speed +20', undead turn attempts fueling Travel Devotion, and (of course) a decent selection of spells. Move 50' and make a full attack. Cast a standard action touch attack spell, move 50', touch your target, then cast a swift action spell. Hit almost 95% of the time, with AB = character level (from Divine Power) + STR mod + 3 (DP again) + Knowledge Devotion.


Damn that sounds like fun. Is the OP the DM or an annoyed player? If the OP is the DM, can you conspire with one of the other players to totally show them up as a way of motivating them to learn the system?

Mystic Muse
2010-08-22, 06:03 PM
Sorry I haven't clarified. I'm the DM.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-22, 06:08 PM
Sorry I haven't clarified. I'm the DM.
But are you always the DM? Don't you want a chance to play sometimes?

Mystic Muse
2010-08-22, 06:10 PM
But are you always the DM? Don't you want a chance to play sometimes?

I do play sometimes. However for this specific group? Yes, I'm always the DM.

wick
2010-08-22, 06:13 PM
I would keep it simple no need to use materials beyond the core books. With new players there is such a thing as too many options. Start level at 1st level and I would even cut out some of the more tertiary classes and stick to the basic four (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard.) Go through the step by step with them Races, stats, classes etc.... When you actually get around to running the game you give them a few simple combats at first but then start to throw in more of the advanced rules like grappling, bull rushes, etc... after running the game for awhile you can end that campaign and restart with that playing time under their belt you can open up their class selection and perhaps allow other books depending on their comfort level.

It sounds like you have tried running them through a campaign before. Really there is only so much that you can do. As the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." I would explain that you don't want to run the game anymore becuase no one is taking it seriously. Perhaps this will motivate them to play better or to move on to something else which may be the best for everyone.

Mystic Muse
2010-08-22, 06:16 PM
Yet another thing I should have cleared up. What I mean is that they do "Beer and chips" style play, not that they don't care about the game at all. They do enjoy the game, but in terms of how they play they're about as serious as me screaming "AAAAH killer Clowns from outer space!"

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-22, 07:06 PM
Well, D&D 3.5e is really really not an optimal beer and chips game. The game encourages rules mastery too much -- you might want to switch to a gamesystem that is very simple, very loose, very easy, and can be played half drunk

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-22, 07:12 PM
Some people just don't care to consider dnd serious buisness.

For those people just force them to make their own characters. If they are not optimized, then give them a few pointers but otherwise leave them be. They will either go through a "trial by fire" and learn the basics through tough love, or they will get bored and whine and that is when you know that there is no helping them.

Unless you continue to make their characters for them. Which really isn't so terrible if everyone is having fun.

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-22, 11:08 PM
Yet another thing I should have cleared up. What I mean is that they do "Beer and chips" style play, not that they don't care about the game at all. They do enjoy the game, but in terms of how they play they're about as serious as me screaming "AAAAH killer Clowns from outer space!"

in that case the solution is so simple:

have them play bards, warlocks or warmages. those classes are fun if made to the point of comedic silliness.

ah the tales of egil sigard the full metal and spiked bard and Duck the hearing impared warmage. while the plot was serious,the moments of somewhat silly mishaps still bring a smile to my face years later.

or if you have enough unserious players, you can monkee it. any group of traveling entertainers who gain level will tend to have ended up in some either serious of unconnected misadventures or become part of some globe reaching end of the world prophecy ala dethklok. one way or the other character development and more importantly attachment should keep the game fufilling to both you and them

edit:another good idea if they are not in the mood to be serious: potion addicted elderly adventurers. they practiced their craft to first level then quit to raise a family or whathave you, now in their midlife crisis they are hopped up on bull strength potions and ready to attack the world....

Mystic Muse
2010-08-23, 05:15 PM
Okay, well, at least one of the player's wants to learn character creation. Maybe him knowing about it will convince the other two that they should learn as well. I'll ask the other two this Friday and this one other player on Labor day.



The guy I'm asking on labor day doesn't play very often because he lives at college about an hour away. He actually takes the game somewhat seriously.

I'll give them that idea Noneoyabizness

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-23, 09:43 PM
once they like a character, even if it is goofy, they will learn the rules on that character then learn other rules as they pay attention to other fun characters.

that is why the flaw of teaching optimization makes it hard unless you have other people who just play for the numbers. yes batman wizards and CoDzillas can dominate any battle or most situations, but "generic template power build" is never as much fun as the first character who you actually enjoyed. the ones that inspired you to actually care about playing the game.the ones where you see a feat in a brand new book and know its not the most powerful but say to yourself just fits the image perfectly.