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View Full Version : Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?



subject42
2010-08-23, 10:25 AM
Does anyone have a comprehensive list of 3.5/PF classes that are based mostly around an at-will or per-encounter mechanic, rather than a per-day mechanic? Here are the ones that I know. Am I missing any?

Totally Encounter-Based or At-Will

Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Binder
Dragon Shaman
Incarnate
Totemist


Has at-will or Encounter-based Elements

Factotum
Dread Necromancer
Truenamer (on this list due to the increasing DC)
Shapeshift Druid

0Megabyte
2010-08-23, 10:27 AM
You missed Dragon Shaman.

Also, Fighters. :D And Rogues.

As you said, at-will or encounter type powers. And "I attack again" is an at will. So is sneak attack, when you flank. :smallamused:

Greenish
2010-08-23, 10:31 AM
MoI ones, ie. Incarnate, Totemist and Soulborn.

ToM also has Truenamer.

Then there are all the martial classes without powers, such as fighter, rogue, swashbuckler.

Kaeso
2010-08-23, 10:37 AM
Do wizards/sorcerers with reserve feats count?

Amphetryon
2010-08-23, 10:50 AM
Fighter could go on the list, technically. Very few Fighter tricks are based around a limited resource other than HP and maybe ammo.

Draz74
2010-08-23, 11:16 AM
Factotum has some pretty important per-day abilities. If Factotum is still on the list, I could argue that Paladin and Ninja (for example) should be too. They've got a fair mix of per-day and at-will abilities.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 11:21 AM
Factotum has some pretty important per-day abilities.True enough. Opportunistic Piety and Arcane Dilettante are both x/day, while Cunning Knowledge is 1/day/skill.

PId6
2010-08-23, 11:26 AM
Scout
Swashbuckler (all except for Lucky)
Samurai (except for Kiai Smite)
Soulknife

Yorrin
2010-08-23, 11:28 AM
A case could be made for Marshal, but everyone knows that class is just a one level dip in Diplomancer builds:smalltongue:

On a more serious note, a comprehensive list of classes, (NPCs, generic classes, and Vancian Casters excluded):

barbarian
eidolon
factotum
fighter
marshal
monk
ninja
paladin
ranger
rogue
samurai
scout
soulknife
swashbuckler
warlock
incarnate
soulborn
totemist
binder
dragon shaman
knight
crusader
swordsage
warblade
dragonfire adept

PId6
2010-08-23, 11:39 AM
Barbarian's most iconic mechanic operates on a per day basis, so I don't think that counts. As had been said, Factotum has some of its most important features with daily limits (Cunning Knowledge, Arcane Dilettante), so that's a bit iffy too. Ninja/monk have enough daily abilities that I don't think they should count. That also goes for all the spellcasting classes, including paladin and ranger (especially paladin thanks to Smite Evil and Lay on Hands). And like barbarian, knight's most iconic ability is per day as well, so that shouldn't count either.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 11:40 AM
monk
ninja
paladin
ranger
samurai
knight
You could make an argument for most of those being mostly at-will or encounter based, yeah, but paladin? Spells, Turn Undead, Call Horsey, Smite Evil, Remove Disease… Yeah, that won't fly. The only at-will they have is normal attack and Detect Evil.

Yorrin
2010-08-23, 11:44 AM
You could make an argument for most of those being mostly at-will or encounter based, yeah, but paladin? Spells, Turn Undead, Call Horsey, Smite Evil, Remove Disease… Yeah, that won't fly. The only at-will they have is normal attack and Detect Evil.

Oh, I agree that not my entire list fits the OP's original question, but I get the feeling he's just looking for something other than a Vancian caster, so I gave him a comprehensive list.

DanReiv
2010-08-23, 12:23 PM
I would add Dread Necro.

Charnel touch and fear aura at will.

It's not a lot granted, but very helpfull for the class, especially the 1st. It's basically at will heal for himself (tomb stained soul/necropolitan) and all his undead minions.

subject42
2010-08-23, 01:17 PM
Oh, I agree that not my entire list fits the OP's original question, but I get the feeling he's just looking for something other than a Vancian caster, so I gave him a comprehensive list.

I'm actually running into issues with varying levels of optimization in my players' party, as well as perennial issues of resource management across a few of the players. On top of that, the idea of a "day" is extremely nebulous in D&D, while "encounter" is pretty discrete and distinct.

If it weren't for the fact that 4th edition didn't really do it for any of us, I would probably use that for this group, but I'd like to backport a few of the ideas.


ToM also has Truenamer.

This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.

EvilJoe15
2010-08-23, 02:43 PM
I'd like to submit Wizard, Psion, and Erudite. With the various recharge tricks(Santum Lucubration, Psicrystal Leach, and Mental Pinnacle respectivly), they can last all day.

Tetrasodium
2010-08-23, 03:20 PM
I'm actually running into issues with varying levels of optimization in my players' party, as well as perennial issues of resource management across a few of the players. On top of that, the idea of a "day" is extremely nebulous in D&D, while "encounter" is pretty discrete and distinct.

If it weren't for the fact that 4th edition didn't really do it for any of us, I would probably use that for this group, but I'd like to backport a few of the ideas.

You might want to check out tome of battle (book of nine swords) with the martial maneuvers and how how they are recovered and some of the reserved feats in complete mage. It sounds like maybe you have a player blowing all their power at the drop of a hat or saving all of it till near party wipe, having something less than dropping a planet on someone/thing or something they won't have to fret over replacing later might be a good alternative... of course, maybe I completely misunderstood what the resource management problem you mentioned was.

subject42
2010-08-23, 03:29 PM
You might want to check out tome of battle (book of nine swords) with the martial maneuvers and how how they are recovered and some of the reserved feats in complete mage. It sounds like maybe you have a player blowing all their power at the drop of a hat or saving all of it till near party wipe, having something less than dropping a planet on someone/thing or something they won't have to fret over replacing later might be a good alternative... of course, maybe I completely misunderstood what the resource management problem you mentioned was.

You're right on the money with those, and I'm slowly introducing them to the players as they progress. I'm just looking for more up-front methods for doing it as well.

okpokalypse
2010-08-23, 03:34 PM
A team of 3+ Psions with one having Affinity Field effectively have Inf PSP via Bestow Powers from the other 2. All they need are a few minutes of downtime between encounters to get full.

Hell, this can even be done solo with the right items/feats and a psi-crystal.

Zeta Kai
2010-08-23, 03:38 PM
I'd like to submit Wizard, Psion, and Erudite. With the various recharge tricks(Santum Lucubration, Psicrystal Leach, and Mental Pinnacle respectivly), they can last all day.

Dude, if we let them in, then we let in everybody, & there goes the whole premise of the thread. Each of the classes that you cited need cheese to fight against the fire-&-forget nature of their powers, which make them superb examples of what this list is NOT about. Yes, there are certain tricks that can, under certain circumstances, extend the firepower of a given caster; but finding ways to include every class isn't really the point.

The fighter, on the other hand, is built around the (flawed) premise that their capacity to fight indefinitely balances the casters' per-diem mechanics. They can swing their beat sticks all damn day, while the casters are (normally) forced to quit after their spells are spent.

Tetrasodium
2010-08-23, 03:41 PM
You're right on the money with those, and I'm slowly introducing them to the players as they progress. I'm just looking for more up-front methods for doing it as well.

You could always introduce an NPC & quest to give them something along those lines with a bit less treasure from the quest itself. Possibly even add a cost to it, there are a few warforged feats that cost HP to use (shocking fist lets you add 1d4 electricity damage to the slam up to BaB at the cost of -1hp/1d4 damage to self, another heals them some and causes a debuff I forget the details on) so it's not completely out of nowhere.

Is the problem an arcane, divine, or melee type? can you give a bit more detail on the problem itself? You could always drop a couple eternal wands in the treasure tables (2 charge/day every day) if it might help.

WinWin
2010-08-23, 03:48 PM
Rope Trick Wizard. That is an encounter based class. :smallcool:

subject42
2010-08-23, 03:51 PM
Is the problem an arcane, divine, or melee type? can you give a bit more detail on the problem itself? You could always drop a couple eternal wands in the treasure tables (2 charge/day every day) if it might help.

The problem is mostly on the caster side. I don't really make much of a distinction between Divine and Arcane, as they're both Vancian. Luckily most of my players are fairly enthusiastic about rebuilding characters, assuming that the fluff that they create still meshes with the available mechanics.

The biggest problem right now is the "blaster bard" who is trying to use direct damage spells and melee attacks, which results in sub-par performance relative to some of the more optimized players as well as a short operating lifetime in any given day.

The player is a little frustrated with it, but still wants to do the buffing thing. I was considering suggesting that they play a ToB class with some investment into the White Raven school.

Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.

For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.

Tetrasodium
2010-08-23, 03:58 PM
The problem is mostly on the caster side. I don't really make much of a distinction between Divine and Arcane, as they're both Vancian. Luckily most of my players are fairly enthusiastic about rebuilding characters, assuming that the fluff that they create still meshes with the available mechanics.

The biggest problem right now is the "blaster bard" who is trying to use direct damage spells and melee attacks, which results in sub-par performance relative to some of the more optimized players as well as a short operating lifetime in any given day.

The player is a little frustrated with it, but still wants to do the buffing thing. I was considering suggesting that they play a ToB class with some investment into the White Raven school.

Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.

For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.

A reserved feat like acid splash(?)/force needle/etc that gives xd6 damage based on the level of memorized spells works great when combined with sneak attack. The "blaster bard" might find some kind of rogue/caster hybrid a good alternative, plenty of PrC's give partial sneak attack/caster progression. Even rogue with a level of wizard or sorcerer is enough to use a lot of the reserve feats. Giving the sorcerer one of the reserved feats would also solve his problems, no need to worry about running out of something they can use every round until they finally cast that last spell letting them use it.

WinWin
2010-08-23, 04:00 PM
For the Sorcerer player, perhaps a partial rebuild to introduce them to Binder. Anima mage could help out there. The Cha synergy would be useful.

As for the Bard...I think your suggestion of steering them toward White Raven is a good one. Shadow Hand and Desert wind offer a few blast effects if that is his style.

Draz74
2010-08-23, 04:43 PM
A reserved feat like acid splash(?)/force needle/etc that gives xd6 damage based on the level of memorized spells works great when combined with sneak attack. The "blaster bard" might find some kind of rogue/caster hybrid a good alternative, plenty of PrC's give partial sneak attack/caster progression. Even rogue with a level of wizard or sorcerer is enough to use a lot of the reserve feats.
If I'm playing a Rogue-type who wants to deliver sneak attack damage using a magical ranged touch attack, I'd much rather spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device and buy some dirt-cheap wands of Acid Splash, rather than take a level in Sorcerer or Wizard and take a Reserve Feat. 1d3 damage isn't very different from 1d6 damage, and the investment is a lot less painful.


As for the Bard...I think your suggestion of steering them toward White Raven is a good one. Shadow Hand and Desert wind offer a few blast effects if that is his style.
Unfortunately, no Tome of Battle class gives both Desert Wind and White Raven access (unless I'm forgetting some PrC that does. Well, of course Master of Nine does, but ... I doubt that's what you're going for?). How attached is your player to blasting?


Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.

For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.


For the Sorcerer player, perhaps a partial rebuild to introduce them to Binder. Anima mage could help out there. The Cha synergy would be useful.

Anima Mage will be a strong choice ... eventually, but it gets its power slowly. And most of the Binder blasting abilities will be unimpressive on a character that starts off mainly as a Sorcerer.

Personally I love to just take the Dragonfire Adept and drop most of the dragon-specific flavor, and use that as a high-endurance Sorcerer class. Maybe your player won't be so worried about personal defensive magic when Constitution is his primary ability score and he has more HP than the rest of the party combined. :smallwink:

Yorrin
2010-08-23, 04:50 PM
Yeah, I'll agree with Reserve feats for the Sorc and Crusader levels for the bard. These are great options and sound like they're designed for exactly your problem.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-23, 04:55 PM
Everlasting Wizards and Sorcerers

Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Quicken Spell
Ignore Material Components, Improved Spell Capacity x2

Innate Spell (Theller's Argauneau)

Yorrin
2010-08-23, 04:59 PM
Innate Spell

See, there's your problem. This is horribly underpowered anywhere pre-epic.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-23, 05:02 PM
If I'm playing a Rogue-type who wants to deliver sneak attack damage using a magical ranged touch attack, I'd much rather spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device and buy some dirt-cheap wands of Acid Splash, rather than take a level in Sorcerer or Wizard and take a Reserve Feat. 1d3 damage isn't very different from 1d6 damage, and the investment is a lot less painful.


Eh, Acid flasks are better due to splash (cheap too).

Andion Isurand
2010-08-23, 05:02 PM
See, there's your problem. This is horribly underpowered anywhere pre-epic.

Good thing its not used in a pre-epic fasion... albiet an arcanist must wait till epic level for this setup to hatch.

Draz74
2010-08-23, 06:39 PM
Eh, Acid flasks are better due to splash (cheap too).

I'd call it a toss-up. The wand is slightly cheaper, and has a higher range without taking range penalties, and can be stored in a wand chamber so that you don't have to worry about drawing equipment/switching weapons. The flasks are splash and have a higher range with range penalties.

The flasks are a lot heavier to lug around, and the wand requires UMD, but those are kind of irrelevant to a typical Rogue who has UMD anyway and carries around a lot of extradimensional storage.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-23, 06:52 PM
Totally Encounter-Based or At-Will

Binder

It's worth noting that while the Binder will go all day, after 24 hours they need to remake their Pacts. A Binder without any Pacts is kinda like a dumber Expert.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-23, 07:53 PM
Has at-will or Encounter-based Elements

Factotum
Dread Necromancer
Truenamer (on this list due to the increasing DC)


What, the truenamer is on this list, and the wizard is not? Reserve feats, alternate class features, etc enable the wizard to be pretty encounter based, if necessary. Plenty of buffs are 24 hrs, or hr/caster level. Something that's active all day long is essentially at-will.

Gnaeus
2010-08-23, 07:59 PM
I don't see witch anywhere on the list yet. Hexes are much better than per encounter powers, since the witch can use most of them once per day on each particular target. My witch 11 has a save or (probably) die (Slumber), a save or suck (Retribution), and a save or debuff (Evil eye), all DC 23 that he can use on each opponent before he ever looks at his vancian casting.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-23, 08:19 PM
What, the truenamer is on this list, and the wizard is not? Reserve feats, alternate class features, etc enable the wizard to be pretty encounter based, if necessary. Plenty of buffs are 24 hrs, or hr/caster level. Something that's active all day long is essentially at-will.
The Truenamer can use his Utterances for as long as he can hit the DC. There's no strict limit on them.

Toptomcat
2010-08-23, 08:31 PM
Yes, many of these classes don't run on any limited resource other than HP, but frankly it's kind of a silly assumption to make that that is a less important restriction for a frontline fighter-type (as many, if not most, of these classes are) than spells per day are for a caster-type. Producing a great big list of such classes is really not very productive, because in practice they really do run out of 'fuel' on a fairly regular basis. Focusing on classes that mitigate this problem is a better idea: take, for example, the crusader as an excellent example of a class that has the potential to truly never run out of 'fuel' with its potent tanking and self-healing capabilities.
The warlock might be another, if somewhat lesser, example of such a class because of its access to wizard-like damage avoidence capabilities like flight and miss chances.

Lans
2010-08-23, 10:36 PM
Wouldn't Sanctum twinned mage's lubrication work?

EvilJoe15
2010-08-23, 10:44 PM
It's acctually Sanctum Repeated Invisible Arcane Thesis Mage's Lucubation.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-23, 10:45 PM
Focusing on classes that mitigate this problem is a better idea: take, for example, the crusader as an excellent example of a class that has the potential to truly never run out of 'fuel' with its potent tanking and self-healing capabilities.
The warlock might be another, if somewhat lesser, example of such a class because of its access to wizard-like damage avoidence capabilities like flight and miss chances.

That's a pretty legit distinction. Both those classes are frequently used in endurance test builds and such. They are, actually usable in a "don't run out of gas" fashion. Far more so than say, a fighter.

There's also the sanctum spell/grtr arcane fusion sorcerer. An infinite number of spells has to count for something when it comes to not running out of gas.

Also, strictly speaking, an artificer is limited only by his toys, which he makes himself. So, arguably, they're class features. Sure, his infusions per day are limited, but many of his abilities are not. At a minimum, he gains all sorts of crafting class features that are frequently used to make permanent use items.

Lysander
2010-08-23, 10:50 PM
Druid. While their spells are limited they can spend all day in the shape of a monstrous animal.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-08-24, 08:18 AM
Have you considered Bard 4/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Crusader 4 for your bard player?

His spells will be crap but, they'll be enough to give him some swift action buffs. If he picks up a Desert Wind manuever via martial study that his first manuever from JPM at level 7 can be fan the flames and at level 9 he can take dragon's flame, with extra granted mananuver that's blasting 2 out of three rounds if you want to.

Ranos
2010-08-24, 08:42 AM
I'd call it a toss-up. The wand is slightly cheaper, and has a higher range without taking range penalties, and can be stored in a wand chamber so that you don't have to worry about drawing equipment/switching weapons. The flasks are splash and have a higher range with range penalties.

The flasks are a lot heavier to lug around, and the wand requires UMD, but those are kind of irrelevant to a typical Rogue who has UMD anyway and carries around a lot of extradimensional storage.

The moment you reach bab+6, the flasks become a whole lot better though.

Telonius
2010-08-24, 08:47 AM
Shapeshift Druid (PHB2). While they can run out of spells, they can Shapeshift all day.

subject42
2010-08-24, 12:23 PM
Shapeshift Druid (PHB2). While they can run out of spells, they can Shapeshift all day.

Thanks, I had forgotten about that one.

Mongoose87
2010-08-24, 12:26 PM
Have you considered Bard 4/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Crusader 4 for your bard player?

His spells will be crap but, they'll be enough to give him some swift action buffs. If he picks up a Desert Wind manuever via martial study that his first manuever from JPM at level 7 can be fan the flames and at level 9 he can take dragon's flame, with extra granted mananuver that's blasting 2 out of three rounds if you want to.

Desert Wind is pretty meh. If I were him, I'd rather grab some Devoted Spirit and be the ultimate healer.

Draz74
2010-08-24, 12:36 PM
The moment you reach bab+6, the flasks become a whole lot better though.

Good point ... if you have a feat to spare on Quick Draw.