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WarKitty
2010-08-22, 02:25 PM
How do you build challenges for a party of wildly different optimization levels? I have a party of 6 with everything from "spends hours poring over books to build their character" to "eyes glaze over trying to pick a bonus feat out of the SRD list" to "picked combat reflexes because he thought it increased his AC." It's getting pretty hard to design encounters for them; either the optimized portion walks all over the encounter or the non-optimized members get killed.

Edit: Here's what I have

Optimized barbarian; party damage-dealer.
Optimized rogue; decent at dealing damage, great at sneaking and such Decent ranger; getting better with the addition of some to-hit bonuses
Decent sorcerer; contributes well as needed due to being a sorcerer
non-optimized bard; has not used spells to my memory
Non-optimized barbarian; can't hit anything at all

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 02:35 PM
Fights with reasons for the party to split up?

Say an army of mooks that badger the lower optimized players, while the more powerful ones deal with the Boss or whatever?

Encounters designed not around the rules of the game, but around riddles or puzzles?

Maybe bring a NPC along whose entire goal is to lift up the weaker members via buffs, and battlefield control?



Alternatively, you could sit down with the players and help them rebuild. Or talk to the optimizing players and ask them to tone down their characters. Or pick classes from a lower tier.





Another solution, but uglier is to run the campaign to the power level of your better optimized players, but suitable for a smaller amount, and have the poorly built character's players come to you after their characters get destroyed by a random fireball of doom.

*Edit* Seems like you have 4 characters who do well, just 2 lackluster ones? In that case, try interesting them in something a bit more powerful that fits the same role? Say warblade or druid?

Zeta Kai
2010-08-22, 02:37 PM
Split the party in two for combat challenges. The non-optimizers get a light challenge (under-CR monsters, some easy traps, an antagonistic NPC with high-tier class levels), while the optimizers get put through a threshing machine (over-CR monsters, SoD/S, NPCs with caster levels). A good way to arrange this is to have a clear goal, two separate sub-goals that depend on each other & a tight time-table.

Example: The party needs to rescue the princess from the enemy's extradimensional stronghold before the portal closes forever, but also needs to destroy the portal-projection crystal before the BBEG uses it to [bring in his armies/merge the two dimensions/shunt all sentient life to the Far Plane/do something else really bad soon]. If they don't split up, they'll only have time for one of the two tasks. The crystal is lightly protected by the BBEG; the real challenge is his stronghold, which is on their home turf & houses most of the enemy's forces.

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 02:39 PM
I have actually tried to split the party. Unfortunately it seems to end up with one optimized and one non-optimized in each group whenever I try it. I have done some puzzle or riddle-based encounters, but my optimizers get bored without enough combat.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 02:45 PM
Maybe give the optimizers a heads up on what you are trying to do?

Otherwise, this looks like a case of the needs(wants in this case) of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If talking to the optimizers has already been tried, and you cannot help the non optimized players out for whatever reason, it seems like you are stuck catering the lowest denominator. That sucks, but the players need to come together to help you out in that case.


*edit* Do your less optimized players care about being overshadowed?

Zeta Kai
2010-08-22, 02:47 PM
I have actually tried to split the party. Unfortunately it seems to end up with one optimized and one non-optimized in each group whenever I try it. I have done some puzzle or riddle-based encounters, but my optimizers get bored without enough combat.

Try again, but this time, steer the KitD-types to the combat-oriented goal, while the non-opts get the exploration & puzzles. This shouldn't be to hard if your up-front with your players & they're game. If they deliberately try to thwart that plan, even after understanding your reasons for it, then you have a different problem (IE jerks).

Frosty
2010-08-22, 02:49 PM
You need to train your players better, Warkitty :smallredface: I've went through entire sessions without my players swinging their weapons a single time. They need tolearn to enjoy being immersed in the story and investigating and stuff.

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 02:52 PM
I really don't want to punish the optimizers. None of them are min-maxed really. Boosting up the non-optimizers might be the best option if I can find a polite way to do so. Part of the problem is I have two players that really don't want to have to deal with OPTIONS. And it's a fairly high-level game (level 10). These two want a pretty much predictable routine that they can use on everything, and I'm not sure what to give them.

And I do hate to cheat my optimizers out of the puzzles and such. They really are good role-players. The rogue especially is great at RP, one of the best characterizations I've seen.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 02:55 PM
Trippers/Chargers? Point them to a blaster wizard or better yet, a warlock.

Greenish
2010-08-22, 02:57 PM
I really don't want to punish the optimizers. None of them are min-maxed really. Boosting up the non-optimizers might be the best option if I can find a polite way to do so. Part of the problem is I have two players that really don't want to have to deal with OPTIONS. And it's a fairly high-level game (level 10). These two want a pretty much predictable routine that they can use on everything, and I'm not sure what to give them.Hmm, DFI for the bard and the basic charger stuff for the barbarian?

[Edit]: Also, from both the players' and their characters' perspective it makes sense that if the party is split, both groups have a stronger PC in it, just in case.

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 03:04 PM
Hmm, DFI for the bard and the basic charger stuff for the barbarian?

[Edit]: Also, from both the players' and their characters' perspective it makes sense that if the party is split, both groups have a stronger PC in it, just in case.

DFI? The bard's the hard one really. Thankfully the optimized and the non-optimized barbarians have very different styles (TWF versus sword-and-board), so it's easier to tailor loot.

Frosty
2010-08-22, 03:04 PM
Dungeoncrasher Fighters are pretty simple. They'll just rush-rush everything. IF they'll let you re-spec for them, build them some comeptent PCs with just a few options. For the bard, he can spend all day Inspiring Courage. You just make sure the bard has all the items and feats to buff IC to the sky.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 03:08 PM
DFI - Dragonfire Inspiration

Turns your Inspire Courage into Horrible Rays of Death.

1d6 points of damage per +1 of Inspire Courage.

Essentially, Words of Creation (BoED) + Song of the Heart (ECS) + Badge of Valor (MIC) + Vest of Legends (DMG 2) to maximize the Inspire Courage boost, pick a dragon type with the Dragonfire Inspiration feat, and go to town.

Also by using the feat Lingering Song, the Inspire Courage will last for a minute.

so you start off singing Inspire Courage normally, then the next round start a new song, this time using the bonus granted by Dragonfire inspiration.

><

Only problem with that trick is, in 2 rounds, hes done, now he just hits stuff. Maybe exactly what he is looking for though.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-22, 03:09 PM
Ask the underpowered players do they feel overshadowed. If they do, tell them they can rebuild their characters if they want, and give them some tips that will let them make their characters more effective, while still being the same concept-wise.

Another problem here is that you seem to have two differently underpowered PCs. The barbarian is badly built, while the bard is badly played. The above advice is useful for both, but unless the bard's player learns at least the basics of the game, he might still end up being useless.

Greenish
2010-08-22, 03:15 PM
DFI - Dragonfire Inspiration
<…>
Only problem with that trick is, in 2 rounds, hes done, now he just hits stuff. Maybe exactly what he is looking for though.Well, he can just keep singing, maybe even pick, say, Extra Music instead of Lingering Song. Then he can just sing all the time. I'd find it boring, but if he specifically didn't want options…

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 03:16 PM
Ask the underpowered players do they feel overshadowed. If they do, tell them they can rebuild their characters if they want, and give them some tips that will let them make their characters more effective, while still being the same concept-wise.

Another problem here is that you seem to have two differently underpowered PCs. The barbarian is badly built, while the bard is badly played. The above advice is useful for both, but unless the bard's player learns at least the basics of the game, he might still end up being useless.

That might be the biggest problem. The bard's player really likes the idea of a bard, but she doesn't really want to learn the intricacies of the game. Although I might be able to fix a bit of that - anyone know any good fun spells? She doesn't like attacking, but wreaking havoc with a grease type spell seems her style.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 03:20 PM
Uh...http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010126a What? Too powerful? :smallyuk:

Improvisation (SC) is a fun spell, but requires a bit of knowledge about the Skill system.

Glitterdust of course, Glibness/Prestidigitation.

Marbles and maybe caltrops to interest them in thinks like flat footedness while making the player more aware of the benefits of certain skills?

Amplify(SpC) could be fun if they like to screw around with people/learn things as well.

Greater Blink? (SpC) gives a little night crawler like element to the bard.

Celebration (SpC), people who fail the saves get more and more intoxicated, pretty much emulating a night out on the town, and the hangover.

Cheat(SpC), only works on in game games, but is fun none the less.

Creaking Cacophony(SpC), disrupts enemy spell casters and makes enemies weak to sonic attacks.

Delusions of Grandeur (SpC). The opponent is amazing... or rather.. he THINKS he is amazing.

This list is making me wanna play a bard again.

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 03:25 PM
Uh...http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010126a What? Too powerful? :smallyuk:

Improvisation (SC) is a fun spell, but requires a bit of knowledge about the Skill system.

Glitterdust of course, Glibness/Prestidigitation.

Marbles and maybe caltrops to interest her in thinks like flat footedness while making her more aware of the benefits of certain skills?

Wrong style. She'd make a great battlefield controller with the right spell set, it seems her style.

Awnetu
2010-08-22, 03:32 PM
Alright Celebration, Creaking Cacophony are probably more in line I think?

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 06:55 PM
Chatted with one of my more experienced players just now. The biggest problem is the bard's player. She's a great role-player, but she just doesn't seem to get the system. Doesn't seem to understand what feats do, or what to do when a bonus or penalty to something gets applied. (Barbarian not as much concern because he's leaving soon.)

Anyone have any handy tips on teaching the 3.5 system to a confused player? My other players love it so I don't think we want to switch.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-22, 07:02 PM
Well... I would say just have a session where you get out the player's handbook, and sit down, and with her paying close attention, go through all the steps of creating a level 1 character that has spells that affect enemies, spells that affect themselves, some class abilities, some useful skills, and go through a sample encounter specifically designed to teach her how to use the abilities of that character. Also sit down and tell her that D&D mostly has rules for running a combat miniatures game, where characters are designed to fight enemies using class abilities and support a group which is also fighting enemies using class abilities, and just have a talk about the KINDS of things she wants to be able to do in that context, and then show her the rules (from whichever books are relevent) that would support her preferred playstyle, and just, as a group, help her build the sort of character that she wants to play, and talk about the abilities of the build... Talk about how rules mastery and making the numbers follow her idea of the character, and understanding what those numbers mean, improves the capability of having the character be able to interact with the world in the ways she imagines.

Kantolin
2010-08-22, 07:13 PM
If all she wants to do is sing, then I say let her sing! If the worry is optimization, then as the DM hand her some extremely useful things that help her sing better.

Rather than giving her dragonfire inspiration, have a plot sequence where a king, or other bard, or grateful town that's just been saved, or something. He/She/They give her an instrument (Or weapon, if she sings) which can change her song into doing +1d6 element damage. Pick the element for her or give her multiple instruments or let her pick which element it is.

Have her hang around the back. Have monsters just not attack her terribly frequently - tactics frequently can make an encounter tougher or not. She's probably not well built to be swung at, and that can be fine too - have her not be swung at often and suggest she keeps back.

Now, the barbarian is a bit tougher to do this to, but you can do similarly insofar as his inability to hit things - have him get a cookie which helps him do his job somewhat more effectively. Depending on optimization, it can give him more accuracy (Perhaps a [weapon] that gives him a very large to-hit and a smaller damage?), or make his attack touch attacks, or something. Make sure it's specialized to him - race, specific class, tribe he's from, alignment, whatever about him's different from the other barbarian. Ensure this comes up in plot.

Something like that. Not RAW, but certainly aids in fun - they may be more appreciative of this than being asked to rebuild their character when they clearly don't find it fun to do so. You can add lateral cookies later on if the others get unhappy - cookies that are neat, but provide lateral options and not more power.

WarKitty
2010-08-22, 07:32 PM
I'm getting a sort of feeling that the two non-optimized players are hanging back in combat. When your bard says "I play inspire courage the whole time, run the combat while I go get more soda," something's wrong. I'd really like all my players to be involved. We already have plenty of RP stuff, which they do enjoy, so I don't think adding more non-combat RP would be fair to my other players. I have a feeling if I could get the two of them to see combat as another chance to roleplay their characters they would be much more engaged.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-22, 08:30 PM
Give the Bard player an autoplaying instrument that automatically does their inspire courage, so they have their full level of actions available to them....

arrowhen
2010-08-23, 01:07 AM
Anyone have any handy tips on teaching the 3.5 system to a confused player?

The best way to teach a new player 3.5 is to let them start with a first-level character in a party of normal characters built with standard PHB races and classes. It might not be practical for your group, but it's the best way for a new player to learn the basics.

Throwing them into a high-level campaign with optimizers in the group is like handing someone a guitar and expecting to be a contributing member of your highly technical power-metal band when they haven't even learned their basic chords and scales yet.

Cespenar
2010-08-23, 01:22 AM
Involve the "bored with the combat" players individually to make them more interested. During combat, pick one of the enemies, customize it just a bit more (give it a name, perhaps), make it go for the bard, and do something antagonizing - taunt her, grapple/trip/disarm her, something specific to stir her up and differentiate from "I use my song the entire time" or "I attack". Do this a couple of times, then point out subtly that choosing this feat over that would help her in these kinds of situations, etc.

Also, since she doesn't seem like enjoying combat a lot, give her some extra stuff to do in combat. Perhaps she can go and pull a lever somewhere that closes the portcullis that divides the enemy ranks in two. Or she can throw a torch just in the right place to make all the barrels go boom. Think of action movies and get inspiration from how non-combatant characters make do with what they have, and apply them to your game.

Awnetu
2010-08-23, 07:55 AM
An Archrival perhaps? Nale would be a good one.:nale:

WarKitty
2010-08-23, 08:50 AM
The best way to teach a new player 3.5 is to let them start with a first-level character in a party of normal characters built with standard PHB races and classes. It might not be practical for your group, but it's the best way for a new player to learn the basics.

Throwing them into a high-level campaign with optimizers in the group is like handing someone a guitar and expecting to be a contributing member of your highly technical power-metal band when they haven't even learned their basic chords and scales yet.

None of my players are really super experienced. The high level was an unfortunate result of a switch over to 3.5 from a homebrew system. It's just sort of surprised me - most of my players took to it pretty well, it's just these two.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 09:09 AM
If the worry is optimization, then as the DM hand her some extremely useful things that help her sing better.

Now, the barbarian is a bit tougher to do this to, but you can do similarly insofar as his inability to hit things - have him get a cookie which helps him do his job somewhat more effectively.

Something like that. Not RAW, but certainly aids in fun - they may be more appreciative of this than being asked to rebuild their character when they clearly don't find it fun to do so. You can add lateral cookies later on if the others get unhappy - cookies that are neat, but provide lateral options and not more power.I feel you'd be doing a disfavour for the players doing this. It's all fine and dandy for one campaign, but if you're trying to teach them the basics of the game, just fiating their characters to be better won't help them learn anything.

bokodasu
2010-08-23, 09:25 AM
Hey, this could be me sometimes - I'm busy, I don't always have time that I want to spend learning new systems. And 3.5 is a big system and kind of intimidating.

What worked for me was when my DM broke it down and made me learn one rule at a time. I'm learning all the druid rules right now, so last session we focused on how I can (and mostly can't) use my animal companion, this session we're going to just go over all the tripping-related rules. It's not a quick-fix solution, but it is effective over time.

Pick one new thing she might like to learn to do, and just do singing + that one thing. Then next session, do singing + that one thing + one new thing. Break down any things that are really complicated into smaller component things. (e.g. "Cast spells, dammit!" isn't a thing; "cast spell x" is.)

Iferus
2010-08-23, 09:33 AM
I'd say you should give the bard player some custom magic items. A lute that allows the character to play "choruses" at the cost of an additional use of Bardic Music. Give her three choruses that last for three rounds (i.e, she has to choose the order in which to play). One can resemble Dragonfire Inspiration, another can be like Haunting Melody and the third allows her to cast a spell chosen from a limited list of spells you think she might like.

A second item she might like is an eternal wand with a custom bard spell that allows her to have two willing allies switch place. That would be great in and out of combat.

Zombieboots
2010-08-23, 10:50 AM
First thing I'd ask is: "Is this a problem" if the non-optimized players don't seem to notice or are still having fun anyway. It's not even an issue so move on.
On the other hand if it is a problem:

It is usually around that time I would ask if my non-optimized players if they wanted help, or show them some optimized options. Not so much "You should take this!" more "Hey man look what I found! I instantly thought of your character when I saw this feat."

Third thing I would do is ask the other optimized players to tone it back some. optimizing is all well and good but when it starts stomping on other peoples fun, that player should be made aware.
Other options is take your two optimized character and tell them to help out the two non-OP characters. Mentor-apprentice thing.

One way or anther this is not an in-game fix. This is a Player-to-player-to-DM issue. You should strive to find a balance.

Doug Lampert
2010-08-23, 01:40 PM
How do you build challenges for a party of wildly different optimization levels? I have a party of 6 with everything from "spends hours poring over books to build their character" to "eyes glaze over trying to pick a bonus feat out of the SRD list" to "picked combat reflexes because he thought it increased his AC." It's getting pretty hard to design encounters for them; either the optimized portion walks all over the encounter or the non-optimized members get killed.

Edit: Here's what I have

Optimized barbarian; party damage-dealer.
Optimized rogue; decent at dealing damage, great at sneaking and such Decent ranger; getting better with the addition of some to-hit bonuses
Decent sorcerer; contributes well as needed due to being a sorcerer
non-optimized bard; has not used spells to my memory
Non-optimized barbarian; can't hit anything at all

Note that you can ASK the optimized barbarian's player to not actually use such a character in play. A lot of optimizers optimize as an intellectual challenge and are perfectly willing to PLAY an unoptimized character if asked. Try that. Just ask him to build and play a standard array core only barbarian and see what he can come up with.

Since it's perfectly appropriate for the Rogue to totally dominate scouting if the Rogue is built for it and the Ranger isn't doing it if you tone down the optimized barbarian you've got 4 out of 6 well enough balanced.

The bard's the only social character, the only healer, the best buffer (inspire courage gives EVERYONE but the sorcerer +2 to all hit and damage rolls, that's huge), and she can do all of that and still plink away with a bow. She can and does contribute even if all she does is stand in the back and sing.

If she's never cast a spell have her retrain one slot per level to a cure spell and do post-combat recovery. Even if all it does is save a few charges on the magic stick of CLW it's still useful.

Use large encounters with lower level foes. Don't use 1 CR 11 foe, use 8 CR 5 foes, one of them a wizard or spell-like abilities type and one a bard or cleric or adept type, give the enemy scout a boost in spot and listen to where the rogue won't have it too easy (or just have their wizard cast Alarm a few times).

Use open terrain so everyone can fight.

That prevents even a low optimization character from being unable to hit or being one-shotted. It should be nearly impossible to build a barbarian at level 10 that can't hit a typical CR 5 foe!

The enemy casters notice that the optimized barbarian is doing all the damage and on the second round or so at least try to use glitterdust and grease on him. This may well nerf him, or he may make his saves and kill them all. But if he's nerfed the rest HAVE to pick up the slack or he has to fight with substantial disadvantages.

dsmiles
2010-08-23, 01:43 PM
First thing I'd ask is: "Is this a problem" if the non-optimized players don't seem to notice or are still having fun anyway. It's not even an issue so move on.
On the other hand if it is a problem:

It is usually around that time I would ask if my non-optimized players if they wanted help, or show them some optimized options. Not so much "You should take this!" more "Hey man look what I found! I instantly thought of your character when I saw this feat."

Third thing I would do is ask the other optimized players to tone it back some. optimizing is all well and good but when it starts stomping on other peoples fun, that player should be made aware.
Other options is take your two optimized character and tell them to help out the two non-OP characters. Mentor-apprentice thing.

One way or anther this is not an in-game fix. This is a Player-to-player-to-DM issue. You should strive to find a balance.

+1 Required characters.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 01:47 PM
First thing I'd ask is: "Is this a problem" if the non-optimized players don't seem to notice or are still having fun anyway. It's not even an issue so move on.I'll never understand why, when someone makes a post on these forums about a problem they have and ask for help, people are so keen to tell them that their problem doesn't exist.

Seriously, if it wasn't an issue, why would they come asking for help?

WarKitty
2010-08-23, 01:56 PM
(1) As a DM, I am noticing the non-optimized players are very disengaged from combat scenes. So it's clearly detracting from their enjoyment somewhere...when my players would rather go play on their phones than participate in combat, there's a problem.

(2) My optimizers are nowhere near min-maxers, so I really don't want to ask them to tone it down. They're reasonably well-built characters, but not horribly over-powered characters. The problem as far as I can see is the two characters are just bad. Like the non-optimized barbarian didn't take any combat feats at all, and the bard just doesn't make use of half her class abilities. Whereas my optimized barbarian still took all his stuff out of core (which was not required) and is outshining him.

Haarkla
2010-08-23, 02:18 PM
How do you build challenges for a party of wildly different optimization levels? I have a party of 6 with everything from "spends hours poring over books to build their character" to "eyes glaze over trying to pick a bonus feat out of the SRD list" to "picked combat reflexes because he thought it increased his AC." It's getting pretty hard to design encounters for them; either the optimized portion walks all over the encounter or the non-optimized members get killed.

Edit: Here's what I have

Optimized barbarian; party damage-dealer.
Optimized rogue; decent at dealing damage, great at sneaking and such Decent ranger; getting better with the addition of some to-hit bonuses
Decent sorcerer; contributes well as needed due to being a sorcerer
non-optimized bard; has not used spells to my memory
Non-optimized barbarian; can't hit anything at all
Give the bard a really nice bard-only magic item.

Say a magical instrument that automatically does their inspire courage, (so she has her full level of actions available to her, as Gavinfox says) and also casts Grease at will.

subject42
2010-08-23, 02:19 PM
Out of curiosity, what kind of PC were the two players trying to create? What kind of vibe did they want to give off? What kind of mark did they want to leave on the field, be it in or out of combat? What kind of mechanics do they like?

If you're willing to offer them the chance to re-build their characters, see if you can get that information and put it up on this thread. I'm sure somebody can make something that's equally simple, effective, and fun.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-23, 02:21 PM
It sounds like there is a disconnect in some of the player's minds... maybe they think that feats are basically for flavor?? FLAVOR is for flavor, changing descriptions of things, reflavoring classes, feats and such. FEATS are for enabling your class features to work better...

Have you asked each player what they want their characters to be good at?

WarKitty
2010-08-23, 04:17 PM
From what I can tell both of them prefer "comic relief" type characters. Which unfortunately doesn't seem to be meshing very well with the rest of the group. It's not exactly a high-drama campaign, but they both seem to prefer doing what's funniest at the time to doing what would be effective at the time.

Doug Lampert
2010-08-23, 04:49 PM
(1) As a DM, I am noticing the non-optimized players are very disengaged from combat scenes. So it's clearly detracting from their enjoyment somewhere...when my players would rather go play on their phones than participate in combat, there's a problem.

(2) My optimizers are nowhere near min-maxers, so I really don't want to ask them to tone it down. They're reasonably well-built characters, but not horribly over-powered characters. The problem as far as I can see is the two characters are just bad. Like the non-optimized barbarian didn't take any combat feats at all, and the bard just doesn't make use of half her class abilities. Whereas my optimized barbarian still took all his stuff out of core (which was not required) and is outshining him.


From what I can tell both of them prefer "comic relief" type characters. Which unfortunately doesn't seem to be meshing very well with the rest of the group. It's not exactly a high-drama campaign, but they both seem to prefer doing what's funniest at the time to doing what would be effective at the time.

I do think large parties work best with lots of low level foes, and I do think that will help them. But if the TWO of them don't fit the tone of the game AND are inefective AND they're unwilling to try to accomodate the game that you and the other FOUR players want then I don't see that there's anything you can do to fix this without changing someone's attitude or kicking someone out of the group.

A Barbarian with no combat feats is STILL potentially an effective damage dealer. If he's not showing as at least minimally competent compared to a not fully optimized core only barbarian then he's deliberately sabotaging your game.

This isn't different levels of optimizing, this is deliberate non-optimizing and non-playing of the game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html).

Why invite someone over every week to deliberately sabotage your game and five out of seven people's fun?

Why do they come if they're just going to talk on the phone and eat?

Are you married to one of them? To be honest, in the unlikely event that my wife pulled the level of crap you seem to be suggesting I think I'd ask her to leave the game.

It's just not that hard to find players. Tell them they can rebuild their characters, but that if they don't pay attention and contribute at least minimally effectively they're out of the group for the rest of this campaign, and you'll call them and offer to let them back in if and when you're playing something simpler and more to their taste.

As far as I'm concerned there is no mystical glow over any character that tell everyone that he's a PC. If the other PCs wouldn't drag along a random level 1 commoner who doesn't contribute and wants a full share of the loot why should they drag these characters along and give them shares of the loot?

Kamai
2010-08-23, 05:03 PM
From what I can tell both of them prefer "comic relief" type characters. Which unfortunately doesn't seem to be meshing very well with the rest of the group. It's not exactly a high-drama campaign, but they both seem to prefer doing what's funniest at the time to doing what would be effective at the time.

Maybe there's a way you can take that tendency, and make it useful. Starting with the Bard, they have access to a lot of illusions that can let them screw with things, and still be funny about it, and in fact works well as the prankster-type. Maybe you could try to encourage that player to make use of those kind of tricks, and thus be more useful for the party?

The barbarian is a little tougher, but grapple and bull rush with an appropriate set-up can lead to some slapstick type humor, while keeping the barbarian at least useful. For example, the optimized barbarian might be tearing through the ranks, while the other barbarian is getting laughs out of making one of your bad guys punch themselves (and keeping a dangerous non-melee opponent out of the battle). Just in general, see if you can use the comic relief tendency to get things done.

WarKitty
2010-08-23, 05:22 PM
I do think large parties work best with lots of low level foes, and I do think that will help them. But if the TWO of them don't fit the tone of the game AND are inefective AND they're unwilling to try to accomodate the game that you and the other FOUR players want then I don't see that there's anything you can do to fix this without changing someone's attitude or kicking someone out of the group.

A Barbarian with no combat feats is STILL potentially an effective damage dealer. If he's not showing as at least minimally competent compared to a not fully optimized core only barbarian then he's deliberately sabotaging your game.

This isn't different levels of optimizing, this is deliberate non-optimizing and non-playing of the game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html).

Why invite someone over every week to deliberately sabotage your game and five out of seven people's fun?

Why do they come if they're just going to talk on the phone and eat?

Are you married to one of them? To be honest, in the unlikely event that my wife pulled the level of crap you seem to be suggesting I think I'd ask her to leave the game.

It's just not that hard to find players. Tell them they can rebuild their characters, but that if they don't pay attention and contribute at least minimally effectively they're out of the group for the rest of this campaign, and you'll call them and offer to let them back in if and when you're playing something simpler and more to their taste.

As far as I'm concerned there is no mystical glow over any character that tell everyone that he's a PC. If the other PCs wouldn't drag along a random level 1 commoner who doesn't contribute and wants a full share of the loot why should they drag these characters along and give them shares of the loot?

Just so we're clear it's a set group. We're working out of a group of friends that generally like to play roleplaying games. Kicking a player out or inviting in a player that wasn't known to anyone in the group just wouldn't work. And we do like having them around, having them in non-combat parts of the game, etc. The bard in particular is great fun when we're mucking around in the city doing our shopping. They're not particularly disruptive thankfully, just ineffective...basically they join in on the non-combat bits and goof off on their phones during the combats. I think overall asking either or both of them to leave would put far, far more of a damper on things than letting the game run as it is now.

Jolly
2010-08-23, 05:45 PM
That is an unfortunate scenario, even without the social implications of a group of friends.

If the optimized players don't mind them playing with their phones etc during combat, the non-optimized are only hurting themselves. Tell them "I can show you how this all works so you won't spend so much time bored" and if they still won't, well... You can't force someone to have fun when they deliberately chose ignorance and apathy.

If their disinterest is making it less fun for all, approach them in that way. "I know the combat and mechanics are not really your thing, but when you zone out it makes it less fun for everyone. Let me show you the basics, and we can figure out a way to make it better for everyone." If they don't respond to such a request, that is a social issue not related to the game.

Especially for the bard, there are a lot of tricks and spells that can create humorous situations without a drastic rule shift. Or have her play an Illusionist with ranks in Perform. ;)

Good luck with however you choose to address the issue. :)

GameSpawn
2010-08-23, 09:20 PM
I know some people mentioned splitting the party, but it didn't work because the group didn't split along effectiveness lines. You could try forcibly splitting them with traps or other effects where they don't get to choose who's where. The DMG2 has a trap called Seperation Wall Trap, that pretty much does exactly what it sounds like; it separates the party.

Also, depending on what the non-optimizers did, you could design combat encounters that are aided by that ability. If one character has mobility skills (balance, climb, jump, swim, even tumble), you could easily put a squishy blaster or archer in a place only they can get to. If one of them knows a bunch of languages, you can have a mastermind giving orders in some obscure tongue. If the rogue and barbarian optimized based on weapons, you could throw them into a situation where they don't have them to even things out.

The best solution, though, might be to intermingle role playing with combat. Have them lead prisoners out or solve a puzzle during a fight. Have enemies they don't want to kill out right, so that the players can end the fight through non-combat skills/role playing, but still need to use some combat abilities. Related to this is giving the players an in character reason to care about specific abilities (and not just combat in general), like with Elan/Therkla/Neutralize poison. From what you've said, this might make the non-optimizers more involved in combat.

I don't know how appropriate any of this advice is to your players specifically, but I hope it helps.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-23, 11:30 PM
More roleplaying during combat can also be encouraged by giving her a personal nemesis. Make sure there's a recurring character that shows up over and over that specifically interacts with the bard when fighting, for instance. Giving her a personal foil will draw her into the combat considerably more.

Have this character engineer situations where the bard alone gets separated and has to fight on her own, so they can't just curbstomp the NPC together. But don't make it an evil 'I want to kill you' villain, make it someone who can defeat her and leave her alive for next time. A dashing criminal that, for whatever reason, wants to push and test the bard character time and again, but specifically doesn't want her dead.

And since you say these players like amusing things, throw in some comedy. Make the concept more like the funnier scenes in movies, where what's going on is serious, but it's funny too.

devinkowalczyk
2010-08-23, 11:40 PM
cleric?/healer?

WarKitty
2010-08-23, 11:42 PM
cleric?/healer?

The bard actually does have some healing magic items, which she uses after combat to heal the party up.

Also I need to go bug my players about sending in their sheets, they never do.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-24, 12:22 AM
From what I can tell both of them prefer "comic relief" type characters. Which unfortunately doesn't seem to be meshing very well with the rest of the group. It's not exactly a high-drama campaign, but they both seem to prefer doing what's funniest at the time to doing what would be effective at the time.

Try to get them to mix it up. Humor works best when either unexpected, or it has a cooperative straight man to work with.

Comedy relief is great, but it doesn't need to preclude being generally useful.

Haarkla
2010-08-24, 06:37 AM
It sounds like there is a disconnect in some of the player's minds... maybe they think that feats are basically for flavor?? FLAVOR is for flavor, changing descriptions of things, reflavoring classes, feats and such. FEATS are for enabling your class features to work better...

You are wrong, at least for us real roleplayers.

I always like to take Self-sufficient and Iron Will for example.

Tyger
2010-08-24, 06:55 AM
The posters above that talked about intermixing the RP in with the combat have echoed what I was going to suggest.

Some people play games to smash things into little squirming pieces and take their stuff. Others play the game to immerse themselves in a world and act out fantasies. Still others play for the sheer love of the numbers. A lot of people play for all these reasons (none of them are mutually exclusive after all) and thanks to the little gaming gods for those!

Have you tried making your combats more narrative? More intellectually or tactically challenging? Maybe including more RP elements into the combats themselves, with people offering and demanding surrenders? Do your combats degenerate (as many do) into "I rolled 20 to hit, and 18 to damage." , "Its dead, next enemy" or are they descriptive and narrative accounts of what each player and monster is doing? Not to suggest that one is better than the other (though you can certainly see my bias there!) but the latter sort of style may be more appealing to your bard's player, if not your weak barbarian's.

In every situation like this, its just a matter of finding the players' currency and then providing that. I wouldn't agree with many of the posters here that making the bard more mechanically effective is a good idea - she isn't playing a mechanical game, so making her more mechanically powerful isn't going to change her involvement in the game. Sure, she's going to have a better Inspire Courage, but she's still going to be doing it from the kitchen while she gets a soda.

Instead, find out what makes her tick, try different things. And don't be afraid to just sit her down and say "Hey, I notice you don't seem to be very interested in the combat part of the game, and its a pretty significant part here. What's up? What can we do to help everyone have a better time during all parts of the game?" Note the "we" there? It lets her know that you consider this an issue, but also lets her know that addressing the issue will be a collaborative issue. You aren't going to solve this alone, you need her involvement.

The weak barbarian on the other hand does sound like a largely mechanical thing, and he would very likely benefit from some build and tactic advice. We had one of these in our group as well, getting more and more frustrated as combats devolved (and he was playing a Crusader, so not a weak class) into him not doing much. But some well intentioned advice, both at the table and away from it, and he is now an effective warrior, and is also enjoying the game a lot more.

You have to suit the remedy to the individual and to that individual's interests. And that is not easy. Good luck.

Emmerask
2010-08-24, 06:58 AM
How do you build challenges for a party of wildly different optimization levels? I have a party of 6 with everything from "spends hours poring over books to build their character" to "eyes glaze over trying to pick a bonus feat out of the SRD list" to "picked combat reflexes because he thought it increased his AC." It's getting pretty hard to design encounters for them; either the optimized portion walks all over the encounter or the non-optimized members get killed.

Edit: Here's what I have

Optimized barbarian; party damage-dealer.
Optimized rogue; decent at dealing damage, great at sneaking and such Decent ranger; getting better with the addition of some to-hit bonuses
Decent sorcerer; contributes well as needed due to being a sorcerer
non-optimized bard; has not used spells to my memory
Non-optimized barbarian; can't hit anything at all

-create mainly large number encounters, one or two hard enemies with 10 or so easy ones.
If the optimized characters go for the speed bumps first the "boss" will have enough time to setup a tpk (make him sufficiently powerful).

-as already mentioned create encounters where certain abilities are useful

-I wouldn´t do the party split too often it kind of feels wrong to play a game together and every second combat you have to split up ^^

subject42
2010-08-24, 07:21 AM
Maybe there's a way you can take that tendency, and make it useful. Starting with the Bard, they have access to a lot of illusions that can let them screw with things, and still be funny about it, and in fact works well as the prankster-type. Maybe you could try to encourage that player to make use of those kind of tricks, and thus be more useful for the party?

The barbarian is a little tougher, but grapple and bull rush with an appropriate set-up can lead to some slapstick type humor, while keeping the barbarian at least useful. For example, the optimized barbarian might be tearing through the ranks, while the other barbarian is getting laughs out of making one of your bad guys punch themselves (and keeping a dangerous non-melee opponent out of the battle). Just in general, see if you can use the comic relief tendency to get things done.


These are both great ideas. If you're willing to import stuff from the Pathfinder Advanced Player's guide, there's a combat maneuver called "Dirty Trick" that would also work well to represent the absurdities they're trying to pull off.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/gamemastering---final/combat---final#TOC-Dirty-Trick

Mongoose87
2010-08-24, 08:00 AM
You are wrong, at least for us real roleplayers.

I always like to take Self-sufficient and Iron Will for example.

This is going to be total Stormwind bait.

WarKitty
2010-08-24, 08:20 AM
This is going to be total Stormwind bait.

Ironically for the stormwinders, these two are also the worst roleplayers in the group. Well...the bard is ok at it as long as we're not in combat. The barbarian tends to "roleplay" chaotic stupid. Whereas my rogue is one of the most in-depth characters I've ever seen.

Quietus
2010-08-24, 10:14 AM
You are wrong, at least for us real roleplayers.

I always like to take Self-sufficient and Iron Will for example.

Did... did you really just say that? Can your character not be self sufficient without having the feat? Does he really need Iron Will to represent his steely resolve? Why not, for instance, if you've got a con mod higher than your wis mod, pick up Endurance and Steadfast Determination instead? You can still take ranks in Survival and Heal, thereby being self-sufficient, but now you also have the hardiness of someone used to living a tough life where they have to rely on themselves to survive (endurance's bonuses to long-term saves, and the ability to sleep in heavier armor), combined with a steely resolve bolstered by your knowledge that you are, in fact, capable of simply "taking it" and moving forward anyway, with Steadfast Determination boosting your Will save. Much more optimal, exact same flavor, and just as valid roleplaying.

WarKitty
2010-08-24, 10:21 AM
For future campaigns I need to set out the power level beforehand. The way I play, you can survive without completely min-maxing. However, if you build a bad character don't expect the punches to be pulled (I've been pulling this time because I have newbies). If your fighter has lousy strength, don't expect the monsters AC to be lowered so you can hit them. If you don't take combat feats as a combat-based character, you will be weaker than the standard character of your class and level, and the difference will not be made up by the DM. If you can make the character work, good for you. With my group I usually have bigger problems with "This character makes no sense and would never survive" than "I want to min-max everything and forget a believable character." You can take flavor feats, but don't expect the world to become easier because you did. Otherwise there would be no point in making a character that overcomes difficulties, would there now?

The Glyphstone
2010-08-24, 10:22 AM
You are wrong, at least for us real roleplayers.

I always like to take Self-sufficient and Iron Will for example.

You did forget the [/Sarcasm] tags here, right? Cause otherwise I'm totally confused.