Neverwinter: Just-announced 4e CRPG! [2011] [Archive]

Comet

2010-08-23, 11:52 AM

Neverwinter, coming 2011! (http://kotaku.com/5619535/return-to-neverwinter-in-2011)

Discuss.

Personally I'm staying far, far away from it because it uses 4e rules. Bleh.

Personally, I'm really glad they are making this game. Because 4e has awesome potential for a video game and R.A Salvatore hasn't gotten enough video game love in a long while, despite his style being a pretty good fit for any game.

But the wordings in that article make it sound a bit like a classic (read: boring) MMO. And that's not something I have even the mildest interest in playing. I really hope they'll keep the online worlds relatively small and extensively customisable, like in NWN 1 and 2.

I'd really like to see an awesome 4th edition computer game. Fingers crossed this will be it.

Rustic Dude

2010-08-23, 12:00 PM

Not looking good. My Persistant World chaps will not be amused.

If they are going to change pretty much the heart of the Neverwinter Nights saga (3.5, variety, tradition, not-ruined Neverwinter) they could do a separated spinoff instead.

Kish

2010-08-23, 12:18 PM

Does this look terribly appealing to me? No, for multiple reasons.

Was there ever a chance, even a minuscule chance, that any future D&D CRPGs would use 3.xed rules, from the moment 4ed came out? Not a bit of it. I'm puzzled that people are acting surprised by that aspect. There will never be any more 3.xed CRPGs (or 2ed ones, or 1ed ones).

Dogmantra

2010-08-23, 12:34 PM

I've always wondered if there was a 4e CRPG. Yay.

Zombimode

2010-08-23, 12:57 PM

Well, before you all go nuts, you may find this interview (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinter/news.html?sid=6274162&mode=previews) interessting.

Based on this interview Neverwinter will likely be a fantasy game with a rules system based on D&D 4e.
It will however NOT be a conversion of 4e for the PC in any shape or form. So no, Neverwinter is not Temple of Elemental Evil 4e. It will probably even further away from the base system than the original NWN1/2 were from 3e/3.5

Besides this guy doesnt know what he is talking about. Action points let you reroll?
:smallsigh:

Uhm... pass.

dsmiles

2010-08-23, 01:10 PM

I dislike the part where he says that playing solo will be harder than co-op. If I want to play co-op DnD, I'll play tabletop DnD. Playing video games, for me, is a break from ttrpg-ing, giving me and the players a chance to recharge and take a break from each other. Again, I say:

Bleh.

AlterForm

2010-08-23, 03:28 PM

Neverwinter is all about the Heroic levels.

My Response:

Bleh.

The only shred of anything keeping me slightly interested in this at all is a morbid curiosity to see how badly they manage to mangle the 4e ruleset.

athanis

2010-08-23, 03:53 PM

Cryptic is doing the game, so better not expect too much (remember Champions and StarTrek Online). And CoX went better went they left.
So, not many hopes there.:smallmad:

Ranielle

2010-08-23, 03:57 PM

yey hot elf men!

MachineWraith

2010-08-23, 04:14 PM

Cryptic is doing the game, so better not expect too much (remember Champions and StarTrek Online). And CoX went better went they left.
So, not many hopes there.:smallmad:

Yeah, Champions Online left a really bad taste in my mouth. Died very quickly. I've always really like the whole superhero thing, and I played CoH forever because it was the only option. I got caught up in the hype for Champs, and ended up (I feel) wasting a lot of money.

I'll keep my eye on this, but I'll be waiting a bare minimum of 3 months after release to consider picking it up.

J.Gellert

2010-08-23, 04:34 PM

If it has the multiplayer of NWN1, I might consider it.

Even so, considering Atari's recent history, the fact that I hold a burning hatred for 4E, and the interesting bit that the only thing I hate even more than 4E is 4E Forgotten Realms... I'm probably staying away.

I thank Bloodlines (when was it, 2004?) for first teaching me that there are great RPGs that don't bear a "D&D" brand. I have the Witcher and Dragon Age sequels to look forward to, who needs a new Neverwinter?

Rule of the city remains unclear following the unfortunate demise of the last Lord of Neverwinter and factions still battle for dominance after the all-consuming Spellplague took a high toll on the population. Even Neverwinter’s dead are beginning to rise from their graves and march upon the city they once called home.

That's original :smalltongue: I see your 3 months and raise you to waiting 6 months after release to try it out.

Castaras

2010-08-23, 05:10 PM

Meh, looking at that interview I'm once again sticking with NWN1 for my online D&D.

Neo

2010-08-23, 06:00 PM

nah, i'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt.

Not gonna lambast a game with almost no real info based on opinions of a pnp ruleset.

junglesteve

2010-08-23, 09:03 PM

NWN2 was pretty ****ty I dont expect this to be any better, especially with 4e.

Zevox

2010-08-23, 09:30 PM

Even though I liked the Neverwinter Nights games, particularly Mask of the Betrayer, I'm not touching this one. I'm uninterested in 4e to begin with, but I hate what 4e did to the Forgotten Realms, and will not purchase anything associated with the setting post-4e.

Zevox

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-08-23, 09:39 PM

I want to like this. I really really do. I've been playing Neverwinter Nights 2 for the past month (I'm in the middle of the Storm of Zehir campaign), and I love the setting and games. But it's an MMORPG. I do not play MMORPGs. I really want to know what happens to Neverwinter, but MMORPGs always fall flat on their face when it comes to telling a story. :smallsigh:

dsmiles

2010-08-24, 04:23 AM

That's original :smalltongue: I see your 3 months and raise you to waiting 6 months after release to try it out.

6 months? I'll see your six months and raise you waiting until it's on the clearance rack.

Avilan the Grey

2010-08-24, 05:02 AM

A few years ago I would have jumped on this, but now I have a life and a budget to stick to.

With these games coming out, there is absolutely no room for this game:

Fallout: New Vegas (must-have)
The Golems of ? for Dragon age (must-have)
The Shadow-Broker DLC for ME2 (must-have)
Dragon Age II (pre-order must-have! NOW!!!)
A number of yet unknown DLCs for DA2 (maybe)

...I will have no time nor money to invest in this game.

Badgerish

2010-08-24, 05:43 AM

I like 4ed and the post-spellplague forgotten realms... however, this interview leaves me cold.

I'm expecting a new statement in a few days that apologises for this interview and explains things better.

Only 4 classes? What. The. Hell!?!

Zen Master

2010-08-24, 05:58 AM

For a CRPG, the rules behind the engine are pretty much irrelevant to me. On a computer, I want something that works, without even the smallest hitch, ever. I believe 4e is far better suited for this than 3e. I belive, frankly, that this is the main point of making 4e the way it is in the first place.

So ... I'm optimistic. Of course it's possible to mess anything up horribly, and it seems to be becoming a tradition - but I still maintain hope for good stuff :)

Zombimode

2010-08-24, 07:25 AM

Only 4 classes? What. The. Hell!?!

5 classes actually: the iconics: Fighter, Mage, Thief Rogue, Cleric; plus the Ranger, because .. you know... R.A. Salvatore

I'm expecting a new statement in a few days that apologises for this interview and explains things better.

Well, they did... somehow (http://www.massively.com/2010/08/23/massively-exclusive-jack-emmert-speaks-about-neverwinter-and-a/). Wether that makes it better or worse I leave up to you to decide.

potatocubed

2010-08-24, 07:36 AM

Pro: It's got a content-creation tool.

Con: Cryptic are dreadful.
Con: Doesn't support single-player, at least not very well.
Con: Bog all content to start with, more added later. (It didn't work for Champions online, I fail to see why it'll work now.)

...I'll be giving this one a miss, I think, unless I see a lot of good custom content.

king.com

2010-08-24, 07:50 AM

Daremonai

2010-08-24, 11:49 AM

My reactions:

Initial - Hmm, interesting.

After reading the thread: Well, everyone said that 4e was videogamey - perhaps it'll work quite well on a PC.

After reading the interview: "must log into a server to play"? Not even the full suite of PHB1 classes supported? Well, looks like I can probably rule out multiclassing too (a must for me in any class-based game).

Thanks, but no thanks.

Dogmantra

2010-08-24, 11:58 AM

5 classes actually: the iconics: Fighter, Mage, Thief Rogue, Cleric; plus the Ranger, because .. you know... R.A. Salvatore

Oh wow.
I just lost all interest in this game.

Deathdarken

2010-08-24, 11:58 AM

like the 3.5 version and I hated 3.5 in DnD so 4.0 should be kick ass

Autarkhos

2010-08-24, 03:07 PM

Essentially, this game is going to rape every franchise involved. 4e, NWN, Forgotten Realms... Yeah.

WitchSlayer

2010-08-24, 03:12 PM

KBF

2010-08-24, 03:13 PM

{Scrubbed}

Irbis

2010-08-24, 04:45 PM

MachineWraith

2010-08-24, 05:26 PM

{Scrubbed}

I earned my Cryptic hate with a lifetime sub to Champions, thank you very much. Sometimes I hate being an impulse buyer.

WitchSlayer

2010-08-24, 05:58 PM

Um... how come everyone is criticizing it for being 4th Ed, when half of you people play Dragon Age, essentially 4th edition ripoff, a game that is so popular that is on the sixth thread here? :smallconfused:

Hmmm, does not compute.

As for me, it's wait and see.

Makes me wonder if when they convert 4e into a game whether or not they'll add in mana and "energy" or if they'll leave it true 4e with nothing of the sort.

Daremonai

2010-08-24, 06:53 PM

I'm not criticising it for being 4e - as any said during the earlier parts of the 3.x/4e edition wars, 4e seems ideally suited to the CRPG world.

What I'm taking issue with is the forced online aspect and the fact that it won't even contain the basic list of classes - I may be jumping to conclusions, but it doesn't bode well for how the rest of the ruleset is being handled. Already there are suggestions that will run a "simplified" version of the rules - that may mean something simple like "rituals are clunky - we won't bother", or it may mean "we couldn't be bothered to implement half the feats, and most of the powers for the classes we did do are missing too. Also, the encounter/daily powers use a spellpoint mechanic as well as the timer." These are, after all, the same people that shipped a pair of half-finished MMOs.

Now, this is a pessimistic view, and I'd dearly love to be proven wrong on release day. My cash will stay firmly in pocket otherwise.

king.com

2010-08-24, 07:43 PM

Um... how come everyone is criticizing it for being 4th Ed, when half of you people play Dragon Age, essentially 4th edition ripoff, a game that is so popular that is on the sixth thread here? :smallconfused:

Hmmm, does not compute.

As for me, it's wait and see.

I criticize it because i dont want to be online for some sort of mish-mash OMG type game they are making. Plus i dont really expect too much from cryptic (also no sorcerer!) but ill wait and see.

dsmiles

2010-08-24, 07:48 PM

{scrubbed}

I really want my computer games as alone time. I get enough social interaction at work, and with TTRPGs. Like DnD. 4th edition. With live people. And some noms.

JadedDM

2010-08-24, 08:58 PM

Bleh.

I love how this sums up the majority of opinions given so far on this game here.

Was there ever a chance, even a minuscule chance, that any future D&D CRPGs would use 3.xed rules, from the moment 4ed came out? Not a bit of it. I'm puzzled that people are acting surprised by that aspect. There will never be any more 3.xed CRPGs (or 2ed ones, or 1ed ones).

Could Castles and Crusades or Pathfinder or OSRIC license video games? Or would that still not work?

Eldritch Knight

2010-08-24, 09:02 PM

I'm leaning towards staying away from it due to it being produced by Cryptic Studios..

Flickerdart

2010-08-24, 10:25 PM

Lord Raziere

2010-08-25, 01:42 AM

I love how this sums up the majority of opinions given so far on this game here.

I have a dissenting opinion:

Yurr.

Zombimode

2010-08-25, 03:30 AM

Um... how come everyone is criticizing it for being 4th Ed, when half of you people play Dragon Age, essentially 4th edition ripoff, a game that is so popular that is on the sixth thread here? :smallconfused:

Hmmm, does not compute.

As for me, it's wait and see.

No, Im critizing it precisely because it wont feature D&D 4e. It will feature a system that is somehow inspired by 4e (or in other words: it will feature a butchered version of 4e). For starters, Neverwinter will not be turn based.

J.Gellert

2010-08-25, 03:36 AM

It's not about the rules at all. It's about the setting. 4E Forgotten Realms are not to my liking at all - Thedas is much more interesting. Don't forget that 4E did not change the "numbers" alone, they changed much of the fluff as well.

I don't think Dragon Age is a 4E ripoff, but in any case it's a different system. The Witcher was different too. I don't mind trying new rulesets if I can still get Humans, Elves, and Dwarves (or the occassional badass mutant sorcerer).

Irbis

2010-08-25, 03:38 AM

It seems to be a trend with Bioware - make a great game, have Obsidian butcher the sequel and then waste the third on an MMO. First KotOR and now Neverwinter Nights...taking all bets on the next game to suffer.

Yeah, they butchered them so badly that KotOR 2 and Mask of the Betrayer were far superior to part one :smallsigh:

After reading the interview: "must log into a server to play"? Not even the full suite of PHB1 classes supported? Well, looks like I can probably rule out multiclassing too (a must for me in any class-based game).

[cough] DA:O had a grand total of 3 classes, and no one cared [cough]

As I said, wait and see for me.

dsmiles

2010-08-25, 04:12 AM

I have a dissenting opinion:

Yurr.

I see your "Yurr," and raise you a "Derp."

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs029.snc1/4291_75787143806_75785153806_1890923_3368373_n.jpg

VanBuren

2010-08-25, 04:14 AM

I disagree that KotOR 2 was better (nor do I agree that it was awful. It was good, just not as good as 1) but MotB was way better than anything NWN1 had.

WitchSlayer

2010-08-25, 06:09 AM

According to an article from Massively, they plan to add more classes and races at a later date.

king.com

2010-08-25, 09:12 AM

According to an article from Massively, they plan to add more classes and races at a later date.

Dont say DLC, dont say DLC, dont say DLC.

Flickerdart

2010-08-25, 10:54 AM

I disagree that KotOR 2 was better (nor do I agree that it was awful. It was good, just not as good as 1) but MotB was way better than anything NWN1 had.
Just because MotB was good doesn't mean that the vanilla NWN2 wasn't balls-to-the-wall terrible.

Mando Knight

2010-08-25, 10:54 AM

It seems to be a trend with Bioware - make a great game, have Obsidian butcher the sequel and then waste the third on an MMO. First KotOR and now Neverwinter Nights...taking all bets on the next game to suffer.

Place ya bets! Front-runners are Dragon Age and Mass Effect! Place ya bets! :smalltongue:

With the "iconic" classes being the first ones out of the gate, it dawned on me that it's likely they're basing those classes on the Essentials versions of the classes, and that older classes will likely be either unlockable or DLC.

dsmiles

2010-08-25, 11:26 AM

Place ya bets! Front-runners are Dragon Age and Mass Effect! Place ya bets! :smalltongue:

With the "iconic" classes being the first ones out of the gate, it dawned on me that it's likely they're basing those classes on the Essentials versions of the classes, and that older classes will likely be either unlockable or DLC.

I'm still not getting ranger as iconic. Yeah, Drizzt is a ranger, but iconic, to me are: Cleric, Fighter, Magic-User, Paladin, Thief

potatocubed

2010-08-25, 12:30 PM

If the game ships, as mentioned by Jack Emmert, with a content creator, Cryptic are going to have to move like greased leopards to make new classes available as DLC before someone else does it.

It's a big 'if', though: Mr. Emmert typically says this sort of thing without the faintest idea of what he's saying or what the rest of the company is doing. (I'd refer you to his posts on the CoH forums, but they were all deleted.)

VanBuren

2010-08-25, 12:48 PM

Just because MotB was good doesn't mean that the vanilla NWN2 wasn't balls-to-the-wall terrible.

People forget that NWN1 was balls to the wall terrible until the its expansions too.

Morty

2010-08-25, 12:50 PM

Personally, I enjoyed NWN1 more than NWN2. However, it was most likely because I was younger and more enthusiastic when I played NWN1. Still, NWN2 isn't really better than NWN1. At least the toolset was easier to use in the first game.

Rustic Dude

2010-08-25, 12:57 PM

People forget that NWN1 was balls to the wall terrible until the its expansions too.

Agreed. NWN2 OC was bland. NWN1 OC was bland and boring.

Still, NWN2 isn't really better than NWN1. At least the toolset was easier to use in the first game.

But it is also much more powerful, just like the SC2 editor when compared to the SC1 one.
It isn't too skill demanding anyway. I learnt its basic, regular use in four days, enough to map and make custom gear for a PW.

VanBuren

2010-08-25, 01:11 PM

Jane_Smith

2010-08-25, 01:25 PM

This game will suck for more reasons then its worth. And it will likely cost a small fortune to play. Sorry, i aint wasting money on it. Hell, id rather stick with NWN1-NWN2. If I want to play a mmorpg? Ill stick to wow. This, isnt, worth it. At all.

Look, ill admit? I hate 4.0. I wish every book on it would suddenly find its ways to bowels of hell to burn for an eternity (along with the authors/developers of it). HOWEVER, sense that isnt going to happen anytime soon, THE LEAST THEY COULD DO IS ACTUALLY USE THE DERPING RULES INSTEAD OF BUTCHERING THEM INTO A HALF-ARSED PILE OF A CRAP! It isnt "based on 4e", it 'wishs' it could be 4e. So despite my feelings on that ruleset - i will despise this game even more if they use '1/3rd of it' instead of all of it.

So my final opinion: I give this a 1 out of 10. Burn it. Burn it to -ash-.

Derthric

2010-08-25, 02:48 PM

The amount of tedium and inexcusable lacklusterness of Cryptic's latest outings I wouldn't even double click on a screenshot of this game.

Hey Cryptic, get your captains in STO to sit properly in their chairs, or learn that true content isn't simply reskinning something and charging for it.

So Cryptic fool me once, so Frak you.

Trixie

2010-08-25, 05:20 PM

I disagree that KotOR 2 was better (nor do I agree that it was awful. It was good, just not as good as 1)

Thank LA for that, what the Obsidian intended was far better.

And Kreia simply rules :P

Just because MotB was good doesn't mean that the vanilla NWN2 wasn't balls-to-the-wall terrible.

Ever played NWN1? :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2010-08-25, 05:29 PM

Ever played NWN1? :smalltongue:
Yes. It was tolerable, it had Deekin, reasonable load times and a graphics engine that didn't demand ridiculous things for its paltry results.

Kish

2010-08-25, 05:53 PM

Agreed. NWN2 OC was bland. NWN1 OC was bland and boring.
It was, however, possible to play NWN1, whereas, in my (apparently neither unique nor universal, from previous goarounds on this topic) experience, the AI in NWN2 often leads to the NPCs who can join you belaying whatever orders you gave them--in favor of "do what I want to do anyway" if they're not in puppet mode, or in favor of "drool on my shoes" if they are.

Truwar

2010-08-25, 06:00 PM

But it is also much more powerful, just like the SC2 editor when compared to the SC1 one.
It isn't too skill demanding anyway. I learnt its basic, regular use in four days, enough to map and make custom gear for a PW.

It WAS more powerful but if you lose a substantial chunk of the people that create custom content because it the tools are harder to use, it is a net loss.

J.Gellert

2010-08-25, 06:05 PM

Yes. It was tolerable, it had Deekin, reasonable load times and a graphics engine that didn't demand ridiculous things for its paltry results.

Wait, I am confused... Deekin is a good thing? Or reasonable load times are bad?

VanBuren

2010-08-25, 06:24 PM

It was, however, possible to play NWN1, whereas, in my (apparently neither unique nor universal, from previous goarounds on this topic) experience, the AI in NWN2 often leads to the NPCs who can join you belaying whatever orders you gave them--in favor of "do what I want to do anyway" if they're not in puppet mode, or in favor of "drool on my shoes" if they are.

Clearly someone never used Boddyknock as their OC henchman.

Kish

2010-08-25, 07:44 PM

Only very briefly, when I wanted that obnoxious spider nuked down, and again when I wanted the swords in Halueth Never's crypt fireballed.

In any event, I used a henchman NPC AI mod in NWN1. If someone can point me to a "they actually do what they're told" mod for NWN2, I'll never call the game a ridiculously overpriced coaster again. :smalltongue:

Deekin was occasionally touching, especially in HotU, mostly annoying in Shadows of Undrentide, and is in any event also present in NWN2.

VanBuren

2010-08-25, 07:46 PM

SmartAlec

2010-08-25, 07:49 PM

it had Deekin

Deekin was expansion pack material. Not sure if you could get the full NWN1 experience without uninstalling the game and just installing the original, unpatched. The quests are samey, the plot is deranged, the areas are blocky and uninspired compared to almost everything that came later, the direction and voice acting is absurdly variable, it didn't have the benefit of sixty-two patches keeping it stable, augh...

Kish

2010-08-25, 07:50 PM

Two possible angles of response to that. The one I'm picking is: See, while the hirelings in NWN1 were undeniably stupid, they didn't make the game actually unplayable, even without the AI mod.

(The runn??er-up was, "Not if the substance of the complaint is 'it was possible to mod out the problems in NWN1, and doesn't appear to be in NWN2.'klj :smalltongue: However, it is possible this NWN2 mod fixes the drool-on-their-shoes behavior.)

Complimentary editing of this post provided by my cat.

SmartAlec

2010-08-25, 07:51 PM

NWN2 gave you something NWN1 never could - the ability to completely turn off companion AI and control them all Baldur's Gate style.

Kish

2010-08-25, 07:53 PM

NWN2 gave you something NWN1 never could - the ability to completely turn off companion AI and control them all Baldur's Gate style.
And I was really excited about that, until I realized that, as stated above, they'd still randomly belay my orders in favor of drooling on their shoes.

...Oops, I just realized, this is all off-topic for this thread, isn't it? I shall desist.

SmartAlec

2010-08-25, 07:56 PM

And I was really excited about that, until I realized that, as stated above, they'd still randomly belay my orders in favor of drooling on their shoes.

Still preferable to the lunacy of the NWN1 henchmen.

Anyway. Cautiously optimistic, here. 4th Ed combat rules are an excellent team-tactics game and hopefully, they can get that aspect into this.

J.Gellert

2010-08-26, 02:06 AM

I didn't mind the henchmen from NWN2. I had Puppet Mode off, and I was playing exactly as if it was Baldur's Gate - Top Down camera, and PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE every half a second. Everyone had an order on what to do next just as soon as they were finishing their current action.

It worked very well, but I guess the problem is NWN2 wasn't really made for this. You had to play with the options and settings. NWN2 gave you so many different options for cameras and controls that if you didn't really delve into it, it would be clunky.

Yes it has its bugs, but don't forget that when NWN1 came out, it was also very bugged. The problem was that a "fresh" NWN2 could never hope to stand up to a fully updated and modded NWN1.

If you look at it from a single-player perspective, NWN1 has nothing on NWN2. Mask of the Betrayer was one of the best RPGs of all time. Even if you forget about expansions, the NWN2 campaign may be silly and filled with "why can't I get over this stupid door?" but it still beats the NWN1 campaign in every aspect. (NWN1 had the same problem and much more).

Also, I hate Deekin. Can you honestly blame me? :smalltongue:

Avilan the Grey

2010-08-26, 04:29 AM

Yes. It was tolerable, it had Deekin, reasonable load times and a graphics engine that didn't demand ridiculous things for its paltry results.

Actually it did. Computers that could run Oblivion on mid-settings struggled with NWN1 on lowest settings. Mostly because of an over-ambitious ambient lighting, which good-looking, did not hide the fact that the character models were a number of shoe boxes on top of eachother.

VanBuren

2010-08-26, 04:40 AM

Actually it did. Computers that could run Oblivion on mid-settings struggled with NWN1 on lowest settings. Mostly because of an over-ambitious ambient lighting, which good-looking, did not hide the fact that the character models were a number of shoe boxes on top of eachother.

I always thought they were more like legos, myself.

potatocubed

2010-08-26, 05:40 AM

But it is also much more powerful, just like the SC2 editor when compared to the SC1 one.

It isn't too skill demanding anyway. I learnt its basic, regular use in four days, enough to map and make custom gear for a PW.

The problem with the NWN2 editor wasn't so much the skill it demanded, it was its bug-riddled nature. At various times over the past few years, the following have all been true:

The autosave feature actually crashed the editor and deleted your work.
Previewing the wrong in-game model crashed the editor and deleted your work.
...when previewing worked at all.
Running the editor corrupted core files and made the game unplayable.
The editor couldn't access core files and could not be opened.
Saving an area deleted a random selection of the placeables in it.
Once, the editor not only crashed and deleted my work, it corrupted all the backups I had in the same directory.

All of these were fixed in patches sooner or later, but it's a miracle there was any custom content at all.

Oh, and every time the editor was patched all the custom plugins died until their creator updated them.

Eliirae

2010-08-26, 08:47 AM

Also, I hate Deekin. Can you honestly blame me? :smalltongue:

Yes, yes I can.

:P

Breltar

2010-08-26, 10:01 AM

The problem with the NWN2 editor wasn't so much the skill it demanded, it was its bug-riddled nature. At various times over the past few years, the following have all been true:

The autosave feature actually crashed the editor and deleted your work.
Previewing the wrong in-game model crashed the editor and deleted your work.
...when previewing worked at all.
Running the editor corrupted core files and made the game unplayable.
The editor couldn't access core files and could not be opened.
Saving an area deleted a random selection of the placeables in it.
Once, the editor not only crashed and deleted my work, it corrupted all the backups I had in the same directory.

All of these were fixed in patches sooner or later, but it's a miracle there was any custom content at all.

Oh, and every time the editor was patched all the custom plugins died until their creator updated them.

I have played both NWN1 and 2 since the release and never had any of that happen with 2, though I will admit turning off the auto save as soon as I found out about it.

The editor in NWN2 was more complex but so much more detail could be put in that it blows the NWN1 editor out of the water. NWN1 is great for folks that can't be bothered to learn a complex editor system, but the one in 2 allowed for things that were virtually impossible in 1.

For reference I built a 1200 area persistent world in NWN1 and a 400 area persistent world in NWN2.

With Storm of Zehir and its interactive world map I think NWN2 got where most of us always wished NWN1 would have gotten to. Bar some really strange setups you could represent most fantasy settings with NWN2 fairly easily or find mods that would allow you to.

This new Neverwinter is in effect a departure from the pure player run worlds in that now you must be logged onto Cryptics servers which I am going to assume gives them the right to delete your work at will. I don't for-see there ever being persistent worlds again in the Neverwinter series of games.

This is an MMO without calling it an MMO due to Atari's legal issues with Turbine.

Rustic Dude

2010-08-26, 11:29 AM

VanBuren

2010-08-26, 12:42 PM

So to promote the game (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Feature.aspx?x=dnd/feature/neverwinter), WotC has released a sample chapter of R.A. Salvatore's book (http://www.wizardsofthecoast-digital.com/wizardsofthecoast/neverwinter_book1#pg1)

Neverwinter, also known as the Jewel of the North, or the City of Skilled Hands, for its famous craftsfolk, was named by its founder, Halueth Never. It is said that Halueth Never was pursued to the coast by orcs and chose to make his last stand on the site where Neverwinter now stands. In expectation of his imminent death, he named the site "Never's Winter," and when he survived due to the timely arrival of his allies, he founded the city of Never's Winter, eventually shortening the name to Neverwinter.

The city of Neverwinter is composed mostly of humans and half-elves. It is cultured without being arrogant, bustling without being greedy, and charming without being quaint. The City of Skilled Hands is best known for its craftsfolk who create cunning lamps of multicolored glass, precision water clocks, and exquisite jewelry. The Neverwinter River, its waters warmed by the fire elementals living under the nearby Mount Notenow in the Neverwinter Wood, keeps the water running and the city's famous gardens thriving. The city is also famous for its three bridges: the Dolphin, the Winged Wyvern, and the Sleeping Dragon, all of which are carved into the likeness of their namesakes.

AlterForm

2010-08-26, 01:19 PM

Gods, that cutting makes it sound like some sort of Urban Sue.

J.Gellert

2010-08-26, 05:54 PM

Gods, that cutting makes it sound like some sort of Urban Sue.

Isn't it? It's a city ran by a retired adventurer. And firmly on the white side against Luskan and the hordes of monsters/creatures of the Sword Coast.

SurlySeraph

2010-08-26, 08:01 PM

It's FR. Everything is run by retired adventurers.

Also, apparently it's going to be apocalyptic what with the Spellplague. So it won't be Wondertown forever.

king.com

2010-08-26, 10:13 PM

Mando Knight

2010-08-26, 11:51 PM

Anyone find it a little wierd how highly they appear to be rating Neverwinter as a city in FR? I mean its kinda nice but what about something like Waterdeep?

Unless the spellplague thing did a number on there too (i havnt check FR fluff in a long while so yea).

Anyone able to give me a summary (either here or by PM) of whats going on there?
Neverwinter actually went kablooey during the Spellplague. Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate survived, likely due to being bigger than Neverwinter and thus capable of having enough survivors of magic's temporary yet catastrophic existence failure to stagger about until enough magic could be re-discovered to make things livable again. Neverwinter is nowhere near the splendor it was under Nasher's reign, but is still a decent-sized city.

Its long-standing rival Luskan, however, is pretty much an unliving corpse of a city thanks to the devastation the Spellplague caused to the Hosttower. A city ruled almost entirely by mages and villains doesn't stay strong when the mages go crazy or spontaneously combust. Or both.

Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate are explored more in the LFR modules, with two "regions" (and thus their related adventure paths) being devoted to those cities in particular. Likely, they chose Neverwinter to be the site of the game for the fact that not much has canonically gone on in post-Spellplague Neverwinter yet, which may in turn be because WotC wanted to keep that city for their inevitable continuation of their FR-based D&D computer games.

J.Gellert

2010-08-27, 03:23 AM

Neverwinter actually went kablooey during the Spellplague. Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate survived, likely due to being bigger than Neverwinter and thus capable of having enough survivors of magic's temporary yet catastrophic existence failure to stagger about until enough magic could be re-discovered to make things livable again. Neverwinter is nowhere near the splendor it was under Nasher's reign, but is still a decent-sized city.

This may be slightly off-topic but I am genuinely interested and you seem to know... Is Amn still around? Athkatla, primarily, and by extension the entire region?

Wardog

2010-08-27, 07:27 AM

Agreed. NWN2 OC was bland. NWN1 OC was bland and boring.

Bring me MacGuffins!
Bring me MacGuffins!
Bring me MacGuffins!
Bring me MacGuffins!

Padded out with:

Aribeth: I wuv you FenthicK!
Fenthick: I wuv you too Aribeth!
Desther: I hate you all! You've useless! All of you! You might as well give up an put me in charge. I'm not evil, honest!
Desther: BWA HA HA HA! I am evil! Bet you never saw that coming!
Lord Nasher: Fenthick - Desther fooled you, just like he fooled all of us. But the people want your blood, and as absolute ruler of this city I am compelled to give in to their demands. Off with his head!
Aribeth: NOOOOO!
Aribeth: I'm so confused, I don't know what to do. Why is this happenin to me?
Aribeth: Sod this, I'm off to become a Blackguard and kill everyone.
Everyone else: WTF? How could that happen? Who would have thought that executing her lover on trumped up charges would make her go rogue? We never saw that one coming!
PC: Oh well, looks like its up to me to save everyone. (No change there then).

VanBuren

2010-08-28, 03:52 PM

ZAM got themselves an interview with Jack Emmert from Cryptic. Here's part one. (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=23104)

ZAM: There has been some confusion within the gaming community about Neverwinter's gameplay style; it's not exactly an MMO, yet it's not just a PC-RPG with multiplayer support. You've called it an "online multiplayer game" in interviews, which is a pretty broad term…

Jack Emmert: We look at it like a cooperative RPG. You get online, meet a handful of other people or game with your friends; we're not looking at zones which support hundreds of people. They're going to be smaller in scale to keep with the heroic skill, so that you, as an individual, feel like an intrinsic, important part of everything that happens. But at same time you're still going to be running across other people delving into the depths of Neverwinter—there are other adventurers in the world.

Unlike, say, Borderlands or some of the other [co-op] games; not that they haven't done this, but we're really focusing [on the fact] that it's an online, persistent game and we're going to be adding content to it continually just as we've done with our traditional MMOs. So imagine taking the traditional MMO model of adding new content continually—as opposed to every once in awhile coming out with DLC [downloadable content]—and very explicitly laying out plans for continual growth and marrying that with traditional RPGs, with the additional layer of being able to play with groups of other people… scores of other people, instead of hundreds, in a persistent zone.

From the full (first half of) the interview, you get the sense that he's hoping that, over time, the game will essentially become a full virtual representation of the DnD experience, with users being able to create full-blown campaigns and adventures.

Domochevsky

2010-08-28, 04:26 PM

That said so much... yet said so little. :smallconfused:

J.Gellert

2010-08-28, 04:36 PM

Some journalist should come up and ask them "Is it realistic to expect NWN1-style PWs? Or something else?".

king.com

2010-08-28, 08:41 PM

snip

Thanks for that, interesting to note as to what happened last time i left FR.

Eliirae

2010-08-28, 09:26 PM

ZAM got themselves an interview with Jack Emmert from Cryptic. Here's part one. (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=23104)

From the full (first half of) the interview, you get the sense that he's hoping that, over time, the game will essentially become a full virtual representation of the DnD experience, with users being able to create full-blown campaigns and adventures.

Sadly, if you look at Champions Online and Star Trek Online, what Jack says really doesn't give much hope.

Talkkno

2010-08-28, 10:07 PM

I know this is a tagnet, but it keeps bugging me, what exactly happened to Champion's Online that people are talking about?...

Cybren

2010-08-28, 10:10 PM

Eliirae

2010-08-29, 02:02 AM

I know this is a tagnet, but it keeps bugging me, what exactly happened to Champion's Online that people are talking about?...

So far Cryptic's idea of "content" for CO is going to be an adventure pack (a few small maps, quest chain that can be completed every 20-24 hours) every so often and maybe a few bug fixes while they give all the content CO players have been begging for to STO

jmbrown

2010-08-29, 02:50 AM

NWN1 was 3.0

NWN2, the terrible one, was 3.5

NWN2 is nowhere close to terrible. It didn't have as robust online as NWN1 but the single player was leagues better. NWN1's single player (including both expansions) are painfully boring and if it wasn't for the online play I couldn't imagine anyone enjoying it. NWN1 felt like playing a slower version of Diablo.

J.Gellert

2010-08-29, 03:54 AM

Rustic Dude

2010-08-29, 04:51 AM

NWN1 was 3.0

NWN2, the terrible one, was 3.5

Well, the PW is in NWN2, and it isn't terrible. In fact I enjoy it plenty more than NWN1 :smalltongue:

You can say that about the OC, but so is NWN's.

Dragor

2010-08-29, 05:10 AM

Where NWN2 failed was its engine. It was clunky, the UI was not incredibly intuitive, and the animation for the characters was just annoying. The story was serviceable, but where I felt the game succeeded most was in its humour and companions.

I never got into the online scene of NWN1. The game got me into D&D, though, so I can't say it didn't do anything for me. The campaign was... okay. Hordes of the Underdark remains my undying favourite, though- that was a campaign which truly felt like an epic D&D campaign.

J.Gellert

2010-08-29, 05:50 AM

Where NWN2 failed was its engine. It was clunky, the UI was not incredibly intuitive, and the animation for the characters was just annoying. The story was serviceable, but where I felt the game succeeded most was in its humour and companions.

I hadn't figured exactly what was wrong with NWN2 for a while... It wasn't designed for top down view, and it wasn't designed for over-the-shoulder either. You can have complete control over your party members but the camera view isn't helping.

You could "fix" these things by playing with the settings but really, it was hard, and it was messy. And filled with stupid bugs, like the options sometimes not saving. I am going to attribute most of these to a rushed release, because when MotB came out much of this stuff was improved (and, according to Obsidian, they took a couple months after MotB was finished just to make sure this kind of thing isn't repeated).

But still. You can't have a top-down camera that doesn't move up and down with the elevation of the terrain. You can't have an over-the-shoulder camera where your character's behind obscures 1/3 of the view! That's pretty basic stuff, there, and make for an annoying gameplay experience.

Now that I think about it (and this post is getting longer) pretty much everything was clunky. Camera views. Character selection. Right-click-and-HOLD(?!) for context menus. The chat box. The useless minimap. The walking animations were hideous, and on multiplayer, characters would often face in the wrong direction (or play a wrong animation)...

Before this turns into a complete rant, I have to ask myself again why did I ever consider this a good game... Most memories I have of it are terrible...

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-08-29, 07:14 AM

ZAM got themselves an interview with Jack Emmert from Cryptic. Here's part one. (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=23104)

Wait, Emmert is making this? I am suddenly very apathetic about this product.

jmbrown

2010-08-29, 07:28 AM

I never got into the online scene of NWN1. The game got me into D&D, though, so I can't say it didn't do anything for me. The campaign was... okay. Hordes of the Underdark remains my undying favourite, though- that was a campaign which truly felt like an epic D&D campaign.

The only way to make epic level 3.x serviceable is by removing all the space and time breaking spells and throw in 4E style rest anywhere.

Before this turns into a complete rant, I have to ask myself again why did I ever consider this a good game... Most memories I have of it are terrible...

Maybe because, like all of Obsidian's games, they have good writers and a great sense of adventure design. Every one of their games are riddled with bugs but the team has some serious writing chops and they know how to create exciting scenarios. Alpha Protocol is still my favorite game of this year but half the gaming audience can't get over the fact it doesn't play like Mass Effect 2. I didn't care for Fallout 3 but I'm really looking forward to New Vegas because I know it'll offer Bethesda level of exploration with Obsidian/Black Isle level of dialog and interaction. I'm ambivalent towards Dungeon Siege 3 but only because I've never been much of a fan of the series.

J.Gellert

2010-08-29, 08:17 AM

Maybe because, like all of Obsidian's games, they have good writers and a great sense of adventure design. Every one of their games are riddled with bugs but the team has some serious writing chops and they know how to create exciting scenarios. Alpha Protocol is still my favorite game of this year but half the gaming audience can't get over the fact it doesn't play like Mass Effect 2. I didn't care for Fallout 3 but I'm really looking forward to New Vegas because I know it'll offer Bethesda level of exploration with Obsidian/Black Isle level of dialog and interaction. I'm ambivalent towards Dungeon Siege 3 but only because I've never been much of a fan of the series.

You are probably right. I found Alpha Protocol to be pretty good, too. Not the best game of the year, I think, but pretty high on the list of my favorite RPGs.

VanBuren

2010-08-29, 12:43 PM

So while we're waiting for the second-half of the ZAM interview, we've got this three-page gem from Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6041/not_so_cryptic_neverwinter_and_a_.php). Emmert recognizes that people didn't care for Champions and Star Trek, though it still shocks him. And they haven't figured out a business model yet.

You were candid in a recent interview, saying that you didn't think Cryptic games' quality has been up to par. What do you think you have to do to raise the quality to where you want it to be?

JE: Well it's not that I thought the quality wasn't up to par, it's the customers and critics and everybody else, right? [laughs] All you have to do is go to Metacritic.com. It's not like we went out and said, "We're gonna make a really shi... mediocre game, and put in a box," no. We all thought that Star Trek Online was going to be phenomenal. We all thought that Champions was going to be phenomenal.

Even in open beta, the reaction we got from [Champions] was better than anything we ever did with City of Heroes and City of Villains. We were sky high. So believe me when the reviews came out, we were shocked, just shocked. Because there was nothing that would lead us to believe leading into it, from the data we had in beta, like the number of people playing, the number of downloads, how often they played and all that kind of stuff. It had exceeded anything that we had done previously.

So the reviews meant we had to have a reality check. The old way of doing things is very simple. We made City of Heroes in about a year-and-a-half. We made City of Villains in nine months, and both of which were successful, both of which were highly-acclaimed and reviewed.

And we looked around at MMO companies, and they were struggling. They were spending tens of millions of dollars, and we spent, what, $8 million on City of Heroes and $6 million on City of Villains. Here, we had a game, it was successful, we pumped 'em out, we had the technology, we had the tools, we thought we could be doing it forever, because we were like, "Yeah, we'll just keep making them every 18 months! We can!"

But what's happened over time is, quite frankly, World of Warcraft. I think it's a very different marketplace now. Because of World of Warcraft, the expectations are raised. So now with Champions and with Star Trek, we need to improve those games. We need to make them better. We're doing everything we can with our live team to improve the quality of gameplay. Not just to shove more content in, but to polish it.

With City of Heroes and City of Villains, that just wasn't the case. So mistakenly, arrogantly on my part, I just thought we could take these games and make them over and over again. And we did with Champions and Star Trek. They are so much better than City of Heroes was at launch, it's not even close. But just look at the review scores.

I designed City of Heroes. I didn't design Champions and I didn't design Star Trek. I have no horse in this race. I'm honestly bashing myself by saying these are better games. But I can honestly say, especially with Star Trek and Champions, they were just better. So when you see the reaction to the games, it really astonishes.
(...)
So you said you haven't announced a business model for Neverwinter.

JE: Yes, we haven't announced a business model for Neverwinter.

So you're not going to necessarily slap a price on the box and forget about it.

JE: No.

Is it going to be a monthly subscription? Microtransactions?

JE: I can guarantee you that we envision this as an online product that will continue to grow over time, that we continue to add content to. So whether it's subscription fee, whether it's free-to-play, whether it's microtransactions, whether it's pay-by-the-minute [laughs], whether it's some sort of Ponzi scheme that I haven't figured out, I don't know. None of that has been announced.

jmbrown

2010-08-29, 12:54 PM

The traditional MMO model needs to be reexamined because monthly subscriptions are going down the crapshoot. The hot thing right now is free-to-play with subscription based incentives. Neverwinter Nights did it right 7 years ago. Give us the free content first and then we'll decide on whether or not your nickle and dime tactics are worth a damn. Video games are expensive as is but paying $60 for the product then an additional $10 a month isn't something most people are fond of.

J.Gellert

2010-08-29, 04:47 PM

Exactly, the competition is too rough for monthly fees to be a good idea. If your product is even slightly inferior, it will be abandoned. If a new MMORPG sweeps the market, it will be abandoned. People who fork out $$ every month will obviously be very selective about where they spend it, and unforgiving.

On the other hand, free to play means you obviously cannot afford to keep supporting the game, except in the form of expansion packs. So I guess what's left is microtransactions? It seems to be working ok for those that are doing it.

Xefas

2010-08-29, 05:36 PM

Look, it's not that hard. All they have to do is re-make NWN2 and give it the multiplayer of NWN1 (which is simple - either take NWN2, and patch the bugs out of it, or take NWN1 and give it better up-to-date graphics and more customizability - interface, dialogue, etc).

Voila. Instant cash. As long as you let someone competent do it. You are all giving me very, very little hope for the company making the new Neverwinter, heh.

This, so much.

I would pay $60 right now for just Neverwinter Nights 1 + slightly better graphics, and more options in the map maker*. $57 without the graphical update.

*ex. I played in a persistent world for a while where the creator had simulated a Vampire race by applying a huge list of buffs to the character every time they entered an area, and putting some items with extra special abilities attached to them. If that stuff could just be standardized into a new race in the map maker? Damn.

potatocubed

2010-08-31, 07:04 AM

I know this is a tagnet, but it keeps bugging me, what exactly happened to Champion's Online that people are talking about?...

Champions Online was going to be a new superhero MMO. To be fair, there was a hell of a lot of potential in it, too.

When it was released the interface was buggy, unresponsive and nonfunctional in many areas. Your in-game stats didn't do what they were supposed to do. Some of the powers didn't do what they were supposed to do. There was no game balance. The map of Canada had a giant black hole in it, and several immortal enemies*. There were three 'GMs', except they weren't GMs, they were bug-fixers. If you fell through the map, or a mission got bugged there was no one to help you. Flag a complaint in the online bug tracker (which was one of the better ideas they implemented) and build a new character while you wait for it to be fixed.

Most criminally of all, there wasn't enough content in the game to get a character from 1 to the cap without major grinding or some decidedly unintended shenanigans. (Compare with any other MMO, including CoX, where there is enough content at each level that you can do it twice and still experience new stuff.) Cryptic flat-out denied this until mathematical proof was presented (xp available at each level vs. xp needed to level up in a nice graph).

Oh, and because of the content gap and and balance problems the functioning of various powers changed from day to day. Respeccing was prohibitively expensive because - and this is paraphrased from the mouth of Emmert, as I recall - they hadn't finished building the economy model yet. This meant that it was very easy to get stuck with a useless power through no fault of your own.

This was a game that needed twice as much content and at least another year in development before it was released. Plenty of good ideas - some excellent ideas - but the execution was diabolical.

*You were supposed to fight one down to surrender as part of a quest chain, so they were programmed not to die at 0 hp. Unfortunately, they still didn't die at 0 hp if you were just putzing around or doing other quests.

Drascin

2010-08-31, 08:44 AM

Exactly, the competition is too rough for monthly fees to be a good idea. If your product is even slightly inferior, it will be abandoned. If a new MMORPG sweeps the market, it will be abandoned. People who fork out $$ every month will obviously be very selective about where they spend it, and unforgiving.

To that add that people who already have a subscription to one game are inherently renuent to get another - people who have been playing WoW for a while aren't going to leave the account that they spent so many hours in, for a game that's merely slightly better than WoW. If you want to have a game with monthly fees, you need it to be really very much better than the opposition.

J.Gellert

2010-08-31, 09:38 AM

To that add that people who already have a subscription to one game are inherently renuent to get another - people who have been playing WoW for a while aren't going to leave the account that they spent so many hours in, for a game that's merely slightly better than WoW. If you want to have a game with monthly fees, you need it to be really very much better than the opposition.

That too, of course. I was playing on a NWN1 PW that "moved over" to NWN2 - only, the NWN1 version of it kept going. And technical problems aside, I suspect the reason why so few (read: almost 0) people moved over was that they wouldn't give up on the hours upon hours they had invested in their characters in the first game.

And they weren't even paying a monthly fee for that! I am not really into MMOs, but I can imagine giving up on your 80-level character, worth maybe 90 gaming days and $120 (someone will correct these figures, I am sure) is not something easily done (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJpgjR3fw04).

Duke of URL

2010-08-31, 09:41 AM

Could Castles and Crusades or Pathfinder or OSRIC license video games? Or would that still not work?

There seems to be nothing in the OGL that would prohibit this. The now-defunct d20 license prohibits software implementations of the rules for anything using the "d20" trademark (unless separate accommodations with WotC can be reached, of course).

Personally, I'd be tickled pink to license Boundless Horizons to a video game.

VanBuren

2010-08-31, 02:36 PM

The ZAM interview has just been updated with the second part. (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=23104)

ZAM: A substantial number of D&D players believe the 4th edition rules are a "dumbed down" version; but in this case, do you think 4th edition better lends itself to the modern, multiplayer RPG video games?

Emmert: A lot of the terminology and game mechanics really resonate very well with MMOs, so from that perspective, yeah; 4th edition is a very good pick for us. If you just take a look at how things are broken down within the Player's Handbook itself, there are different roles for each of the character classes which try to suggest the gameplay that players would do. And lo and behold, a lot of that terminology is very similar to MMO terminology. So for instance, a rogue is a striker—meaning an alpha-strike character—somebody who does a lot of damage really quickly but is also vulnerable. There are controllers; different character classes that can mesmerize and sleep and so forth. So already, you're noting a parallel to terms that we use in MMOs. And you see, the powers are broken down like that too, so it's easy for us to translate [to an RPG video game].

...

ZAM: Finally, you've been taking a bit of flak in the media lately for some of your recent Neverwinter announcement interviews, in which you talk about learning from releases like Star Trek Online and Champions Online. The scuttlebutt around the blogosphere is that "Cryptic COO Jack Emmert admits releasing crap MMOs," to paraphrase some of the milder comments. What's your response to those accusations?

Emmert: I've been pretty honest about our faults in the past and people have accused us that I'm virtually admitting that we pushed out Star Trek and Champions as unpolished product. But as God as my witness, when we launched those games, we had zero idea that we thought they were anything less than excellent… When we launched those games, we felt they were superior to City of Heroes, which as you know was a big hit. And I still, to this day, say they are superior to City of Heroes—but, you know, the market changed. If we launched CoH now, oh my God; we'd be in the same boat as [Realtime Worlds'] All Points Bulletin. It would be a bad situation; the way people receive MMOs, it's just a completely different marketplace and I think that we need to change those expectations, and we need to listen.

The reason why I'm doing this interview—and not the guy running the Neverwinter project—is because Neverwinter the start of a completely different orientation to what we're trying to accomplish. I've been reading responses to various interviews, and I can understand people [asking], 'Why did you make Star Trek in 18 months?' Well, that's what it was… If somebody said, 'Hey, here's the Star Trek license.' You say, 'Great, I can't wait to make the game!' You've got 18 months. Do you say no? Of course not… we were full of ego and enthusiasm.

I dunno. I'm glad he realizes that Champions failed, but it troubles me that he doesn't seem to fully understand why.

J.Gellert

2010-08-31, 08:03 PM

If you just take a look at how things are broken down within the Player's Handbook itself, there are different roles for each of the character classes which try to suggest the gameplay that players would do. And lo and behold, a lot of that terminology is very similar to MMO terminology.

Leaving my personal opinion aside for a moment, do you think we can throw Emmert in with the "4th Edition is WoW!" crowd? :smallamused:

Breltar

2010-09-01, 07:28 AM

That too, of course. I was playing on a NWN1 PW that "moved over" to NWN2 - only, the NWN1 version of it kept going. And technical problems aside, I suspect the reason why so few (read: almost 0) people moved over was that they wouldn't give up on the hours upon hours they had invested in their characters in the first game.

And they weren't even paying a monthly fee for that! I am not really into MMOs, but I can imagine giving up on your 80-level character, worth maybe 90 gaming days and $120 (someone will correct these figures, I am sure) is not something easily done (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJpgjR3fw04).

At one point I built both a huge NWN1 persistant world (1200 distinct areas) as well as building and helping build NWN2 worlds (3 different worlds, about 300 areas total) and found that folks loved the fact that the intimacy in those worlds was there for them. One of the big reason those PWs survive is because the GM/DMs for them are regular folks and not being paid and can add content just for a single event or purpose.

I once built an entire 'vampire castle' just for an event that ran for about 10 players. It ended up remaining in the PW once I added a few encounters but it was built for the sole purpose of that event. You don't see this in MMOs, especially without being paid for.

I also rebuilt an entire city after some PCs overthrew the local government and mistakenly released a plague into said city on a sort of 'whim' quest I had them going after. It wasn't something I planned to do but I let it happen and didn't force my vision of what the game should allow on the players. MMOs don't do this either.

I have a feeling that 'player created content' is going to be limited to a tileset system and probably only 'dungeons'. I hope I am wrong but the fact that you have to be online to play also doesn't abate my fears.

dsmiles

2010-09-01, 10:34 AM

Leaving my personal opinion aside for a moment, do you think we can throw Emmert in with the "4th Edition is WoW!" crowd? :smallamused:

I'm not personally in that crowd, but it sounds like he is. :smallfrown:
I still think this game is a bad idea. I like the SC campaign-type game much better than the you-have-to-play-online multiplayer-type campaign. I have friends that will come over and play tabletop DnD if we want social games. These games that go "online only" are shortening their fanbase by ostracizing people like me (who'd rather play tabletop games with friends, and video games alone).

Drascin

2010-09-01, 03:05 PM

Leaving my personal opinion aside for a moment, do you think we can throw Emmert in with the "4th Edition is WoW!" crowd? :smallamused:

I keep saying, I don't see where the "4e is WoW" comes from. 4e is clearly Final Fantasy Tactics, and someday Wizards will notice and make a damn SRPG out of it already! :smalltongue:

hobbitkniver

2010-09-01, 03:12 PM

*Teenage girl Twilight/Justin Beiber scream* Wait... version 4? Well, I've played the first and all expansion packs and the second and all expansion packs 5 or so times, so I'm going to get it. I really wish it wasn't though. I kinda feel like version 4 wouldn't be a good video game engine, but How could I pass up a DnD game?

Flickerdart

2010-09-01, 05:22 PM

I keep saying, I don't see where the "4e is WoW" comes from. 4e is clearly Final Fantasy Tactics, and someday Wizards will notice and make a damn SRPG out of it already! :smalltongue:
They tried that with 3.5. D&D Tactics for the PSP was bland and terrible.

Kish

2010-09-01, 05:27 PM

I'm not personally in that crowd, but it sounds like he is. :smallfrown:
Is "4e is WoW" here being used as a reductionist stand in for, "4e resembles a computer game/MMORPG"?

hobbitkniver

2010-09-01, 08:37 PM

Well in WoW, warriors (fighters) don't just attack, they use special skills that are just fancy names for how they hack their enemies. In 4e, they do something similar in the fact that fighters use named skills for every attack. (or so I know from my limited knowledge of it.) Also I think 4e would do well with the skillbars that everything seems to have now.

WitchSlayer

2010-09-01, 09:57 PM

I'm kinda hoping they won't put in a mana/energy bar.

But I know they will.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-01, 10:59 PM

The thing that really bugs me about this is simply the fact that it's an MMORPG.

As far as I've known, MMORPGs have never been good in the storytelling department. You don't have any real backstory for your character and no real direction to go in. Quests are basically killing things and taking their stuff, and don't have much in the way of a plot. What I love about D&D, Forgotten Realms and by extension the Neverwinter Nights series, was the feeling of playing in my own story and making decisions that affected its outcome. With a MMORPG, the goal simply seems to make your character as powerful as possible, especially given how PvP seems to be the most important thing in these kinds of games.

I don't play games to compete with people. I play them for the story! If this Neverwinter game is a MMORPG, it's basically missing the point of the series and its roots entirely.

Breltar

2010-09-02, 05:35 PM

J.Gellert

2010-09-02, 06:21 PM

If it has the multiplayer of NWN1, with active player-made worlds, then it doesn't matter what it is. Persistent worlds can run the gamut from action/roleplaying/storytelling...

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-09-02, 06:51 PM

It isn't an MMORPG, its an online multiplayer game (OMG) as stated in a few interviews. They can't make it a full on MMO due to legal issues with Turbine.

So Diablo/Diablo II style multiplayer?

dsmiles

2010-09-02, 06:59 PM

So Diablo/Diablo II style multiplayer?

From what I've read, yes, but it's basically forced multiplayer. In the interview I read the guy said that single player would be too hard. :smallannoyed: I really wish they'd stop producing games that force multiplayer on you. I have real-life friends that are more than happy to come play tabletop DnD with me, why would I want to play online DnD with the same people?

Breltar

2010-09-02, 07:22 PM

If it has the multiplayer of NWN1, with active player-made worlds, then it doesn't matter what it is. Persistent worlds can run the gamut from action/roleplaying/storytelling...

Persistant worlds I don't think will really be possible. It seems that it will be more 'player created dungeons' than full on worlds.

hobbitkniver

2010-09-02, 08:26 PM

I don't like that the multiplayer is forced, but I do like the fact that it exists.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-02, 11:50 PM

It isn't an MMORPG, its an online multiplayer game (OMG) as stated in a few interviews. They can't make it a full on MMO due to legal issues with Turbine.
...What's the difference?

VanBuren

2010-09-03, 12:47 PM

Voodoo Extreme (http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/interviews/56890/Neverwinter-Interview-with-Jack-Emmert) has another Q&A with Emmert.

VE: In your press release you also mentioned that you are working closely with R. A. Salvatore in creating the game. Is he going to be heavily involved in the project?

Jack Emmert: He is writing a trilogy that's set in Neverwinter and from a storyline perspective much of our game ties in to what his novel is doing. So from that standpoint we've had many creative meetings back and forth. We're taking his novel and his characters and seeing how we can thread that into our game. It's a cooperative thing where he's got his novels and he's been happy to share ideas back and forth. Obviously with Wizards of the Coast too, we've been in story meetings, hashing things out. He's a brilliant author and I don't want to say that Cryptic is in any way setting the storylines for his trilogy. It's more like he has some great ideas and stories for Neverwinter.

...

VE: How similar / different is Forge going to be from the Aurora toolset of NWN?

Jack Emmert: I would say it's completely different because this is our tool and we're kind of starting from a different philosophical point. We're trying to create a robust set of tools but at the same time you won't need a high degree of technical proficiency. It's still a pretty elaborate toolset but you don't have to tinker with the server and all that because we already have that taken care of.

From that standpoint, we're trying to lower the bar of entry so that everyone who has ever wanted to create their own D&D campaign can do so.

kyoryu

2010-09-03, 01:40 PM

...What's the difference?

I'd guess the difference is WoW vs. Guild Wars.

The motivator for the specific language probably has to do with lawyerin' and specific wording of contracts.

nosignal

2010-09-03, 02:14 PM

Speaking as someone who's probably not going to get this game, that interview really sounds like he's trying to hype the game up but at the same time there's not much he's actually saying, other than dropping names of other, more successful games and saying,"Look! We're going to be A+B+C!"

Also, he didn't cite NWN1 or 2 as gameplay influences, or is that meant to be taken as obvious? :smallamused:

Either way, I eagerly await a gameplay trailer just to see what the heck he's on about.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-03, 02:17 PM

I'd guess the difference is WoW vs. Guild Wars.
This distinction means nothing to me, having played neither game. Could you please elaborate?

Kish

2010-09-03, 02:35 PM

This distinction means nothing to me, having played neither game. Could you please elaborate?
World of Warcraft is an MMORPG in which some of the content (dungeons) is designed for groups of five to 40 people. Most of the world, you share with all the other players on your server. Dungeons are instanced, that is, when you enter a dungeon, an instance of that dungeon is created in which the only players are those in your group.

Guild Wars is an MMORPG in which most of the world is instanced. If you aren't in a town, the only PCs around are those in your group.

Aron Times

2010-09-03, 02:52 PM

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-03, 04:03 PM

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of bringing 4e to the PC. I was expecting something like this to happen eventually. What I don't like is that they opted for the multiplayer approach, which immediately makes me concerned that they'll throw plot out the window in favor of grinding and fetch quests. Because there's more than one person playing, they can't afford to create a detailed story because that demands centering on one character. You can't ALL be the Chosen One.

I'd be fine if they had a single-player campaign like they've had in all the other NWN games, but what I'm hearing makes it sound like multiplayer is a requirement, and I don't like multiplayer because I don't like putting how MY story unfolds in the hands of others, I don't like talking to strangers and I don't like how no one who plays these games seems to be able to type legibly!

J.Gellert

2010-09-03, 08:03 PM

... and I don't like how no one who plays these games seems to be able to type legibly!

By Oghma, yes, I don't usually believe in stereotypes, but that one... it's painful because it's true.

nosignal

2010-09-03, 09:35 PM

Before anything else...

YES YES YES YES ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG 4E CRPG!!!!111ONEONE

With that out of the way, when you guys say that it is an online multiplayer game, would that be similar to how Starcraft 2 works? You have to be logged in to use all the cool features of Starcraft 2, but you can still play offline if your internet connection is down.

I'm looking forward to seeing the swordmage, the sorcerer, and the psion in an expansion pack. These are my three favorite classes.

Actually I think it's closer to an "all online, all the time" sort of game. There's no single-player campaign like in the previous games and you have to log on to one of their servers to play. Hence the concurrent discussion about how it is an MMORPG by another name.

I hope someone brings up The Old Republic during one of these interviews because it's a pretty big elephant, that one.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-03, 10:06 PM

I get the feeling The Old Republic is going to be just as poor in terms of story. MMORPG quests never feel like they're telling a story, but just giving you odd jobs so you can build your character.

This is the fundamental problem I think MMORPGs have. Rather than being built around advancing a narrative, telling a story, it centers around advancing your character's power, whether by gaining experience and levelling up, or by finding more powerful items or buying them with gold you find. And they can't make a narrative, since that requires a protagonist, which is generally a single character. MMORPGs have millions of people playing them at the same time, and the only way to have a narrative that centers on all of them would basically be a single-player game.

Breltar

2010-09-03, 11:03 PM

Pros:

1. It is a continuation of the IP of Neverwinter and another D&D game.
2. A new company with a new approach.
3. Upgraded graphics and the like.

Cons:

1. No offline play at all. Internet down means no gaming.
2. No player servers thus no persistent worlds in the old sense.
3. Limited classes
4. MMO company making it with a history of 'over-hyped' games

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-03, 11:20 PM

Aren't you forgetting the con that MMO's inevitably fail in the storytelling department?

Flickerdart

2010-09-03, 11:48 PM

Maybe we'll see the return of Temple of Elemental Evil as the single-player alternative? I know Troika's dead, but the IP is still there.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-03, 11:53 PM

That wouldn't give me a chance to see the city I've come to love over two games Post-Spellplague. :smallfrown:

VanBuren

2010-09-04, 12:09 AM

Aren't you forgetting the con that MMO's inevitably fail in the storytelling department?

Actually, there's been a movement to try and rectify that. It hasn't been wholly successful, but there you go.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-09-04, 12:35 AM

Actually, there's been a movement to try and rectify that. It hasn't been wholly successful, but there you go.

I'll believe it when I see it.

kyoryu

2010-09-04, 12:45 AM

It's kind of inherent in the genre. Coming up with enough content to have a story that would last for the amount of time that most people play MMOs isn't really viable. You have to have some level of reuse/etc.

J.Gellert

2010-09-04, 03:25 AM

No, I've seen "story" in MMORPGs, even if it isn't as complicated as in other games. MMORPGs can have great stories.

What "Massively Multiplayer Online Out Of Character"s lack is this: Real, believable NPCs, that you can have a complex dialogue with for 15 minutes (as in the Witcher) and more importantly, people to take the plot seriously.

Even in the most perfectly-designed quest, there will be one or two people going "Omg lol rolfzorz!" or "quick!!111!1! HLP PLZZZ!" (at least start with a capital, if you know how to use capital letters) or just "buff" (and it's up to you to figure out what kind of spell they need, and you won't hear the end of it if you turn out to be a n00b) and it ruins the mood irrecovably.

Now if you could simply mute everyone, so that they only wander around like speechless NPCs, that would be so much beter.

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-09-04, 05:46 AM

No, I've seen "story" in MMORPGs, even if it isn't as complicated as in other games. MMORPGs can have great stories.

What "Massively Multiplayer Online Out Of Character"s lack is this: Real, believable NPCs, that you can have a complex dialogue with for 15 minutes (as in the Witcher) and more importantly, people to take the plot seriously.

This is pretty much it. There's plenty of very epic feeling questlines in WoW, and no lack of excellent arcs in City of Heroes. The problem is rather keeping immersed when people are going STFU NOOB and the like. Playing on the right servers really helps though.

Actually, I took a gander at the new content that launched with CoX's Going Rogue expansion and I gotta say they've done a great job on the writing front.

Dogmantra

2010-09-04, 05:50 AM

Aren't you forgetting the con that MMO's inevitably fail in the storytelling department?

I get the feeling you'd very much enjoy Guild Wars with the "All" channel turned off.

Breltar

2010-09-04, 08:08 AM

I'll believe it when I see it.

Lord of the Rings goes free to play next week, the story there gets better for your character as you go along in my opinion.

Some MMOs and some RPGs do fail because they make it so generic because of the options they give players as far as race/class/etc. This is why a game like Mass Effect can have a better story than something like Neverwinter Nights, the lack of character options forces you into a specific role.

J.Gellert

2010-09-04, 09:40 AM

Some MMOs and some RPGs do fail because they make it so generic because of the options they give players as far as race/class/etc. This is why a game like Mass Effect can have a better story than something like Neverwinter Nights, the lack of character options forces you into a specific role.

That's true, and it's much more obvious on single-player games. I played Dragon Age right after The Witcher, and I noticed this: While in the Witcher I couldn't play as an evil mage, I couldn't really in Dragon Age either. I'd rather be a badass mutant monster-slayer and feel it, than a terrible blood mage who doesn't even get proper intimidation options on his conversations and still has to play nice with his companions and half the people in the world. I felt like the game should just have given me a "Ranger-type" Blight-Hunter and be done with it - that's what I was feeling like, anyway, even with my pet skeleton.

J.Gellert

2010-09-11, 06:52 AM

So...

It's not a MMO, it's like Diablo/Guild Wars/something else...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-09-08-neverwinter-a-co-op-dragon-age

..."The focus is a little bit different," he added, "but in essence yes, we have the cinematics, the NPCs, the voice acting and the so forth and so on."...

..."You can play solo," Emmert pointed out. "You're always online; you're never offline. But you can certainly solo through the content.

"There will be persistent areas you travel to where you might see other players, but nobody's going to hold a gun to your head to play with them. There will be content that is team only, but in those cases, if you want to solo it, you can just hire NPC henchmen."...

I don't know if I'd take it over Diablo III or Guild Wars 2, but I must say I am a little bit intrigued, because of the "player-made content" part.

Lord of the Helms

2010-09-13, 12:50 AM

Lord of the Rings goes free to play next week, the story there gets better for your character as you go along in my opinion.

Some MMOs and some RPGs do fail because they make it so generic because of the options they give players as far as race/class/etc. This is why a game like Mass Effect can have a better story than something like Neverwinter Nights, the lack of character options forces you into a specific role.

That, however, depends entirely on the writing. Baldur's Gate, both NWN addons (especially Hordes of the Underdark) and NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer were all very good at getting you personally involved in the storyline even though you could be all ten different types of character, since they made sure that your character was personally affected by the plotline in such a way that no matter who he was, it made sense for him to pursue it. The real issue between a pre-set character like Geralt or Shepard and CHARNAME, The Grey Warden or the Spirit Eater is that the former ones had voice acting and were adressed by name, the latter ones were never heard talking and would only be adressed by name in-text (which isn't nearly as immersive).

Runestar

2010-09-13, 01:11 AM

Lord of the Helms

2010-09-13, 06:26 AM

I thought 4e rules could be adapted fairly well. At least, dragonage had this mana system which refilled very quickly in between combats. Neverwinter could do something similar, eg: encounter skills have a cooldown and such.

Though my concern is more of the weak storylines of RPGs of late. Haven't seen any really good ones after baldur's gate and planescape: torment. Heck, even throne of baal's plot was paper-thin - you were simply running from one map to another slaying everyone who got in your path. Helping a lich find his slippers?!? :smallconfused:

The kindly old man lich and his slippers were actually one of the cooler things about Throne of Bhaal, it was the main plotline that was rather lacklustre what with the blatantly obvious real villain and basically just killing the Five one after another (Though Balthazar was fairly interesting).

However, there's been tons of RPGs with good storylines since BG2 and Planescape. Not as good as those, maybe, but still, anything by Bioware since then (except the Original Campaign of Neverwinter Nights), Vampire - Redemption (granted, lots of hack and slash, but the actual epic storyline was nice), Gothic, Vampire: Bloodlines (awesome in every way, and perhaps the only awesome RPG ever where your entire quest isn't at all about saving the world/your kingdom/whatever) and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer come to mind, and The Witcher had pretty solid writing as well. Though granted, it's not a very good sign that the two games with crummy writing that stuck to my mind just happen to be Neverwinter Nights' and its sequel's original campaign.*

*I would also say Morrowind, but I was so bored by it that I abandoned that game before I found out if it actually HAD a story at all, so I cannot comment very reliably on it :smalltongue: