[Pathfinder] Would this be bad?

[Shadowbane]

Would it be broken or too good to give the Pathfinder fighter good progression in all three saves? They are supposed to be the lords of the battlefield but when I play one, if I get hit with any type of enchantment spell, I'm screwed.

Would it be broken to give them good progression? Or would it be better balance?

[olelia]

Poor Monk :(....Instead you could have their bravey be changed to say something like when affected by enchantments the fighter uses his fort save instead.

[FMArthur]

I would say that the class, being super-modular in design already, should get to choose their one (or two?) good save. The idea behind the fighter is that you could be a burly brute, a nimble professional, an implacable opponent, or any number of different archetypes. You should be able to choose your saves to fit the one you're aiming for.

[ryzouken]

That's a bad idea.

Want your fighter to not suck vs. enchantments? Don't dump Wis, take Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, invest in resistance to saves gear.

@20th lvl: 6 base + 3-5 Wis + 5 Resistance + 2 Iron Will = 16-18 to your will save. And you can reroll.

The same logic applies to Reflex, only you'll also want a ring of Evasion.

Can also add a luckstone and other random bonuses to your saves through a variety of means, and that's straight class fighter, no multiclassing.

[Eldariel]

That's a bad idea.

Want your fighter to not suck vs. enchantments? Don't dump Wis, take Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, invest in resistance to saves gear.

@20th lvl: 6 base + 3-5 Wis + 5 Resistance + 4 Iron Will = 18-20 to your will save.

The same logic applies to Reflex, only you'll also want a ring of Evasion.

...because you'll have 4 high stats, infinite gold and won't get hit by DC 30+ saves? Really, Fighter is rather boned in that regard; he can't afford good Wisdom & Dexterity in anything but the most generous point buys or ridiculous rolls.

They deserve a good Will-save and then some. CChamp ACF "Resolute" fixes that up quite nicely tho; +10 goes a long way. Combine with Crystalmask of Mindarmor and you actually have a prayer of making the saves.

[ryzouken]

At level 20? Yeah he can afford +4 tomes of Wis and Dex to bump those numbers. Plus Headband and Belt. Not hard.

If the fighter drops even 14's in those stats, headband + belt means he hits the stat numbers I calculated for. He can even improve my numbers by buying books. What's more, he can do so within his WBL. So the first two points you raised? Done. 30+ save dc's? Yeah, he might have to face some. He needs a 12 or so to succeed and if it's a particular annoying effect, he can reroll 1/day. Side note: this is STILL only straight fighter 20. Multiclass and you can get better saves.

Or, you could just play a Ranger.

System's fine.

[Snake-Aes]

At level 20? Yeah he can afford +4 tomes of Wis and Dex to bump those numbers. Plus Headband and Belt. Not hard.


You're not in his game, you don't know that.That same +4 tome could be better spent on strength, or constitution, and that waist slot? Sorry, belt of battle.
"they can gear for something they do not excel at to make up for their defficiencies" is the [b]second[B] priority, not the first. What you are asking here demands top priority.

[FMArthur]

Oh wow, by LEVEL TWENTY I can have acceptable saves if I only put a 14 in two stats I won't otherwise care about, after dumping large amounts of gold into it? You have put my mind at ease sir.

[Shadowbane]

We have almost no wbl. Our game is fairly devoid of magic items. I have, like, a +3 Collision Longsword and that's my only magic item.

And, I like level 14.

[TaintedLight]

At level 20? Yeah he can afford +4 tomes of Wis and Dex to bump those numbers. Plus Headband and Belt. Not hard.

If the fighter drops even 14's in those stats, headband + belt means he hits the stat numbers I calculated for. He can even improve my numbers by buying books. What's more, he can do so within his WBL. So the first two points you raised? Done. 30+ save dc's? Yeah, he might have to face some. He needs a 12 or so to succeed and if it's a particular annoying effect, he can reroll 1/day. Side note: this is STILL only straight fighter 20. Multiclass and you can get better saves.

Or, you could just play a Ranger.

System's fine.

What kind of games do you play in where books with knowledge so powerful that they can actually make you measurably stronger/smarter are available for purchase? That's a horrible strategy and far from standard from everything I've ever seen in a playgroup I've been with.

As for the fighter as written, I think it's best to leave the saves as they are. It makes very little sense for you to have reflexes as good as a rogue's AND a will as unbreakable as a psion's when your primary skillset relates to battle. You're a lot more likely to have trained your body to resist being bowled over, torn apart, or shrugging off poisoned arrows than you are to have been practicing gymnastics or meditating a lot. There are other classes that represent that kind of archetype very well.

Now, if you wanted to customize your fighter in a different direction, more swashbuckler-y like, you could make the argument that he eschewed endurance training for better reflexes, but I'm having a hard time seeing Will being a top priority. If you were a Knight maybe, but personally I'd go with no on this one. Your best bet is to find ways to boost your will save like with saves and feats, or ask your party buffers to give you a protection from evil spell.

[Tael]

Fantastic Idea! Well, personally I'd leave out Ref saves and only increase will, but it's still good.

[Mongoose87]

I miss Medium saves. A good Fort and medium Will and Reflex save would have suited the Fighter just fine.

[Starbuck_II]

Would it be broken or too good to give the Pathfinder fighter good progression in all three saves? They are supposed to be the lords of the battlefield but when I play one, if I get hit with any type of enchantment spell, I'm screwed.

Would it be broken to give them good progression? Or would it be better balance?

You could enhance Bravery to apply to all Mind affecting saves instead of just fear.

[onthetown]

You could Gestalt as a Wizard, if it's allowed.

If not, invest in feats to raise Will and carry some Mind Blank-esque items with you.

[Eldariel]

At level 20? Yeah he can afford +4 tomes of Wis and Dex to bump those numbers. Plus Headband and Belt. Not hard.

If the fighter drops even 14's in those stats, headband + belt means he hits the stat numbers I calculated for. He can even improve my numbers by buying books. What's more, he can do so within his WBL. So the first two points you raised? Done. 30+ save dc's? Yeah, he might have to face some. He needs a 12 or so to succeed and if it's a particular annoying effect, he can reroll 1/day. Side note: this is STILL only straight fighter 20. Multiclass and you can get better saves.

Or, you could just play a Ranger.

System's fine.

I suggest you try playing a game by the rules provided in the books before making claims to this effect. Chances of you getting 14s in stats after the first two-three, your character creation is already exceedingly powerful. In normal game, that's simply not happening. Then you get lots of wealth at level 20, but most of it will be spent on your weapon, armor, stat boosters, etc. The Tomes simply have incredibly poor GP/Benefit ratios so you should never get them outside your primary stats. If you do, you'll miss out on basic stuff like flight, teleportation, "Oh ****"-buttons (e.g. Rod of Cancellation), basic stat boosters and so on. Build equipment for a level 20 character from scrap; see just how much you need to give up for those Tomes. And that's level 20; level 19, 18 & 17 you're facing just the same save DCs but with hundreds of thousands of less wealth.

It wasn't fine in 3.X but at least you had items that allowed making up for that vulnerability (Crystalmask of Mindarmor, Ring of Mental Fortitude, etc.). Rangers still don't get good Will-saves. One fail against a Will-save and your character is history. Having under 50% of making the save against Dominate Monster, for example, is not good. You make the first? They use Rod to Quicken a second. They've now spent two actions to not only completely disable you but turn your efforts against your party. Good job tank; now the party lacks a tank and is being attacked by a maniac with an 800k equipment.

[Shadowbane]

And, worse yet, if it's a pathfinder fighter, you could be dealing with somebody who dishes out the highest DPR of the party.

[Marnath]

At those levels you should be casting mind blank on the low will save people.

[Tyndmyr]

I miss Medium saves. A good Fort and medium Will and Reflex save would have suited the Fighter just fine.

This. I feel that only having two progressions, good and bad, leads to ridiculous results late game.

[Eldariel]

They sorta exist, though not spelled out; Scout's Battle Fortitude and Swashbuckler's Grace both add up to Medium Saves; Fort for Scout and Ref for Swash.

[FMArthur]

I don't understand what's so bad about letting Fighters pick their good save, like the Generic Warrior. Hell, I think they should get to pick two if you ask me.:smallconfused:

[Shadowbane]

At those levels you should be casting mind blank on the low will save people.

All melee party.

[9mm]

You could enhance Bravery to apply to all Mind affecting saves instead of just fear.

this would probably work best

[Fax Celestis]

@20th lvl: 6 base + 3-5 Wis + 5 Resistance + 2 Iron Will = 16-18 to your will save. And you can reroll.

This is not an impressive number. My pathfinder druid has a +15 will save at 9th level.

[JonRG]

Just let your fighters take Steadfast Determination. They get Con to Will saves, and don't have to worry about rolling nat 1 against a SoD spell. Done and doner.

[dsmiles]

I'll take "Choosing Your Own High Save" for a hundred, Alex.

Seriously, if it's supposed to be 3.x compatible, the UA NPC variant classes let the Warrior choose his high save, why shouldn't the Fighter?

[subject42]

If possible, I would suggest expanding the scope of the "bravery" class feature from "will saves against fear" to simply "will saves".

That would give him an effective +11 to his will save by 20th level. That's one shy of a "good" base will save.

Edit: Quasi-ninja'd.

[Mongoose87]

If possible, I would suggest expanding the scope of the "bravery" class feature from "will saves against fear" to simply "will saves".

That would give him an effective +11 to his will save by 20th level. That's one shy of a "good" base will save.

Edit: Quasi-ninja'd.

I wish they'd just said "screw Bravery," and given them a good Will save.

[9mm]

I wish they'd just said "screw Bravery," and given them a good Will save.

something that reasonable would have had Sean K. screaming "OP!"

[Greenish]

something that reasonable would have had Sean K. screaming "OP!"…Much like giving monks full BAB. Because, gee, now they only have full BAB for CMB, CMD and full attack.

[Tyndmyr]

Gotta have class features on every level, remember.

Obviously, it's more interesting if it's listed under a class feature paragraph, instead of just being built into the numbers, because players LOVE more math.

Coming soon, trig based bonuses!