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Talon Sky
2010-08-23, 10:44 AM
Last night, one of my players (a Samurai/Iaijutsu Master with insane ranks in Iaijutsu Focus) wanted to know if it was possible to do a Double Iaijutsu....that is, attack-drawing two katana, one in each hand, at the same time. At the time, I ruled no, but told him it was because if the technique is possible, it's beyond his capability to learn without a master.

Now, he wants to quest for a master, and I'm not even sure if it's possible ;p

So that's my question to you, Playground: by the actual D&D ruleset, is a double Iaijutsu possible? Even if it's not, would you allow it simply for the rule of cool? How would you handle this?

Reynard
2010-08-23, 10:47 AM
Homebrew a feat?

dsmiles
2010-08-23, 10:50 AM
IIRC, OA says (in more words), "no."

However, via RoC (Rule of Cool), I would say, "yes," provided that he complete a solo quest for a master and spend a large amount of in game time (provided on off-gaming-days during pc downtime) mastering this technique. Essentially, homebrew a feat, and make him quest to learn it.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 10:50 AM
If he has quickdraw and two attacks (say, BAB 6+ or haste), he can do it.

Ranos
2010-08-23, 10:54 AM
If he has quickdraw and two attacks (say, BAB 6+ or haste), he can do it.
Or quickdraw and twf. You'd technically need three katanas for this one if we're going full RAW though. But yeah, it's doable.

Talon Sky
2010-08-23, 10:57 AM
Hmm, I think I will homebrew a special feat/quest for him since he does really want it, and almost never causes issues. He rarely even takes a share of the loot, simply expecting the loyalty of the other PCs when crap flies lol.

Maybe one of his ancestors mastered the move and comes to him in spirit-form, saying he has to prove himself....hmm. Okay, thanks Playground! Anyone have any particular interesting quest ideas?

Greenish
2010-08-23, 11:02 AM
Or quickdraw and twf. You'd technically need three katanas for this one if we're going full RAW though. But yeah, it's doable.Why three? If he's standing next to a flat-footed opponent, he can just draw one (free action), attack with it, draw another (free action), attack with it and be done. What's the third one for?

Ah, and technically he could just drop each katana after one hit and draw another for as many attacks as he gets.

Gryffon
2010-08-23, 11:04 AM
As an additional note on flavor/setting. If you're using Rokugan, you'd want to look into the Dragon clan, as they're the one's who traditionally use a two-handed fighting style.

Talon Sky
2010-08-23, 11:04 AM
Ah, and technically he could just drop each katana after one hit and draw another for as many attacks as he gets.

Oh God, please do not let the player read that ;p

UglyPanda
2010-08-23, 11:05 AM
I saw you should just let him do it if he has TWF. No strings attached.

Because the next simplest solution just takes one feat: Quick Draw. He draws the first sword, makes the Iatjutsu Focus check, slashes, draws the second sword, and repeats.

There is no limit to how many Iaijutsu checks you can make in a round. That's why there are Factotum Master Thrower builds.

Edit:
Ninja'd. Meh, my advice still applies.

Talon Sky
2010-08-23, 11:06 AM
As an additional note on flavor/setting. If you're using Rokugan, you'd want to look into the Dragon clan, as they're the one's who traditionally use a two-handed fighting style.

We're not. However, I did rule each Rokugani clan as a 'swordstyle', so he did have to pick his style. I think he chose Dragon anyways.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 11:22 AM
Oh God, please do not let the player read that ;pAn old favourite is the Efficient Quiver filled with (Fleshgrinding optional) katanas. :smallcool:

Ranos
2010-08-23, 11:35 AM
Why three? If he's standing next to a flat-footed opponent, he can just draw one (free action), attack with it, draw another (free action), attack with it and be done. What's the third one for?

Ah, and technically he could just drop each katana after one hit and draw another for as many attacks as he gets.

Well, the only way to activate twf is to have two weapons on hand, right ? And Iaijutsu works if you attack right after drawing. So you draw your two katanas, attack with one, drop the other, draw the third, and get your second TWF attack with it. Only way to get it to work without bab+6, I think.

Of course, that's absolutely stupid, and I'd certainly let it work with two katanas, but hey, some DMs go RAW to the point of absurdity.

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-23, 11:41 AM
Well, the only way to activate twf is to have two weapons on hand, right ?

No.

Quick Draw lets you draw a weapon as a free action. It doesn't say you have to draw both weapons at the same time if you have TWF.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 11:47 AM
Well, the only way to activate twf is to have two weapons on hand, right ?"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."

It doesn't specify when, so you don't have to start the turn with two weapons, as long as you can procure your weaponry from somewhere in time to claim the extra attack, you're entitled to it if you took the penalties.

Ranos
2010-08-23, 11:59 AM
Hm. Good to know.

Lothmar
2010-08-23, 12:45 PM
If you combine quick draw, and I believe what is it lightning draw then he can do what everyone is talking about of using quickdraw to draw as a free action and attack - but then as part of the same action he resheaths, so he can draw again next round.

Greenish
2010-08-23, 12:54 PM
If you combine quick draw, and I believe what is it lightning draw then he can do what everyone is talking about of using quickdraw to draw as a free action and attack - but then as part of the same action he resheaths, so he can draw again next round.The only RAW legal way to sheathe a weapon as a free action I know is using quickrazors. Where's Lightning Draw from?

true_shinken
2010-08-25, 10:19 AM
I find it really difficult to justify dual iaijutsu by the fluff. Iaijutsu relies primarily in the off-hand that holds the sheath and on footwork. To use it with two weapons just seems... weird.
It sure as hell works by RAW, but I'll shut up before someone says to 'refluff iaijutsu to gorgonzola power' anyway.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 10:26 AM
I find it really difficult to justify dual iaijutsu by the fluff. Iaijutsu relies primarily in the off-hand that holds the sheath and on footwork.Magic scabbard and superhuman footwork?

Alternatively, the rule of cool.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-25, 10:58 AM
As has already been mentioned, Gnomish Quickrazors are the go-to weapon for getting multiple whacks of Iaijutsu Focus in one round.

Adumbration
2010-08-25, 11:04 AM
Now I'm wondering about Gnomish Quick-katanas.

true_shinken
2010-08-25, 11:39 AM
Magic scabbard and superhuman footwork?

Alternatively, the rule of cool.

That's my point, it's not cool. I'm a huge fan of iaijutsu as a sword techniques and even the only fictional character I know that really does supernatural crazy things with iaijutsu (Himura Kenshin) still maintains the basis of the technique - thumb, sheath, footwork. He even has a 'dual iaijutsu' of sorts, but he only uses iai on the first strike (or the second, depending on the variation).
So... I find it really silly. Like I find gnome weapon abuse on iai silly. Then again, not even RAW is on my side here.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 03:34 PM
That's my point, it's not cool.That's fully subjective.

[Edit]: It should also be pointed out that D&D iaijutsu isn't exactly the same set of techniques the real thing is. D&D's iaijutsu is stated to be "the technique martial artists use to break stuff", for example.

Real life iaijutsu is closer to the feat Quick Draw, for all I can figure.

Boci
2010-08-25, 03:45 PM
That's my point, it's not cool. I'm a huge fan of iaijutsu as a sword techniques and even the only fictional character I know that really does supernatural crazy things with iaijutsu (Himura Kenshin) still maintains the basis of the technique - thumb, sheath, footwork. He even has a 'dual iaijutsu' of sorts, but he only uses iai on the first strike (or the second, depending on the variation).
So... I find it really silly. Like I find gnome weapon abuse on iai silly. Then again, not even RAW is on my side here.

The problem is if you can do extra damage by drawing a weapon, why wouldn't you carry multiple ones and just keep droping and redrawing? A quick razor at least gets rid of that tactic, which I find far more silly.

2xMachina
2010-08-25, 10:53 PM
The problem is if you can do extra damage by drawing a weapon, why wouldn't you carry multiple ones and just keep droping and redrawing? A quick razor at least gets rid of that tactic, which I find far more silly.

Magic weapons.

Cause more than 1 is expensive. And Dr/magic is pretty common.

Boci
2010-08-25, 10:57 PM
Magic weapons.

Cause more than 1 is expensive. And Dr/magic is pretty common.

Doesn't become a factor until latter in the game, and even at latter levels, having a load of +1 magic weapons is fine. You have extra gp for other items, and the loss of enchantments is made up for by IF extra damage.

2xMachina
2010-08-25, 10:59 PM
I don't think the IF damage is better than the enchantments though. Maybe ~ as good. And you're paying more.

Boci
2010-08-25, 11:00 PM
I don't think the IF damage is better than the enchantments though. Maybe ~ as good. And you're paying more.

4 +1 weapons cost as much as as a +2 weapon. What would you rather have: 3 extra doeses of IF, or +1 to hit and damage?

2xMachina
2010-08-25, 11:03 PM
+1 could be a 1d6 acid or something. And add weapon crystals.

Boci
2010-08-25, 11:05 PM
+1 could be a 1d6 acid or something. And add weapon crystals.

IF can deal more than 1d6 though and the damage is untyped, so point still stands. besides, you could also be carrying a load of mundane/masterwork weapons and using them on opponents who lack DR: magic.

Kensen
2010-08-26, 02:41 AM
That's my point, it's not cool. I'm a huge fan of iaijutsu as a sword techniques and even the only fictional character I know that really does supernatural crazy things with iaijutsu (Himura Kenshin) still maintains the basis of the technique - thumb, sheath, footwork. He even has a 'dual iaijutsu' of sorts, but he only uses iai on the first strike (or the second, depending on the variation).
So... I find it really silly. Like I find gnome weapon abuse on iai silly. Then again, not even RAW is on my side here.

Yeah, true shinken is right. The basic principle of iai is that drawing and attacking are the same action, not two separate actions. Iai is impossible if you can't pull the sheath back with your left hand.

But trying to convince D&D players that you can't do that because it doesn't work in real life is a lost cause. :smallbiggrin: The rules allow you to do a lot crazier things without even resorting to magic.

term1nally s1ck
2010-08-26, 07:03 AM
Well, since the iajutsu focus, by RAW, does damage on every attack this round provided you draw a melee weapon, all you need to do is be able to use 2 katanas at once. Oversized TWF does this perfectly, I believe.

If not, then you just need quick draw and oversized TWF.

Boci
2010-08-26, 07:06 AM
Well, since the iajutsu focus, by RAW, does damage on every attack this round provided you draw a melee weapon

Nope, just the one attack immediatly after drawing your weapon.

term1nally s1ck
2010-08-26, 07:21 AM
Page 82, note at the bottom.

"You can use your Iajutsu focus bonus damage in normal combat, too, but only if you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and you daw your weapon in the same round as you strike."

Given that that is most explicit mention of its use in normal combat, that would seem to be the rules.

The skill description mentions all 3 uses of the skill, it's not til later in the book, around page 80, where it goes into the detail on the duel and the normal combat.

Choco
2010-08-26, 08:55 AM
But trying to convince D&D players that you can't do that because it doesn't work in real life is a lost cause. :smallbiggrin:

Well there is a reason most people elect to ignore how things work in real life. What with the characters living in a world where people can shoot lightning out their asses, giant flying lizards rule the skies, and the dead walk the earth. Someone being able to do a lot of damage with multiple blades is not really all that far fetched comparatively speaking.

That being said, you can keep getting Iaijutsu damage as long as you still have a sheathed weapon to draw and attacks left in the round (and the Quick Draw feat).

Greenish
2010-08-26, 09:07 AM
Page 82, note at the bottom.

"You can use your Iajutsu focus bonus damage in normal combat, too, but only if you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and you daw your weapon in the same round as you strike."

Given that that is most explicit mention of its use in normal combat, that would seem to be the rules.The skill description says how "if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage…"

Make of it what you will, but the interpretation that only the attack right after drawing the weapon gets the bonus damage seems valid to me.

Boci
2010-08-26, 09:07 AM
Page 82, note at the bottom.

"You can use your Iajutsu focus bonus damage in normal combat, too, but only if you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and you daw your weapon in the same round as you strike."

Given that that is most explicit mention of its use in normal combat, that would seem to be the rules.

The skill description mentions all 3 uses of the skill, it's not til later in the book, around page 80, where it goes into the detail on the duel and the normal combat.

I'm do not think sidebars do not supersede origional text. The actual skill is the primary source, but I would have no objection to useing this interpretation, even though the fact that multiple attacks are never mentioned in the sidebar inidcates WotC probably just made a mistake there.

term1nally s1ck
2010-08-26, 11:08 AM
Why does that line in the skill text say anything about multiple attacks? A full-attack immediately after drawing a weapon would seem to fulfil all the text that is relevant, it's still one action.

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-26, 11:24 AM
Why does that line in the skill text say anything about multiple attacks? A full-attack immediately after drawing a weapon would seem to fulfil all the text that is relevant, it's still one action.

You are, of course, completely right. The entire D&D 3.5 fanbase is wrong. Yeah, all those people who do nothing but optimise D&D 3.5? No idea what they're talking about.

JaronK
2010-08-26, 11:27 AM
We do not speak for the entire D&D fanbase, and Arguments from Popularity are fallacious, so let's drop that right now. Me, I've always thought it was vague. I just always solve the problem with Quickrazors, since any vagueries disappear.

JaronK

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-26, 11:29 AM
A logical fallacy does not automatically make the person who makes it wrong.

Do you honestly think people who spend all their times looking for loopholes would have missed this?

HamHam
2010-08-26, 11:39 AM
Nothing says you have to have a free hand to draw a weapon. So as long as you have Quickdraw, two sheathed weapons, you can Iaijutsu with both.

Choco
2010-08-26, 12:17 PM
Nothing says you have to have a free hand to draw a weapon. So as long as you have Quickdraw, two sheathed weapons, you can Iaijutsu with both.

And if you have even more attacks left for the round and more weapons to draw you can keep getting Iaijutsu, which makes it so awesome. Dropping a weapon is a free action, and with Quick Draw so is drawing one, so you draw, strike, drop, with only the actual strike/attack costing an action. So if you have all the 2-weapon fighting feats, haste, and a 16+ BAB you can draw and attack with 8 weapons, 16 if you also have a Belt of Battle, and 32 if you also have the Palm Throw ability and are using a dagger throwing build. More than enough to turn just about any enemy you will ever face into a fine paste in the first round of combat.

term1nally s1ck
2010-08-26, 12:48 PM
A simple google search reveals about a dozen builds that use the ability to draw a single weapon then full-attack and get the bonus damage on each attack. That would suggest that 'the D&D community', especially the stronger optimisers, have already seen this, and that if you think another source of bonus damage is a huge deal for serious optimisers, you're not really among that group. Nearly any build can do hundreds and hundreds of damage, it's the more interesting things that are looked for by serious optimisation. There's a reason blasters are bad.

The quickrazor is used so that you can do it more than once, using skill tricks or maneuvers, or a few other tricks to get the enemy flat-footed.

In fact, in the OA FAQs:

Q: If a 10th-level weapon master is surrounded by, say, a
bunch of low-level thugs, is it possible to use the ki
whirlwind ability in conjunction with an iaijutsu attack if
they’re flat-footed?
A:
If you can draw the weapon during the same round you
make the ki whirlwind attack, yes.

Hey, look, multiple attacks with a single draw of the weapon. The RAW is pretty clear imo, requiring a very strange reading of the words 'immediately' and 'attack' (given that attack is pretty well defined as per invisibility, and includes the full-attack action) to get anything else.

Greenish
2010-08-26, 01:12 PM
Why does that line in the skill text say anything about multiple attacks? A full-attack immediately after drawing a weapon would seem to fulfil all the text that is relevant, it's still one action.See, if you draw a weapon, then attack with it, great.

You attack against with the same weapon? Well, it's not immediately after drawing a weapon this time, though it can be immediately after attacking.

[Edit]: Ki whirlwind is a single action, but a full attack consists of several attack actions (each of which can be substituted by, say, a trip, sunder or disarm attempt).

2xMachina
2010-08-26, 01:25 PM
But isn't a full attack A single Full round action?

Greenish
2010-08-26, 01:33 PM
But isn't a full attack A single Full round action?Yeah. One that contains several attack actions. Besides, it's not full attack until after the first hit. :smalltongue:

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

JaronK
2010-08-26, 01:34 PM
A logical fallacy does not automatically make the person who makes it wrong.

Of course not. Such a claim would be a fallacy fallacy! But at the same time, I don't like seeing fallacies being tossed around. It kills decent debate and leads to group think.


Do you honestly think people who spend all their times looking for loopholes would have missed this?

I've actually seen this one come up a number of times, usually with the argument that he's using right now... a full attack is a single action (that takes a full round). You're making it immediately after drawing the weapon assuming you quickdraw the weapon and full round attack. Ergo you're meeting the requirements of the feat. Frankly, it seems relatively reasonable, though I can also understand the counter argument (that only the first attack was made immediately after). Unfortunately, D&D doesn't actually have a given definition for what "immediately after" means. Until the end of the round is actually a reasonable definition to make.

JaronK

Choco
2010-08-26, 02:31 PM
I've actually seen this one come up a number of times, usually with the argument that he's using right now... a full attack is a single action (that takes a full round). You're making it immediately after drawing the weapon assuming you quickdraw the weapon and full round attack. Ergo you're meeting the requirements of the feat. Frankly, it seems relatively reasonable, though I can also understand the counter argument (that only the first attack was made immediately after). Unfortunately, D&D doesn't actually have a given definition for what "immediately after" means. Until the end of the round is actually a reasonable definition to make.

JaronK

This is definitely all up to the DM, so in a case like that the optimum solution is to use things like quickrazors or multiple weapons which remove the ambiguity from the equation. That way it does not matter which side of the debate your DM happens to fall on, because you have effectively removed the need to have it.

If you show up to the game with a build that relies on a DM considering a full round action to be "immediately after" drawing the weapon and he agrees then you set. If he is on the other side of the debate however you are kinda hosed. Show up with quickrazors or carry huge quantities of weapons however, and your build now works with either DM, no crappy rule ambiguity to deal with.

Talon Sky
2010-08-26, 03:22 PM
And if you have even more attacks left for the round and more weapons to draw you can keep getting Iaijutsu, which makes it so awesome. Dropping a weapon is a free action, and with Quick Draw so is drawing one, so you draw, strike, drop, with only the actual strike/attack costing an action. So if you have all the 2-weapon fighting feats, haste, and a 16+ BAB you can draw and attack with 8 weapons, 16 if you also have a Belt of Battle, and 32 if you also have the Palm Throw ability and are using a dagger throwing build. More than enough to turn just about any enemy you will ever face into a fine paste in the first round of combat.

*cries* Never again will I watch Zatoichi the same....

JaronK
2010-08-26, 04:53 PM
This is definitely all up to the DM, so in a case like that the optimum solution is to use things like quickrazors or multiple weapons which remove the ambiguity from the equation. That way it does not matter which side of the debate your DM happens to fall on, because you have effectively removed the need to have it.

Which is why this debate doesn't come up often. It's not that everybody has the consensus that you can only make one attack after drawing the weapon that actually gets the bonus... it's that it's vague and poorly written, and there's an easy way to get around the vagueness, so we might as well just do that and forget about it.

JaronK

Person_Man
2010-08-26, 05:33 PM
It can definitely be done with a Gnomish Quickrazor or by drawing multiple weapons (and dropping them as needed). With the right feats or exotic weapons (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526), you can also Trip, Disarm, and Grapple your enemy as part of the same attacks. It's actually a pretty decent alternative to the standard ubercharger build, especially at mid levels.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-26, 07:55 PM
Improved Iaijutsu Focus [Epic]

The maximum bonus damage you gain for using Iaijutsu Focus increases.

Prerequisite: Iaijutsu Focus 27 ranks.

Benefit: The extra damage you inflict when you make an Iaijutsu Focus check no longer has a maximum die cap. The progression of extra damage continues indefinitely, increasing by +1d6 for every 5 points over a result of 10 you receive on the check. For example, an Iaijutsu Focus check of 76 would inflict +14d6 points of damage.

Normal: Without this feat, the most extra damage you can gain with an Iaijutsu Focus check is +9d6.
Echoes of the Edge (Su): At 11th level, the epic iaijutsu master gains the ability to strike at a creature an additional time as a free action, as long as she successfully damages the target on the initial strike. This additional attack is resolved at the character's highest base attack bonus and must be directed at the same creature the character's previous attack struck; the strike lands on precisely the same location as the cut before, but slices yet deeper. If this strike hits, it deals an amount of damage equal to the previous strike. If the previous strike was a critical hit, this free strike is a critical hit as well and it inflicts the same damage as the prior strike. An epic iaijutsu master may use echoes of the edge only once per round and only once per day. At 14th level, and again at every 3 levels thereafter, she may perform an echo of the edge an additional time each day.
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a

term1nally s1ck
2010-08-27, 05:29 AM
...your point with those?

Drawing a weapon is usually a move action. you can't draw a weapon then take a full-attack, unless you have quick draw. Those abilities allow an epic Iajutsu master to attack basically twice when charging/moving, and he first one is just increasing the extra damage per hit. Unless you're arguing that they can only normally do 9d6 extra damage per encounter, or something else silly.

As for Ki whirlwind?

Ki whirlwind lets you make a whirlwind attack as a standard rather than a full-round.

Whirlwind attack is an adapted full-attack. It even says in the text 'When performing a full-attack...'

So, we know that every attack in a Ki-Whirlwind gets the bonus damage.

The Ki-Whirlwind is an adjusted Full-Attack action, that attacks all enemies you threaten once, and further only takes a standard action to use.

From this, we can directly deduce that using a standard whirlwind attack, a single action that contains multiple attacks, also includes the bonus damage *if* you draw the weapon in the same round.

But the whirlwind attack *is* a full-attack. Hence, Iajutsu focus works on every attack taken in the same round as you draw a melee weapon. (Hell, RAW, it doesn't even have to be the same weapon that you're attacking with.)

This would seem to be completely incontrovertible evidence. I'm interested to see what you can say to counter this point...Ki whirlwind IS a whirlwind attack, as it says in the text. Whirlwind atttack IS a full attack, as it says in the text. If it works for any of them, it must work on all of them.

Boci
2010-08-27, 05:51 AM
This would seem to be completely incontrovertible evidence.

FAQ are not RAW? So it helps your case, but it doesn't constitute "incontrovertible evidence".


I'm interested to see what you can say to counter this point...Ki whirlwind IS a whirlwind attack, as it says in the text. Whirlwind atttack IS a full attack, as it says in the text. If it works for any of them, it must work on all of them.

I'm not too sure this reverse engeneering works. Even if we assume that IF does work on whirlwind, it is still never mentioned that it works on full attacks, and the two things are different. One could even argue that since they specifically mention ki whirlwind as being okay, other forms of multiple attack are not.
You loose invisibility after the first attack of a the first attack of a full round action after all. Come to think of it, how does regular invisibility and whirlwind combine?

term1nally s1ck
2010-08-27, 06:12 AM
Whirlwind attack:

Benefit

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

It *is* a full-attack. You take the full-attack action to use it.

The problem we have here is that I'm using the sidebar on page 82 as a more specific source, using the basic rule of specific trumps general. You're trying to claim that the 'primary source' rule means that we should use the text within the skill.

The problem I have with that is that the text within the skill is ambiguous. 'immediately after' means very little, and could be anything from 'within the next round' to 'with no other action inbetween'

And, on top of that, 'attack' is pretty well defined, and includes the full-attack action, AND the whirlwind attack full-attack, which does *not* allow you to make the decision after one attack.

If one source is ambiguous, then you look at something else for clarification. Page 82 is very very specific, and not ambiguous in the slightest, and supports my view on the matter.

What you're trying to do is use the primary source rule to have the skill description take precedence, and then use a very sketchy interpretation of more than one term in that text to get the meaning you want out of it.

(Regular invisibility+whirlwind works the same way as a normal full attack. You make the attacks one by one, and only the first gains the bonuses for being invisible.)

Greenish
2010-08-27, 08:03 AM
The problem we have here is that I'm using the sidebar on page 82 as a more specific source, using the basic rule of specific trumps general. You're trying to claim that the 'primary source' rule means that we should use the text within the skill.

If one source is ambiguous, then you look at something else for clarification. Page 82 is very very specific, and not ambiguous in the slightest, and supports my view on the matter.The box on page 82 seems to go to some length to avoid discussing full attacks. It starts, however, with "…as long as you draw your weapon on the same round as you strike" which seems to refer to single hit.

Your interpretation may well be correct, but it's hardly the only valid one.

[Edit]: And in the skill description itself, "if you attack blah blah… you can deal extra damage based on the result of Iaijutsu Focus check". Since full attack is a single action, well, it only deals the extra damage once.

FMArthur
2010-08-27, 08:22 PM
Guys, I think if you're going to say that the whole full attack action is that single attack that benefits from Iaijutsu Focus immediately after drawing... what makes you think it gets added to every individual component attack in your full attack separately? Are you saying that your full attack is just separate enough to benefit from IF on every attack within it, but just unified enough that the whole full attack is counted as one attack for the purpose of meeting the "immediately after" condition? IF doesn't make mention of actions, just attacks. All individual attacks within a full attack are treated as separate attacks for every other ability except when abilities specify otherwise.

I would houserule to allow it all on a full attack, but I consider such a thing unmistakably a houserule. By the rules of the game though, Iaijutsu Focus is only truly powerful with Quickrazors or that magic Dragonlance sheath mentioned a couple times that even Google denies the existance of. :smallconfused:

DaragosKitsune
2010-08-28, 02:04 AM
I probably wouldn't allow it on every hit for a full attack, but I would definitely apply it on every hit of a Whirlwind Attack. Why? Mainly due to the mental image Whirlwind Attack gives me. One slash hitting multiple enemies in a circle.