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The Pressman
2010-08-21, 11:21 PM
I'd like to do this, and it seems like it would be fun. Carefully worded sense motive check answers, complex plot, etc. What flaws do you see?

TaintedLight
2010-08-21, 11:24 PM
I'd like to do this, and it seems like it would be fun. Carefully worded sense motive check answers, complex plot, etc. What flaws do you see?

Could be fun, but encounters might get REALLY repetitive if the PCs resort to swordpoint investigation. After all, we're talking about train car after train car filled with NPCs.

DementedFellow
2010-08-21, 11:27 PM
This product is a boon to find. I've seen copies of it go for 120+ dollars on eBay. That alone gives you some idea of its worth. :)

The Pressman
2010-08-21, 11:34 PM
Could be fun, but encounters might get REALLY repetitive if the PCs resort to swordpoint investigation. After all, we're talking about train car after train car filled with NPCs.

Eh, no starting weapons will see to that. And it might not be a train. It could be an inn, or anything where a bunch of people are stuck in one space. And you'll recall that in the original, there was only about 11 murderers.

DementedFellow
2010-08-21, 11:38 PM
totally misread the Original Post. I thought it was Horror on the Orient Express by Chaosium. It's a Call of Cthulhu scenario. And it is made of Awesome and Win.


On topic:

If you are going that route, then you might want to switch systems that aren't as combat oriented as D&D is. Poirot couldn't very well kill them all and say, "Problem solved."

The Pressman
2010-08-21, 11:41 PM
totally misread the Original Post. I thought it was Horror on the Orient Express by Chaosium. It's a Call of Cthulhu scenario. And it is made of Awesome and Win.


On topic:

If you are going that route, then you might want to switch systems that aren't as combat oriented as D&D is. Poirot couldn't very well kill them all and say, "Problem solved."

Do you know of one?

DementedFellow
2010-08-21, 11:46 PM
Do you know of one?

Well, World of Darkness seems to fit in with a nice murder mystery type world. Especially if you want a twist.

Failing that, depending on how your group is, Maid RPG (http://maidrpg.com/) would fit the bill as well.

The Pressman
2010-08-21, 11:55 PM
Well, World of Darkness seems to fit in with a nice murder mystery type world. Especially if you want a twist.

Failing that, depending on how your group is, Maid RPG (http://maidrpg.com/) would fit the bill as well.

I kinda doubt either of those would work, given my group.

DementedFellow
2010-08-22, 12:07 AM
Since we already mentioned Call of Cthulhu, have you thought about it? It is not a combat oriented game. Combat is there, but the characters are squishy. Depending on how you spin it, you could fore go certain skills and it might fit.

The Pressman
2010-08-22, 12:11 AM
Since we already mentioned Call of Cthulhu, have you thought about it? It is not a combat oriented game. Combat is there, but the characters are squishy. Depending on how you spin it, you could fore go certain skills and it might fit.

Maybe. But probably not.

Alleran
2010-08-22, 04:46 AM
Seeing this thread reminded me of the ending to Series 5 of the new Doctor Who, and got me excited. Then I read through it, and now have only the bitter tang of disappointment that Christmas isn't here yet.

On-topic, try and make sure the PCs don't resort to swordpoint interrogation, as was measured. I'd also worry about spells, if you're using a system that has comparatively easy access to various divinations. Even a Detect Thoughts or Zone of Truth could (when used in the right spot - or wrong depending on perspective) ruin carefully laid-out murder mysteries.

ZeroNumerous
2010-08-22, 04:56 AM
Eh, no starting weapons will see to that.

I dunno what kind of players you have, but I know I'd get a chair, break it and have myself a club rather quickly.

If the PCs want to strongarm their way through the plot, there's very little you can do to stop them.

In fact, I would suggest against stopping them and instead have their attempts tip off the real murderer who starts plotting to frame someone else.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-22, 07:35 AM
Another person who misread and thought it was cthulhu related. Darn.

I'd second CoC or WoD as systems actually. I'd also second not DnD. It's rules and abilities largely focus on and lead to combat.

Earthwalker
2010-08-22, 08:00 AM
I think you can do this in any system. I have done a murder mystery in Runequest, shadowrun and DnD.

I don't know Eberon but the lightning train sounds like the place to be for murder mystery.

Of course this only works in DnD if the players are low level, if they get too high they can just call the god of murder and ask who did it.

Put the players on a train being paid to protect Lord SuchandSuch. The murder happens and Lord SuchandSuch is the only person with any reasonable authority. So he asks his bodygaurds to investigate. Telling them not to butcher everyone but to ask around.

Populate the train with some interesting NPCs. A wizard / Archeologist and team back from a dig. A thief and member of a local organized crime syndicate. A rich merchant and family, complaining about the delay. A shifty ranger sat in the corner. That kind of thing.

Will have to build clues to who the murder is.

I would suggest the evil mummy the archeologist has brought back from the dig, is hovering in spirit form and taking control of people, making them murder so it can gain enough life force to rise again (maybe too far from murder mystery and into horror)

Satyr
2010-08-22, 08:02 AM
The best game for a mystery game is probably the Gumshoe system used in Trail of Cthulhu (which is mostly the same as Call of Cthulhu, but with some significant improvements).

Timeras
2010-08-22, 08:34 AM
If the PCs want to strongarm their way through the plot, there's very little you can do to stop them.

There are enough ways to stop them.

1. The moment they start threatening someone, the other passengers will object. If they go further, all others will gang up and beat the stuffing out of the PCs. After that nobody would be willing to cooperate with them anymore. The players fail.

2. It's not just about knowing who did it. They have to bring evidence that would be accepted at court. A forced confession wouldn't be acceptable. The players fail.

3. Actions have consequences. If players start beating up random people, the authorities will react.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-08-22, 08:43 AM
Some magic/abilities could make murder mystery harder to do. I'm thinking of paladins going "whoop, Discern Lies, Detect Evil" most of all, but there are countless others.

Aroka
2010-08-22, 10:15 AM
Do you know of one?

Games that (can) make combat a realistically unpleasant option: RuneQuest, Cyberpunk 2020, Call of Cthulhu, Trail of Cthulhu (excellent for any kind of mystery or crime business, what with GUMSHOE), Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (in fact, published adventures include a murder at a coaching inn, and a mummy loose aboard a luxury riverboat), Unisystem, GURPS...

Unisystem (All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Witchcraft) is probably among the easiest to learn, as is Trail of Cthulhu.

So uh what Satyr already said basically. ToC/GUMSHOE is wonderful for mysteries, Mythos or not.

Yora
2010-08-22, 10:33 AM
I'd rather tell my players "This is about investigation and not killing people" and trust they understand what I said, than to have everyone learn an entirely new system.

And when players want to butcher things, they will. No system can stop them from it, no matter how dangerous combat gets. :smallbiggrin:

DementedFellow
2010-08-22, 10:35 AM
I'd rather tell my players "This is about investigation and not killing people" and trust they understand what I said, than to have everyone learn an entirely new system.

Zone of Truth is a non-combat spell and would wreck what he's trying to do. So unless he wants people to play commoners, then there wouldn't be much use to play D&D with this scenario.

Yora
2010-08-22, 10:38 AM
Or you use a bit of houserules. I think quite a lot of people have removed discern lies and zone of truth from their games.

Aroka
2010-08-22, 03:10 PM
I'd rather tell my players "This is about investigation and not killing people" and trust they understand what I said, than to have everyone learn an entirely new system.

Why not spend a day or so to learn a simple new system if it does the game you want to run much, much better? Genre- or setting-specific games usually beat out generic games (or, worse, games specific to another genre or setting) at what they were made for.

Learning new RPGs seriously isn't that big a deal. I've learned like 20-30 in ~15 years, and probably know a dozen well enough to run them off the cuff. And familiarity with different systems will inevitably improve your ability to run and houserule any other system.

The Pressman
2010-08-22, 08:54 PM
I think you can do this in any system. I have done a murder mystery in Runequest, shadowrun and DnD.

I don't know Eberon but the lightning train sounds like the place to be for murder mystery.

Of course this only works in DnD if the players are low level, if they get too high they can just call the god of murder and ask who did it.

Put the players on a train being paid to protect Lord SuchandSuch. The murder happens and Lord SuchandSuch is the only person with any reasonable authority. So he asks his bodygaurds to investigate. Telling them not to butcher everyone but to ask around.

Populate the train with some interesting NPCs. A wizard / Archeologist and team back from a dig. A thief and member of a local organized crime syndicate. A rich merchant and family, complaining about the delay. A shifty ranger sat in the corner. That kind of thing.

Will have to build clues to who the murder is.

I would suggest the evil mummy the archeologist has brought back from the dig, is hovering in spirit form and taking control of people, making them murder so it can gain enough life force to rise again (maybe too far from murder mystery and into horror)

This sounds good. I also might have them start out with only being able to choose NPC levels.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-22, 08:56 PM
I dunno what kind of players you have, but I know I'd get a chair, break it and have myself a club rather quickly.

If the PCs want to strongarm their way through the plot, there's very little you can do to stop them.

In fact, I would suggest against stopping them and instead have their attempts tip off the real murderer who starts plotting to frame someone else.

Plus, youve got unarmed attacks, magic, etc. A lack of weapons alone is highly unlikely to stop violence. Even assuming the rogue doesnt have concealed weaponry somewhere...which is doubtful.

Earthwalker
2010-08-23, 04:37 AM
This sounds good. I also might have them start out with only being able to choose NPC levels.

I think you will be ok with character level 4 or under. Even higher level characters as long as you know thier abilities and how they can derail the investiagtion.

You can give reason for the thief to be breaking into cabins to look for clues, while the bard uses bluff to distract the passengers. Fighter types itimidating people to et information (this doesn't have to be tourture). Lots of fun with spells to help out.

All in all it can work, if the players will listen to Lord SuchandSuch and play it subtle, and if you can have reasonable counters to some spells if needed.

At the end of the investiagtion they even get some monster or person to beat up for being a murderer.

Make sure you keep a few evil people as passangers for false leads if the Paladin is there detecting evil one everyone. After just coz your evil doesnt mean you are guilty of anything.

The Pressman
2010-08-23, 05:09 AM
The thing is, in the original, everyone was in on it.
So I would like to at least try to have that work. It would be like having one party replace Poirot.

Eldan
2010-08-23, 07:27 AM
I don't know Eberon but the lightning train sounds like the place to be for murder mystery.

Actually, I think I've seen "Murder on the Orien express" somewhere already. :smallsmile:

Gorilla2038
2010-08-23, 07:32 AM
Do you know of one?

Well, if you want to be lazy, theres always D20 modern. Good system with all the nice bits of a low powered DND, and no re-learning (or rather, next to none)

Earthwalker
2010-08-23, 07:34 AM
The thing is, in the original, everyone was in on it.
So I would like to at least try to have that work. It would be like having one party replace Poirot.

Well you can do that, the biggest problem is the players finding out some information on one suspect and then just focusing on him/her. If you are using Lord SuchandSuch he can ask the players to find more information on other people. Also get them collecting proof.

Of course you want the players making the conclusions not Lord SuchandSuch.

Another disadvantage of DnD over say Gumshoe is the chance on blown skill checks meaning players will miss clues, make sure you repeat information so they have a better chance of finding it.

Lord Loss
2010-08-23, 07:58 AM
I'd run it with a group with either 1-3 NPC levels or Just 1 class level. Or Use CoC as the system. (I just started my own CoC-ish campaign).

The Pressman
2010-08-26, 11:32 PM
Ok. A friend and I worked it out. They will start out with 2 levels in an npc class, having just attained 2nd level and having to get to 3rd. They are on a ship BOAT, crossing a lake, when Archduke Tranz Serdinan (absolutely not based at all on a certain austrian royal :smallwink:) is found dead in his cabin. By the way, he is a reformed mind flayer. The journey is a day in when this happens. They must find out who did it among a group of 11 passengers and 11 crew. It may diverge from the Orient Express storyline in that all the passengers may have motives, but only the navigator did it, but I digress.

hamishspence
2010-08-27, 03:35 AM
Maybe that's a bit more Death on the Nile- except for in that, while only one person actually committed the first murder, two people are involved, and some of the later murders were committed by the second person.

The Pressman
2010-08-27, 03:40 AM
Maybe that's a bit more Death on the Nile- except for in that, while only one person actually committed the first murder, two people are involved, and some of the later murders were committed by the second person.

Maybe, but I'm hoping they see it as Murder on the Orient Express because then they'll assume, and everyone know what fun assumptions are.:smallwink: Sure, they might have to get used to being less powerful, but I think they'll handle it well.

Earthwalker
2010-08-27, 04:56 AM
I would allow them to play real classes as opposed to NPC ones.
Having a level 2 wizard or fighter is not going to derail any major plot points.

You never know they may even wish to continue on with the theme and become consulting dectives instead of adventures.

As they get higher levels these are the people called in when the normal crime solving spells and abilities don't work.

Going down the line you may be able to make up some PRCs that make sense and allow the players to move into them, it could be a whole campaign all based around mysteries.

Yeah other games do it better, but no reason why you can't play a mystery style DnD campaign.

The Pressman
2010-08-27, 09:43 PM
I would allow them to play real classes as opposed to NPC ones.
Having a level 2 wizard or fighter is not going to derail any major plot points.

You never know they may even wish to continue on with the theme and become consulting dectives instead of adventures.

As they get higher levels these are the people called in when the normal crime solving spells and abilities don't work.

Going down the line you may be able to make up some PRCs that make sense and allow the players to move into them, it could be a whole campaign all based around mysteries.

Yeah other games do it better, but no reason why you can't play a mystery style DnD campaign.

I wasn't going to have them keep doing NPC classes. I would let them take regular classes after 1-3 levels of NPC, and without multiclassing penalties for those NPC classes.

RebelRogue
2010-08-27, 09:50 PM
Actually, I think I've seen "Murder on the Orien express" somewhere already. :smallsmile:
I've always assumed that the name Orien was a nod to the Express.