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Dorna
2010-08-24, 03:45 PM
Hello again...
since my last character is somehow... not as alive as i like him to be, i need a new one.
My Party is missing some Melee-Character. My Initial Rolls were 15/14/14/13/13/7

I thought about a 2Monk/3Barbarian/2Fist of the Forest (Level 7 is starting Level)
Next would be 3FoF and Bear Warrior after that.

It's not the first time I tried to build something around a Monk. And as usual I'm not really happy about it. +7/+7/+2 with 1d8+3 dmg and 16AC is really not the best thing i can imagine...
Ok. With a monk's belt and feral trance i could boost it to +9/+9/+4 1d10+7 with 19AC (Much better, but just 7 Rounds / Day...)

Well, perhaps someone here could give me some Advice...

Ok. I won't be happy with a Monk/Barb. I looked a bit further and it ended up in a fighter(4)/barb(1)/deepwarden(2)

I'd take a Gold Dwarf and the changed Stats would be:
Str16 / Dex11 / Con16 / Int14 / Wis7 / Cha13

Feats:
Endurance (Deepwarden requirement)
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weap. Spec. (Greatsword)
Extra Rage
Reckless Rage

Items:
Mithral Full Plate
Strongarm Bracers
Amulet of Health

Without Rage he Hits with +11/+6 3d6+6 and got 22AC
While Raging: +14/+9 3d6+12 with 21AC

I thought about taking Karmic Strike in the Future.

Well this is what came in my mind recently. Any Advices? :)

RMS Oceanic
2010-08-24, 03:47 PM
Doesn't the Monk and Barbarian have mutually exclusive alignment requirements?

Dorna
2010-08-24, 03:52 PM
Yeah.. they usually do. But the way from Lawful to Neutral is not that big. I could never add another Monk Level, but I dont think my DM wouldn't have much problem with the alignment-thing.

Master_Rahl22
2010-08-24, 04:28 PM
You would probably find this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0) useful. Dman11235 is in love with the Fist of the Forest, so I'd definitely check it out.

Greenish
2010-08-24, 04:59 PM
Are you married to using monk? Barb4/FotF3 is a great entry for Bear Warrior.

Dr.Epic
2010-08-24, 05:01 PM
Doesn't the Monk and Barbarian have mutually exclusive alignment requirements?

Multiclassing: you can't gain any more levels as a monk but you retain all your class features despite the non-lawful alignment.

It is however to make a monk with the rage ability. I've figured out a few ways this can be done.

Dorna
2010-08-24, 05:22 PM
Are you married to using monk? Barb4/FotF3 is a great entry for Bear Warrior.

no. definitely not. just thought, that the AC Bonus and Flurry of Blows might be a good thing, since the FotF can't wear any armor too.

Torq
2010-08-24, 05:29 PM
If you can take a flaw to get Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st, Barbarian1/Ranger 3 gets you Fist of the Forest at 5th level, then you can take a two level dip in Deepwarden (You'll have Endurance from Ranger and all the skill reqs. too). That'll be double CON modifier to AC. Then take Bear Warrior at 8th.

Wicked high armor if you can be a dwarf and boost con at 4th.

With 18Con, I think you can get something like 28AC without armor when you rage/bear/feral dance (which can all be done at the same time I believe).

If you take a level of monk, you postpone entry into Bear Warrior and FotF. You should just take Improved Unarmed Strike as your 1st level feat

Greenish
2010-08-24, 05:32 PM
no. definitely not. just thought, that the AC Bonus and Flurry of Blows might be a good thing, since the FotF can't wear any armor too.I'm not sure whether Flurry stacks with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), but I know it won't work with the natural weapons (either FotF's bite or bear's claw/claw/bite).

As for AC, well, you'll most likely only put 13 there, and even with Monk's belt you'll only gain grand total of 2 AC (+1 wis, +1 ac bonus from 7th level monk), and that's when you can afford the belt.

Now, the bonus feats are decent if you use the combat style variants, so it's something of a toss-up.

[Edit]:
If you can take a flaw to get Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st, Barbarian1/Ranger 3 gets you Fist of the Forest at 5th levelRanger is nice, yeah. I'd probably take it at the first level for skillpoints. Dragon Mag has variants that can get you PA or (I think) IUS as the ranger bonus feat.

Keld Denar
2010-08-24, 05:43 PM
Fistbear Bearfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107)?

Dorna
2010-08-25, 08:27 AM
Ok. I won't be happy with a Monk/Barb. I looked a bit further and it ended up in a fighter(4)/barb(1)/deepwarden(2)

I'd take a Gold Dwarf and the changed Stats would be:
Str16 / Dex11 / Con16 / Int14 / Wis7 / Cha13

Feats:
Endurance (Deepwarden requirement)
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weap. Spec. (Greatsword)
Extra Rage
Reckless Rage

Items:
Mithral Full Plate
Strongarm Bracers
Amulet of Health

Without Rage he Hits with +11/+6 3d6+6 and got 22AC
While Raging: +14/+9 3d6+12 with 21AC

I thought about taking Karmic Strike in the Future.

Well this is what came in my mind recently. Any Advices? :)

Greenish
2010-08-25, 08:44 AM
Ok. I won't be happy with a Monk/Barb. I looked a bit further and it ended up in a fighter(4)/barb(1)/deepwarden(2)Take the barbarian level first, more skillpoints and hitpoints.

Then, how about some AFC's? Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion gets you Pounce, which is handy in allowing you to charge and full attack.

Whirling Frenzy from UA replaces rage with the titular frenzy, which gives you an extra attack.

Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are pretty poor feats. If you take another level of barbarian and take the wolf totem barbarian from UA (the variants stack), you can get Imp. Trip without the prerequisite Combat Expertise, allowing you to grab Knock-Down.

Dorna
2010-08-25, 09:13 AM
Take the barbarian level first, more skillpoints and hitpoints.
Good Point. Thanks



Then, how about some AFC's? Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion gets you Pounce, which is handy in allowing you to charge and full attack.
I like that. 20 ft movement is a bit low... but hey! who cares! i'll charge the distance :)




Whirling Frenzy from UA replaces rage with the titular frenzy, which gives you an extra attack.
That would result in a loss of 21hp, +2str, +2will and a gain of 3AC, +2refl and the additional attack but all with -3 opposed to the classic rage. I have to think about that a bit ;)
But it would save me a feat since Reckless Rage doesn't make much sense.. right?



Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are pretty poor feats. If you take another level of barbarian and take the wolf totem barbarian from UA (the variants stack), you can get Imp. Trip without the prerequisite Combat Expertise, allowing you to grab Knock-Down.

I agree with the Focus an the Spec.
Imp. Trip with a Greatsword would be a bit difficult. Just makes sense with Knock-Down i think. But there is no 3.5 Version of Knock-Down, i think. Need to talk about a 3.0-feat with my DM.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 09:22 AM
That would result in a loss of 21hp, +2str, +2will and a gain of 3AC, +2refl and the additional attack but all with -3 opposed to the classic rage. I have to think about that a bit ;)Whirling Frenzy penalty is only -2, which is negated by the increased strength.

But it would save me a feat since Reckless Rage doesn't make much sense.. right?Well, it's Reckless Rage is a pretty minor, but it might work with frenzy, ask your DM if you really want it.


Imp. Trip with a Greatsword would be a bit difficult. Just makes sense with Knock-Down i think. But there is no 3.5 Version of Knock-Down, i think. Need to talk about a 3.0-feat with my DM.It did make it's way to SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)

Dorna
2010-08-25, 09:29 AM
Whirling Frenzy penalty is only -2, which is negated by the increased strength.Well, it's Reckless Rage is a pretty minor, but it might work with frenzy, ask your DM if you really want it.
I don't need that feat ;) I took ist for the extra 2 str+con. That's the reason why i came out with -3. 6str opposed to 4str and -2 on all attacks.. so i'd get +11/+11/+6 instead of +14/+9



It did make it's way to SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)
Ah ok.. didn't see that.

Dorna
2010-08-25, 11:33 AM
Ok.. a bit of work later it looks like this:

Gold Dwarf
Barbarian(3)(Whirling Frenzy)(Lion Spiritual Totem)(Wolf Totem Barbarian) / Fighter(2) / Deepwarden(2)

While in Frenzy:
Str20 / Dex11 / Con18 / Int14 / Wis7 (Yay) / Cha13

Equipment:
Mithral Full Plate
Strongarm Bracers
Great Greatsword
Amulet of Health (+2)

Feats:
1. Endurance
1. Pounce (Lion Spiritual Totem)
1. Whirling Frenzy
2. Imp. Trip (Wolf Totem Barbarian)
3. Extra Rage
4. Power Attack (Fighter Bonus)
5. Weapon Focus (I Know.. not very good. But i'm not sure which fighter Bonus-Feat would do better. Imp. Initiative?)
6. Knock-Down

Result:
Raging:
24AC (Armor + Con + Rage)
+11/+11/+6: 3d6+7

Normal:
22AC
+11/+6: 3d6+4 (i should definitely rage...)


But i still got one question about Knock-down:
In Sword & Fist (3.0) it says that you can't combine Imp. Trip with Knock-Down to receive the aditional attack. Is that still that way in 3.5? Or do i take it just like mentioned in the srd and get +4 to trip and the 2nd Attack?

Greenish
2010-08-25, 11:51 AM
Equipment:
Mithral Full Plate
Strongarm Bracers
Great Greatsword
Amulet of Health (+2)You don't actually need the full plate to be mithral, and the benefits of it are rather minimal for you. Settling for a steel full plate nets you 9k gp to spend on other stuff (say, is that sword magic?).


5. Weapon Focus (I Know.. not very good. But i'm not sure which fighter Bonus-Feat would do better. Imp. Initiative?)When in doubt, Imp. Initiative is a good filler. Imp. Bull Rush would set you up for Shock Trooper later, if you want to go that way. Otherwise, look into PrCs you might want to enter later for their qualifications. : You're proficient with dwarven waraxe, so taking a Weapon Focus on it would allow you to qualify for a level of exotic weapon master and the powerful blow (or something like that) trick.
But i still got one question about Knock-down:
In Sword & Fist (3.0) it says that you can't combine Imp. Trip with Knock-Down to receive the aditional attack. Is that still that way in 3.5? Or do i take it just like mentioned in the srd and get +4 to trip and the 2nd Attack?Good question. I don't actually know, I've never paid much attention to it's source before, just gone with what SRD says.

Keld Denar
2010-08-25, 12:00 PM
You have Endurance, you have a GREAT Con, you should definitely get Steadfast Determination from PHBII. It does 2 things. First, it changes Wis to Con for will saves. This will jack up your will save 6 points at current measurement, more as you increase your Con with various abilities. Also, when raging, your will save will go up by 4, instead of the normal 2, because of the Con increase. Secondly, it keeps you from auto-failing fort saves on a one. Failing fort saves is bad. Even if you have a +100 fort save, a natural 1 will still kill you. Steadfast Determination is one of VERY few abilities that protect you from this fate. Its good.

So yea, take it.

What are your plans after Deepwarden2? As mentioned, Bear Warrior into Warshaper is a pretty good go. Warshaper will let you retain your dwarfy hands while in bear form, so you can be a giant bear with a sword. RAWR.


But i still got one question about Knock-down:
In Sword & Fist (3.0) it says that you can't combine Imp. Trip with Knock-Down to receive the aditional attack. Is that still that way in 3.5? Or do i take it just like mentioned in the srd and get +4 to trip and the 2nd Attack?

This is something that is rather hotly debated. Sword and Fist was errated to prevent abuse. When the feat was reprinted in 3.5, that errata was ommited. Whether or not this was intentional (errata errata), or just a copy/pasta or editing error, we'll never know. Knockdown is good without doubling your attacks per round, so I'd say don't abuse it or your DM might get mad.

Dorna
2010-08-26, 05:49 AM
Everything would be easy if my dm wasn't such an... whatever ;)
He read somewhere, that the Deepwarden is waaaayyyy to mighty -> No Deepwarden Dorna. Not that bad, since WotC stated, that the Con-Bonus is limited through Armor the same way dex would be = 1AC loss for me + 1 free feat (Won't take Endurance now)

My next plan:
Barb(3)/Fighter(2)/Barb(1)/Exotic Weapon Master(1)

Lion Spiritual Totem to get the Pounce Ability
Wolf Totem Barbarian to get imp. Trip
1. Weapon Focus (Waraxe, Dwarven)
3. Extra Rage
4. Power Attack
5. Imp. Bull Rush
6. Shock Trooper
7. ExWM (Trip Attack)

Pounce says, that i can make a full Attack after Charging:
So lets assume i use shock trooper to charge with a PA of 5. Giving 3 Points to AC and 2 to the attack roll would result in: +0 on Attack Roll / -5 AC
Can i now Trip my opponent as part of my full Attack? And get the additional Attack from imp. trip?
Or is Pounce, Shock Trooper, Trip, imp. Trip, Full Attack a bit to much for one Round? :)

Edit:
To clarify my thoughts:
My normal Attacks with Whirling Frenzy are +11/+11/+6
a large Waraxe (Strongarm Bracers. I somehow like their style) Two-Handed deals: 2d8+7 dmg (20Str while Raging)
With the Charge mentioned above i'd lose 5 AC
Would Make a touch attack with +11 to trip the enemy
Opposed Strength Check with +9 (imp. Trip + Str)
Attack 1: +15 (11 + 4 (lying)) with 2d8+17 dmg
Attack 2: +15 (11 + 4 (lying)) with 2d8+17 dmg
Attack 3: +10 (6 + 4 (lying)) with 2d8+17 dmg

is that correct?

Greenish
2010-08-26, 07:45 AM
Can i now Trip my opponent as part of my full Attack? And get the additional Attack from imp. trip?Yes, you can replace one of the normal attacks in your full attack with the trip attack.


Or is Pounce, Shock Trooper, Trip, imp. Trip, Full Attack a bit to much for one Round? :)Pounce & Shock Trooper might be a bit much, depending on the game. If Deepwarden is somehow too powerful… Yeah, I'd warn the DM beforehands, see if he's okay with it.


Edit:
To clarify my thoughts:
My normal Attacks with Whirling Frenzy are +11/+11/+6
a large Waraxe (Strongarm Bracers. I somehow like their style) Two-Handed deals: 2d8+7 dmg (20Str while Raging)
With the Charge mentioned above i'd lose 5 AC
Would Make a touch attack with +11 to trip the enemy
Opposed Strength Check with +9 (imp. Trip + Str)
Attack 1: +15 (11 + 4 (lying)) with 2d8+17 dmg
Attack 2: +15 (11 + 4 (lying)) with 2d8+17 dmg
Attack 3: +10 (6 + 4 (lying)) with 2d8+17 dmg

is that correct?Looks to be, yeah.

Dorna
2010-08-26, 09:07 AM
I should combine alls that with leap attack and 10 levels of frenzied berserker. 8 Point of dmg / point in power attack.. and my dm says deepwarden ist broken.. o0

Greenish
2010-08-26, 09:11 AM
I should combine alls that with leap attack and 10 levels of frenzied berserker.And then you enchant your weapon with Valorous so it deals double damage with charge.

And then you don't have a gaming group anymore. :smallamused:

Dorna
2010-08-26, 09:18 AM
Sounds like fun.. for a short time. But after killing my group, i don't think, they will make new ones for me.
So perhaps i'll leave out shock trooper, leap attack and frenzied berserker and look for some less cheesy stuff ;)

Dorna
2010-08-26, 09:59 AM
Perhaps dropping Shock Trooper and Imp. Bullrush and take Dodge and Combat Expertise instead to reach Karmic Strike with Level 9 could work better...

Karmic Strike without Combat Reflexes doesn't make much sense. damn.. need help! my built is to powerful :(

Greenish
2010-08-26, 10:05 AM
Perhaps dropping Shock Trooper and Imp. Bullrush and take Dodge and Combat Expertise instead to reach Karmic Strike with Level 9 could work better...

Karmic Strike without Combat Reflexes doesn't make much sense. damn.. need help! my built is to powerful :(What caused you to abandon the original unarmed combatant idea? You can optimize unarmed strikes quite a bit without breaking anything.

Critical
2010-08-26, 10:11 AM
If your DM is afraid of deepwarden... Just go a straight fighter with a spiked chain, there's always some use for your feats.

Dorna
2010-08-26, 10:21 AM
I played a chainfighter in 3.0 once. Would be better in 3.5, but i try to get some variety in my chars.

I tried something unarmed with barb/monk/fist of the forest.. but that was not really satisfying. Maybe i should take a look on the Frostrager...

Greenish
2010-08-26, 10:41 AM
. I tried something unarmed with barb/monk/fist of the forest.. but that was not really satisfying. Maybe i should take a look on the Frostrager...Barb3/fighter2/fotf3 with imp. natural attack has three 2d8 base damage unarmed strikes a turn (while frenzying) and a 1d6 bite at best attack bonus (when trancing).

Your unarmed strike also automatically counts as a magic weapon. Savage Species has Amulet of Natural Attacks, that can add enhancement bonuses and weapon properties to your natural attacks for (600 + enhancement cost x number of natural weapons), so a +1 Amulet of Natural Attacks for your unarmed strike would be only 2600 gp, much more reasonable than the hugely overpriced Amulet of Mighty Fists.

You can fit in Great Fortitude, Imp. Natural Attack, Power Attack, Imp. Unarmed Strike and Extra Rage there (Imp. Trip from barb 2 if you want, too). Then you can go Bear Warrior when you level up, which is especially cool if your DM allows you to use Unarmed Strikes in bear form, which should work by rules (and makes bear form far more useful, since otherwise it loses power fast due to lack of attacks).

Barb 3 the trap sense can be traded to Trapkiller ACF from Dungeonscape, allowing you to find traps with Survival and disarm them by attacking them. If that doesn't interest you (or multiclassing rules are enforced), you can swap a level of barbarian for ranger for skills, wand using and free Track.

See if your DM allows you to take the flaw Meager Fortitude so that you can grab Great Fortitude with that feat. The end result is -1 to fort save, but you've got the prerequisite for FotF.