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Arillius
2010-08-22, 02:48 PM
My DM recently allowed a few themes from the pathfinder Advanced players guide, and I'm interested at looking at the Zen archer monk.

My question is, is the bonus for the flurry of blows with a bow better then the bonus one might get from rapid shot with a bow? I believe it uses the same bonuses as a flurry of blows used on the table in the PH, and you can add to it by dipping into your ki pool like a regular flurry of blows.

Also, in general, whats a good AC for an archer?

Eldariel
2010-08-22, 03:22 PM
I don't have the Advanced Player's Guide yet but I can tell you that AC isn't all that important on archers, at least as long as you stick away. If you do invest in AC (e.g. your party lacks someone competent with a reach weapon to hold enemies away or expect lots of archer adversaries, or cramped quarter sneak attacks or tunneling enemies or such; in general, you're less likely to get hit than a fighter but as you lack magic to elude people, you're still pretty high up there), you need to keep it to the normal Fighter-levels tho.

AC = "Level + 20" is a good aim, though really the growth curve is a bit steeper than that; on level 1, you'll hardly have over 18 AC without work or shield (many have 15 or 16) and on level 20, you'll want more than 40 if you want for it to have a notable impact. Still, it's a good general guideline (though don't worry if you lag behind it a bit).

Arillius
2010-08-22, 04:06 PM
Level 20 isn't an issue, this a campaign that's going to be years in the playing and the highest level we might reach is 14th. For us its more about the story.

Right now the build I got for him will give him 18 AC at level 3, unarmored, with the monk bonus being the only progression he's really going to see for it.

And I'm still wondering if the rapid shot is worth it, or if flurry of blows makes it a useless feat.

Eldariel
2010-08-22, 04:21 PM
Level 20 isn't an issue, this a campaign that's going to be years in the playing and the highest level we might reach is 14th. For us its more about the story.

That's cool but I wasn't talking about level 20, I was talking about the scaling of attack bonus (and consequently, what AC you want): It scales a bit faster than 20+level, but starts off a bit below. You can figure what AC is "good" for avoiding opponents' hits from that for every level. Realistically, it starts from ~15 and scales to ~45-50 and levels fall to the straight line you'd draw between those.


Right now the build I got for him will give him 18 AC at level 3, unarmored, with the monk bonus being the only progression he's really going to see for it.

Bracers of Armor (or Mage Armor from a friendly mage), Ring of Protection, Dex & Wis-boosters, etc. You should see plenty of boosts.


And I'm still wondering if the rapid shot is worth it, or if flurry of blows makes it a useless feat.

You can't combine them. If I'm not missing something, Flurry simply gives you better BAB and more attacks than you'd get otherwise so you should use it all the time and as such, anything that doesn't work with it is useless. Tho Manyshot has its uses, of course.

Rad
2010-08-22, 04:28 PM
with few exceptions AC is made of magic items. It is IMHO maybe the most blatant mechanical hole in the system if you want to run a magic-poor environment (weapon damage a close second). As such, you will never see a character's AC from the build itself until you see the equipment, which makes it a problem in the building process itself.
Also, it is hard to tell what a "reasonable" AC is for a given level because that number is going to be very different from group to group according to that campaign's style: kind of enemies met, item availability and such.

Arillius
2010-08-22, 06:14 PM
I can tell you now that magic items are going to be scarce. The dm feels that giving them out cheapens the value of the magic items. When he does give them though, hooboy are the epic.

They aren't the typical items either, though they show up every once in a while, and sometimes they aren't your typical magic item. For instance my cleric, the evil guy who the group killed off for being a bit to evil to the wrong people (them), had a group of 6 undead who followed him around, all intelligent and all badass, with some fey magic they could do at will. At level 3.

In the last campaign, the bard had a bow that did some insane effects on a crit.

So the build is the big thing to focus on.

Eldariel
2010-08-22, 06:46 PM
I can tell you now that magic items are going to be scarce. The dm feels that giving them out cheapens the value of the magic items. When he does give them though, hooboy are the epic.

They aren't the typical items either, though they show up every once in a while, and sometimes they aren't your typical magic item. For instance my cleric, the evil guy who the group killed off for being a bit to evil to the wrong people (them), had a group of 6 undead who followed him around, all intelligent and all badass, with some fey magic they could do at will. At level 3.

In the last campaign, the bard had a bow that did some insane effects on a crit.

So the build is the big thing to focus on.

Well, then you won't have AC. Only spellcasters are capable of getting AC without magic items. You'll cap out at ~20 or so. Better just get really good at staying hidden, sniping, and using range, surprise and terrain to avoid chances of getting hit in the first place.

Rad
2010-08-22, 07:10 PM
I can tell you now that magic items are going to be scarce. The dm feels that giving them out cheapens the value of the magic items.
as I pointed out, AC comes from items. If you opened a monster manual you will have noticed that almost all monsters have a natural armor bonus that can be as much as four times the one given by full plate armor, or more. They do not usually have items and so needed some other source of AC (a particularly distasteful solution by the 3.0 designers IMHO).
Nothing in the "build" will give you AC except for minor bonuses that will be much smaller than the increases in AB of your enemies. No matter what you do, your AC will not be a good line of defence as soon as level 5 or so.
To balance that I suggest to adopt some sort of "defence bonus" as a house rule, where the various classes get a bonus to AC that scales with level. Barring that, all attacks will practically always hit, which means that the only defences possible against a physical attack are having a million HP or not being the target of an attack in the first place.

So my practical advice for your build is the same as Eldariel: ignore AC as it will never be good enough. Instead, plan your defences so that you are not attacked in the first place. Hiding/invisibility, flight, rapid movement/teleportation,... that kind of things.

Arillius
2010-08-23, 04:25 PM
Alright, another question then is how useful quick draw would be for an archer. Note that I ask all these questions since this is my first, and only really, campaign and this will be only my second character, last was a cleric, so I'm don't have the expirience to make some judgment calls.

tyckspoon
2010-08-23, 04:30 PM
Alright, another question then is how useful quick draw would be for an archer. Note that I ask all these questions since this is my first, and only really, campaign and this will be only my second character, last was a cleric, so I'm don't have the expirience to make some judgment calls.

Bows are a free action to reload anyway (or, rather, the ammunition is drawn and fitted as part of the attack action used to fire it). Quick Draw is pretty pointless for archery builds, unless you plan to be switching between ranged and melee a lot (and even then, you can just have Unarmed Strikes or wear a spiked gauntlet or something.)

Arillius
2010-08-23, 04:42 PM
I figured it might be useful for those times when an opponent has reach. Thanks to the zen archer gaining point blank master, the only time I'll be taking AoO's is drawing the weapon.

So what would a be a more useful feat for archers in general? Third level character who has Point blank Shot, Precise shot, and Deadly Aim, with no need for rapid shot thanks to flurry of blows.

tyckspoon
2010-08-23, 04:59 PM
eh.. Weapon Focus, Dodge.. *shrug* There aren't a ton of good options in Pathfinder core, and you've already got the important ones. Maybe Extra Ki, but if the variant gets it at the same time the regular Monk does you don't actually qualify for it yet. Might be something else good buried in the Advanced Player's Guide, I haven't had a chance to look through it yet. I'd probably go with Improved Initiative, 'cause I like going first.. but you can take just about anything you feel like and it won't make a big difference unless you can choose from more than just the Pathfinder sources.

Arillius
2010-08-23, 05:09 PM
Nah, its just Pathfinder. Weapon focus and Weapon specialization are offered as another class feature feat.