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Mordrigar
2010-08-25, 03:46 PM
I have 3 things about that spell:

First: Genesis is 9th level but on SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) it's under Epic Spell List but titled as Non-Epic. Correct me if i'm wrong: that means you have to be an Epic Caster to cast that spell but spell is not considered as epic.

Second: You choose every factor of your demiplane. That means you can choose its time conditions too. So if you faster time in your demiplane (for example x7 faster than normal) will it take less to cast the spell? Normally spell takes a week to complete (8 hours casting each day) but whle time flows quicker at there, it'll take only 8 -Earth- hours to complete.

And Third: It says you can't create anything alive with that spell. So do you have to collect species and breed them at your own plane? That sounds fun; but what are the conditions of creating a fauna or flora?

Evard
2010-08-25, 03:50 PM
not sure about specifics but you could always just plant your own or use another spell to create plant life... however

I want to run/play in a campaign that the PC's are being payed by a lazy wizard to collect things for his demiplane :D

TaintedLight
2010-08-25, 03:52 PM
I have 3 things about that spell:

First: Genesis is 9th level but on SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) it's under Epic Spell List but titled as Non-Epic. Correct me if i'm wrong: that means you have to be an Epic Caster to cast that spell but spell is not considered as epic.

Second: You choose every factor of your demiplane. That means you can choose its time conditions too. So if you faster time in your demiplane (for example x7 faster than normal) will it take less to cast the spell? Normally spell takes a week to complete (8 hours casting each day) but whle time flows quicker at there, it'll take only 8 -Earth- hours to complete.

And Third: It says you can't create anything alive with that spell. So do you have to collect species and breed them at your own plane? That sounds fun; but what are the conditions of creating a fauna or flora?

1. No, a non-epic caster CAN learn Genesis. As a DM, I would never in a million years allow that to happen, though. It certainly lies well within the strata of epic for the amount of power it has to potentially change the balance of your game universe. See part 2 of my answer for reasons why.

2. You choose every aspect of the plane during the casting. The casting time is unchanged, but once the plane is created you can absolutely cause time to flow at any rate you want it to. In addition, you could make the entire plane out of platinum and diamonds and have your construct slaves take nigh infinite time mining it all to make you super wealthy. This is only one of several potential reasons why the spell is horribly, ludicrously, stupidly overpowered.

3. Yes, you would have to import life from outside the new plane.

JonestheSpy
2010-08-25, 03:55 PM
Lots of people think that because time isn't specifically excluded from aspects of the created demiplane they can do all sorts of time tricks like the one the OP mentioned. I really can't imagine a DM allowing that in real game play without setting up a big billboard saying "PLEASE DESTROY MY CAMPAIGN".

Morithias
2010-08-25, 03:58 PM
Lots of people think that because time isn't specifically excluded from aspects of the created demiplane they can do all sorts of time tricks like the one the OP mentioned. I really can't imagine a DM allowing that in real game play without setting up a big billboard saying "PLEASE DESTROY MY CAMPAIGN".

Rapid Aging Anyone? x7 doesn't seem like much, but when the clever Dm hits them with a curse that enhances time effects from a powerful wizard or demon they cheesed, all of a sudden the 8 hours becomes 80 years. Or something.

liquid150
2010-08-25, 04:25 PM
It's generally a good idea to go with the same restrictions placed on the Divine and Psionic versions, which prohibit time traits from being alterable (for good reason).

Mordrigar
2010-08-25, 04:32 PM
Rapid Aging Anyone? x7 doesn't seem like much, but when the clever Dm hits them with a curse that enhances time effects from a powerful wizard or demon they cheesed, all of a sudden the 8 hours becomes 80 years. Or something.

Nice point. ;) Especially, a DM like mine, could turn any advantage to disadvantage like you mentioned above.

Yukitsu
2010-08-25, 07:09 PM
My DM accidently did that to me. I was an immortal that grew better with age. :smallconfused:

devinkowalczyk
2010-08-25, 09:46 PM
A thought if you do create it.
The spell is not very clear to me about what the shape of the plane is. The idea I liked best was creating a Sphere with you living on the inside
(thing living on the inside of a basketball, with gravity being Out)

Marnath
2010-08-25, 09:50 PM
A thought if you do create it.
The spell is not very clear to me about what the shape of the plane is. The idea I liked best was creating a Sphere with you living on the inside
(thing living on the inside of a basketball, with gravity being Out)

I always pictured a half-sphere, like living inside a snowglobe or something.

tyckspoon
2010-08-25, 09:54 PM
A thought if you do create it.
The spell is not very clear to me about what the shape of the plane is. The idea I liked best was creating a Sphere with you living on the inside
(thing living on the inside of a basketball, with gravity being Out)

It's a Radius, so unless otherwise specified it's going to form a sphere. Most people presumably mimic the Material plane and have it form with a 'ground' and 'sky' zone.

Mando Knight
2010-08-25, 10:17 PM
First: Genesis is 9th level but on SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) it's under Epic Spell List but titled as Non-Epic. Correct me if i'm wrong: that means you have to be an Epic Caster to cast that spell but spell is not considered as epic.

It's a non-Epic spell that was introduced in the OGC in the Epic Level Handbook, and thus grouped with the rest of the Epic level stuff on d20SRD (which does, in fact, include more than the SRD: Psionics, Deities, and UA variants are all non-SRD content on the site that were posted because it's official OGC from WotC products).

Marnath
2010-08-25, 10:35 PM
If you empowered Genesis, would you get a 270 foot radius?

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-25, 10:40 PM
How would you empower a 9th level spell? On second thought, don't tell me. The Cheese's smell would kill me.

Boci
2010-08-25, 10:45 PM
How would you empower a 9th level spell? On second thought, don't tell me. The Cheese's smell would kill me.

Its not all cheesy. Greater metamagic rod of empower would do it. However, I think widen would be more successful.

Hirax
2010-08-25, 10:46 PM
Genesis would be a more balanced spell if its EXP cost were variable depending on the properties of plane. The more it differs from the caster's native plane, increase the EXP cost exponentially.

Eldariel
2010-08-25, 10:52 PM
First: Genesis is 9th level but on SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) it's under Epic Spell List but titled as Non-Epic. Correct me if i'm wrong: that means you have to be an Epic Caster to cast that spell but spell is not considered as epic.

No. Its placing simply means it was first released in Epic Level Handbook and is eligible for the SRD through that route. The location has no other bearing on its status and it's just the same a 9th level spell as Time Stop or Disjunction; it's even in the SRD so it's from a less obscure source than e.g. Spell Compendium spells. As such, while pretty insane (yeah, making planes of existence is rather awesome), it's a rather "available" 9th level spell all things considered.

Marnath
2010-08-25, 10:53 PM
How would you empower a 9th level spell? On second thought, don't tell me. The Cheese's smell would kill me.

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity), twice to get an 11th level slot. No cheese here.

2xMachina
2010-08-25, 10:54 PM
Rods. Expensive like hell, but hey, you're gonna be epic to bother empowering it.

There's also the Metamagic reducers.

EDIT: Man, swordsage pile up.

EDIT2: Also, you cannot have precious material made in your plane.

DownwardSpiral
2010-08-25, 10:57 PM
If you empowered Genesis, would you get a 270 foot radius?

No. Has to be variable.


Empower Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.


EDIT: I should probably say, you're probably thinking of "Widen spell". That would probably do what you're thinking.

Marnath
2010-08-25, 11:00 PM
No. Has to be variable.

Sweet. I guess i missed the bolded part when i looked at that. I would probably allow it if a player wanted to do that, because honestly for burning two epic feats, you should be able to get an extra 90 feet per casting, it's hardly the worst thing you can do with epic....

*edit @^ : Oh yeeeeaaahhh, thats what i meant. Kewl beans.

Peregrine
2010-08-26, 12:13 PM
It's a non-Epic spell that was introduced in the OGC in the Epic Level Handbook, and thus grouped with the rest of the Epic level stuff on d20SRD (which does, in fact, include more than the SRD: Psionics, Deities, and UA variants are all non-SRD content on the site that were posted because it's official OGC from WotC products).

Actually not quite right. The SRD includes all Open Game Content released by Wizards of the Coast (the D&D content, I mean; the d20 Modern stuff has its own SRD), except for Unearthed Arcana. So that includes core, epic, psionics, and divine (though not "deities").

But you're right that the d20SRD website does include non-SRD content. The site itself has a summary, but it includes stuff from Unearthed Arcana (lots of OGC variant rules), the two OGC monsters from the Monster Manual 2 (third-party stuff that WotC republished), and the errata (never declared OGC but perfectly compatible with the SRD).

And you're also right that it was put into a separate section (in the SRD, and hence on d20SRD) because it was published in the Epic Level Handbook. The SRD's organisation largely reflected that of the books it was drawn from. The d20SRD site rearranges some things -- for instance, the SRD puts special abilities and conditions together, because that's what the printed glossary did, whereas on the Web it makes more sense to reshuffle that stuff -- but the core/epic/psionics/divine split is maintained. So there are spells and feats in the epic, psionic and divine sections that are perfectly accessible to non-epic, non-psionic, non-divine characters.

And genesis is one of them. (Assuming it's allowed in by the DM, as it remains non-core and quite easy to break. :smalltongue:)

JaronK
2010-08-26, 02:07 PM
I have 3 things about that spell:

First: Genesis is 9th level but on SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) it's under Epic Spell List but titled as Non-Epic. Correct me if i'm wrong: that means you have to be an Epic Caster to cast that spell but spell is not considered as epic.

Nope, it was released in the Epic handbook, which is why it's there. But you don't have to be epic, just like you don't have to be arcane to cast divine spells found in Complete Arcane.


Second: You choose every factor of your demiplane. That means you can choose its time conditions too. So if you faster time in your demiplane (for example x7 faster than normal) will it take less to cast the spell? Normally spell takes a week to complete (8 hours casting each day) but whle time flows quicker at there, it'll take only 8 -Earth- hours to complete.

Yes, but you'd have to be in the plane first (which theoretically you can't be until it's mostly created already... once you fit you can get in). And note that abusing time traits is EXTREMELY broken... you could make it Flowing Time 10,000,000,000 if you wanted, along with Timeless so you don't age fast. Then use gate to attack enemies whereever they are. The divine version of the spell is written the same but specifically outlaws messing with time traits.


And Third: It says you can't create anything alive with that spell. So do you have to collect species and breed them at your own plane? That sounds fun; but what are the conditions of creating a fauna or flora?

Yeah, you likely have to go collect stuff. It says nothing alive, not no creatures (plants are technically objects, not creatures, unless they have HD).

JaronK

hamishspence
2010-08-26, 02:09 PM
I know the Psionic version says "normal time only"- but which of the divine versions does?

Defenders of the Faith, Deities & Demigods, and Epic Handbook all have a version of Genesis that can be cast if you have the Creation domain- but I don't recall any of them saying "cannot change the time trait".

(Complete Divine revises the Creation domain entirely, replacing Genesis with something else).

JaronK
2010-08-26, 02:16 PM
I know the Psionic version says "normal time only"- but which of the divine versions does?

Defenders of the Faith, Deities & Demigods, and Epic Handbook all have a version of Genesis that can be cast if you have the Creation domain- but I don't recall any of them saying "cannot change the time trait".

(Complete Divine revises the Creation domain entirely, replacing Genesis with something else).

Honestly, I don't remember, but I did see a version that just added that sentence to the end.

JaronK

hamishspence
2010-08-26, 02:24 PM
I've just looked- it's not those 3, Spell Compendium doesn't have it- the only places I've seen where it says "You can't manipulate the Time trait" are the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the prestige class Planeshaper in Manual of the Planes- which can create a demiplane.

Maybe there's another source somewhere?

hamishspence
2010-08-26, 02:35 PM
Found it! The spell is not Genesis, but Word of Genesis- requires a DC50 Truespeak check, and is found in Tome of Magic, as a Cleric spell rather than a Creation Domain spell.

Soren Hero
2010-08-26, 03:54 PM
genesis is pretty cheesy as its written in the SRD...to make it even more cheesy, create a spell clock that casts genesis once an hour...it is entirely legal RAW...spell clock can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a)...one year of this spell clock casting genesis would generate 8670 casts of genesis...for about 65,000 gp and 10,000 xp...

to kick it up a knotch on the cheesiness scale, apply Manifest Zone to the area around the spell clock to alter the time traits for fast flowing time...im not entirely familiar with Manifest Zone, its duration or casting time, so any info on that would be great...however, with manifest zone, you can alter the time trait so the time around the spell clock is ridiculously fast, say six seconds real time (the time we observe outside the zone) is one year observed time (time we observe inside the zone)....for every hour that passes in real time, 600 years pass in the observed time, which means that the spell clock has cast a total of 5,256,000 Genesis spells...this creates a demiplane with a radius of 946,080,000 ft, or 179181.82 miles...for reference purposes, the radius of the Earth is 3,950 – 3,963 mi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_radius)

genesis=cheese
genesis+spell clock=rotten cheese
genesis+spell clock+manifest zone=Priceless

Marnath
2010-08-26, 07:18 PM
genesis is pretty cheesy as its written in the SRD...to make it even more cheesy, create a spell clock that casts genesis once an hour...it is entirely legal RAW...

Ok, i'm just gonna stop you there. If you read the spell description, you'll see it takes a week to cast, not an hour.

Soren Hero
2010-08-26, 08:09 PM
Ok, i'm just gonna stop you there. If you read the spell description, you'll see it takes a week to cast, not an hour.

i see your point about the casting time...but it isn't a person casting the spell, it is an item doing it...are there any rules that prevent spells from resolving if more are waiting? if it takes one week to complete each spell, what prevents the spells from waiting until each spell resolves? for example...the spell clock casts genesis A, then one hour later it casts genesis B...one week later, genesis A resolves, which adds the 180 ft radius...then one hour later, genesis B resolves, adding another 180 ft to the radius...sounds reasonable...i don't see how RAW on genesis or spell clock prevents this

EDIT:i have to admit tho, any DM who would allow the spell clock and genesis in general is asking to break their campaign

Marnath
2010-08-26, 08:38 PM
Except Genesis A fails as soon as you quit working on it at only 1/8 of the way through a days casting. That week is 8 hours a day. Spell clocks are poorly written trash anyways.

FelixG
2010-08-26, 08:57 PM
I had a fun idea for genesis, a wizard made a spell clock to create the genesis then buried it and it just kept ticking away making the world larger, with x50 speed (or higher) and give the new inhabitants only a few basic rules which equate to magic being outlawed, anyone with magic (devine or arcane) was to be killed.

Go back to the material plane and wait for a long time, become a lich if he must... But go back later to see how technology evolves without magic interfering.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-26, 09:31 PM
I had a fun idea for genesis, a wizard made a spell clock to create the genesis then buried it and it just kept ticking away making the world larger, with x50 speed (or higher) and give the new inhabitants only a few basic rules which equate to magic being outlawed, anyone with magic (devine or arcane) was to be killed.

Go back to the material plane and wait for a long time, become a lich if he must... But go back later to see how technology evolves without magic interfering.

there would probably still be magic but it would be to a lesser extent and would be underground

Soren Hero
2010-08-27, 05:50 AM
Except Genesis A fails as soon as you quit working on it at only 1/8 of the way through a days casting. That week is 8 hours a day. Spell clocks are poorly written trash anyways.

i guess its hard to say whether or not genesis A actually fails...i haven't found any precedent for a magic item failing to casts its magic because you are "not working on it"...i agree that spell clocks are poorly written...but they are just like magical traps with the auto reset function, and time delay.


I had a fun idea for genesis, a wizard made a spell clock to create the genesis then buried it and it just kept ticking away making the world larger, with x50 speed (or higher) and give the new inhabitants only a few basic rules which equate to magic being outlawed, anyone with magic (devine or arcane) was to be killed.

Go back to the material plane and wait for a long time, become a lich if he must... But go back later to see how technology evolves without magic interfering.

you'd have to create the building blocks of your world first, either by importing materials or casting lots spells which create permanent effects, such as wall of stone/iron spells...the genesis spell only creates the basic nature of your demiplane..for reference
The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.

that being said, I would love to play in a game using that world

2xMachina
2010-08-27, 12:05 PM
You made a new plane. Good for you. And how does it break the campaign?

Soren Hero
2010-08-27, 02:00 PM
the creation of the plane in general doesn't necessarily break your campaign...but as with most other aspects of 3.5, abusing the mechanics can break it...empty space is empty space...but the ability to alter the flow of time is a great advantage...as mentioned earlier, if one plane is created that has fast flowing time, say six seconds (one round) in our plane equals 8.5 hours in the other plane, then it allows a caster to plane shift to the faster plane, rest 8 hours, recoup spells, and re-enter the fray fully prepared...its like having an uber version of time stop...basically, its like having your own Hyperbolic Time Chamber ala Dragonball Z...casters definitely benefit the most from having this time, but plane shifting the whole party to the fast plane allows time for planning, preparation, healing of wounds, etc...the batman wizards, god wizards, and CoDzillas are even more powerful in this example.

Awnetu
2010-08-27, 02:14 PM
You made a new plane. Good for you. And how does it break the campaign?

Its your own plane, no one else can join if you don't want them in the plane. Now you can do whatever you want, while living forever, no ones gonna touch you in that plane, but you still have the ability to interact with any other plane.

Combine it with an Artificer + some Infinite Crafting xp trick + and constructs built to work for you, and you can come out with an Army of Constructs to annihilate any opposition.

Or act like a batman wizard, and use it like an invincible batcave.

Soren Hero
2010-08-27, 02:19 PM
Combine it with an Artificer + some Infinite Crafting xp trick (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0) + and constructs built to work for you, and you can come out with an Army of Constructs to annihilate any opposition.


for those who don't know any of those tricks

2xMachina
2010-08-27, 02:36 PM
I should clarify, how does a larger plane help break a campaign?

Just 1 casting of genesis is usually enough to do whatever you want.

Marnath
2010-08-27, 03:37 PM
I should clarify, how does a larger plane help break a campaign?

Just 1 casting of genesis is usually enough to do whatever you want.

I should think that if you seeded it with life and stuff, the fast time would give you whole civilzations worth of people to serve as a personal army in a short time. The more space there is for that the better.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-27, 03:40 PM
I should clarify, how does a larger plane help break a campaign?

Just 1 casting of genesis is usually enough to do whatever you want.

This was my exact argument. All the truly broken stuff works with any size of plane.

A larger plane is only useful for those interested in building a world...which is what Genesis is there for. So...if someone's trying to use Genesis a lot, it's probably because they aren't interested in breaking the campaign with it, but rather with building a new world. This is awesome. Getting players to design setting stuff for you is ideal.