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Alejandro
2010-08-24, 09:39 PM
The setup:

Our gaming group is about to finish a 3.5 D&D campaign. The majority of the group is entirely sick of 3.5 and utterly resolved not to play another 3.5 campaign. Not going to go into why, exactly, since I don't want this to be an argument thread about what is or is not wrong with 3.5.

So.. those of you who have experience going from 3.5 to ?, could you share some advice or experiences? We are currently examining 4E, Pathfinder, and Savage Worlds, but have only just started, so there are no strong preconceptions.

P.S. The group consists mostly of experienced, long term gamers.

Xuc Xac
2010-08-24, 10:02 PM
Unless you can tell us the specific problems your group is having with 3.5, I would suggest Savage Worlds. 4E and Pathfinder are just more D&D and might not be far enough removed from 3.5 to escape the problems you're having.

Savage Worlds is a fun versatile system for action-oriented games, but it is quite different from D&D so you'll need to be prepared for that before jumping in. I've seen a lot of long time D&D players run into problems when they try to play Savage Worlds like they would play D&D (for example SW has no dump stat so min-maxing your stats usually comes back to bite you: getting that max isn't often worth having the min). If you enjoy D&D between levels 5 and 15, you'll probably like Savage Worlds, but it doesn't handle the extremes (weak little nobody and demigod) very well.

LibraryOgre
2010-08-24, 10:11 PM
It really depends on what your problems are with 3.5. Tired of medieval campaigns? Tired of mounds of crunch? Tired of umpteen books?

Alejandro
2010-08-24, 10:12 PM
Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

LibraryOgre
2010-08-24, 10:17 PM
My current hobby horse is Castles and Crusades. It's based on a combination of 1e D&D and d20... it has things like ascending AC and a single resolution mechanic, but it's got a fairly simple and straightforward system, with characters who avoid a lot of extraneous crunchiness. It mods very easily, especially if you're familiar with earlier editions.

derfenrirwolv
2010-08-24, 10:20 PM
So.. those of you who have experience going from 3.5 to ?, could you share some advice or experiences? We are currently examining 4E

Cardboard. Its balanced because everyone has essentially the same ability.



Pathfinder

Is 3.75, what 3.5 should have been in the first place. Without know exactly why your group doesn't like 3.5 anymore, I'd hazzard a guesse that this will be waaaay to close to 3.5 for you. CODzillia is still in effect, but toned down. Everything is in one book, and fighters get feats to take all the way to 20. They're still well behind the spellcasters though.



and Savage Worlds

Mechanically simple , pretty lethal, and its different. Doesn't have nearly the range of options that 3.5 does though.



but have only just started, so there are no strong preconceptions.


i think it would be easier if we knew what TYPE of game you wanted to play... three muskateers, dungeons and dragons withtout the 3.5, you may want to try whitewolf for a bit.

Kalrik
2010-08-24, 10:24 PM
I like the flavor in pathfinder. Every class has something cool enough that multiclassing or dipping isn't as required, at least, imo.

Another great system is Mutents and Masterminds. One can build almost anything in that system.

Alejandro
2010-08-24, 10:34 PM
We want to play D&D, without the problems I mentioned above.

chaotoroboto
2010-08-24, 10:35 PM
Yeah, Savage Worlds is really good as a collaborative storytelling exercise, probably better than any other system. 4E is 3.5 with, to me, more engaging combat. And as DM, much less paperwork than anything ever. For a player benny, 4E character creation is almost as flexible as 3.5 without so many totally thrashed out combos. Pathfinder is out of my purview because it seemed silly with 3.5 and 4E both so near to hand, but I hear great things.

I haven't run anything long with it, but Savage Worlds is great for:
- Narrative puzzles
- Splitting the party
- Player input
- Mapless games
- Unique worlds

In one Savage Worlds game I played in, players got "world bennies," which allowed us to set events in motion. As an example, the one I think that was given to me, let's say you're chasing someone down the up escalator, crowded with people. You make your roll to keep from falling down, and you mess it up. You use a normal benny to reroll. This time you get it right, but te perp is still ahead, he turns the corner. You spend a story benny: The janitor is mopping up a giant spill. Now the guy has to make his roll to keep from slipping and falling. He fails and you've caught him.

I've also started on some SW one shots but never gotten enough people around a table at the appropriate time.
- The true meaning of Thanksgiving: everyone plays as either a Puritan or an Indian with secret powers and together they fight off an alien invasion.
- The true meaning of Christmas: A reality show in which contestants fight to the death to become the new Santa Claus. SW includes vehicle rules that would make Reindeer Sleigh Death Races super simple.
I've also considered running a Cowboy Bebop setting, and I know there's a giant Iron Kingdoms fan community that's converted that setting. There's a setting book "Low Life" where you play as things living in the sewer. One option is a sentient twinkie.

If you have a DM who relishes story flexibility, then Savage Worlds is definitely your system. If you want complex and engaging tabletop combat rules, then 4E for sure.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-24, 10:46 PM
The only one of the systems mentioned that i have tried is 4e. I enjoy it and and all but there are about i think 12 books that can be used for character creation (if you want access to all races and classes available and all powers available to the classes), although all the rules required for playing are in PHB1.

Jallorn
2010-08-24, 10:50 PM
Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

I won't suggest GURPS then. In all seriousness, I've yet to find a system that doesn't have lots of "stuff" and/or balance issues. Though if you avoid magic, the D20 system is pretty balanced for the most part.

Ozreth
2010-08-24, 10:54 PM
The more and more I visit forums, I can't help but feel that people burn themsevles out on great systems by reading far too much into the rules and crunch side of it, and trying to build the most mathematically sound character possible.

It's sad. My group will jsut throw together some fun characters out of the 3.5 PHB1 and be on our way, using the RAW and never really noticing if one character is "better than the other" because there is nothing wrong with that, its a group game, you should feel lucky to have a strong character on your team : )

Anyways, as somebody said earlier, 4e and PF are still d&d, 4e being the more secluded option.

How about going an entirely different route and trying something like Legend of the Five Rings?

RebelRogue
2010-08-24, 11:00 PM
Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)
If you'd still like to play a fantasy game, it sounds like D&D 4e might be a good match for you. It essentially cleans up exactly these things and makes all the class choices worthwhile. And it's still D&D (despite what anyone might tell you), so all the basic concepts should be familiar. YMMV, though; it's not for everybody.

If you want to stray from the fantasy genre, Savage Worlds is a great, fast and fun system for just about anything (gleaned from my somewhat limited experience with it). It seems to work especially well for unique, stand-alone ideas/adventures.

Knaight
2010-08-24, 11:01 PM
If you need something light, Fudge is always an option, however I would go with Savage Worlds for a while. Once Blood Sweat and Steel hits print (it is done except for the magic system, play testing continues, and some rewording and art), get it instead. Its aimed at Sword and Sorcery instead of High Fantasy, and is one of the best games I've played in years. And I don't just say that because I've had a hand in the development.

Mando Knight
2010-08-24, 11:17 PM
Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.
4e both has this problem and doesn't have it. Most players will still want the splatbooks for their characters: Divine Power for clerics and paladins, Martial Power for Rogues and Fighters, Arcane Power for Wizards and Bards, and so forth, but they usually won't be looking to cherry pick one thing out of each book in print. To simplify the issue more, WotC introduced their toolsets, the Character Builder and the Compendium, which lets a player sift through their options with just a laptop rather than leafing through five books to create an intricate web of references.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)
So long as you know what your class is supposed to be doing (crowd control, walling off the big brutish guy from hitting your pals, putting band-aids on everyone, etc.) 4e is pretty balanced. The difference between fully twinked out characters and "for fun" characters is still there, but you won't feel the burn just because you brought a Monk or Runepriest to the table rather than a Ranger or Cleric.

TaintedLight
2010-08-24, 11:20 PM
I've recently fallen in love with the over-the-top awesomeness that is Exalted. No level mechanic and you can have a finished character sheet in five minutes.

Crow
2010-08-24, 11:21 PM
The more and more I visit forums, I can't help but feel that people burn themsevles out on great systems by reading far too much into the rules and crunch side of it, and trying to build the most mathematically sound character possible.

I agree, dude.

Balain
2010-08-24, 11:30 PM
Well if you want to stick with D&D I would say go with 4e.

I do know about getting burned out so we will switch systems now and then. I would look at coda I think it is. They made a Lord of The Rings game based on it.

Or you could go with an old system Runequest or Rolemaster or MERP.

Ars Magicka could work well. Pendragon perhaps.

When we get really burned out we will switch from fantasy to something different all together like Superheroes or spies or Vampire or call of cthulhu.

I haven't played it yet but heard good things about riddle of steel.

BobVosh
2010-08-25, 12:57 AM
I've recently fallen in love with the over-the-top awesomeness that is Exalted. No level mechanic and you can have a finished character sheet in five minutes.

O.o
Woah, how often do you make characters? I didn't even make throwaway NPCs that fast in exalted.

Exalted is fun, however it too is splat book heavy. Even worse for the DMs.

I would recommend a peek at deadlands. Not the D20 one, but whatever the other one is called. Using savage worlds rules is usually a bonus. Fun, unique characters that work reasonably well for balance. The big bad huckster of many spells? Balanced when he must fight the reaper for his soul when he got caught cheating. Avoiding spells is best for him, if possible.

Sounds like you still want fantasy, so a lot of other games I liked won't be readily available. Try GURPS, D&D setting + great mechanics, from what I heard. I never actually got a chance with that one.

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-25, 01:09 AM
vampire the dark ages,all flesh must be eaten (preferably the fantasy suppliment), 2e

all fun classics

Kylarra
2010-08-25, 01:14 AM
I like Star Wars Saga Edition. Sure everyone wants to be a jedi, but there's enough tricks to go around that the other classes aren't bad choices either.

BobVosh
2010-08-25, 01:33 AM
I like Star Wars Saga Edition. Sure everyone wants to be a jedi, but there's enough tricks to go around that the other classes aren't bad choices either.

All about adept or soldiers with gernades :D

Kiren
2010-08-25, 01:52 AM
I hear great things about gurps, though if you want to get into sci-fi you will need 1 source book to make it work. (Normal book handles it but I hear it is a bit lacking resource wise.) The main book on its own is still great for fantasy settings I hear. Rules are mostly common sense I hear, with optional rules that make the game more realistic while be easy to remember. Its classless with characters created by a point based system.

These are things I heard about gurps. Never tried myself, but I suggest looking it up.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-25, 02:27 AM
Not going to go into why, exactly, since I don't want this to be an argument thread about what is or is not wrong with 3.5.
Sure, but the question why your group is tired of 3E has a big impact on what game we'll suggest for them.

...or not, we can all simply point out our favorite game anyway :smalltongue:


In my experience, usually when a group is tired of some game, they want a genre shift, not a rules shift. So let me suggest the following genres,

Horror. Call of Chthulhu is a great choice; Wraith: the Oblivion is also solid if your group can handle that.
Modern-day supernatural dystopia. Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage are all great games that everybody should check out at least once.
Parody. With an experienced group, you can't go wrong with a few sessions of Paranoia.
Weird genre mix-ups. If you can find it, check out TORG; it is better than it sounds.

Gahrer
2010-08-25, 04:08 AM
I hear great things about gurps, though if you want to get into sci-fi you will need 1 source book to make it work. (Normal book handles it but I hear it is a bit lacking resource wise.) The main book on its own is still great for fantasy settings I hear. Rules are mostly common sense I hear, with optional rules that make the game more realistic while be easy to remember. Its classless with characters created by a point based system.


QFT
I'm starting a GURPS campaign soon after DM:ing a long 3.5 one. The normal 2 books, "players handbook" and "DM guide", works just fine for fantasy but you might need one more for sci-fi.

potatocubed
2010-08-25, 04:26 AM
If you're burned out on 'stuff' and imbalance...

Pathfinder has fewer options for character gen and is consequently much more manageable. I would personally choose PF over 3.5 just because of this. That said, it's still got all the combat options and it still gets really screwy with the power balance at high levels because it's basically '3.5 + houserules'.

4e has more 'stuff' than Pathfinder but less than 3.5. Balance is a lot better, at the cost of a certain amount of verisimilitude. 4e handles combat really well, and everything else not so well. The new Dark Sun stuff is pretty good.

I haven't played Savage Worlds, but from reading the book I wasn't very impressed. I'd recommend FATE or Fudge instead. I have played Gurps, briefly, and I didn't like it at all.

Alternatively, one of the old-school retro-clones (S&W, OSRIC, C&C) might be your cup of tea - there's far less stuff to worry about, that's for sure. I've only played a little high-level AD&D, so I can't comment on the balance.

The Rose Dragon
2010-08-25, 04:27 AM
If you want to play D&D without playing D&D, I suggest you try All Flesh Must Be Eaten with the Dungeons & Zombies supplement. And then throw out the zombies. It uses the fantastic Unisystem, which can be found in Witchcraft (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1) for free. Plus, Unisystem is infinitely more flexible than D&D couldn't even hope to be.

Really, though, we don't know what you want from a new game other than "not D&D". That would help us help you help yourselves.

Alejandro
2010-08-25, 09:53 AM
We don't really need or want to play a totally different genre. Our group has multiple running games. One of us GMs D&D. I GM D6 Star Wars. Another GMs a Mage game from WOD. And so on.

In this case, the D&D 3.5 game is coming to an end, and we want to start a new D&D game, but not 3.5.

Dizlag
2010-08-25, 10:11 AM
I recommend Savage Worlds for any genre of gaming. It has a great fantasy setting called Evernight and a steampunk setting called Slipstream (I think this is the one where you're like sky-pirates ala Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow feel.

Savage Worlds has a "Fantasy Companion" book which has your D&D-like races and spells. As the Game Master, Savage Worlds has very little prep-time ... just have a rough outline of an adventure and go. Want a more in depth campaing? Then use their "plot points" structure for it in that the adventurers have certain plot points to complete the campaign. Throw some side adventures in there to get them some XP and ranks, then steer them back to the main campaign arc.

We've been enjoying The Day After Ragnarok campaign setting ... an alternative WWII era where the Nazi's raised the Midgard Serpent, the Americans nuked it, and the whole world has been tossed upside down. :smallsmile:

Again, Savage Worlds Explorer's Guide (core rules) is good for any genre of roleplaying and at $10 for the main book ... you can't go wrong. Most of the campaign settings are about $20 with The Savage World of Solomon Kane a good $30 or so ... a beautiful book and looks like a ton of fun!

If you have any questions about Savage Worlds let me know!

Oh, one more thing ... I totally agree with Mark Hall about Castles and Crusades. It's a great system bringing old skewl D&D back using a d20 rules light system. A bit more reform and I really like it as well.

Good luck,

Dizlag

EDIT: Forgot to add my thoughts on C&C.

Pronounceable
2010-08-25, 10:19 AM
Go ADnD then. It's DnDer than 3E, that's for sure. Or maybe stuff like Castles and Crusades or Hackmaster that was made to emulate old school RPGing could work (but I haven't seen those).

Tyndmyr
2010-08-25, 10:31 AM
We want to play D&D, without the problems I mentioned above.

E6 is what you want, then.

Alejandro
2010-08-25, 10:32 AM
A player in my group pointed out one I missed, another reason we don't want to use 3.5 again:

Combat takes too long. Looking up spells in a spread of books, having to keep extra character sheets or dig through books whenever a druid or other caster shapeshifts, figuring out how to mesh X obscure thing with Y obscure thing, etc. We can't, especially at high level play (I'm 18th level) get through a combat encounter without taking hours, sometimes.

I guess it could be our own fault (playstyle, number of PCs present, etc) but I have certainly noticed it. As a melee based character, my turn usually takes 2 minutes, tops, but the casters take far longer.

Dizlag
2010-08-25, 10:34 AM
Hackmaster Basic is pretty fun. You use building points to buy your class, skills, talents (like feats), and weapon proficiency. Everyone is involved during combat at the same time as it has a "count up" round-less initiative system. You roll you initiative, attack, add your weapon speed and wait that many counts to attack again. You can move around on every count and you make opposed rolls for resolving combat. Attacker rolls his attack and the defender rolls his defense. It's pretty kewl.

There is also the older more campy Hackmaster 4th edition ... (animated Gazebos, sidewinder fireballs) where they had a license from TSR/WoTC to make a funny version of D&D. They were told to make it campy and ridiculous, but the gaming system is pretty solid.

Dizlag

dsmiles
2010-08-25, 10:35 AM
Play Munchkin?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-25, 10:37 AM
Number of PCs can be a huge factor. I've DMed 3.x since it came out, and I no longer allow parties to grow beyond six PCs. That's already a challenge, and more slows it down considerably.

High level play definitely adds complexity. Takes longer to build the opponents and encounters, too.

E6 mostly solves the high level issues, due to the level 6 cap. It also tends to result in less caster complexity, due to the greatly decreased spell availability. However, it doesn't solve the "many books" issue all by itself, as most books still have some stuff for low level play. You can solve that by using, say, core + completes only, if you prefer.

Alternatively, AD&D works.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-25, 10:39 AM
Combat takes too long.

Yeah, it's been said already, both E6 and 1E/2E play a lot faster than the later editions. Both 3E and 4E tend to be very slow in terms of combat.

hamlet
2010-08-25, 10:43 AM
We want to play D&D, without the problems I mentioned above.

Then I have a few suggestions:

1) AD&D2e(without the Complete Books and splat books)/OSRIC: AD&D 2e is, IMO, the best iteration of the AD&D rules system. It's light (or at least lighter than 3.x and 4.x) and basic enough that you can do to it pretty much anything you want without having to worry about getting into the nitty gritty little rules. It's morphable. Guidlines instead of rules and all that. OSRIC is, essentially, a free copy of the AD&D rules for all intents and purposes. Lots of new stuff coming out for it, great fun.

2) Rules Cyclopedia(BECMI D&D)/Labyrinth Lord: Rules Cyclopedia, while a little thick and daunting, is a very excellent game. You just need to go through and pare back some of the rules that you dont' want to utilize, otherwise it becomes a little Kludgy. Labyrinth Lord is a free (at least I think you can still get a free copy online) clone of BECMI D&D and has lots of new stuff coming out all the time. Highly recommended, but not everybody's cup of tea.

3) Castles and Crusades: AD&D built onto a kit bashed D20 platform. Sort of. Very mixed old school and new school mentality about it, and very nice and simple. Lots of fun stuff out there for it, though it's a lot slimmer than it's forebears.

Skycroft
2010-08-25, 10:45 AM
Fantasycraft? My gaming group likes it a lot, and I find it mostly solves the balance issue (unlike 4E, it solves Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards by making everyone quadratic instead of everyone linear).

Its all in one book, as well. Though you do still have to know the rules for grappling et al, so it may still be a bit crunchy for you.

Apart from that: Savage Worlds is quick and easy, and I do like Fate/Fudge.

Umael
2010-08-25, 10:48 AM
*chuckle*

Well, if you don't want combat to last long, you could try to adapt Legend of the Five Rings to your play style...

Sipex
2010-08-25, 11:39 AM
A player in my group pointed out one I missed, another reason we don't want to use 3.5 again:

Combat takes too long. Looking up spells in a spread of books, having to keep extra character sheets or dig through books whenever a druid or other caster shapeshifts, figuring out how to mesh X obscure thing with Y obscure thing, etc. We can't, especially at high level play (I'm 18th level) get through a combat encounter without taking hours, sometimes.

I guess it could be our own fault (playstyle, number of PCs present, etc) but I have certainly noticed it. As a melee based character, my turn usually takes 2 minutes, tops, but the casters take far longer.

I don't know what system you're going to choose but I will recommend something from 4e to use in any of your games which will help this.

Power cards. D&D 4e sells them either blank or pre-filled if you go that route but you can easily adapt the concept to whatever game you play (assuming the spell description/stats aren't absurdly complex and long). You then have a small stack of cards which make castings easier to track and let you have all the information you need in one place.

Lord Vampyre
2010-08-25, 12:01 PM
I started playing 4E, the problem is that it is still D&D. It still requires mounds of books, tons of gear as your character levels up, but the balance issue has mostly been fixed. Every class has a role, and as long as you stick with your role your fine.

That happens to be my other problem with the game. You really do need to stick to your role in order to be effective, it really took the imagination away from the game for me. Now, not everyone has this problem, but I found myself simply pushing the character around on the map and using whatever ability he had available.

The other system I started playing is GURPS 4E. The problem, it happens to be a lot of work for the GM in the beginning. It has all the versatility that any GM could ever ask for, except he has to do all the work in defining what is available. Now GURPS does have quite a few resources that help with setting up your campaign, but that happens to be more books that you end up needing. Case in point: To run a fairly robust fantasy campaign you at least need GURPS Magic. You can get away without having GURPS Fantasy, if you already have an idea of the type of setting your planning on. Also, if you want help with running a D&D style game, you can get the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy pdf books from e23.

Now, the fantasy campaign I would truly recommend is the Warhammer Fantasy RPG. I haven't played the new version yet, but if they did as well with it as the 1st and 2nd editions had been done, it should be great. Every time I've had a chance to play in a Warhammer FRPG, I've had a blast.

Loren
2010-08-25, 12:03 PM
Along similar lines I like to write out all my "spells" (special combat moves, animals etc) in a small note book so that I can flip through them quickly. The DM just needs to trust that I've copied out the facts and relivant rules correctly. It works for all systems.

My 2 cents, I like Pathfinder for the variabilty of spells availible. It's basically 3.x, but special combat moves (tripping grappling) have been cleared up. It gives alot of nice stuff to the meelees, but it doesn't remove all of the broken stuff from casting. It also has some nice features
1 you can get most of the material free on-line.
2 much of your 3.x material can be translated into it with a little work and GM approval.

A note about casting and books. Any game that gives casters a wide range of options is going to slow down because there are more rules invovled. Really, the only way to avoid this is to limit what casters can do. Which leads to 4E...

In 4E casters can't do as many neat tricks as 3.x and the rules for what they can do in combat are conviently written on their power cards. Because all the players have powers to choose from even at low levels combat is a bit slower than 3.x at low levels, but because all the players have powers of roughly equal magnitude they all get roughly an equal part of the spot light. Because the number of powers availible to a player stays much more limited than 3.x and they tend not to be as convoluted I expect that 4E games play faster at higher levels (although I have no experience to base this claim on).

edit
As some others have noted, the Character builder allows players access to all the printed material to date in a very convient format and costs pocket change (and with 5 updates a month a whole group can easily be covered with a single subscription). Similarly, the DM gets access to a wide range of materials through the tool kit. Really, all that is needed is a PHB and DMG (or the Essentials equivalent when they come out?) and a subscription to DDI.

I've never played the Warhammer RPG, but I've heard good things. Fantasy Flight Games puts out quality products. For about $100 you should have all the materials you need to play.

derfenrirwolv
2010-08-25, 12:03 PM
Pathfinder will eliminate the druids and wizards needing multiple characters sheets for alternate forms. That was one of the things they did a good job fixing : the various polymorph spells grant size bonuses and a set of abilities from the form rather than overwriting your stats.

kyoryu
2010-08-25, 12:13 PM
I think either AD&D (2nd ed) or 4e will do ya fine (sorry, reading too much Dark Tower). Alternately, one of the retro-clones. Honestly, I find 3.x to be the D&D iteration that *most* requires extensive character-building and rules-lawyering.

For a quick 'breather', you can't go wrong with Paranoia.

GURPS is interesting. It's a good system, but has its issues. It doesn't really lend itself well to a cinematic feel (and yes, I know the cinematic rules - I've done GURPS since '86 or so, and used to exclusively run it).

hamlet
2010-08-25, 12:14 PM
Now, the fantasy campaign I would truly recommend is the Warhammer Fantasy RPG. I haven't played the new version yet, but if they did as well with it as the 1st and 2nd editions had been done, it should be great. Every time I've had a chance to play in a Warhammer FRPG, I've had a blast.

Hmmm, yes, these are good.

The only thing I'd caution is to not take them as seriously as they are written. Warhammer is at least 50% dark humor and people tend to forget that.

Still, they also tend to break people's happy meters when you figure out that you aren't going to reach high exalted power and that even a highly advanced and experienced character is still going to screw up nearly as often as a starting character, and more spectacularly. The only difference, really, is the amount of power you have in the well. The character still functions very effectively as a choke point of that power.

Teln
2010-08-25, 01:38 PM
O.o
Woah, how often do you make characters? I didn't even make throwaway NPCs that fast in exalted.

Exalted is fun, however it too is splat book heavy. Even worse for the DMs.


Erm, what do you mean by that? If you're playing a Solar game, the only rulebook you need is core.


5 minutes for a starting PC? More like five hours.

The Rose Dragon
2010-08-25, 01:48 PM
Erm, what do you mean by that? If you're playing a Solar game, the only rulebook you need is core.

Except if you're playing a martial artist. Or a sorcerer. Or a necromancer. Or if you want any variation in your artifacts and hearthstones.

Teln
2010-08-25, 01:53 PM
Except if you're playing a martial artist. Or a sorcerer. Or a necromancer. Or if you want any variation in your artifacts and hearthstones.

For the system, there's the core rulebook. For everything else, there's homebrew. :smalltongue:

BobSutan
2010-08-25, 03:24 PM
So.. those of you who have experience going from 3.5 to ?, could you share some advice or experiences? We are currently examining 4E, Pathfinder, and Savage Worlds, but have only just started, so there are no strong preconceptions.

P.S. The group consists mostly of experienced, long term gamers.

My old group went from 3.5 to 4E and it was okay, but more restricted. We missed the flexibility and sheer options that 3.5 presented. When that group fizzled and reformed we decided to give E6 a try. We're about to hit 6th level tonight or this weekend, and from there we'll really see what it's made of. From what I read it sounds exactly like what we've been looking for. A grittier more realistic version of D&D that focuses on epic adventures and storytelling instead of becoming fantasy style superheroes.

dsmiles
2010-08-25, 03:30 PM
The group consists mostly of experienced, long term gamers.

The group is mostly experienced? Maybe Rolemaster/H.A.R.P. is for you. Not a lot of books, and a lot can be done on the fly. Character creation can take a while, due to there being upwards of a gajillion skills and forty billion permutations of the (I think) 10 base classes. But I went from 1e to 2e to oWoD and Palladium to 3.0 to 3.5 to Rolemaster to 4e, and can say that I enjoyed my time playing Rolemaster more than any other system.

Dragosai
2010-08-25, 03:40 PM
Well, I didn't want to elaborate for the reason given before, but if it will help, here are the problems the group has with 3.5:

- Too much "stuff." Grapple. Special combat actions. Books and books of feats and spells and prestige classes. Some of the players like lots of material (I do) but others hate it and feel they shouldn't have to read and work with every book out there just to have a strong PC. Some of the players despise having to look up (or wait while someone looks up) things scattered over so many books.

- Balance issues. Once we got to higher levels of play, it became clear that it was mostly pointless to play anything other than wizard, cleric, or druid. Half the group stopped having much in the way of fun when those with those 3 classes dominated all encounters. (Full disclosure, I'm one of those that stopped having much fun.)

You will get a lot of feed back on this issue and I would be very suprised if this did not turn into yet another edition flame war.

However ALL of the reasons you give above are solved with 4E. All of the resons you list are all of the reasons I play 4E and will never go back to 3.5.
Yeah you can see where my vote is placed, but really reading the 4E PHB on the day it came out was like an answer to all the wasted time spent playing 3.5 looking up rules, or trying to not make a broken character or to avoid making an under powered character, or spent flipping through books looking for rules that should be all in one place, having to open a book when anyone cast certain spells because the discription/effect was so long etc.

As for Savage worlds, I have not tried it so I will not say anything about it.

Pathfinder is just 3.75 and the things they "changed" just make me laugh i.e. they made casters MORE powerful and that is just so awesomely funny. Also it's close enough to 3.5 that the changes just make you learn new rules for small parts of the system that you had already learned the rules for. I would highly recommend Pathfinder/3.75 if you and your group were just looking for more 3.5 and wanting to take on the challenge of learning some new rules, if not pass on it.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-25, 04:57 PM
I reiterate 4e... especially since you have issues with going through all the books. If you use character builder then you will have all the selections on there to chose from and when you print off your char sheet it will print off power cards for all the powers that go with your char.

And thus you won't have to keep all the books around you whist you're playing.

Kingboy
2010-08-26, 03:49 PM
Now, the fantasy campaign I would truly recommend is the Warhammer Fantasy RPG. I haven't played the new version yet, but if they did as well with it as the 1st and 2nd editions had been done, it should be great. Every time I've had a chance to play in a Warhammer FRPG, I've had a blast.

One more for some WHFRP love. I've played in a number of games in this system, using both the old GW printed book and the newer reprints, and every one has had some of my most memorable gaming stories come from it. And every one of those games has been run from nothing more than the core book.

While it is true that it helps if you are a bit of a fan of the Warhammer setting, it's easy enough to use the rules for any sort of generic fantasy world—or you may find yourself becoming a fan of the world because of playing. :)

Subotei
2010-08-26, 05:21 PM
CoC is the perfect antidote to too much 3.5 - go from a system where you know everything, to a system where you know you cant beat anything - truely different.

BobSutan
2010-08-26, 06:44 PM
Hit 6th last night in E6 and I can already see the genious in the simplicity. Highly recommended. If scrounging for all the stuff players need on their turn is the problem, hold them accountable and make them do the legwork ahead of time and prep their character properly. Have the alternate forms written down. If they summon mobs, make them have the info on hand so they don't slow down the combat finding the right book and then finding the mob then want to use.

Prevention vs cure is the OP's problem, not the system itself.

Kaervaslol
2010-08-26, 06:48 PM
Hackmaster Basic is pretty fun. You use building points to buy your class, skills, talents (like feats), and weapon proficiency. Everyone is involved during combat at the same time as it has a "count up" round-less initiative system. You roll you initiative, attack, add your weapon speed and wait that many counts to attack again. You can move around on every count and you make opposed rolls for resolving combat. Attacker rolls his attack and the defender rolls his defense. It's pretty kewl.

There is also the older more campy Hackmaster 4th edition ... (animated Gazebos, sidewinder fireballs) where they had a license from TSR/WoTC to make a funny version of D&D. They were told to make it campy and ridiculous, but the gaming system is pretty solid.

Dizlag

This. Hackmaster is great. A bit crunchy, but unified crunchyness. And the best of all is the combat. Fun, lethal and pretty fast.

arrowhen
2010-08-26, 08:32 PM
There was a thread over on Story Games a while back that you might find interesting. It had a number of suggestions that I haven't seen here yet...

Want to have some good D&D-like fun, but without D&D: Advice?! (http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=12627)