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Amador
2010-08-22, 12:39 PM
So I'm thinking of playing a gelatinous ooze, with a template added on. What happens when a mindless base creature has a intelligence added?

Milskidasith
2010-08-22, 12:46 PM
What template?

It probably isn't legal on oozes.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-22, 12:49 PM
You can apply the Fiendish Template to an Ooze (for example). A Fiendish Gelatinous Cube would have an Int 3.

Amador
2010-08-22, 12:53 PM
I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-22, 12:55 PM
Yes, you can have a mindless creature with Intelligence. Same way you can have a evil creature without an intelligence; even though animals are neutral (and have no Intelligence).

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 12:57 PM
I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

That is...definitely odd.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-22, 01:11 PM
I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.There's no conflict, but you've got a problem: You're adding to a nonability, which doesn't work. You stay Mindless.

Now, things like the Celestial or Fiendish template? They say "Intelligence at least 3" - giving the critter a mind (and with it, skills and feats). But Half-Dragon isn't going to cut it for what you want.

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-22, 01:25 PM
Try Fiendish Half-Dragon instead? :smallwink:

DanReiv
2010-08-22, 01:56 PM
Anarchic/Axiomatic creatures template from Planar Handbook can also be applied on oozes and gives 3 INT.

Axiomatic Para-Elemental Ooze (grr elemental type not ooze)

EDIT : BUT THEN

Living spells are oozes. Pretty sure you can do some fun stuff here.

Fiendish Living Presdigitation with class levels anyone ? :smallbiggrin:

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-22, 01:58 PM
I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

Half-dragon, half-ooze? The backstory behind this must be pure gold!

The majestic dragon bowed his head, looking her lover with what could be a tender smile.
- You know, I never met someone like you before. You seem to understand my needs, my feelings... I wonder what my life could have been without you.
The gelatinous ooze shivered, and replied:
- Prlrlllttflgb..
- I love you too, honey

Wings of Peace
2010-08-22, 02:22 PM
I'm curious what the actual rules interaction here is between Gelatinous Ooze and templates that grant an intelligence bonus since we're not adding to zero we're adding to a stat that doesn't exist, it seems similar to trying to give an undead creature a con score via templates. Or are undead a special case?

Umael
2010-08-22, 02:30 PM
Half-dragon, half-ooze? The backstory behind this must be pure gold!

The majestic dragon bowed his head, looking her lover with what could be a tender smile.
- You know, I never met someone like you before. You seem to understand my needs, my feelings... I wonder what my life could have been without you.
The gelatinous ooze shivered, and replied:
- Prlrlllttflgb..
- I love you too, honey

...
I hate you.

*goes for the brain bleach*

DanReiv
2010-08-22, 02:35 PM
The fiendish/aligned creature doesn't just gives a +3 bonus to int. It states



Abilities

Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3.

I'd say for an ooze it goes from nothing to 3. But then does it still get all the immunities for being mindless ?

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 02:41 PM
Don't oozes reproduce by splitting?

hamishspence
2010-08-22, 02:42 PM
In the MM, under Nonabilities, on page 312, Mindless is a property that anything with INT - gains.

This may imply, that anything that gains an Int score, automatically loses respective immunities.

SurlySeraph
2010-08-22, 02:44 PM
Anarchic/Axiomatic creatures template from Planar Handbook can also be applied on oozes and gives 3 INT.

Axiomatic Para-Elemental Ooze (grr elemental type not ooze)

EDIT : BUT THEN

Living spells are oozes. Pretty sure you can do some fun stuff here.

Fiendish Living Presdigitation with class levels anyone ? :smallbiggrin:

Too much fun, not enough terrifying. Try a Feral Living Disjunction Warblade.

Admiral Squish
2010-08-22, 02:48 PM
I'm just curious, why does everyone go to fiendish first? Celestial does that exact same.

DanReiv
2010-08-22, 03:08 PM
Odly enough, it don't.


"Celestial" is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin of good or neutral alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

No ooze here. No Celestial Living Holy Word with paladin level to compete with the previous build :smalltongue:


The gelatinous ooze shivered, and replied:
- Prlrlllttflgb..
- I love you too, honey

That really cracked me up :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2010-08-22, 03:28 PM
I'm just curious, why does everyone go to fiendish first? Celestial does that exact same.

Most people are thinking "opponents", and *most* PC's are nominally good-aligned. So when considering templates that are for monsters the PC's will fight, most people think "Fiendish" before "Celestial".

Most people.

hamishspence
2010-08-22, 03:31 PM
There's no conflict, but you've got a problem: You're adding to a nonability, which doesn't work. You stay Mindless.


Does it actually say it works that way for all nonabilities? I checked and it doesn't mention it in the MM or SRD.

Wings of Peace
2010-08-22, 03:43 PM
Monster Manual on Nonabilities (pg. 7): Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed in the Glossary.

Nonabilities can't be increased with templates because we're not trying to add to zero we're trying to add to something that for the purpose of the creature does not exist.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 03:47 PM
Elder Ooze from Dungeonscape explicitly gives an unintelligent ooze an Int score and doesn't remove its mindlessness. Enjoy.

DanReiv
2010-08-22, 03:52 PM
But a fiendish thing can't have less than 3 in INT. The template doesn't add INT as a +3 INT and has oozes as possible base creature. It states "same as base creature but Intelligence is at least 3".

Common sense would be it keeps ooze traits except anything with being mindless. So not immune to mind affecting and so on, but is sentient and can pick, skills, feats and class-levels.

Also it is stated in the SRD in ooze type that


However, most oozes are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

The "most" here means that technically you can have sentient oozes, with INT, skills and feats (and incidently, ability to pick up class levels)

panaikhan
2010-08-22, 04:00 PM
OK, I'll bite. What class levels would a Gelatenous Cube possibly want?

Wings of Peace
2010-08-22, 04:01 PM
OK, I'll bite. What class levels would a Gelatenous Cube possibly want?

Ooze Master? :smallcool:

DanReiv
2010-08-22, 04:03 PM
Dungeon Crasher ACF ? :smallcool:

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-22, 04:14 PM
OK, I'll bite. What class levels would a Gelatenous Cube possibly want?

Woozard? :smallcool:

EvilJames
2010-08-22, 04:26 PM
An oozes immunity to mind affecting abilities don't come from it's mindlessness they are a feature of oozes. So an inteligent ooze keeps all abilities that all oozes have as listed in the MM. All the Mindlessnes does is keep them from learning feats and skills.

This also applies to constructs made intelligent. Force Golems are still immune to mind affecting abilities despite having average Int.

TaintedLight
2010-08-22, 04:30 PM
Woozard? :smallcool:

The thread is won.

Can I ask from what, in the name of all that is holy, unholy, or otherwise, your desire to play such a character arises?

hamishspence
2010-08-22, 04:33 PM
An oozes immunity to mind affecting abilities don't come from it's mindlessness they are a feature of oozes. So an inteligent ooze keeps all abilities that all oozes have as listed in the MM. All the Mindlessnes does is keep them from learning feats and skills.

Non-ability- Intelligence, actually does grant immunity to mind-affecting abilities:


Nonabilities
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.

Intelligence
Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.


The ooze's immunity to mind-affecting effects is listed with it's [Int -] in the property: Mindless.

and in MMV, instead of specifically calling them out, it simply says: Mindless: the Ooze has Int -, and all the traits associated with that nonability.

Whereas constructs, as written, have an immunity to mind-affecting effects that is not dependant on Int -, but is built into the Construct type- all get it unless specified otherwise.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 04:40 PM
Ooze Type

An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless.
Features

An ooze has the following features.

* 10-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* No good saving throws.
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the ooze has an Intelligence score. However, most oozes are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits

An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
* Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + ½ ooze’s HD + ooze’s Con modifier per full round of contact.
* Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.
It is a feature of the type.

hamishspence
2010-08-22, 04:43 PM
In the SRD, yes, however, in MMV, it states:

Mindless: Int -, and all the traits associated with that nonability.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 04:47 PM
In the SRD, yes, however, in MMV, it states:

Mindless: Int -, and all the traits associated with that nonability.

Except primary source for types and subtypes is the SRD, not MMV.

hamishspence
2010-08-22, 04:50 PM
Some things got changed over time- so the "more correct" version of Incorporeal, for example, wasn't MM, but Libris Mortis, or one of the later MMs. I'm not sure if SRD continued to update at the same rate.

For an example- the template for oozes in Dungeonscape, that removes their mindlessness, and grants "+2 Int" says:

"No longer mindless, a sentry ooze is susceptible to mind-affecting spells and effects, However, it has a +4 racial bonus on Will saves against such spells and effects"

its statblock specifies it is immune to "sleep, paralysis, and illusions" though. The immunity to illusions may come from blindness.

EvilJames
2010-08-22, 05:09 PM
I stand corrected then.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-22, 05:43 PM
Some things got changed over time- so the "more correct" version of Incorporeal, for example, wasn't MM, but Libris Mortis, or one of the later MMs. I'm not sure if SRD continued to update at the same rate.

Libris Mortis specifically stated that it was an update to the Incorporeal Subtype and how it worked in a sidebar. MMV contains no such text.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-08-22, 07:13 PM
It is a feature of the type.

Mindless is a feature of the creature type. And Ooze that isn't mindless doesn't carry any of the mental immunities.

Marnath
2010-08-22, 07:44 PM
Yes, you can have a mindless creature with Intelligence. Same way you can have a evil creature without an intelligence; even though animals are neutral (and have no Intelligence).

That's not true, animals have 1-2 int, not - .

Starbuck_II
2010-08-22, 07:54 PM
That's not true, animals have 1-2 int, not - .

I miswrote, I meant have Intelligence for animals.

JGoldenberg
2010-08-22, 08:29 PM
I'm going to just put my two cents in with Pathfinder's SRD stating that Mindless creatures who gain an intelligence score have Mindless removed.

Darrin
2010-08-22, 10:42 PM
So I'm thinking of playing a gelatinous ooze, with a template added on. What happens when a mindless base creature has a intelligence added?

A mindless creature that gains an Int score gains feats (1 per every 3 HD) and skill points (number determined by type and HD, and if the type doesn't specify, they gain the 1 skill point minimum per HD). If its Int is at least 3, it can now understand Common (although it might not be able to speak it) as the default language.

Sentry Ooze is the template in Dungeonscape. It gives an ooze animal intelligence (Int +2), which might allow it to be trained or taught tricks.

Pseudonatural template (Complete Arcane or Lords of Madness) can also be added to an ooze to bring its Int up to 3.

There's also an Awaken Ooze spell in Dragon #304, which I assume works a lot like the not-so-slimy Awaken version.

Marnath
2010-08-22, 10:45 PM
There's also an Awaken Ooze spell in Dragon #304, which I assume works a lot like the not-so-slimy Awaken version.

If you're going to awaken a gelatinous cube, you need a mimic and a rust monster too :smallbiggrin: