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Tequila Sunrise
2010-08-25, 08:51 AM
I could have sworn there's a class variant somewhere that grants pounce, but I can't find it.

Help is appreciated!

Greenish
2010-08-25, 08:53 AM
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1, Complete Champion.

[Edit]: Person_Man has a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

Chess435
2010-08-25, 09:00 AM
Also, the Catfolk race from Races of the Wild has it too.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 09:01 AM
Also, the Catfolk race from Races of the Wild has it too.They have a racial feat to gain a limited form of pounce (it was only on the first round of combat or something).

Ruinix
2010-08-25, 09:18 AM
They have a racial feat to gain a limited form of pounce (it was only on the first round of combat or something).

it 's need a flat-footed target at end of the charge for the pounce count. (RotW p148)

liquid150
2010-08-25, 09:19 AM
IIRC there is a power somewhere called Psionic Pounce that lets a PsyWar pull it off, too, but I'm not exactly familiar with most psionics.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 09:27 AM
IIRC there is a power somewhere called Psionic Pounce that lets a PsyWar pull it off, too, but I'm not exactly familiar with most psionics.Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm). The link I gave in the first reply has catfolk, psi-charge and all that jazz.

Eldariel
2010-08-25, 09:35 AM
Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm). The link I gave in the first reply has catfolk, psi-charge and all that jazz.

Lion's Charge is also a Ranger-place.

Asheram
2010-08-25, 10:24 AM
There's also the Claws of the Leopard weapon from Complete Adventurer.

Wings of Peace
2010-08-25, 12:26 PM
Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm). The link I gave in the first reply has catfolk, psi-charge and all that jazz.

There's a secret a lot of people do not realize about that power. Look at the duration.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 12:28 PM
There's a secret a lot of people do not realize about that power. Look at the duration.Which is why you augment it to the max before manifesting it once, then psy-reform swap it with something useful.

Mongoose87
2010-08-25, 12:38 PM
There's a secret a lot of people do not realize about that power. Look at the duration.

*Head explodes*

Wings of Peace
2010-08-25, 12:54 PM
*Head explodes*

Now make the realization that a psionic tattoo containing a second level power only costs 300gp and can be used by any class. Welcome to character optimization. :smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2010-08-25, 12:54 PM
Now make the realization that a psionic tattoo containing a second level power only costs 300gp and can be used by any class. Welcome to character optimization. :smallsmile:

I think I love you.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-25, 01:12 PM
Which is why you augment it to the max before manifesting it once, then psy-reform swap it with something useful.
RAW, I don't think the Augmentation would stick, because the extra damage from the Augmentation specifies that it only functions in the "current round" - so you'd get the damage when you first manifest it, and keep Pounce forever.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 01:28 PM
RAW, I don't think the Augmentation would stick, because the extra damage from the Augmentation specifies that it only functions in the "current round" - so you'd get the damage when you first manifest it, and keep Pounce forever.Oh, right-o. Should've read it more closely.

true_shinken
2010-08-25, 02:07 PM
Now make the realization that a psionic tattoo containing a second level power only costs 300gp and can be used by any class. Welcome to character optimization munchkining. :smallsmile:

Fixed that for you. Abusing an oversight in a power is not optimizing. It's like saying Vigilantes get 30 level 3 spells, even though it is an obvious printing error.

Thiyr
2010-08-25, 02:26 PM
Except that this isn't a printing error, and lacks any evidence to such. Unlike the Vigilante, which just has someone missing the tab button when typing (seeing as they otherwise get 1- 3rd level spells, whatever the - means in terms of spells per day), this is them specifically giving the power the instantaneous duration. Poor design, yes, but not munchkining. There's no intentional misreading, misconstruing, or abuse, it's taking the spell's description, and pointing out what it actually means. Using it as written is not abuse, nor is pointing that out to people.

Adumbration
2010-08-25, 02:33 PM
You can also use a variety of swift action teleportation effects to move and full-attack - easiest access is Dimension hop with the feat Hidden talent for 2/day. Another is Travel Devotion from CChampion, which allows you to move as a swift action 1/day for rounds/level. Can be fueled by turning attempts.

true_shinken
2010-08-25, 02:36 PM
Except that this isn't a printing error, and lacks any evidence to such. Unlike the Vigilante, which just has someone missing the tab button when typing (seeing as they otherwise get 1- 3rd level spells, whatever the - means in terms of spells per day), this is them specifically giving the power the instantaneous duration. Poor design, yes, but not munchkining. There's no intentional misreading, misconstruing, or abuse, it's taking the spell's description, and pointing out what it actually means. Using it as written is not abuse, nor is pointing that out to people.

Oh, yeah. They totally intended the effect to be instantaneous and the augment to not be. It's totally not an editing error, right?
Everyone knows pounce is worth 300gp. Saying otherwise is houseruling.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 02:38 PM
Another is Travel Devotion from CChampion, which allows you to move as a swift action 1/day for rounds/level.Travel Devotion lasts for a minute for each activation, regardless of your level.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-08-25, 02:43 PM
Except that this isn't a printing error, and lacks any evidence to such. Unlike the Vigilante, which just has someone missing the tab button when typing (seeing as they otherwise get 1- 3rd level spells, whatever the - means in terms of spells per day), this is them specifically giving the power the instantaneous duration. Poor design, yes, but not munchkining. There's no intentional misreading, misconstruing, or abuse, it's taking the spell's description, and pointing out what it actually means. Using it as written is not abuse, nor is pointing that out to people.

He didn't say "printing error" he said "oversight". The folks at WotC are notorious for such massive screw-ups.

Tael
2010-08-25, 02:46 PM
Oh, yeah. They totally intended the effect to be instantaneous and the augment to not be. It's totally not an editing error, right?
Everyone knows pounce is worth 300gp. Saying otherwise is houseruling.

Well technically it is a houserule, just as letting your barbarian co-operate with the party wizard is, or allowing your monks to be proficient with their own fists.
Houserule != bad.

Adumbration
2010-08-25, 02:50 PM
Travel Devotion lasts for a minute for each activation, regardless of your level.

Ah, my bad. That's actually better at lower levels than I thought.

Thiyr
2010-08-25, 02:52 PM
Oh, yeah. They totally intended the effect to be instantaneous and the augment to not be. It's totally not an editing error, right?
Everyone knows pounce is worth 300gp. Saying otherwise is houseruling.

In this case, yes, going otherwise is a houserule. Not saying that was their intent, not saying that it's the way I'd play with it, but I am saying that in this case, there is nothing to give a reasonable suggestion that they intended it to not be instantaneous. It's not like they put "Instantaneous 1 round/level" and forgot to delete instantaneous. They could just as easily have forgotten to put a note on the duration for if it was augmented (as, while I am not remembering specific spells, I seem to remember that there are some spells which have different effects with different durations). As the argument for error based on the augment is ambiguous, then the two options are either go with it as written, or houserule it. Fixing something that doesn't seem right isn't wrong, but it's not playing the rules as they're written.


As for adding swift action movement to the idea of pouncing, the Swift Leap maneuver from ToB lets you jump and move the distance of the jump as a swift action. The investment into jump is easy enough to make it useful low-level swift action movement.


EDIT:

He didn't say "printing error" he said "oversight". The folks at WotC are notorious for such massive screw-ups.

note the last two words of his post were "printing error". I agree with oversight. It's a stupid way for the spell to work. But using it that way isn't munchkining, it's using a single spell in a way that makes sense and works as per the rules presented. It's overpowered. But it's not munchkining in the sense that I've always understood the word.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-08-25, 02:55 PM
His next post clarified his intent. :smalltongue:

-and it is only "munchy" to the degree that one must exploit a poorly written rule in order to accomplish an unintended effect.

2xMachina
2010-08-25, 03:02 PM
Oh, yeah. They totally intended the effect to be instantaneous and the augment to not be. It's totally not an editing error, right?
Everyone knows pounce is worth 300gp. Saying otherwise is houseruling.

Feats are worth about 3k each. So, yeah, a little cheap, but by the time you care about pouncing (need Bab 6+ to bother), 2.7k isn't that big a diff.

Thiyr
2010-08-25, 03:03 PM
True, but as this argument shows, intent and what's written are different :smallwink:.

If he hadn't clarified his statement with a clarifying addition, then it would've been left at printing error. One might almost call his clarification an errata to what he said in his first post, a nice parallel to what WotC should've done with the spell. But they didn't, and as is it does work, so that's the best evidence we have on what it does. So if we disagree with that decision on WotC's part (which I do), we fix it ourselves.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 03:07 PM
Feats are worth about 3k each. So, yeah, a little cheap, but by the time you care about pouncing (need Bab 6+ to bother), 2.7k isn't that big a diff.Well, Quick Draw is 300 gp.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-25, 03:16 PM
True, but as this argument shows, intent and what's written are different :smallwink:. This very quickly enters into obtuse reasoning just to stick to raw. There are few examples of situations where the raw is just too obviously not meant to be interpreted that way, and they are the type where the answer really is "Raw is being retarded. Don't feel guilty for disobeying it"

RAW is a common ground of discussion, not a sacred text.

RMS Oceanic
2010-08-25, 03:17 PM
Which is why you augment it to the max before manifesting it once, then psy-reform swap it with something useful.

Now, the Augment part makes specific reference to "the current round", so I don't think you could get away with that part.

Thiyr
2010-08-25, 03:28 PM
This very quickly enters into obtuse reasoning just to stick to raw. There are few examples of situations where the raw is just too obviously not meant to be interpreted that way, and they are the type where the answer really is "Raw is being retarded. Don't feel guilty for disobeying it"

RAW is a common ground of discussion, not a sacred text.

Which is why, as the rest of my post was trying to show, I think WotC didn't think that through well. There's a reason I kept using pronouns like "We", or saying outright that I disagree with WotC making it instant. I have not even suggested that RAW isn't something to be messed with.

I have, however, been arguing that this is a case where, regardless of my opinion on the matter, RAW actually does work here, and it isn't even using unexpected or poorly written interactions so much as it's WotC not thinking, so one should not feel guilty (or have others try to make them feel guilty) for using it this way, or pointing out that to others.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-25, 03:39 PM
This very quickly enters into obtuse reasoning just to stick to raw. There are few examples of situations where the raw is just too obviously not meant to be interpreted that way, and they are the type where the answer really is "Raw is being retarded. Don't feel guilty for disobeying it"

RAW is a common ground of discussion, not a sacred text.
Why would anyone ever feel guilty about a houserule? The game is unplayable without them.

I dunno, when people get all annoyed about RAW being stupid and try to prove that it's not, refusing to acknowledge that you just have to houserule it, as if houseruling was a bad thing, that kind of annoys me.

Mongoose87
2010-08-25, 04:58 PM
Ok, so maybe they didn't intend the power to work that way. Is it really so bad?

It could've been that they merely forgot about tattoos and meant for PsiWarriors to be able to get Pounce at the cost of one power known. Unlikely, yes, but unreasonable? Not really. The augment could simply be there, so you have something to do with the power, after.

Everyone says Pounce is what meleers need, anyways,

Wings of Peace
2010-08-25, 10:24 PM
Ok, so maybe they didn't intend the power to work that way. Is it really so bad?

It could've been that they merely forgot about tattoos and meant for PsiWarriors to be able to get Pounce at the cost of one power known. Unlikely, yes, but unreasonable? Not really. The augment could simply be there, so you have something to do with the power, after.

Everyone says Pounce is what meleers need, anyways,

Considering the alternative is a one level dip of Barbarian which also opens the way to Frenzied Berserker I'm inclined to consider 300gp Pounce access little more than mechanically amusing.

Mongoose87
2010-08-25, 10:31 PM
Considering the alternative is a one level dip of Barbarian which also opens the way to Frenzied Berserker I'm inclined to consider 300gp Pounce access little more than mechanically amusing.

It makes the Monk significantly less bad at its move+strike role.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-08-25, 10:33 PM
I find it amusing that pounce is useless until +6 BAB, but the lion barb variant forces it on you at 1st level in exchange for a class ability that actually is useful at 1st.

Go ahead and tell me 3e isn't all about the multiclassing. :smallamused: (Well, non-caster 3e that is.)

Eldariel
2010-08-25, 10:45 PM
I find it amusing that pounce is useless until +6 BAB, but the lion barb variant forces it on you at 1st level in exchange for a class ability that actually is useful at 1st.

Go ahead and tell me 3e isn't all about the multiclassing. :smallamused: (Well, non-caster 3e that is.)

Whirling Frenzy!

Endarire
2010-08-26, 02:19 AM
Remember, your party Wizard can haste you when you have 5 BAB.

RMS Oceanic
2010-08-26, 02:56 AM
Also, Two-Weapon Fighting.