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Torq
2010-08-22, 02:48 PM
I've finally got a chance to play my first full arcane caster. I've run a few as NPCs as a DM, but never put special thought into it as I would with a PC.

While just being a Wizard pretty much makes your PC optimized, I was hoping some folks with experience could help with a few things that they've found helpful (or not) in campaigns. I don't feel particularly bad about trying to uber-optimize either as I'm going to be in a party with three other players that have minimal experience so I'll likely be "carrying" the party. It's going to be a traditional party of four (arcane caster, divine caster, meat shield, skill monkey)

We're likely starting at 1st level so what I'm worried about now is the ACFs and race. I'll either take Human for a feat or Grey Elf (if it's allowed) for the bow proficiency so I can fill bad guys with arrows while they're stuck in my grease/web/etc. It's 32 point buy and I'll make Int 18 (which will be even better if I can be an elf).

I'm almost definitely going with focused specialist (conj.)

I'm definitely giving up my familiar so the ACFs I'm struggling with are whether to take Abrupt Jaunt or Rapid Summoning - mostly because I haven't decided if I really want to be a dedicated summoner or not. Is Rapid Summoning valuable even if you're only using half or less of your slots for summon spells?

Also, I don't know if I want to give up Scribe Scroll for Augment Summoning or not. As a Focused Specialist, I can see myself wanting to scribe a few of my non-conjuration spells since I'll only have 1 or two slots for those in early levels. I'll be going Master Specialist at 4th so I don't have to consider the 5th and 10th level abilities from Enhanced summoning.

I'll take a flaw first level (noncombatant) so I'll have 2 feats minimum (three if human). One will be Spell Focus (conjuration) for prerequisites. If I decide not to give up Scribe Scroll, is Augment summoning worth taking as a feat?

Something else I was considering was taking the Spellgifted trait. My question on that is, as long as there's no duration or dmg/CL, can you still cast a first level spell (Color Spray, for example)?

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Any thoughts from experienced arcane caster players would be much appreciated.

Frosty
2010-08-22, 02:50 PM
Before we go further, let us ask you this: Are you planning on taking Malconvoker (PrC from C. Scoundrel)?

Private-Prinny
2010-08-22, 02:57 PM
For ACFs giving up Familiar/Scribe Scroll, the standard procedure is to either grab Rapid/Enhanced Summoning and become a Malconvoker, or grab Abrupt Jaunt/Improved Initiative and become a battlefield control specialist.

And about Spellgifted, it simply changes all of the attributes that key off of caster level. If there are none, then the spell is unaffected. For a school as broad as Conjuration, it doesn't seem like a bad option.

Torq
2010-08-22, 04:18 PM
Before we go further, let us ask you this: Are you planning on taking Malconvoker (PrC from C. Scoundrel)?

It is at the top of the list of PrCs after I'm done with Master Specialist. I suppose I'm looking for advice on whether or not to play a focused summoner or not. If so, then Malconvoker is a definite.


For ACFs giving up Familiar/Scribe Scroll, the standard procedure is to either grab Rapid/Enhanced Summoning and become a Malconvoker, or grab Abrupt Jaunt/Improved Initiative and become a battlefield control specialist.


I'll probably go with this combo if I don't go with summoner. The only thing I worry about with summoner.



And about Spellgifted, it simply changes all of the attributes that key off of caster level. If there are none, then the spell is unaffected. For a school as broad as Conjuration, it doesn't seem like a bad option.

Thanks for clarifying. I'll probably go with it then. I'll make the cleric cast Bull's Strength so that it possibly last through more than one encounter.

Frosty
2010-08-22, 04:42 PM
A focused summoner can be extremely good, and Malconvoker is a PrC that tkaes your summoning to 11, even though it loses you one caster level. It's that awesome. Summoning is versatile because you can decide WHAT you want to summon when you cast it. LOTs of different monsters with different SLAs to do what you need them to do, so you don't have to prep those spells yourself as much.

If you do go with a summoner, I'd advise against taking all levels of Master Specialist. You really want to be able to take either all 9 levels of Malconvoker or 8 level of it. Planar Binding a Pit Fiend, anyone? Conjurer Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4/Malconvoker 8 or 9 then finish off with a few more levels of Master Specialist to get to Moderate Esotera...or finish off with levels in Archmage. You've already got Skill Focus (Spell Craft) and Spell Focus (Conjuration), so all you need is Spell Focus in one more school (I'd recommend Necromancy or Enchantment) and you've got what you need.

Torq
2010-08-22, 04:53 PM
If you do go with a summoner, I'd advise against taking all levels of Master Specialist. You really want to be able to take either all 9 levels of Malconvoker or 8 level of it. Planar Binding a Pit Fiend, anyone? Conjurer Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4/Malconvoker 8 or 9 then finish off with a few more levels of Master Specialist to get to Moderate Esotera...or finish off with levels in Archmage. You've already got Skill Focus (Spell Craft) and Spell Focus (Conjuration), so all you need is Spell Focus in one more school (I'd recommend Necromancy or Enchantment) and you've got what you need.

The absolute soonest I could take levels in Malconvoker is ECL 6, so why not Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2, then Malconvoker? Did you grab the extra two levels of Master Specialist for Minor Esoterica? Is it that good?

Frosty
2010-08-22, 05:05 PM
Matter of taste really. Going MS 2 is definitely an option if you want the benefits of Malconvoker as soon as possible.

Torq
2010-08-22, 05:25 PM
Ok, I've been reading the Malconvoker's Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) and it mentions fortifying Magic Circle Against Evil with Spellcraft. Can someone explain this to me?

Also, it looks like the only benefit I get from taking Malconvoker at 6 is double duration on evil creatures summoned. Worth it?

ETA: If I don't go full-on summoner, and focus on battlefield control spells, are there any good PrCs anyone can think of right off hand? Just continue with Master Specialist?

Private-Prinny
2010-08-22, 06:00 PM
Frosty hit the nail on the head with the PrC options for a Malconvoker, but I'm personally a fan of tossing four levels of Fatespinner into the build.

For a BFC expert, PrCs become less of an issue, but other selections become more important. Sculpt Spell is a godsend, and Metamagic School Focus (Conj) means you can Sculpt 3 spells a day for free. On a Focused Specialist, the Spellpool ability of Mage of the Arcane Order is quite good, since you can leave a Conjuration-only slot empty and use it as raw fuel for the Spellpool, allowing you to take a spell from any school with your specialist slot. Spellpool also allows you to grab spells from your banned schools, so you'd probably want to grab at least 4-5 levels.

Wonton
2010-08-22, 06:18 PM
Spellpool also allows you to grab spells from your banned schools, so you'd probably want to grab at least 4-5 levels.

Just out of curiousity, where are you getting this from? :smallconfused:
The PHB says "Spells of the prohibited or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands." It's frustratingly vague, but "not available to the wizard" makes it seem like they can't cast from prohibited schools, ever.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-22, 06:32 PM
The only restriction on the spells that you can call, according to the sidebar, are


It must be from the Sorc/Wiz list
You can call (1/2 CL) Spell Levels per day
You have to be able to cast spells of the level of the called spell


The normal issue for Wizards and banned schools is that the spells just aren't on their class spell list. With the Spellpool, you aren't using your class spell list, and are instead opting for the Sorc/Wiz list, which includes your banned schools.

Wonton
2010-08-22, 06:37 PM
Thing is, when you "call" a spell, you call it into your memory, and then you have to cast it thereafter. From what I know, a Specialist Wizard simply can't cast spells from his barred schools (even if he somehow managed to get one into his head).

Private-Prinny
2010-08-22, 06:49 PM
Actually, it says the spells aren't available, and says you can't cast them from scrolls as an example, leading to the conclusion that they just aren't on your class list. You could still, for example, UMD a scroll from your banned school. Since you aren't using your class list, that stops being a problem.

If a Wu Jen took levels in MotAO, for example, they would be able to call spells exclusive to Sorcerers and Wizards, because they are using the full Sorc/Wiz list instead of their selection of Wu Jen spells.

NekoJoker
2010-08-22, 07:30 PM
Well....this will certainly require A LOT of trouble for you since it means to talk to your DM to change a few important things, but I have a soft spot for the Demonologist PrC from BoED

Iit lets you use the Summon Monster spells as if they were +1+2 or +3 versions of it (namely, you are spending a 1st level spell slot to get a 4th version of the same spell)

Problem here is... the PrC SUCKS if you play as written, it has spells known and castable as a sorcerer and limited specifically up to 4th level and the Casting stat keys off from CHA...

Yeah, you may be wondering why on earth am I suggesting this, but having the posibility of using higher versions of a spell while spending your lowest spell slots is a great deal... then again you will have to change the whole thing to a standard +1 to casting class progression and key the whole thing off Int.

If you can pull this stunt then you'll be the greatest summoner ever created.

Once again... lots of work on rebuilding a sucky PrC that could have been awesome

Torq
2010-08-22, 08:26 PM
Once again... lots of work on rebuilding a sucky PrC that could have been awesome

The feat requirement is a bit steep it seems like, and re-writing the PrC doesn't really appeal to me. Not to mention that it's CE and even if that were changed, the flavor of the class is still evil.

The background of the campaign is a slave uprising starting with our motley group of adventurers trying to escape from our evil captors. While I think I can write a background to support a Malconvoker, I'm not sure if I could pull it off for the Demonologist.

Torq
2010-09-02, 10:34 AM
We still haven't played so I still have time to think about the build.

Since I'm not sure how long this campaign is going to go on, I'm not going to assume that I'll be able to take enough level of Malconvoker to make it worthwhile.

If I'm not a dedicated summoner, I wonder how effective the Esoterica from Master Specialist will be for a conjurer. I'm probably going to lean towards battlefield control, but I wonder if anyone has had success with using summoned monsters for BFC. I'm thinking cloudy conjuration+summoned monster adjacent to bad guy would be effective but, like I said, I have minimal experience with arcane casters. Does anyone have any thoughts on tactics that involve some summoning along with various AoE clouds?

If only 25% of my spells are going to be summons, is the Esoterica worth it? And what about the rapid summoning ACF? If not, I'll probably only do Master Specialist for the first three levels and move on to something else.

hotel_papa
2010-09-02, 11:01 AM
I'm also a big fan of dipping one level for Paragnostic Apostle, to get fast healing for your summons.

Keld Denar
2010-09-02, 11:14 AM
I play a FS Conjourer of the BF Control variety. Its pretty awesome. One thing that I'd suggest, thats REALLY easy to do, is a 1 level dip in Wayfairer Guide. Its only 3 levels long, but the 2nd level loses a CL, which sucks. The first level, though, essentially gives you a +3 CL when casting spells from the Teleport Subschool. This can be important when you first get access to Dim Door and want to bring more friends with you, but you just aren't powerful enough. The prereqs are REALLY easy, especially with your Int score and all Knowledges as class skills.

Other than that, my guy has 2 levels in Divine Oracle (because Commune is smexy, and Evasion is useful), 3 levels in Loremaster (because if you qualify for DO, you pretty much qualify for LM), 4 levels in Master Specialist, 1 level in Wayfairer Guide, and just took his first level in Archmage. Doing pretty well. In the fight he's currently in, used a Dimension Step (PHBII) and a Quickened Benign Transpostion to move an ally who was almost dead out of Line of Sight so he can take a round to recover, while still leaving myself in a position where I can continue to rake the battlefield with Freezing Fogs, EBTs, Glitterdusts, Illusory Pits, Waves of Exhaustions, and other potent area control spells.

I banned Abjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment. I kinda miss Anticipate Teleport, but with as much battlefield teleportation as I do, I wouldn't want to catch my own allies with it.

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-02, 11:23 AM
Summons are great BFC so long as you remember one thing. Summons are great for grabing people and holding them down. I have seen a bear pull somebody down out of flight by being summoned above the foe.

Remeber that melee summons are three catagories
striker - like a tiger
charger - like a rino
grappler - like the spiders

Keld Denar
2010-09-02, 11:53 AM
Level for level, monsterous centipedes tend to be larger than any other summon type, and thus make the best grapplers simply because the size bonuses for huge and gargantuan are so gigantic. Sandstorm has some nice spells for summoning templated centipedes with even more Str than the fiendish variety you get with standard summons. I think the template is Dustform or something like that.

Also, air elementals in vortex form (and water elementals in vortex form while in the water) are pretty amazing at locking down melee foes. Ref saves tend to go down (relatively) as CR goes up, so summoning a huge or larger air elemental can disable some large monsters quite nicely.

unimaginable
2010-09-02, 11:59 AM
While just being a Wizard pretty much makes your PC optimized, I was hoping some folks with experience could help with a few things that they've found helpful (or not) in campaigns. I don't feel particularly bad about trying to uber-optimize either as I'm going to be in a party with three other players that have minimal experience so I'll likely be "carrying" the party.

Worst. Logic. Ever.

Seriously, wtf? The rest of the group is going to be mucking about and figuring things out, and your solution to balancing that is to go to extreme lengths to outshine them and make them all feel worthless by comparison? Brilliant.

What you're ACTUALLY supposed to do in a situation like that is to go to extreme lengths with flavour and originality, show them how cool a character can be if you think outside the box of how the classes were written to be played, without being too mechanically overpowered, so that they each get to feel powerful and useful in their own way.

Generally speaking, you want games to be relatively consistent in terms of power scale. This is relatively easy for a skilled DM to accomplish... if the PCs are optimized, optimize the encounters; if the PCs are weak, scale down the encounters. If one PC is way stronger than the others, this becomes almost impossible to do. Your approach is basically the worst possible thing you could do for game balance.

Keld Denar
2010-09-02, 12:09 PM
You don't understand the premise behind the GOD wizard, do you? The key is to do all the work WITHOUT making it look like you are doing all the work. Say you are fighting two bad guys. You cast a Solid Fog (quintessential Conjouration BC spell) and muck up one guy for 3ish rounds. Your party then beats on the other guy, assisted by a Haste spell from you. When the 2nd bad guy emerges from the fog, he'll step into the open arms of the party waiting to harvest him for his XPs. Without the help of the wizard, the other PCs might split damage (causing the fight to last longer and be more dangerous), or simply get beat on by the 2nd foe you eliminated.

Now, you haven't done a single point of damage, so the rest of the party thinks they have all the glory, but you know that without you, the'd be monster bait lying face down in a pool of their own blood.

Thats the glory of battlefield control. Its more effective than blasting or SoD spamming, yet less flashy and attention grabbing. You are the enabler, the prime mover, yet you are acting in an almost behind-the-scenes fashion that doesn't threaten anyone else's fun.

Make sense?

EDIT:
What you're ACTUALLY supposed to do in a situation like that is to go to extreme lengths with flavour and originality, show them how cool a character can be if you think outside the box of how the classes were written to be played, without being too mechanically overpowered, so that they each get to feel powerful and useful in their own way.

You seem to think that the two are mutually exclusive?

Torq
2010-09-02, 12:32 PM
Worst. Logic. Ever.

Seriously, wtf? The rest of the group is going to be mucking about and figuring things out, and your solution to balancing that is to go to extreme lengths to outshine them and make them all feel worthless by comparison? Brilliant.

What you're ACTUALLY supposed to do in a situation like that is to go to extreme lengths with flavour and originality, show them how cool a character can be if you think outside the box of how the classes were written to be played, without being too mechanically overpowered, so that they each get to feel powerful and useful in their own way.


The DM has run this campaign with a separate group and said that they had a really tough time with the encounters. He was happy with the idea of me doing a little optimization (and helping the other players make their PCs not suck). Obviously, God will be more powerful than the rest of the party, but...


You don't understand the premise behind the GOD wizard, do you? The key is to do all the work WITHOUT making it look like you are doing all the work.

Now, you haven't done a single point of damage, so the rest of the party thinks they have all the glory, but you know that without you, the'd be monster bait lying face down in a pool of their own blood.


^^^this^^^

I don't plan on casting a singe spell that affects the bad guy's HP. Once I've cast some BFC spells, I might throw a dart or two at them, which will be completely overshadowed by the axe-swinging and back-stabbing.

Essentially, my goal is to keep the party alive through low levels until they've got a feel for their characters. Then I'll continue to keep them alive because that's what God does. Brilliant.

Powerfamiliar
2010-09-02, 12:36 PM
That's not always true. BC may be less flashy SoD, but it can still leave the rest of the party feeling insignificant. Finishing off opponents blinded by glitterdust, or webbed or paralized (etc) opponennts is not particualrly fun or meaninful. A buffing GOD does work rather well in beign powerful while not making te party feel worthless.

Torq
2010-09-02, 12:53 PM
That's not always true. BC may be less flashy SoD, but it can still leave the rest of the party feeling insignificant. Finishing off opponents blinded by glitterdust, or webbed or paralized (etc) opponennts is not particualrly fun or meaninful. A buffing GOD does work rather well in beign powerful while not making te party feel worthless.

I'll try my best not to make them feel insignificant, but it's a new group. I'm sure they'll thank me when I transpose one of their near-0HP-bodies with my own.


Level for level, monsterous centipedes tend to be larger than any other summon type, and thus make the best grapplers simply because the size bonuses for huge and gargantuan are so gigantic. Sandstorm has some nice spells for summoning templated centipedes with even more Str than the fiendish variety you get with standard summons. I think the template is Dustform or something like that.

Also, air elementals in vortex form (and water elementals in vortex form while in the water) are pretty amazing at locking down melee foes. Ref saves tend to go down (relatively) as CR goes up, so summoning a huge or larger air elemental can disable some large monsters quite nicely.

I've already decided that I'm not going to go 10 levels in Master Specialist so Rapid Summoning becomes less appealing. I'm definitely giving up the familiar for Immediate Magic. Now, does anyone have any insight on giving up Scribe Scroll for Augment Summoning on the few SM spells I cast? It would make grapplers and trippers that much more effecting, but trading gold for spells via Scribe Scroll isn't awful either...

liquid150
2010-09-02, 12:57 PM
It would help a lot if we knew what books you are allowed to use. Any Faerun? Eberron? What else?

The summoning route will probably make the rest of your party feel like wastes of space. I'd go BC, and go quite far with it. Don't completely neglect summons, as you can use them for lots of things (including just utility, like when you need to fly somewhere or swim, as well as combat).

Take Abrupt Jaunt no matter what you decide to do. Yes, it's really THAT good.

The capstone for Master Specialist as a conjurer is very nice, so you can keep it simple and take MS all the way to 10 if you want. The extra spells, CL boosts, etc. are nice as well.

Keld Denar
2010-09-02, 01:05 PM
I'll link you my 14th level FS Conjourer when I get home from work so you have an idea of the typical spell lists he prepares and the feats and abilities he uses.

And yes, BTing yourself into danger is hillarious, especially at later levels when you can pull off shananigans like popping Heart of Stone to get Stoneskin, casting Greater Mirror Image, Abrupt Jaunting away, or loading up on Temp HP from Minor Shapeshift. My wizard is VERY hard to kill, despite my DMs efforts. I don't go out of the way to put myself in danger most of the time, but I have in the past a couple times. Its fun!

Torq
2010-09-02, 04:26 PM
It would help a lot if we knew what books you are allowed to use. Any Faerun? Eberron? What else?

Between the five of us we have most everything. Nothing besides ToB and Psionics are restricted. I know we have the Complete series, the Races series, PGtF, quite a bit of the supplemental FR material.



Take Abrupt Jaunt no matter what you decide to do. Yes, it's really THAT good.

Yep. Even if I don't use it with full-cheese-factor, it's still worth it.



The capstone for Master Specialist as a conjurer is very nice, so you can keep it simple and take MS all the way to 10 if you want. The extra spells, CL boosts, etc. are nice as well.
Yeah, even if I'm not summoning, two conjuration spells a round is nice...I'll consider it, but my only concern is getting that far. I'm not sure how high level this campaign will take us. I'd hate for the only cool thing about the last level I gain to be "your conjurations are harder to dispel." Still, you're right about the caster level increase and the two free spells for the spellbook.

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I've yet to find anything other than MS that really helps with BFC. As someone already mentioned, it's going to be more about spell selection. I like the Cloudy Conjuration+Summon Spider combo for first level. It might keep my spider alive for the second round. If anyone else has any fun low-level combos like that, I'd love to hear them.

For feat selection, I know I want Sculpt Spell and Metamagic Focus, but if I remember correctly, Sculpt Spell has "any other Metamagic feat" as a prereq. I suppose if I don't take Enhanced Summoning ACF, I could stay straight Wizard for 5 levels, picking up Extend Spell @ 3rd, Sculpt Spell @ 5th, and Metamagic Focus @ 6th...

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-02, 07:33 PM
As much as I love the Malconvoker with the passion of a thousand burning suns, if the rest of your party is going to have issues with encounters, I would actually recommend going War Weaver instead. This way, they still contribute but more so via your buffs.

Obviously, you wouldn't be going Focused Conjurer, for this, but I figure it's worth a mention. Generally, you'll want to go Transmuter 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/FILLER X using Sanctum Spell to qualify for War Weaver early. Spellguard 4 lets you slap personal buff spells like Bladeweave or Bite of the WereX onto the entire party. Having a gish be able to daze you on an attack with +12 str from bite of the weretiger is vicious. Having an entire party do that is more so.


To remain on topic, though, my preferred Malconvoker build is Wizard 3/MS 2/Malconvoker 5/MS+8 (swift action summons? Yes, please)/Filler 2. I've never really had the last two levels come up, but Paragnostic Initiate and Archmage are both acceptable answers to that fill-in-the-blank.

unimaginable
2010-09-03, 11:17 AM
You seem to think that the two are mutually exclusive?
Hardly. The two are very much compatible; however, in cases like this, one is important and the other is entirely inappropriate.

Oh, and if the party is having trouble with encounters, you should either help them learn to do it better, or you should make the encounters easier. DM gets to determine exactly how powerful everyone is... people who just blindly follow the CR system and expect things to be balanced are seriously misguided. As DM you ought to have intimate knowledge both of what your PCs can do mechanically, and of how well your players use those abilities, what their favourite tactics are, etc. Encounters can then be built to be appropriately challenging given all those factors... both giving them obvious places where their powers will shine, and catering challenges to them they'll need to be creative to overcome.

If nothing else, you can just give the PCs "overpowered" magic items to compensate for their poor character design.

The way you're describing the wizard is basically replacing what the DM needs to do to appropriately challenge the players: water down the encounters to the point that they can handle them effectively. But it's entirely too easy to take that too far and just negate the challenges altogether, and not doing so would strain credulity a lot of the time. It separates you from the game, requiring you to metagame, and overly complicates encounter balance through a too-many-chefs phenomena.

It's better to see a poorly optimized party as an opportunity to try builds that you'd never use in an optimized game: fun stuff that's thematically awesome but not all that mechanically powerful. Give you a rare chance to play something that's always tickled your fancy, but which you've avoided due to wanting to be stronger. A skilled player with an inexperienced party should always try to match, or only subtly exceed, the power level of the others, while finding ways to encourage and teach them to get better. Optimizing when they're all weak is just showing off, and sure to make the DM's job of appropriately balancing things way more difficult.

Torq
2010-09-03, 11:25 AM
I would actually recommend going War Weaver instead. This way, they still contribute but more so via your buffs.


A notable mention without a doubt, but the cleric has expressed a desire to specialize in party buffing. I don't want to go stealing his thunder.

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-03, 11:27 AM
Look up the spells in BOED that are castable by wizards. Some of those rock when you can layer them on the whole party. I have seen a build that after level 12 or so caused greater luminous armor to garnt something like +15 to AC, shield to do slightly less, and other crazy buffs to make your party laugh.

Warweaver is great though. It is worth the whole lost level in spellcasting. It grants you the ability to make all arcane spells you cast effect everyone in the party, allows you to store spells and release them all at once, and finaly extends the range of all buff spells by one degree. There has been serious temptaion for me to make a healer bard that uses warweaver and hymn of healing to cause a cure light wounds to heal 100s of hp.

Point this out the the party cleric then.

I would also point out that a dip into sorcerer with versitile spellcaster can get you the casting reqs for geomancer, that then turns divine spells into a best of both worlds arcane/divine mix. Then go warweaver to spread those buffs and healing to everyone.

Keld Denar
2010-09-03, 11:48 AM
I would also point out that a dip into sorcerer with versitile spellcaster can get you the casting reqs for geomancer

Not quite. Versatile Spellcaster gives you the slot, but as a Sorc you don't know any spells to fill it with. A first level spell cast from a second level slot is mechanically identical to a first level spell cast from a first level slot. You'd need to tack on Heighten Spell to that to treat the spell in every respect as a 2nd level spell, or sub Versatile Spellcaster with Sanctum Spell, which, inside of your sanctum, treats a spell as if it were 1 spell level higher for all purposes such as DC, piercing a Globe of Invulnerability, or qualifying for PrCs.

Powerfamiliar
2010-09-03, 12:21 PM
As I DM I have to echo unimaginable. It's much easier to make fun and interesting encounters when the whole party is around the same power level.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-03, 12:32 PM
Not quite. Versatile Spellcaster gives you the slot, but as a Sorc you don't know any spells to fill it with. A first level spell cast from a second level slot is mechanically identical to a first level spell cast from a first level slot. You'd need to tack on Heighten Spell to that to treat the spell in every respect as a 2nd level spell, or sub Versatile Spellcaster with Sanctum Spell, which, inside of your sanctum, treats a spell as if it were 1 spell level higher for all purposes such as DC, piercing a Globe of Invulnerability, or qualifying for PrCs.

I don't disagree, and sanctum spell is my preferred method as well. However, another alternative method consists of using Extra Spell instead of heighten. It's more feat intensive, but it solves the spell known issue in a way that results in the sorcerer permanently knowing another spell. Picking up a second level spell early is incredibly valuable for sorcs, as level 3 is a bit of a rough patch otherwise.

Torq
2010-09-03, 12:40 PM
Look up the spells in BOED that are castable by wizards. Some of those rock when you can layer them on the whole party. I have seen a build that after level 12 or so caused greater luminous armor to garnt something like +15 to AC, shield to do slightly less, and other crazy buffs to make your party laugh.

...

I would also point out that a dip into sorcerer with versitile spellcaster can get you the casting reqs for geomancer, that then turns divine spells into a best of both worlds arcane/divine mix. Then go warweaver to spread those buffs and healing to everyone.

Are you referring primarily to the Sanctified spells then? I don't see to many great spells on the Sor/Wiz spell list, but plenty of sanctified awesomeness. Even if I don't cast any of them, I'll let the cleric know about them.

I'll have to reread Geomancer. I don't remember it being appealing, but as a buffer, maybe it is. And as a buffer, I can't think of TOO many 9th level spells that would be missed (it doesn't look like one can get 9th level spells and still qualify for the Geomancer, though I don't have the book right now to confirm it).

Torq
2010-09-03, 12:44 PM
As I DM I have to echo unimaginable. It's much easier to make fun and interesting encounters when the whole party is around the same power level.

I'm going to go ahead and play the character as he is and dumb him down during encounters if the other players start to sound jealous. I'll save anything clever for when we're facing a TPK otherwise.

Keld Denar
2010-09-03, 12:51 PM
Picking up a second level spell early is incredibly valuable for sorcs, as level 3 is a bit of a rough patch otherwise.

Extra Spell will only get you an extra spell of 1 lower than the highest you can cast. Since you still can only cast 1st level spells (even with Versatile Spellcaster, as I mentioned above), Extra Spell for a Sorcerer3 would net you an extra 0th level spell known. Which would be a terrible use of a feat...

Torq
2010-09-04, 11:05 AM
I don't disagree, and sanctum spell is my preferred method as well. However, another alternative method consists of using Extra Spell instead of heighten. It's more feat intensive, but it solves the spell known issue in a way that results in the sorcerer permanently knowing another spell. Picking up a second level spell early is incredibly valuable for sorcs, as level 3 is a bit of a rough patch otherwise.

Maybe Precocious Apprentice (CAr, p. 181) would accomplish what you're talking about.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-04, 11:09 AM
Sorta. It's a good feat, but dubious for those who emphasize the second level spells requirement as requiring multiple spells. Some interpret it that way, some do not.

Thrawn183
2010-09-04, 11:17 AM
I would advise going BFC and not Malconvolker. Why? Because summons are annoying, for everyone else. They take forever. How many times have we heard complaints about how long combat takes? Now imagine you're controlling six summoned creatures. Boring.

Private-Prinny
2010-09-04, 01:06 PM
I would advise going BFC and not Malconvolker. Why? Because summons are annoying, for everyone else. They take forever. How many times have we heard complaints about how long combat takes? Now imagine you're controlling six summoned creatures. Boring.

Funny thing, when I played a Malconvoker, I was able to get through my turns faster than my teammates. I just had a short list of my favorite summons with sheets generated for them, and I was rapid-firing d20s nonstop.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-04, 01:37 PM
Funny thing, when I played a Malconvoker, I was able to get through my turns faster than my teammates. I just had a short list of my favorite summons with sheets generated for them, and I was rapid-firing d20s nonstop.

Dammit, Private-Prinny, just hearing that makes me want to convert a paintball gun to fire d20s at full auto!

In regards to Malconvoker or not, if you do do it, make sure you have sheets and the like for your regulars. It's more work, but it won't slow combat down (as much).

Vemynal
2010-09-08, 01:02 AM
Ok after reading this thread i gotta say the lot of you have me completely hyped on a possible character

Chaotic Good Tiefling Conj/Malconvoker with Rapid and Enhanced Summoning

Now atm I'm stuck on what schools to barr, I want Ench just because i think it would fit with the class well and there's no way in hell I'm barring Trans (I like buffing ^_^)

So I'm looking at 2 of: Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion and Necromancy

Now I generally don't like playing the blaster caster, my best friend and our table 'minimus maximus' hands out damage just fine usually. I also tend to obsess like a school girl over the Necromancy school in the past (Dread Necro Zombie army lord...yes I like armies xD). Abjuration seems useful for when calling demons. In the past I've barred Illusion but I was thinking I could use illusions to supplement my summons?

So I was thinking of barring Evo and Necro but I wanted to hear back on whether this would cripple me to much?

I was also curious:
1) Someone before mentioned that the Major Esoteria at level 10 of Master Specialist when stacked with Rapid Summoning would allow for Fast Action Summons. Does this work and is it worth it? Means I'd be taking 3Conj/10MS/7Malconvoker total (not necessarily in that order). Or would it be better to take a full 9 in Malconvoker and go another route? at level 8 of Malconvoker I get an ability to raise my HD limit for planar bindings by 2 (I have no idea what this means) and level 9 can dismiss evil summons as an immediate action. Is this worth the trade off?

2) Would taking Leadership be to much? I just liked the idea of running around teleporting massive armies like that 'Ganonron' soul splice in the comic xD (This is, of course, assuming my GM lets me do this after said Dread Necromancer took 'Undead Leadership' and I ate a town >.< )

Private-Prinny
2010-09-08, 08:16 AM
Ok after reading this thread i gotta say the lot of you have me completely hyped on a possible character
Let's see it then.

Chaotic Good Tiefling Conj/Malconvoker
I like it.

with Rapid and Enhanced Summoning
Good pick. Losing Abrupt Jaunt hurts, but the Rapid Summoning is way worth it in the long run.


Now atm I'm stuck on what schools to barr, I want Ench just because i think it would fit with the class well and there's no way in hell I'm barring Trans (I like buffing ^_^)

So I'm looking at 2 of: Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion and Necromancy
I see nothing wrong with this logic. Planar Binding becomes much more powerful when you have access to Mindrape.


So I was thinking of barring Evo and Necro but I wanted to hear back on whether this would cripple me to much?
Not at all. Banning Evo/Ench or Evo/Necro would be your best options.


I was also curious:
1) Someone before mentioned that the Major Esoteria at level 10 of Master Specialist when stacked with Rapid Summoning would allow for Fast Action Summons. Does this work and is it worth it? Means I'd be taking 3Conj/10MS/7Malconvoker total (not necessarily in that order). Or would it be better to take a full 9 in Malconvoker and go another route?

Rapid Summoning makes summons a Standard action. Major School Esoterica (Conj) makes 3/day Standard action Conj spells (like your summons) swift actions. This works, but frankly I would probably prefer the benefits from other PrCs (Fatespinner, Paragnostic Apostle, etc.).


at level 8 of Malconvoker I get an ability to raise my HD limit for planar bindings by 2 (I have no idea what this means) and level 9 can dismiss evil summons as an immediate action. Is this worth the trade off?

The level 8 ability lets you summon stronger creatures with Planar Binding spells. For example, Greater Planar Binding lets you summon a creature with up to 18 HD (like a Pit Fiend). With 8 levels in Malconvoker, the same spell would let you summon something up to 20 HD (like a Balor). The level 9 ability I never really saw much use for. I'd trade it in for a level of Paragnostic Apostle (Hint: Select Call of Worlds).


2) Would taking Leadership be to much?

Yes, yes it would.

Vemynal
2010-09-08, 03:53 PM
With 1 lvl in Apostle my Summons gain Fast Healing 5

Lvls 2-4 of Fate Spinner make it so I never will have to worry about failing to control my summoned/Called monster

Suddenly I see why you've mentioned these 2 classes so much

So I'm looking at these two options now for what class levels:

5Conjurer/8Malconvoker/2ParagnosticApostle/4Fatespinner/1Wayfarers Guide
~~I just wrote out Master Specialist entirely since it's minor esoteria wasn't that good, I figured the wizard bonus feat would be better to get at level 5. I threw in Wayfarers Guide because it gave a small bonus to teleportation that felt thematically correct without halting spell progression.

3Conjurer/10MasterSpecialist/6Malconvoker/1ParagnosticApostle
~~This build keeps the fast casting 3/day and allows for the fast healing abilities but lacks the ability of the fate spinner to make rerolls (guaranteeing your monsters work for you).

I guess after looking into everything I have to agree with you Prinny, its better to guarantee that your summoned/called monsters stay 'yours' than to be able to cast them faster.

On to feats!
For Malconvoker I need Spell Focus Conjuration and Augmented Summoning but I've been reading up on the Colligate Wizard feat. To sum: it allows me to learn 4 spells every level instead of 2 but it has to be taken at the first level.

So I was wondering if Augmented Summoning is able to be taken as a wizard's bonus feat, so far to what I've been able to find the answer has been 'no' :(

I like the concept of playing a Tiefling 'Good Demonologist' to much to trash it to take a race that grants an extra feat, so I was wondering if there was any possible way to get all three feats by level 5 so I can take Malconvoker at level 6.

Or would you suggest taking my first level in Paragnostic Apostle for lvl 6, grabbing the Augmented Summoning feat @ lvl 6 and then beginning the Malconvoker lvls at lvl 7?

Private-Prinny
2010-09-08, 04:39 PM
So I was wondering if Augmented Summoning is able to be taken as a wizard's bonus feat, so far to what I've been able to find the answer has been 'no' :(

I like the concept of playing a Tiefling 'Good Demonologist' to much to trash it to take a race that grants an extra feat, so I was wondering if there was any possible way to get all three feats by level 5 so I can take Malconvoker at level 6.

Or would you suggest taking my first level in Paragnostic Apostle for lvl 6, grabbing the Augmented Summoning feat @ lvl 6 and then beginning the Malconvoker lvls at lvl 7?

Augmented Summoning is granted to you in place of Scribe Scroll if you use the Enhanced Summoning variant, but you would lose out on the bonus feat at level 5. You would then get Augmented Summoning at level 1, pick up Collegiate Wizard, and take Spell Focus (Conj) at level 3. Problem solved.

BTW, you may want to ask your DM to make a ruling, since the text for the Enhanced Summoning variant states level, not class level, implying that you would keep the bonuses coming even if you PrC'd out, and Collegiate Wizard has its own problems. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167557)

Vemynal
2010-09-08, 05:18 PM
yeah ok thx for the colligate wizard link there, while I could probably sneak it past I think I'm just gonna save myself the trouble and not get it.

At this point I've found a couple of different handbooks that can help me out. thank you for your help everyone ^_^

Endarire
2010-09-08, 05:57 PM
The COnjurer Summoner (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8142.0)

candycorn
2010-09-08, 06:43 PM
If you're going elf, I recommend trying out the Fire Elf from Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves).

+2 Dex, +2 int, -2 Con, -2 Cha.