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Crasical
2010-08-24, 12:53 AM
I've been feeling for a while that my olde hamlets and towns are getting a tad same-y for the players as they've been making their way across the map, and have been thinking of ways to spice up the next kingdom they cross the boarder into with their own beliefs and customs.

A discussion with some friends on what sort of things they would enjoy or be comfortable with lead to speculating about a kingdom where arcane magic was considered the domain of (Male) scholars. This led to the warrior-castes being arcane wizards and sorcerers, who where protected by lady-knights and paladins.

Part of the speculation was for the diety of the paladins to be a local female god-of-war rather than anything in the existing pantheon the players had encountered so far. Prospectives would train as a cleric for a year before deciding if they would become a full paladin or remain a priest, in game terms taking a level of Cleric with the War Domain to get EWP with the goddess' favored weapon, the Spiked Chain.

The reason for this was that the paladin order was to be called 'Rose Knights', the beautiful and charming (high-Cha for smiting) paladins using Spiked Chains (Rose Thorns). I thought it was nicely symbolic, but my players feel like the Spiked Chain was a 'cruel and savage' sort of weapon and unbecoming of an order of paladins to use.

So, I'm curious to know how you all feel about the Spiked Chain. Is it a fitting weapon of knightly warriors, is it too cruel to be used by holy warriors, is it a big chunk of cheese, is it too silly to be used in a game? What are your opinions on the weapon of choice and what weapons would you suggest as an alternative to a goddess of war and flowers?

Sir_Chivalry
2010-08-24, 01:27 AM
Doesn't have to be a cruel weapon. In a fantasy world, the heavy chain and thick barbs associated with the weapon could easily be replaced by a strong but flexible and light combination of metal links/rings and leather strips, with thorn like barbs running around the metal links/rings.

I think it is a very nice idea, though barring the use of a spiked chain, might I suggest the dagger-whip or scourge? Just break your players' preconceptions until they come over to your side.

2xMachina
2010-08-24, 01:30 AM
Cruel?... No more than any other weapon.

gomipile
2010-08-24, 01:48 AM
A.) Rule 0

B.) The party is being insensitive, culture-centric, and chauvinistic. I imagine scenes resembling Sokka's interactions with the Warriors of Kyoshi in Avatar.

endoperez
2010-08-24, 03:18 AM
The spiked chain as presented in the images isn't realistic, and the spikes look like they'd wound more than they'd kill. Incidentally, they also look like they'd wound the user more often than the enemies... Any way, if you'd be willing to reflavour the weapon a bit, you could have it used more like the chinese weapons meteor hammer or rope dart.

Here's what a meteor hammer practice might look like (edit: changed the vid to a different one from the same group):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLoE6zTZyyU

Loving is sharing, share the pain? :smallbiggrin: It has impressive range and the ability to strike at several opponents by reversing the direction, while still having a touch of elegance.

Here's what a real, non-padded, weighted meteor hammer looks like at normal speed. Understandably, this one isn't tried on humans...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hOL8juiy1w

Something like that could work very well for your order of paladins. It's not a common weapon, and I didn't have much luck finding videos of women performing with it. For that, you might want to look at "poi" - incidentally, making circles with poi is alternatively called "making flowers". Poi are usually used as a pair, one for each hand, but you could just say that spiked chain is a variation where the two poi have a chain connecting them so that you can reach farther with it.
If you want more videos, you could look for "fire rope dart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hU_iivyBaA)" and "fire poi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVp6zjuxrmk)" - basically, a fire at the end of a rope that's used to perform tricks with. Really cool stuff, and you could say that the paladins with an Elan-like flair for theatrics use Flaming spiked chains...

AslanCross
2010-08-24, 04:58 AM
While a chain is typically symbolic of oppression, I'm sure one can really take it the other extreme. Also, as mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to look the way it is depicted in the books. It IS a finessable weapon, anyway, so I'd think it's actually fairly light.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-24, 05:22 AM
While a chain is typically symbolic of oppression, I'm sure one can really take it the other extreme.

Sure, a chain can also symbolize unity, dedication, and cooperation; for it is only as strong as its weakest link. Have them all trained with Weapon Finesse. I bet it sounds pretty suitable for an elite order of female paladins now, eh? :smallwink:

Weasel of Doom
2010-08-24, 06:24 AM
I think its a flavourful and unique weapon

I probably wouldn't go for the reflavouring to make it a meteor hammer though because that would ruin the rose thorn symbolism.

Also it seems like a potentially more merciful weapon than a sword or axe because it alllows tripping and has bonuses for disarm.

Poil
2010-08-24, 06:48 AM
Wouldn't paladins prefer to take someone alive rather than looping off limbs anyway? Chains would probably give less deep wounds that puncture internal organs and such too. Sure it would hurt a lot but on the other hand they are used against evildoers and they do have easy access to Lay On Hands.

Aroka
2010-08-24, 07:05 AM
Cruel?... No more than any other weapon.

This. You want a "cruel and savage" weapon, check out the misericorde and other stilettos (late Medieval stabbing daggers) - you jam it into a prone warrior's armpit, eye, or other poorly protected vital spot. That strikes me as pretty much the most terrifying way to die in battle - you're knocked down and immobilized, maybe injured or blinded so you can't defend yourself, and someone, pretty much unable to defend yourself, and you're finished off very carefully and methodically. But then, you can execute defeated enemies with swords, axes, rocks, and your bare hands, so what's the weapon got to do with the cruelty?

A spiked chain is no more savage than your typical morningstar, godendag, or flail, all pretty late-period Medieval European civilized weapons. It is a thoroughly silly weapon, but D&D is a thoroughly silly game. I mean come on, it's the game that popularized "plate mail" and mixed up weapon terminology in popular usage for decades to come.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-24, 07:15 AM
This. You want a "cruel and savage" weapon, check out the misericorde and other stilettos (late Medieval stabbing daggers) - you jam it into a prone warrior's armpit, eye, or other poorly protected vital spot. That strikes me as pretty much the most terrifying way to die in battle - you're knocked down and immobilized, maybe injured or blinded so you can't defend yourself, and someone, pretty much unable to defend yourself, and you're finished off very carefully and methodically. But then, you can execute defeated enemies with swords, axes, rocks, and your bare hands, so what's the weapon got to do with the cruelty?

A spiked chain is no more savage than your typical morningstar, godendag, or flail, all pretty late-period Medieval European civilized weapons. It is a thoroughly silly weapon, but D&D is a thoroughly silly game. I mean come on, it's the game that popularized "plate mail" and mixed up weapon terminology in popular usage for decades to come.

On a shield wall, crotch stabbing is one of the main deadly wounds, and the upper ground advantages are always offset by the fact the ones on top leave their legs much more exposed, while the ones on the lower ground can better focus their shields.
Yay for short swords.
And of course cavalry is usually stopped by digging holes in the ground that make the horses break their legs and fall.
--------------


if your players just can't dissociate from "chain! spikes! evil!!!" give all of them, as part of the paladin's class features, the capability of making any weapon they wield merciful. Including their armor spikes.

Quietus
2010-08-24, 08:06 AM
Crasical, consider this thoroughly yoinked - very cool idea, who cares what your players think. I love the idea of a female sect of Paladins with a more slender, possibly finessed spiked chain, with all that cool symbolism.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-24, 11:31 AM
On a shield wall, crotch stabbing is one of the main deadly wounds, and the upper ground advantages are always offset by the fact the ones on top leave their legs much more exposed, while the ones on the lower ground can better focus their shields.


But that was proved to be wrong in a book written by RA Salvatore, and he created Driz't, so he's gotta be right!:smallwink:
Hate Salvatore, the only rich sellout author who can't afford a thesaurus..
To the OP: For some reason it sounds like you're describing the Greyhawk city of Hardby. (City run by feminist extremists who keep the males entirely beaten down) Overall I like the idea, but seems like you're making the paladin even more MAD than before.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-24, 11:44 AM
Overall I like the idea, but seems like you're making the paladin even more MAD than before.

He could easily go with a Dex (for Weapon Finesse) and Charisma focus with merely a passable Wis for spellcasting. Might need a 13 Int to get Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip so they don't need to focus on Strength at all. Assuming they're all Human, they can get all that by level 6 since they're getting the exotic prof from a dip in Cleric.

Cleric 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP (from War domain)
Paladin 2 (L3) - Weapon Finesse
Paladin 5 (L6) - Improved Disarm

You can even swap the order of Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, or vary it between different NPCs so you have some that can trip and some that can disarm at Level 3.

Boci
2010-08-24, 11:47 AM
He could easily go with a Dex (for Weapon Finesse) and Charisma focus with merely a passable Wis for spellcasting. Might need a 13 Int to get Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip so they don't need to focus on Strength at all. Assuming they're all Human, they can get all that by level 6 since they're getting the exotic prof from a dip in Cleric.

Cleric 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP (from War domain)
Paladin 2 (L3) - Weapon Finesse
Paladin 5 (L6) - Improved Disarm

You can even swap the order of Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, or vary it between different NPCs so you have some that can trip and some that can disarm at Level 3.

You need srtength checks for tripping and disarming though. Serenity would remove the need for charisma, but thats another feat spent.

hamishspence
2010-08-24, 11:47 AM
One of the better spiked chain pics:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97166.jpg

Roderick_BR
2010-08-24, 11:52 AM
One of the better spiked chain pics:

<pic>
And seems to fit the OP's description too. Bonus points.

For a chain wielding warrior, you could also imagine those guys from Castlevania.

Greenish
2010-08-24, 11:56 AM
You need strength checks for tripping and disarming though.Not to mention needing 13 int for the feats.

Prime32
2010-08-24, 12:00 PM
I should point out that there are some good crusader builds focusing in the use of spiked chains (see Thicket of Blades stance), and the flavour fits a paladin.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357

Snake-Aes
2010-08-24, 12:20 PM
Note that finesse isn't obligatory, so you can just use it normally. Keeps the full plate, a good attack bonus and all.

Vinyadan
2010-08-24, 01:02 PM
Kusarigama?

I actually find the kama to be a terrifying and fierce weapon, but this version seems less brutal to me, and more martial.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-24, 01:17 PM
You need srtength checks for tripping and disarming though.

Only if all your NPCs need to be fully optimized.

In most cases, the +4 from the Imroved X feat will be a good enough replacement. Not to mention the spiked chain grants a +2 to disarm with an extra +4 just for wielding a two-handed weapon. (Sadly, there's no such bonuses for making trip attacks, but I guess that's because tripping is a stronger strategy.)

Quietus
2010-08-24, 01:46 PM
You need srtength checks for tripping and disarming though. Serenity would remove the need for charisma, but thats another feat spent.

Tripping yes, but disarming is opposed attack rolls. A finessed attack roll does just as good for disarms.

Crasical
2010-08-24, 02:47 PM
Sure, a chain can also symbolize unity, dedication, and cooperation; for it is only as strong as its weakest link. Have them all trained with Weapon Finesse. I bet it sounds pretty suitable for an elite order of female paladins now, eh? :smallwink:

That works! I might bring that argument up to the party, I'm not sure if they
dislike the 'chain' or 'spiked' part of the weapon, but hopefully if I keep going SYMOBOLISM! they'll come aroun. :smallbiggrin:



I probably wouldn't go for the reflavouring to make it a meteor hammer though because that would ruin the rose thorn symbolism.

Yeah, though the meteor-hammer and whip-dart and knife and all are neat weapons, they don't quite what I'm looking for, and give a more asian-ish feel to the world.



if your players just can't dissociate from "chain! spikes! evil!!!" give all of them, as part of the paladin's class features, the capability of making any weapon they wield merciful. Including their armor spikes.

Armor spikes... I hadn't actually considered those. That might be another route to go down for Rose symbolism. Though I should be careful with adding spikes to things or they'll turn into Cactus Knights.


To the OP: For some reason it sounds like you're describing the Greyhawk city of Hardby. (City run by feminist extremists who keep the males entirely beaten down) Overall I like the idea, but seems like you're making the paladin even more MAD than before.

I don't have the greyhawk books, so I wouldn't know anything about that. I wasn't trying to suggest that the males where 'beaten down' in this kingdom, merely that they have a different role.


You need srtength checks for tripping and disarming though. Serenity would remove the need for charisma, but thats another feat spent.

Where is the 'Serenity' feat from? and I'm not so sure about taking it, part of the concept was for the 'Rose' portion from the night being the paladins being charming/beautiful, which would indicate high cha to me.


I should point out that there are some good crusader builds focusing in the use of spiked chains (see Thicket of Blades stance), and the flavour fits a paladin.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357

I guess now would be the proper time to list who all is in the party, level 5:

Moira OakHelm, Jungle Dwarf Ranger, Female, uses a crossbow and is a jungle-explorer. I keep picturing her in a pith helmet. Medium Viper as animal companion.

Gerund, Human Fighter, Male, simple and honest soldier with specialization in Glaive. Don't know much about him yet.

Ceteri Aeternus, Aasimar Cleric, Female, Fate and Travel domains, worships the concept of time. Loves her hair and uses a rapier concealed in an umbrella. Apparently is wearing something halfway between a robe and armor, described as something like Saber wears in Fate/Stay.

Unknown DMPC, Unknown race, alignment, and class, padding the party out to 4 people until we can convince Ceteri's player's fiance or net-friend to join the game.

Currently none of them are Paladins, only one of them is Good Aligned (Moira, the rest are varying shades of neutral). I'm afraid of introducing the Tome of Battle classes for fear of outshining the players at what they do.


Kusarigama?

I actually find the kama to be a terrifying and fierce weapon, but this version seems less brutal to me, and more martial.

I'd like to stay away from the eastern flair of that weapon in case I run out of ideas and have them get teleported/picked up by hurricane and get their ship crashed into a east-asia analogue.

Prime32
2010-08-24, 02:49 PM
Kusarigama?

I actually find the kama to be a terrifying and fierce weapon, but this version seems less brutal to me, and more martial.Well, kusari-gamas were supposed to be wielded like kamas with a flail attached to the end, but they're often depicted being held by the weight and swung around.

I believe a "real" kusari-gama was once statted in Dragon with the unwieldy name of "gyrspike".

Greenish
2010-08-24, 02:54 PM
I believe a "real" kusari-gama was once statted in Dragon with the unwieldy name of "gyrspike".Gyrspike:http://madelf.zice.net/images/gyrspike.pngNo, really.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-24, 02:57 PM
Wasn't there a Gyrspike in Sword and Fist, looked like a bastard sword with a chain and spiky ball hanging off the pommel?

Looking at a few pictures of meteor hammers, and I think I could see some rose-like qualities in them. Rather than your usual Valentines Day long-stemmed roses, there are some which grow on vines. Reshape the weight on the hammer to resemble a flower, perhaps a closed or partially opened rosebud (http://www.amcgltd.com/archives/rosebud.jpg)


edit:Wow, 3 minute ninja, that's what I get looking for pictures in google...
Even assuming that pic posted above isn't to scale, I have no idea how you'd wield that without getting a spikey ball in the arm or ribs.

hamishspence
2010-08-24, 03:00 PM
Where is the 'Serenity' feat from? and I'm not so sure about taking it, part of the concept was for the 'Rose' portion from the night being the paladins being charming/beautiful, which would indicate high cha to me.

Serenity is in Dragon Compendium- Effect: Wisdom replaces Charisma for the following abilities:

Divine Grace, Smite Evil, Lay On Hands, Turn Undead.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-24, 03:12 PM
Where is the 'Serenity' feat from? and I'm not so sure about taking it, part of the concept was for the 'Rose' portion from the night being the paladins being charming/beautiful, which would indicate high cha to me.


Have a look at the pathfinder's paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/paladin). Its casting is level-3 (instead of level/2), charisma-based, with two good saves and a much, much, MUCH better Smite Evil ability. Their mechanics will be much more easy to fit into a functional paladin that you want.

subject42
2010-08-24, 03:17 PM
If you wanted to mess with your player's heads while simultaneously justifying the spiked chain, add a self-flagellation element to the Holy Order.

hamishspence
2010-08-24, 03:30 PM
Have a look at the pathfinder's paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/paladin). Its casting is level-3 (instead of level/2), charisma-based, with two good saves and a much, much, MUCH better Smite Evil ability. Their mechanics will be much more easy to fit into a functional paladin that you want.

Yup- some of the more contentous things, like paladins being forbidden to associate with evil characters, have been dropped.

The discussion of the different ways of handling alignment is also interesting:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules---final

especially when 3.5 splatbooks are looked at though this lens.

BoED seems to follow the "3 rings" principle- some acts are freely permitted to good characters, some are forbidden, some are "grey" or "questionable" (like threatening to torture someone when you have no intention of following through):


Defining Deeds
Another way to see alignment is as a series of concentric rings. In the center ring are all the behaviors that are obviously acceptable according to a character’s alignment. Around that is a middle circle that covers the gray areas—actions that might be allowed under certain circumstances or are unclear. On the outside is the forbidden area of extreme actions that obviously violate the alignment.

Taking prisoners offers examples of all three circles. Accepting an opponent’s honorable surrender is clearly good. Torturing that prisoner for information might be in the forbidden area for a given good character. But what about threatening torture, if the PC doesn’t intend to carry out the threat? That falls into the middle circle.

Taking this route means players must remember their characters’ alignment and act accordingly. At the same time, while this route goes far toward suggesting how characters might act in specific situations, debates might arise when group members don’t see eye-to-eye about which acts are permissible. Additionally, some characters might have varying access to the gray areas of their alignment, and GMs should discuss where this line exists for characters who face repercussions for deviating from their moral code.

Crasical
2010-08-24, 03:41 PM
If you wanted to mess with your player's heads while simultaneously justifying the spiked chain, add a self-flagellation element to the Holy Order.

Some sort of sub-sect within the order? Cult of the Scarred Rose?

Fax Celestis
2010-08-24, 03:44 PM
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/sc2-ivy3.jpg

Does that look savage to you? Fluff is malleable: do to it what you want. Your Rose Knights are interesting and unique: don't let your players bully you.

Crasical
2010-08-24, 04:14 PM
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/sc2-ivy3.jpg

Does that look savage to you? Fluff is malleable: do to it what you want. Your Rose Knights are interesting and unique: don't let your players bully you.


*cough*

Uh, did you have to use Ivy as an example? the BDSM undertones might end up distracting my players.

Though I guess it's sort of fitting for the proposed self-flagellating subsect.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-24, 04:16 PM
*cough*

Uh, did you have to use Ivy as an example? the BDSM undertones might end up distracting my players.

Though I guess it's sort of fitting for the proposed self-flagellating subsect.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/NachoKun/mirc/Signum-LevantineSnakeForm.jpg
:p

Prime32
2010-08-24, 04:41 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/NachoKun/mirc/Signum-LevantineSnakeForm.jpg
:pSignum is an ordained champion. Because she can channel flame strike through her attacks with a longsword, you see.

EDIT: In fact...

LG Human Cleric (Celerity, War) 15/Ordained champion 5
Feats: Divine Metamagic, Combat Expertise, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Empower Spell, Holy WarriorCC, Leadership
Equipment: Belka-type cartridges (nightsticks), Greatreach bracers, Levantine, +5 light shield w/ weapon sheath

Item Familiar: Levantine (+5 swordbow w/ greater arcane might augment crystal + wand chamber containing wand of stretch weapon)

Shiden Issen: Flame strike channeled through melee attack
Karyuu Issen: Flame strike
Schlangenform: Activate greatreach bracers and/or wand of stretch weapon
Hiryuu Issen: Activate greatreach bracers and divine might, followed by flame strike channeled through melee attack
Bogenform: Switch swordbow to longbow form
Panzergeist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHjALt70HFg&fmt=18): Ordained champion's Divine Bulwark ability