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View Full Version : Alternate approach to undeath: Opinions wanted.



CN the Logos
2010-08-24, 07:49 PM
So, I'm about to start DMing a new game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164770), which is set in a semi-original cosmology, and will contain a decent amount of monsters for the players to kill or avoid as they see fit. Some of these monsters will be undead.

As I got to writing up my plans for the campaign however, I recalled something that had been bothering me for awhile about the way D&D 3.5 handles undeath, when compared to mythology, and I for one find my games more immersive when they stay true to the folklore they're based on. However, I'd like some more feedback on my idea before I use it, since it affects several spells and class features.

The problem:

Myths regarding the undead include no references of any kind to "negative energy"

Undead as "life's goatee-wearing evil twin" is apparently the dominant paradigm used in the sourcebooks for D&D 3.5. And this is unfortunate, because it really doesn't have a mythological basis other than possibly Manicheanism or Zoroastrianism, neither of which are known for their folklore regarding the undead.

Older myths regarding vampires and similar beings (i.e., corporeal undead in general) make it clear they get something from the living other than the blood or flesh they physically ingest. Some legends leave out the physical cannibalism entirely, noting only that victims appeared exhausted. Other legends have the undead spreading disease, again with the implication that they do so to maintain their own existence, though some of it seems to be due to spite.

The problem with the "negative energy model" therefore becomes readily apparent: if mortals and vampires/ghouls/wights/etc... run on polar opposite forms of energy, then what the hell are the undead doing with the vitality they steal from the living? Maintaining their sanity? So in addition to some mysterious other force animating them, vampires, etc... have to deal with a separate dynamic not mentioned at all in myth? This smells like an after the fact attempt to justify an obvious contradiction between the game's creatures and the original myths, some of which explicitly mention the creature's body as being maintained by its actions. If there were a rich mythical history of corporeal undead that didn't apparently need to hurt people on a regular basis to compare vampires to, staying sane might at least be an equally plausible alternative, but there isn't.

Moreover the undead have to hurt people. With the exception of a very few creatures that have returned to complete a specific task and then die for real, the undead* are all portrayed as monstrous abominations. They don't eat animals. They kill and/or eat people. This implies a need for something in sapient beings specifically.

The proposed solution:

I believe that a model like the following would better reflect the nature of undeath in folklore and mythology:


There is no negative energy. The energy of creation is transformed into life energy by living beings and infuses them, connecting soul to body, maintaining health, and sometimes allowing a person to survive apparently lethal wounds by sheer willpower. Normally the amount of this energy a person has access to rises and falls naturally due to effects on the material plane, such as injury or illness, but a skilled magus can alter the nature of the upper world, using a surplus of life energy to heal a person or disrupting it to harm them. When the life energy is completely exhausted from a being, that being dies.


Undead creatures are no longer living and cannot produce life energy of their own. Therefore, if they wish to maintain their physical existence, they must take it from something else. The method in which they do so varies, but often involves using a physical part of their victim's bodies to create a sympathetic link between them and their victims (by eating their flesh, drinking their blood, or simply touching them). However they do this, it is always harmful to the victim even if no obvious physical damage occurs, though he or she may recover in time.


Some beings, while no longer living, do not need to steal life energy to continue their existence. These are referred to as "deathless;" typical examples include ghosts (who exist on the ethereal plane and only influence the material plane with difficulty) and beings who have undergone a magical ritual to tie their life force to something else (liches, some mummies).


Incorporeal undead who exist on the material plane as opposed to the ethereal do need to devour life to maintain their connection to the physical world. In some cases the energy stolen in this way serves a secondary purpose; the undead being's personality has been so damaged by death that if it were to stop devouring the life force of others, it would not only be forced to return to the underworld, but totally cease to exist. However, even beings who don't strictly need to devour life sometimes choose to do so; to gain power to influence the material plane, as a sort of drug that gives them a temporary sense of euphoria and well-being, or both.


All undead are healed by spells that use life energy (formerly known as positive energy) and damaged by spells that disrupt it (formerly known as negative energy), as is the case with any other creature.


Turning/rebuking still works as normal, however it is now the result of a character's faith and willpower rather than the character channeling positive or negative energy. Because the undead's grip on physical reality is tenuous and based on spiritual actions, they are often unusually vulnerable to such things, and often have bizarre taboos which seemingly serve to strengthen their magical connection to the world.



If anyone has any thoughts on this idea, particularly regarding class features I've altered with this variant, please let me know. I'm aware 4E did something similar, but that was written into the rules from the beginning.

To all who read this, thanks for your time.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-24, 08:06 PM
Well, the change to the Inflict/Cure line of spells' effectiveness on undead weakens Divine casters marginally (the Druid can't blast away with those prepared Cure spells, the Good-aligned Cleric can't spontaneously blast the undead with Cure spells, the Evil-aligned Cleric can't spontaneously heal his undead minions, et cetera), but only in regards to Undead and Deathless - which isn't a particularly bad thing, when it comes down to it.

Otherwise, unless you're planning on having undead options for your players, it doesn't really affect much of anything.

Kalrik
2010-08-24, 08:33 PM
I think you are overthinking things. Undead are not powered by negative energy like a battery, at least how i've always viewed it. They are animated through negative energy. Seeing how most people view negative energy as something evil, something that harms, that such undead were inheriently evil. A ghoul need not feed on the flesh of a mortal to maintain it's strength...it does so to attempt to satisfy its insatable hunger...or it just likes the tasty bits of mortals. Vampires are creatures of legend and myth, so feeding on blood is just part of being part of a steriotype.

Now, one can argue that undead can be animated through positive energy. Positive energy, being viewed as good and healing energy, animates undead that are inheriently good.

Trying to rewrite the system is too labor intensive. If you are looking to have undead that dont' fit the mold, just have them. Call them remenants or deathless, or the undieing...whatever floats your boat. Give them all the undead traits without the change to HD and let bonus hp go off of Cha. Because these are remenants, they are like the living being in every way except that they are dead. The biggest thing is that this is all a fantasy game. You can have undead that are animated by butterflys and survive off the kind words of a child, and that would be perfectly acceptable because in your fantasy, they exist. :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2010-08-24, 08:37 PM
Here's a quick fix: undead aren't undead, they're constructs. What's the difference between a bone golem and a skeleton, fundamentally? How about a flesh golem and a zombie? Fluff-wise, just the magics used to create them. Why not just make all undead into constructs, then?

TaintedLight
2010-08-24, 08:40 PM
The divine spark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_spark) is an ancient concept going back even further than Grecian pre-Socratic philosophy to describe the animating force that causes a man to be able to rise in the morning, interact his world, and peacefully pass from this life when it leaves him. Positive energy is an appalling oversimplification of that very same notion in my opinion, although it is distinct in the terms of 3.5 from the soul, especially once you include things like Incarnum. That's a sticky philorulesophical mess though.

Negative energy, on the other hand, is the mockery of the Breath of Life that God(s) the Creator(s) breathe into every mortal who is born. Undead are not just hungry for the souls of the living. They do not exist only to torment the living by consuming or killing them. They exist to mock and tear down the vital force that animates the living. My 2 cp, anyway.

Analytica
2010-08-24, 08:43 PM
I agree wholeheartedly on the problem, and in a game with players who like to spend hours having their necromancer characters discussing theory and trying to hack living or dead creatures to achieve their ridiculously complex plans, this does actually matter to play.

I also agree that the best solution is to simply make them constructs. There could be a Reanimated subtype or something to denote them for the purpose of specific effects. Remove positive and negative energy; cure/inflict spells are simply highly complex organic repair/shatter spells. This should not affect balance overly.

A slightly more complex system would be one like what you propose; I do something vaguely similar in the homebrew setting I am working on. Basically, the equivalent of psionic power points can only be accumulated by living tissue. Hence undead must devour this energy from the living, drain it from sources like enchanted places, or be refuelled periodically by a necromancer. Undead spellcasters, then, cannot regain power by resting, but needs it from an outside source.

tonberrian
2010-08-24, 09:06 PM
Here's a quick fix: undead aren't undead, they're constructs. What's the difference between a bone golem and a skeleton, fundamentally? How about a flesh golem and a zombie? Fluff-wise, just the magics used to create them. Why not just make all undead into constructs, then?

I never really liked this approach. Construct, as a term, implies something that was built. Aside from those you animate yourself, undead really aren't - they generally either spontaneously form from unusual circumstances or spawn from the remains of those killed by other undead, depending on exact variety.

Mechanically, you'd either consolidate or remove abilities that only deal with one type or another, and I'd put Turn Undead (for example) both central enough to not remove yet paradoxically to much work to keep.

As for the TC, yes, this has bothered me, but I don't have a satisfactory answer.

CN the Logos
2010-08-25, 12:46 AM
Well, the change to the Inflict/Cure line of spells' effectiveness on undead weakens Divine casters marginally (the Druid can't blast away with those prepared Cure spells, the Good-aligned Cleric can't spontaneously blast the undead with Cure spells, the Evil-aligned Cleric can't spontaneously heal his undead minions, et cetera), but only in regards to Undead and Deathless - which isn't a particularly bad thing, when it comes down to it.

Otherwise, unless you're planning on having undead options for your players, it doesn't really affect much of anything.

That's what I wanted to be sure of. Thanks.


I think you are overthinking things. Undead are not powered by negative energy like a battery, at least how i've always viewed it. They are animated through negative energy. Seeing how most people view negative energy as something evil, something that harms, that such undead were inheriently evil.

Problem with that view is, as I've stated, that there is no reason for any sort of "negative energy" to exist at all. None of the myths I want to emulate in my games even hint at such a thing. The only way it makes sense is if you explicitly want to create a dualistic universe, and I don't.


A ghoul need not feed on the flesh of a mortal to maintain it's strength...it does so to attempt to satisfy its insatable hunger...or it just likes the tasty bits of mortals. Vampires are creatures of legend and myth, so feeding on blood is just part of being part of a steriotype.

Ah, but in worlds that make sense, we have things called "causes" which must proceed the things we call "effects."


Now, one can argue that undead can be animated through positive energy. Positive energy, being viewed as good and healing energy, animates undead that are inheriently good.

But I've just stated that the idea of there being more than one type of energy doesn't fit with actual myth at all, and I like to base my games at least slightly on real world legends to create verisimilitude.


Trying to rewrite the system is too labor intensive. If you are looking to have undead that dont' fit the mold, just have them.

I actually agree here, though I don't think what I proposed was anything like rewriting the system. Rewriting a page of rules and some fluff for the cleric class, but hardly a system.


The divine spark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_spark) is an ancient concept going back even further than Grecian pre-Socratic philosophy to describe the animating force that causes a man to be able to rise in the morning, interact his world, and peacefully pass from this life when it leaves him. Positive energy is an appalling oversimplification of that very same notion in my opinion, although it is distinct in the terms of 3.5 from the soul, especially once you include things like Incarnum. That's a sticky philorulesophical mess though.

I'm well aware that there are multiple religions and philosophies that separate the vital spark from the conscious mind. I don't even want to get into Incarnum though. I don't have the book, don't want to learn another system to add something to my game that didn't excite me that much when I heard it summarized, and as my opening suggests, feel no need to consider the creators of the game a great authority on world-building.


Negative energy, on the other hand, is the mockery of the Breath of Life that God(s) the Creator(s) breathe into every mortal who is born. Undead are not just hungry for the souls of the living. They do not exist only to torment the living by consuming or killing them. They exist to mock and tear down the vital force that animates the living. My 2 cp, anyway.

But... why? Why does negative energy exist? What purpose does it serve? Even prior to modern science it was generally accepted that death was just a lack of life, be that life created by some sort of otherworldly force or just an arrangement of atoms. Unless you want to emphasize that creation occurs by the meeting of opposites in your campaign world, it's a totally extraneous idea.

Undead can still be hateful mockeries of all life, and should be that in most cases. They just don't need a whole separate spiritual system to be that.


I agree wholeheartedly on the problem, and in a game with players who like to spend hours having their necromancer characters discussing theory and trying to hack living or dead creatures to achieve their ridiculously complex plans, this does actually matter to play.

I also agree that the best solution is to simply make them constructs. There could be a Reanimated subtype or something to denote them for the purpose of specific effects. Remove positive and negative energy; cure/inflict spells are simply highly complex organic repair/shatter spells. This should not affect balance overly.

This was pretty much the solution I had in mind, except I was going to keep them a completely separate type for the purposes of BAB, skills, and other effects. Construct implies construction. I am removing the line about resistance though; maybe in the future, when I have more time, I can create more developed rules for healing a half-starved undead being. For the current campaign, however, this simple version should suffice.


A slightly more complex system would be one like what you propose; I do something vaguely similar in the homebrew setting I am working on. Basically, the equivalent of psionic power points can only be accumulated by living tissue. Hence undead must devour this energy from the living, drain it from sources like enchanted places, or be refuelled periodically by a necromancer. Undead spellcasters, then, cannot regain power by resting, but needs it from an outside source.

See, I was planning a similar system, but I hadn't worked out a perfect way of keeping track of the hunger the undead must feel or the damage they take for going without sustenance. At the moment this is fine, since I don't expect hordes of undead to occur until later levels, but I have a more open-world homebrew setting that could benefit from a more developed approach.


Mechanically, you'd either consolidate or remove abilities that only deal with one type or another, and I'd put Turn Undead (for example) both central enough to not remove yet paradoxically to much work to keep.

It's just a matter of changing fluff with what I'm suggesting. Unless you meant with undead as constructs, which doesn't make much sense to me either; if there's enough variation between humanoids to require monstrous humanoids as a separate type, I know there's enough difference between an iron golem and a vampire to justify them being separate types.


As for the TC, yes, this has bothered me, but I don't have a satisfactory answer.

Well, that makes two other people who think I'm not crazy for being annoyed by it, at least. I was a bit worried about that.

Melayl
2010-08-25, 08:39 AM
I'd have to agree with the OP as well, and like what was proposed. Yes, it would take some work to figure out mechanics for hunger/feeding and such, but it could be fun (for a campaign that featured undead more prominently).

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-25, 08:55 AM
ok forget the words negative energy

think ravenloft: if the demiplane makes you undead or a werewolf or a wolfwere or just makes the one time you experimented in canibalism a continuing need, it happens. in a metaphysical way you can consider it negative energy or some counterpoint to divinity, but in reality:

THE ONE LEGGED HALFLING ATE YOUR CLERIC, THE BARMAID, THEN SHUT THE DOORS WITH A GLANCE! AND NOW? SHE'S COMING STRAIGHT AT YOU! NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO PLAY PHILOSOPHER! WHATDOYOUDONOW?!?!

no really sometimes when dealing with darker forces you have to simplify it to the players. if you want to add a mechanic by which some undead or templated beings get weaker without the flesh/ blood/ souls/eyes of the living, go to it.

Ignition
2010-08-25, 09:03 AM
Here's another option (that may or may not break down after a certain point):

Negative energy is, like magnetic force and nuclear force and so on, the force of entropy and decay, whereas positive energy is the force of sustanence and growth. This would be more like a Yin/Yang kind of mythology, where people have different balance points of Negative Energy and Positive Energy in their souls, some actions push this balance to one direction or the other, etc. Undead are what happens when someone's Yang (Negative Energy in this example) gets pushed too far out of whack; relatedly, maybe you could convert 'good' divine beings like angels into people whose Yin (Positive Energy) is too far out of whack, or just say that both extremes generate different kinds/demeanors of undead. In other words, extreme actions of one side or another, being unbalanced from the centerpoint between Yin and Yang, eventually ends in unnatural creatures being spawned.

The important thing to keep in mind, is Yin and Yang must both exist to promote life; they're two halves of a larger whole, delicately balanced against each other. Negative energy is just as necessary for life to continue as Positive energy, and it is the extremes in both directions which cause problems.

This is a more Chinese approach, so I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but it's another option.

WarKitty
2010-08-25, 09:09 AM
A couple of suggestions that might help:

(1) All clerics spontaneously channel positive energy. Optional, but makes up for the fact that an evil cleric can no longer heal their undead army.

(2) Certain undead (e.g. liches) have created a source of permanent energy to sustain them. In the case of traditionally evil undead such as liches and mummies, this typically takes the case of sacrificing and binding one or more living souls. Other undead, such as ghosts, are bound by pure spiritual ties (and thus have varying alignments as humanoids do).

Ignition
2010-08-25, 09:25 AM
All clerics spontaneously channel positive energy. Optional, but makes up for the fact that an evil cleric can no longer heal their undead army.

Ahh, I knew I forgot something. Thanks for inadvertently reminding me :smallbiggrin:

In the Yin/Yang example I listed above, clerics would be about 'restoring balance' rather than promoting one kind of energy or the other; in essence, any cleric would be allowed to use both positive energy and negative energy as the situation saw fit. The truly deviant clerics, the ones who are intentionally skewing people into being undead with negative energy, would likely be working with negative energy mostly. Generally speaking though, whatever religious organizations exist in this world would probably be about contemplation and balancing your life, promoting harmony and peace, rather than righteously crusading against evil.

Druids would likely be working with similar goals, just different methods. Paladins and Rangers would likely be soldiers and scouts who work to guard clerics and druids respectively, and would need some kind of re-balancing around the idea of being balance-oriented, rather than anti-evil oriented.

Quietus
2010-08-25, 10:06 AM
Problem with that view is, as I've stated, that there is no reason for any sort of "negative energy" to exist at all. None of the myths I want to emulate in my games even hint at such a thing. The only way it makes sense is if you explicitly want to create a dualistic universe, and I don't.

There was another thread not long ago on these boards where someone mentioned the idea of negative energy not as a force of its own, but as a complete lack of positive energy - a vacuum, if you will. Maybe this would work? You then have spells that use negative energy (such as inflict spells and enervation) existing as a burst of "nothing", essentially, leaving the targets suffering because their own personal Positive Energy has been devoured by the "Negative" (in the "lack of" sense) energy of the spell.

In this, undead are still fueled by Positive energy, technically... but the reason for that is that they have been twisted and warped, and now essentially have an open whirlpool to the Negative Energy Plane (or the void, or however you want to reword it) inside of them, sucking in all the Positive energy it can and warping it to fuel their horrific forms. As a result, Negative Energy spells still heal them, by strengthening this whirlpool's ability to pull in and warp the positive energy around them, and Positive Energy spells do still harm them, because they can only process energy that their "souls" - the whirlpool negative energy vortices - have properly warped. Positive energy, drawn directly from the Positive Energy Plane (the source, whatever - and this makes actual Conjuration : Healing make sense!) is too pure, too raw, and acts as the counter to these "whirlpools", weakening them the same way negative energy weakens living creatures.


As a nice(?) side effect, this can have real-world effects; Instantaneous/short duration Positive and Negative energy effects come and go so quickly that their effect is minor, but any Negative energy effect means that life is literally being drained from the area around them. Positive energy effects instead draw more life energy directly to the material plane. The use of these more or less balances out.. but then there's undead. As active whirlpools of negative energy, they're constantly drawing off and warping positive energy to fuel themselves. A single skeleton, or zombie, or whatever isn't a huge drain in and of itself.. but for every undead still in existence, life itself is weakened. More powerful undead - ghouls, vampires, mhorgs, etc - require more than just the drawing of ambient energy to fuel them, which is why they consume some aspect of living creatures, to fill the rest of that void. Skeletons and zombies, despite being mindless, will act on "Evil" - or at least negative - impulses when not being actively controlled, destroying life around them to create a setting ever more suitable for them to live in.


I've expanded on the original idea a bit, I think, and justified a few things in that.. but I think I'm going to be using the above for my own setting, because it fits in with the "creation of undead = warping of the original creature's soul" that I already had going. Plus it's just so deliciously flavorful!

CN the Logos
2010-08-25, 09:02 PM
Here's another option (that may or may not break down after a certain point):

Negative energy is, like magnetic force and nuclear force and so on, the force of entropy and decay, whereas positive energy is the force of sustanence and growth. This would be more like a Yin/Yang kind of mythology, where people have different balance points of Negative Energy and Positive Energy in their souls, some actions push this balance to one direction or the other, etc. Undead are what happens when someone's Yang (Negative Energy in this example) gets pushed too far out of whack; relatedly, maybe you could convert 'good' divine beings like angels into people whose Yin (Positive Energy) is too far out of whack, or just say that both extremes generate different kinds/demeanors of undead. In other words, extreme actions of one side or another, being unbalanced from the centerpoint between Yin and Yang, eventually ends in unnatural creatures being spawned.

The important thing to keep in mind, is Yin and Yang must both exist to promote life; they're two halves of a larger whole, delicately balanced against each other. Negative energy is just as necessary for life to continue as Positive energy, and it is the extremes in both directions which cause problems.

This is a more Chinese approach, so I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but it's another option.

If I ever do a more traditional campaign, I may do something along those lines. It still requires some retooling of the default setting (which assumes the existence of capital "G" Good and capital "E" Evil), but it makes sense.


A couple of suggestions that might help:

(1) All clerics spontaneously channel positive energy. Optional, but makes up for the fact that an evil cleric can no longer heal their undead army.

I think I might just let all clerics choose which they want to do (although it doen't apply much to this game, since I specified I wanted Tier 2 and under). If you want to heal things, you can heal everything, and vice versa if you want to hurt things. Good thought though; I needed to address that somehow.


(2) Certain undead (e.g. liches) have created a source of permanent energy to sustain them. In the case of traditionally evil undead such as liches and mummies, this typically takes the case of sacrificing and binding one or more living souls. Other undead, such as ghosts, are bound by pure spiritual ties (and thus have varying alignments as humanoids do).

That's where I was going with:


Some beings, while no longer living, do not need to steal life energy to continue their existence. These are referred to as "deathless;" typical examples include ghosts (who exist on the ethereal plane and only influence the material plane with difficulty) and beings who have undergone a magical ritual to tie their life force to something else (liches, some mummies).

Having ghosts be able to do more without eating people because of their "unfinished business" is a good idea too. That combined with the fact that they actually "live" on a world made of purely spiritual matter and mostly just project an image of themselves into the material world when they want to influence things or make themselves known explains why they aren't always evil the way most undead in this setting idea are.

I wasn't planning to make liches or mummies automatically evil, though. Mummies are created to enjoy the afterlife while still being able to guard their own tomb if need be. Liches are just casters who have managed to cheat the system the way casters always do. Unfortunately, the default process to become a lich takes nine years (for humans, other races might take longer or shorter based on lifespan), requires the caster to level up four times without gaining HD, caster levels, etc..., has a high failure rate, and tends to leave the successes insane. There are precious few liches at all, let alone nice ones, so players may never notice the difference.


Ahh, I knew I forgot something. Thanks for inadvertently reminding me :smallbiggrin:

In the Yin/Yang example I listed above, clerics would be about 'restoring balance' rather than promoting one kind of energy or the other; in essence, any cleric would be allowed to use both positive energy and negative energy as the situation saw fit. The truly deviant clerics, the ones who are intentionally skewing people into being undead with negative energy, would likely be working with negative energy mostly. Generally speaking though, whatever religious organizations exist in this world would probably be about contemplation and balancing your life, promoting harmony and peace, rather than righteously crusading against evil.

Druids would likely be working with similar goals, just different methods. Paladins and Rangers would likely be soldiers and scouts who work to guard clerics and druids respectively, and would need some kind of re-balancing around the idea of being balance-oriented, rather than anti-evil oriented.

Might be an interesting campaign setting, although I find too much focus on "balance between good and evil" makes me lose interest; if it all balances out in the end anyhow, why am I fighting, except to save my skin in the here and now? It might not have to be that way though, some dualistic religions have good winning, or at least good people transcending the battleground that is the material world.


There was another thread not long ago on these boards where someone mentioned the idea of negative energy not as a force of its own, but as a complete lack of positive energy - a vacuum, if you will. Maybe this would work? You then have spells that use negative energy (such as inflict spells and enervation) existing as a burst of "nothing", essentially, leaving the targets suffering because their own personal Positive Energy has been devoured by the "Negative" (in the "lack of" sense) energy of the spell.

I was going for twisted life energy rather than a burst of nothingness, but that's close to what I meant.


In this, undead are still fueled by Positive energy, technically... but the reason for that is that they have been twisted and warped, and now essentially have an open whirlpool to the Negative Energy Plane (or the void, or however you want to reword it) inside of them, sucking in all the Positive energy it can and warping it to fuel their horrific forms.

Yeah, this is something like what I was thinking.


As a result, Negative Energy spells still heal them, by strengthening this whirlpool's ability to pull in and warp the positive energy around them, and Positive Energy spells do still harm them, because they can only process energy that their "souls" - the whirlpool negative energy vortices - have properly warped. Positive energy, drawn directly from the Positive Energy Plane (the source, whatever - and this makes actual Conjuration : Healing make sense!) is too pure, too raw, and acts as the counter to these "whirlpools", weakening them the same way negative energy weakens living creatures.

Well, I still sort of want healing to be healing, period, but I have to admit this makes a lot more sense then the default explanation. I just think the idea of gnilaeh sdrawkcab is extraneous; the only reasons to keep it are if you are either deliberately creating a dualistic cosmos (as Ignition suggested) or just want to keep it for the sake of D&D tradition.

The idea of processing energy to fit their bodies actually goes along with what I had already written as happening for living creatures in the setting proposed, though. The energy of creation comes from one source, living creatures transform it into a form they can use, and undead can't do that, so they have to steal the energy from someplace else. There is an interesting implication there that I hadn't thought of though, which would in turn explain why undead clerics still have to eat people. If the undead can't transform the raw magical energy of creation into life force, that means they can't cast healing spells at all unless those spells steal the energy from somewhere else.


As a nice(?) side effect, this can have real-world effects; Instantaneous/short duration Positive and Negative energy effects come and go so quickly that their effect is minor, but any Negative energy effect means that life is literally being drained from the area around them. Positive energy effects instead draw more life energy directly to the material plane. The use of these more or less balances out.. but then there's undead. As active whirlpools of negative energy, they're constantly drawing off and warping positive energy to fuel themselves. A single skeleton, or zombie, or whatever isn't a huge drain in and of itself.. but for every undead still in existence, life itself is weakened. More powerful undead - ghouls, vampires, mhorgs, etc - require more than just the drawing of ambient energy to fuel them, which is why they consume some aspect of living creatures, to fill the rest of that void.

I do like this. A lot. It emphasizes the fact that undeath is an abomination, not just a quick way of cheating mortality. Except for the fact that it once was human, a vampire is every bit as monstrous as something out of the fiction of H. P. Lovecraft. Maybe more so in some cases; a shoggoth just wants to be left alone, but a vampire has to destroy sentient beings to exist at all.


Skeletons and zombies, despite being mindless, will act on "Evil" - or at least negative - impulses when not being actively controlled, destroying life around them to create a setting ever more suitable for them to live in.

I was thinking of it more as a primitive version of what the vampire or wight does. They don't have draining or damaging abilities, but they can slaughter things, and in doing so release the life energy of what they've killed so that they can bathe in it. The urge to do this is purely instinctive, and sapient beings produce the best quality of life energy (something I should have touched on in the original post, but that's why vampires attack people instead of animals when people would care less about the animals being eaten), so the skeletons go for your party first.


I've expanded on the original idea a bit, I think, and justified a few things in that.. but I think I'm going to be using the above for my own setting, because it fits in with the "creation of undead = warping of the original creature's soul" that I already had going. Plus it's just so deliciously flavorful!

Oh yeah, you've got some good ideas here. Good luck with it.