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Morquard
2010-08-24, 12:20 PM
Ok, I know LA are essentially "empty levels", and similar to RHD which are giving some sort of benefit.

But lets say a Drow, who has a LA of +2, and is a 1st level fighter. Is he now level 1 or level 3?

Can you even make level 1 chars with races that have a LA? Or when the DM says "We start at level 1" that automatically excludes any race with a LA?

Ravens_cry
2010-08-24, 12:23 PM
Almost certainly it excludes. The only almost is wheedling with the DM.

hamishspence
2010-08-24, 12:25 PM
Some races come in a "lesser" version- so you can play the race (slightly weaker) without an LA.

Drow is one of these.

Lesser Drow, Duergar, Planetouched, and Svirfneblin are in Players Guide to Faerun (page 190-191)

for non-lesser races with LAs, the LA plus actual level is "Effective character level"- which determines how much experience you get for an encounter, what's appropriate treasure to start off with, and so on.

dsmiles
2010-08-24, 12:26 PM
1. The drow is level 3.
2. It excludes any LA races (with exceptions provided by the DM, of course).

Lord Vampyre
2010-08-24, 12:29 PM
Savage Species and other such resources give examples on how to play a race with a LA and/or RHD at 1st level.

I have never really considered LA or RHD as "empty" levels. The real question is are those levels worth what you are getting for them?

ericgrau
2010-08-24, 12:32 PM
But lets say a Drow, who has a LA of +2, and is a 1st level fighter. Is he now level 1 or level 3?

Both. For balance, xp, treasure, etc. he is level 3. For spells that affect him or anything else inside the game world he is level 1. For example, a drow barbarian 2 is vulnerable to sleep even though he's ECL 5. And he only gets 1 feat not 2.

WinWin
2010-08-24, 12:33 PM
Ok, I know LA are essentially "empty levels", and similar to RHD which are giving some sort of benefit.

But lets say a Drow, who has a LA of +2, and is a 1st level fighter. Is he now level 1 or level 3?

Can you even make level 1 chars with races that have a LA? Or when the DM says "We start at level 1" that automatically excludes any race with a LA?

The drow fighter would be level 3. RAW they would also start with gear appropriate to a 3rd level character. They only have one hit die (actual level).

Most games I have played/run there has been no trouble starting off with a couple of +1 or +2 LA characters. Usually they just got a starting package instead of extra wealth. That helped keep treasure distribution fairly even. Facing standard challenges, the extra benefits of the LA wore off pretty quickly as characters without LA level up faster. Without LA buyoff, most templates and +LA races lose effectiveness pretty quickly, though for some niche builds it is worth it.

Thinker
2010-08-24, 12:34 PM
1. The drow is level 3.
2. It excludes any LA races (with exceptions provided by the DM, of course).

Did the bolded section really need to be said?

dsmiles
2010-08-24, 12:50 PM
Did the bolded section really need to be said?

Honestly, yes. Not all DMs are approachable about such subjects. Some DMs tend to be intimidating when they set forth "THE LAW."

Morquard
2010-08-25, 04:20 PM
Savage Species and other such resources give examples on how to play a race with a LA and/or RHD at 1st level.

Ok, I've checked there for a bit, but I don't seem to find where it says anything about playing LA at 1st level. Could you give me a page or a rough summery how it works?

Prime32
2010-08-25, 04:22 PM
Ok, I've checked there for a bit, but I don't seem to find where it says anything about playing LA at 1st level. Could you give me a page or a rough summery how it works?They offer conversions of the races into classes, on a case-by-case basis. So at 1st-level you'd have one level of drow and gain only some of the abilities.

Note that these are still not "real levels" and a character with every level of the class ends up exactly the same as one who was built normally. It can be worth it in some cases though, if your DM allows you to take only some levels of the racial class (the online progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) explicitly allow this, making 2 levels of ghost quite viable)

Morquard
2010-08-25, 04:29 PM
So as an example, if we stay with the drow (just making something up here, not sure that works with the rules):
At 1st level drow you get Darkvision, the +2 to will saves and one of the SLA and at 2nd level drow you get the other SLA and the SR

If I then decide to only take 1 level of Drow and then continue as fighter, i'd not get the SR and the ohter SLA? Something like that?

HamHam
2010-08-25, 04:34 PM
So as an example, if we stay with the drow (just making something up here, not sure that works with the rules):
At 1st level drow you get Darkvision, the +2 to will saves and one of the SLA and at 2nd level drow you get the other SLA and the SR

If I then decide to only take 1 level of Drow and then continue as fighter, i'd not get the SR and the ohter SLA? Something like that?

Pretty much yes. IIRC:

You get some of the Drow abilities for free as racial, equivalent to any other LA 0 race like humans etc. You take your first level in fighter. Then, when you hit second level you can take a "level" in Drow, and gain some more of the Drow abilities, but no HD, saves, etc. Ditto for future levels. You can choose freely whether to take fighter or Drow AFAIK.

Morquard
2010-08-25, 05:10 PM
Oh, right, you would have to start with a class level of course, otherwise you don't have any HPs

Chaelos
2010-08-25, 05:14 PM
Re thread title: poorly.

flabort
2010-08-25, 06:45 PM
Yah, as I understand it, the only way to play a race with LA at first level, is a (early version) kobold, or other negative LA race. (only player with more than one level at the table, although you're still considered 1st for treasure and such).
I'm not sure how it interacts with feats, myself:
whether you get feats based off of HD/class levels only, and you lose out on feats because of the LA (or gain for neg. LA), or if LA is counted when determining # of feats, is totally beyond me.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 06:50 PM
Yah, as I understand it, the only way to play a race with LA at first level, is a (early version) kobold, or other negative LA race.What kobold sports negative LA?

I'm not sure how it interacts with feats, myself:
whether you get feats based off of HD/class levels only, and you lose out on feats because of the LA (or gain for neg. LA), or if LA is counted when determining # of feats, is totally beyond me.Only HD give feats.

HamHam
2010-08-25, 08:16 PM
Also, see if you can later use LA buyoff to get rid of your LA.

Prime32
2010-08-25, 08:36 PM
An incarnate construct warforged has -2LA, but no sane DM would allow it.

...maybe if you applied +2LA worth of templates.

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-25, 08:44 PM
two different ways to play "lesser" races

1)staggering abilities by "levels which a player needs to spend levels on to get." little harsh but you ar at least starting off with everyone at the same level
2) the pgtf way of not as powerful versions of those races written over the actual races stats. it is meant to be a way that instead of working your way to be drow as originally written the drow in the campaign world are made weaker just so they become 0la pc races.

Devils_Advocate
2010-08-26, 09:16 PM
But lets say a Drow, who has a LA of +2, and is a 1st level fighter. Is he now level 1 or level 3?
He's level 1. Those telling you that this character is level 3 are incorrect. He's treated as being two levels higher with regard to XP (and WBL), but character level excludes LA. This is an important distinction, since a bunch of things in the rules are based on character level. (Max skill ranks, for example.)


Or when the DM says "We start at level 1" that automatically excludes any race with a LA?
If e.g. the DM says to make a level 5 character, by default that means to make a character with an ECL of 5. That's sorta the point. Level 1, same thing. You may be able to make an ECL 1 character with such a race using one of the above-mentioned monster progressions or negative LA templates. Ask your DM what is allowable in his or her campaign.