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Morithias
2010-08-24, 04:17 PM
In the legendary tarrasque it says that you need to use wish to 'keep it dead'. Now someone is probably not going to use a raise dead spell on that monster, but could you use this wish on a normal person?

Could you use a wish spell along the lines of "I wish that this person could not be brought back to life." Not really destroying the soul, but more like locking them in the afterlife.

Necrotic Termination can destroy someone so you need epic magic (soul is destroyed, literally gone from existance) and it's a level 9 spell.

What do you Dm's think? Would you let a PC do this?

Talon Sky
2010-08-24, 04:21 PM
I would allow it, it's within the rules. Except wishing to keep another PC dead....in my games, PCs have the blessing of Higher Powers (whether they know it or not) and one would not be able to wish them into permanent afterlife. The Gods simply wouldn't power that kind of magic, or the good Gods would stop the evil ones from doing so.

Morithias
2010-08-24, 04:25 PM
I would allow it, it's within the rules. Except wishing to keep another PC dead....in my games, PCs have the blessing of Higher Powers (whether they know it or not) and one would not be able to wish them into permanent afterlife. The Gods simply wouldn't power that kind of magic, or the good Gods would stop the evil ones from doing so.

Well wishing another PC perm dead, is less of what I like to call a "PC" action, and more of a "Player is a jerk who needs a World's largest Dungeon (hardcover) to the head" action.

So yeah. Agree with you there.

Asheram
2010-08-24, 04:28 PM
In the legendary tarrasque it says that you need to use wish to 'keep it dead'. Now someone is probably not going to use a raise dead spell on that monster, but could you use this wish on a normal person?

Could you use a wish spell along the lines of "I wish that this person could not be brought back to life." Not really destroying the soul, but more like locking them in the afterlife.

Necrotic Termination can destroy someone so you need epic magic (soul is destroyed, literally gone from existance) and it's a level 9 spell.

What do you Dm's think? Would you let a PC do this?

Uhm. Well... I'd allow it. But only in an Neutral-Evil campaign and then there'd be hell to pay.

Morithias
2010-08-24, 04:30 PM
Uhm. Well... I'd allow it. But only in an Neutral-Evil campaign and then there'd be hell to pay.

Why? I mean, if you just beat the big bad, you might as well keep him dead rather than risk him coming back. I mean, instead of having his cleric dragon just true res him every time he dies.

Remmirath
2010-08-24, 04:31 PM
I'd allow it, if they can come up with a way to phrase it that doesn't have a loophole to do something terrible to them instead or just backfire completely. I'd allow any wish that they can phrase well enough I can't think of a way to interpret it so that bad things happen to them (and yes, if the character has vastly higher intelligence or wisdom than the player I will let them roll a check for it). I will, however, always interpret the phrasing in the worst possible way for them as I believe that to be in the spirit of the spell. :smallbiggrin:

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-08-24, 04:34 PM
If there are conditions on the perma-death that make it no more powerful than trap the soul, which wish can freely emulate, then there would definitely be no problem. Basically, there will still be some sort of escape clause that won’t guarantee the effect keeping them dead will be permanent.

Beorn080
2010-08-24, 04:34 PM
I'm actually gonna vote no.

From what I can recall, the Tarrasque is a special case. I can't remember where I read this, may have been a 2E book, but no matter how thoroughly you kill the Tarrasque, even if you hit it with a Sphere of Annihilation, it will reappear somewhere, unless you use a wish to break it's cycle.

Besides, simply Wishing all your problems away is a bit easy. Plus, its not really within the rules. A better use would be a pair of wishes, autosucceed followed by Temporal Statis mimic, to lock a creature into an unbreakable stasis, then fling it into the sun. But strictly, it can't stop a creature from being revived, since almost all of those are 9th level effects.

Ignition
2010-08-24, 04:37 PM
What's the worst that can happen if a character/monster is Wished into perma-death, for ever, for real, for serious? Just means someone has to come up with a new character/monster, right?

That's all from a meta-perspective, naturally. I can't speak to individual morality - as I rarely let that influence my decisions in favor of utility - but I don't see any rules reason why that shouldn't work.

Beorn080
2010-08-24, 04:43 PM
Well, it isn't a listed power, and I'm pretty sure there aren't any spells that can completely and utterly block ressing once the creature is actually dead. The main one, Trap the Soul, doesn't actually kill, and the other biggie, Imprisonment, is another no kill spell.

Now, Miracle would do it, assuming the god approved, and the targets god didn't get in the way.

Morithias
2010-08-24, 04:49 PM
Well, it isn't a listed power, and I'm pretty sure there aren't any spells that can completely and utterly block ressing once the creature is actually dead. The main one, Trap the Soul, doesn't actually kill, and the other biggie, Imprisonment, is another no kill spell.

Now, Miracle would do it, assuming the god approved, and the targets god didn't get in the way.

Necrotic Termination, you need to take a feat for it (Libra Morris), which doesn't even have an alignment requirement grants you access to 9 special spells.

The level 9 spell, destroy's the target's soul. And no, I am not exaggerating, it flat out says not even wish or miracle can bring them back. they are literally erased from existence. not in the afterlife, literally gone.

Beorn080
2010-08-24, 04:53 PM
Necrotic Termination, you need to take a feat for it (Libra Morris), which doesn't even have an alignment requirement grants you access to 9 special spells.

The level 9 spell, destroy's the target's soul. And no, I am not exaggerating, it flat out says not even wish or miracle can bring them back. they are literally erased from existence. not in the afterlife, literally gone.

Since Wish can only emulate 8th and lower, I'm not sure if that helps. Why not just use Necrotic Termination then?

Morithias
2010-08-24, 04:56 PM
Since Wish can only emulate 8th and lower, I'm not sure if that helps. Why not just use Necrotic Termination then?

Well besides the fact you have to spend a feat on it, and the whole making up the reason why your LG wizard decided to destroy the Black Knight's Soul which is probably one of the most evil things you can do in the whole game.

I really think it would just make more sense for the wizard to use wish "just to make sure, his second-in-command-who-fled-the-base doesn't bring him back to life to start more trouble."

Jack_Simth
2010-08-24, 05:03 PM
Since Wish can only emulate 8th and lower, I'm not sure if that helps. Why not just use Necrotic Termination then?
It's got some harsh requirements for the setup. Specifically, you first need to hit them with a 2nd level touch-range spell... and they have to fail their save against that for them to even be a valid target for Necrotic Termination.

Morithias
2010-08-24, 05:05 PM
It's got some harsh requirements for the setup. Specifically, you first need to hit them with a 2nd level touch-range spell... and they have to fail their save against that for them to even be a valid target for Necrotic Termination.

Yes, but it's also a lot harsher. I mean even if you're an evil wizard using wish to keep your archenemy dead cause you didn't take the mother cyst feat. I'd take being trapped forever in celestia with no hope of being brought back (with the exception of maybe using another wish spell to break the first), than being ERASED FROM EXISTENCE.

Thurbane
2010-08-24, 05:10 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/vi05fs.jpg

tyckspoon
2010-08-24, 05:29 PM
than being ERASED FROM EXISTENCE.

There's a Truename spell that does this too, but.. you know, Truenaming. It's such an absurd hassle to do that you're much more likely to run into Necrotic Termination, or the Barghest's Feast spell which destroys a body and soul as if eaten by a Barghest (so 50% chance of being unrecoverable.)

It should be noted that most of the options for irreparable destruction of a soul are (Evil); for Neutral/Goodish options, your best option is generally trapping the soul instead, such as by killing the enemy with a Thinaun weapon and then rendering the soul-enriched dagger unfindable (an Evil character would just use the soul as magic-crafting XP, which, yes, destroys the soul for any other purpose.)

Jack_Simth
2010-08-24, 05:29 PM
Yes, but it's also a lot harsher. I mean even if you're an evil wizard using wish to keep your archenemy dead cause you didn't take the mother cyst feat. I'd take being trapped forever in celestia with no hope of being brought back (with the exception of maybe using another wish spell to break the first), than being ERASED FROM EXISTENCE.
Well, yes. But there's also Core ways to do it without resorting to Wish.

Method 1 (or "What do you mean, I can't raise him because he's walking around somewhere?"):
1) Kill the guy
2) Animate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) his corpse as a skeleton, zombie, or other undead under your control (check the methods of rezzing: Almost nothing can bypass this while the undead is still active).
3) Toss the animate corpse into a Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole) (so he's on a different plane).
4) Arrange for a Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) and a Permanent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) on the inside of the Portable Hole.
5) Close the hole (sealing off the demiplane).
6) Destroy the magic item.

(If you're keeping track, he can't come back to life when his corpse is still animate. His animated corpse is stuck on a dimensional-travel-proof & scry-proof demiplane that has no method of access)

Method 2 ("What do you mean '404 soul not found'?"):
1) Kill Him.
2) Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) him.
3) Dispose of the soul gem in the same way you disposed of the zombie/skeleton, in method 1.

(If you're keeping track, he can't come back to life because his soul is stuck in a gem which is stuck on a dimensional-travel-proof & scry-proof demiplane that has no method of access)

Method 3 ("What do you mean 'he's not dead'?")
1) Stone Him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm)
2) Make his name Mudd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) (check with your DM on this one, though - some people will consider the result of Flesh to Stone 'Magical stone' or 'worked stone', so this won't fly with all DM's)
3) Clean up (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/purifyFoodAndDrink.htm)
4) Bless Him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWater.htm)
5) Use him as the Material Component (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#materialM) to Consecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm) a new temple.

(If you're keeping track, he's not actually dead. He's just stoned, turned to mud (and then to water), and the water is utterly destroyed by way of using it as a material component. But none of this technically kills him, so he can't be raised... as he's not dead.)

There's probably more. The Book of Vile Darkness (I think) includes rules for consuming souls, using them as spell components, and similar - again, utterly destroying them.

Of course, as a mortal, you can't do much to prevent Divine Intervention (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife).

Randel
2010-08-24, 05:55 PM
Or you could devise some way to arrange so that he dies of old age and thus cannot be resurrected by normal magic.

Wish for them to die of old age (or "rapidly age until they die of old age and thus cannot be resurrected by normal means" if you are worried that your DM will pulls some literal genie garbage with you.)

Or give them a ring of sustenance so they don't need to eat, breath, or drink. Then tie them up, bind and gag them, stuff them in a box, fill the box with dirt until they can't move (but aren't crushed) and then bury it somewhere where they will live happily ever after until they die of old age. This is probably considered cruel and unusual punishment that would change your alignment towards evil... only use it if the DM screws with your 'let them die of old age rapidly' wish.

Or create a demiplane where people can't escape from and one billion years passes inside for every second that passes outside. Toss them into the demiplane and let them turn into fossil fuel in one round. Possibly just as evil as the previous one, only use it if the DM messes with your 'let them die of old age rapidly' wish.

Beorn080
2010-08-24, 06:13 PM
You could trick them into worshipping the Lady of Pain with some Diplomancy, but you'd probably get whacked in the bargain. Pretty sure she doesn't allow resurrections.

Morithias
2010-08-24, 07:30 PM
You could trick them into worshipping the Lady of Pain with some Diplomancy, but you'd probably get whacked in the bargain. Pretty sure she doesn't allow resurrections.

And if you're not playing in the forgotten realms?

Thurbane
2010-08-24, 07:39 PM
And if you're not playing in the forgotten realms?
Lady of Pain is Planescape/Sigil...not FR. You may be thinking of Loviatar.

...IIRC, the 2E DMG had some advice on Wishing other creatures dead...something to the effect of the wishing character will be shunted forward in time to a point where the victim had died of natural (or other) causes.

Morithias
2010-08-24, 07:53 PM
Lady of Pain is Planescape/Sigil...not FR. You may be thinking of Loviatar.

...IIRC, the 2E DMG had some advice on Wishing other creatures dead...something to the effect of the wishing character will be shunted forward in time to a point where the victim had died of natural (or other) causes.

Ok then. Then one might be able to argue using that. Of course there's always the chance that the DM will screw everyone over and send everyone forward killing you too, but hey it's the best I've got so far.

BobVosh
2010-08-25, 02:57 AM
Method 3 ("What do you mean 'he's not dead'?")
1) Stone Him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm)
2) Make his name Mudd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) (check with your DM on this one, though - some people will consider the result of Flesh to Stone 'Magical stone' or 'worked stone', so this won't fly with all DM's)
3) Clean up (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/purifyFoodAndDrink.htm)
4) Bless Him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWater.htm)
5) Use him as the Material Component (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#materialM) to Consecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm) a new temple.

(If you're keeping track, he's not actually dead. He's just stoned, turned to mud (and then to water), and the water is utterly destroyed by way of using it as a material component. But none of this technically kills him, so he can't be raised... as he's not dead.)

I would argue that once you use him in a spell that destroys all remaining parts of him, he is dead.

W3bDragon
2010-08-25, 03:37 AM
Since Wish can only emulate 8th and lower, I'm not sure if that helps. Why not just use Necrotic Termination then?

You could add restrictions to your wish to lower its power. If the OP just wants to throw out a wish to reduce the chance of his target being resurrected, then perhaps the wish could be along the lines of:

"I wish that (target) could not be brought back to life, unless the attempt to bring him back to life takes place in (choose random plane or set of planes)."

The odds of whoever tries the resurrection knowing which plane will work are slim, since only the caster would know.

Vinyadan
2010-08-25, 04:03 AM
Or create a demiplane where people can't escape from and one billion years passes inside for every second that passes outside. Toss them into the demiplane and let them turn into fossil fuel in one round. Possibly just as evil as the previous one, only use it if the DM messes with your 'let them die of old age rapidly' wish.

Then, create a beautiful demiplane full of life and girls (or whatever the guy liked) without means of escape. This way, you are less evil than anyone else, as you just condamned him to lifetime emprisonment into a really enjoyable place. If you are lawful good, the guy is really dangerous, there is no immediate ruling authority to which give him and you saw him attempt multiple murder (which is, trying to wipe out your party), I'm sure this would be a legitimate act.

Tyrmatt
2010-08-25, 07:15 AM
Then, create a beautiful demiplane full of life and girls (or whatever the guy liked) without means of escape. This way, you are less evil than anyone else, as you just condamned him to lifetime emprisonment into a really enjoyable place. If you are lawful good, the guy is really dangerous, there is no immediate ruling authority to which give him and you saw him attempt multiple murder (which is, trying to wipe out your party), I'm sure this would be a legitimate act.

Kinda reminds me of the thing the Angel does in Good Omens when he becomes so annoyed with a soldier who is impeding him he makes him...go away. Even Crowley the Devil is impressed and its implied that this can be used to send people to really horrible places.

The soldier of course wakes up at home, Mom's Apple Pie cooking in the oven and his family waiting for him.

I kinda like the idea of using Wish to form a kind of eternal bond between the souls. If anyone attempts to raise or revivify the bad guy in any way, the spell is compelled to reanimate you in some form. This means that every time someone raises the ultimate evil, the person who defeated it is also brought back, thus completing the circle. Kind of a reverse Harry-Voldemort thing.

I wonder if it was intended that the Tarrasque needs to be wished dead because of a physiological thing or a magical thing. Does it simply just continue regenerating even after death until it is fine again or does some magic repair the damage.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-25, 07:24 AM
I would argue that once you use him in a spell that destroys all remaining parts of him, he is dead.Not all methods fly with all DM's. Okay. So instead of Blessing him, pour the water into a cup, give it to a mook, give the mook a Third Eye Conceal, both of you hop into a Portable hole (which another mook closes behind you), use Imprisonment on the Mook, have the other mook open the portable hole after a sepcified length of time, cast a Forbiddance inside the portable hole, close the portable hole up (to seal the demiplane), then destroy the portable hole (permanently sealing the demiplane).

The remains, still technically living, of the BBEG are are:
1) Transmuted to a small amount water
2) In the posession of a scry-proof individual
3) Who is in stasis
4) Who is entombed deep beneath the earth
5) On a demiplane
6) That is planar Travel blocked
7) And has no entrance.