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Balor01
2010-08-25, 05:14 AM
I was thinking the other day on the percentages of lvl 20 characters/dragons/liches and such in a generic D&D world.

So, the strongest thing around is lvl 20 batman. But trying a very short lvl 20 caster-only campaign, it turned out that there is really little for such strong characters to do on a material plane. Nothing in MM is interesting enough of a challenge and spell development or conquering the world becomes real boring real fast.
The only really interesting place for such batmans is imho Sigil, City of gates. The immense concentrations of magic, epic-spellcastnig dracolichs and plane travelers are IMHO just the place for such batmans.

So, according to this theory, there really should not be any cca lvl 15+ batmans in a generic D&D world. Either they linger in their magnificent mansions or stick around in Sigil. Mayebe there are really few with strange agendas, travelling the world and being bored to death.

It is a bit different story for clerics and druids, since the latter must uphold divine rule/rule of nature and actually have an interest in staying on material plane.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-08-25, 06:04 AM
to become level 20 requires decades of study normally. adventures bypass this somehow by killing monsters. an NPC would be driven to do one thing and only achieve the level required to do it and not push to go further as they are done. they then live normal happy unboring lives at level 10-15 with their family/ loved ones

Oslecamo
2010-08-25, 06:11 AM
So, according to this theory, there really should not be any cca lvl 15+ batmans in a generic D&D world. Either they linger in their magnificent mansions or stick around in Sigil. Mayebe there are really few with strange agendas, travelling the world and being bored to death.


That's why they started pokemon monster duels! Don't tell me you never noticed half the MMs monsters are "A bored wizard did it"?:smallbiggrin:

So once wizards reach SUPREME ARCANE POWER they use it to create new monsters and pit them against their rivals/friends! When they got bored of a monster they release it in the wilderness and it provides a random ecounter for lower level adventurers!:smalltongue:

DragonOfUndeath
2010-08-25, 06:59 AM
tarrasque Vs Metallic dragon
Black Mage Vs Red Mage

Balor01
2010-08-25, 07:14 AM
So once wizards reach SUPREME ARCANE POWER they use it to create new monsters and pit them against their rivals/friends

Awsome. A classic sport in Sigil :smallbiggrin:

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-08-25, 11:10 AM
The one problem I see with the OP's origional statement is that just because something isn't fun to roleplay or isn't mechanically challenging to your wargamer/strategist side doesn't mean that your character sees no value in it.

Almost anything pleasurable is boring to rp eating gourmet food, listening to music, sitting in your oppulently furnished study reading a good book, sex, watching a play, contemplating life, acheiving inner peice, running, swimming etc. All these things and more are glossed over and soon lose all appeal to a player except the satisfactioin of playing in character.

Also a wizard may actually care about some of the non-casters of the world and want to change or protect the world's political landscape. He may even be a good person/sadist and want to help/hurt people even if it isn't challenging.

In short if your twentieth level wizard had nothing to do it's your fault for giving him no motivations.

dsmiles
2010-08-25, 11:14 AM
tarrasque Vs Metallic dragon
Blue Wizard Vs Red Wizard

Don't you mean "Black Mage vs. Red Mage?"

Erom
2010-08-25, 11:26 AM
You also note that spell research becomes boring real fast - for a player maybe, but the character who has spent his life studying the arcane might find it fascinating. And with a real potential to change the world, for the better or worse.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-25, 11:27 AM
Every D&D world ever is post-apocalyptic. Why else would the world have so many dungeons filled with treasure, abandoned, with monsters living there?

Thus, clearly too many bored wizards with too much power leads to apocalypse, and a reboot of civilization.

Zaydos
2010-08-25, 11:35 AM
Every D&D world ever is post-apocalyptic. Why else would the world have so many dungeons filled with treasure, abandoned, with monsters living there?

Thus, clearly too many bored wizards with too much power leads to apocalypse, and a reboot of civilization.

I'd contest this except that while in my biggest game setting wizards haven't caused any of the apocalypses, yet, they're schedule to cause the next one.

That and the wizard kingdom fell when the gods kicked out its emperor because his abuse of magic was going to cause reality to unwind. So you're probably right, bored wizards = apocalypse.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-25, 11:47 AM
You don't even have to go to Sigil; Faerun is more than capable of offering a good challenge to a group of powerfull wizards.

I don't know if there're a lot of books related to the Forgotten Realms in 3.5, but I read all that was made for 2nd edition (Marco Volo's guides, Elminster's Ecologies, and so on... ), and it can be truly epic. No need of deities and ubber demons, just throw in some Zentharim Black Network actions, some Cult of the Dragon fun parties (perhaps some "Return of Sammaster"?)... And I cite only the most famous opponent. In the "Marco Volo's guide to Sword Coast", there're amazing things for high powered adventurers (never heard of "The Gauntlet"? Oh, it's just a reunion of supper budies about being liches and loving it).

Ravens_cry
2010-08-25, 12:17 PM
You also note that spell research becomes boring real fast - for a player maybe, but the character who has spent his life studying the arcane might find it fascinating. And with a real potential to change the world, for the better or worse.
I always loved the chance to do spell research, it was, as you said, a chance "to change the world."
On the ecology, it is ridiculously top heavy. What's feeding all these predators?

Vantharion
2010-08-25, 01:39 PM
I always loved the chance to do spell research, it was, as you said, a chance "to change the world."
On the ecology, it is ridiculously top heavy. What's feeding all these predators?

Tribbles?

Ecology is smeh...
I always subscribe to the fact that MM doesn't have a billion different creatures is because all the smaller creatures aren't worth mention and easily stat-able if needed.

Sometimes I enjoy boring my players with just HOW MANY commoners and UNINTERESTING things there are so they appreciate 'Wait, we stumbled onto an ancient rite-ground of so-and-so? Its a nice change of pace from where everything is wildly interesting... which makes nothing wildly interesting

Yahzi
2010-08-25, 02:39 PM
I was thinking the other day on the percentages of lvl 20 characters/dragons/liches and such in a generic D&D world..
That's actually an important question, because it underlies everything else. It's odd to have your party of 12th level saving the world if there are 20th level wizards out there.

I solved this problem by a) changing the XP table to make high-level characters super-rare, and b) making XP a finite (and tangible) resource. Of these two changes, the latter is the most important.

Oslecamo
2010-08-25, 02:59 PM
That's actually an important question, because it underlies everything else. It's odd to have your party of 12th level saving the world if there are 20th level wizards out there.


For the 12th level players it's saving the world.

For the 20th level wizard is saving one of countless mudballs on the multiverse while he has his private paradise plane. Of course the 20th level wizard doesn't care enough to save it himself!:smalltongue:

Zaydos
2010-08-25, 03:14 PM
That's actually an important question, because it underlies everything else. It's odd to have your party of 12th level saving the world if there are 20th level wizards out there.

I solved this problem by a) changing the XP table to make high-level characters super-rare, and b) making XP a finite (and tangible) resource. Of these two changes, the latter is the most important.

In my game I got around it by saying that this was the start of the Age of Heroes so the fact that they were in their mid twenties and 12th level made them something the world hadn't seen in thousands of years. There were 20th level wizards, but these guys were venerable and unoptimized (meaning not nearly well enough protected to go adventuring with their low hp); that and the PCs' bosses, who were too valuable to leave the well protected place in case the illithids (campaign villains) discover their location and teleport/plane shift in a hit squad against them (that and last time one of the archmages went out on a mission they died killing an Elder Brain). Also the PCs started at 12th level doing basic field work for the Order they belonged to, only by complete accident did they end up saving the world twice, after which point they were deemed to have the most experience with combating the BBEG.

By the end of the game there were some other high level NPCs that were young and actively adventuring, but just like the PCs they were prodigies and had just reached these high levels by... well saving the world from other threats (the campaign somehow took place in ~1.5% of the area covered by the maps [I ended with 6]).