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WarKitty
2010-08-25, 03:47 PM
So I think I have the feat list for my summoner druid (3.5/PF) written out. What I was wondering was which ones are good to take first, what to put off, what to axe, etc. Playgrounders?


Spell focus (conjuration) - useless, but a prereq for augment summoning
Augment Summoning - the standard summoner feat
Imbued Summoning - nice, although eats spell slots at lower levels. Requires both spell focus and augment summoning.
Extend spell - extra time
Elemental Summoning (reserve) - cool toy, not a lot of battle utility
Metamagic focus (conjuration) - free metamagic without taking a lot of time
Rapid Spell - nerf that 1-round casting time


Natural spell will be taken at the appropriate time of course.

Greenbound summoning, Beckon the Frozen, Superior Summons, and anything from setting-specific books or Dragon Magazine, are not allowed.

Man With Dog
2010-08-25, 04:20 PM
So I think I have the feat list for my summoner druid (3.5/PF) written out. What I was wondering was which ones are good to take first, what to put off, what to axe, etc. Playgrounders?


Spell focus (conjuration) - useless, but a prereq for augment summoning
Augment Summoning - the standard summoner feat
Imbued Summoning - nice, although eats spell slots at lower levels. Requires both spell focus and augment summoning.
Extend spell - extra time
Elemental Summoning (reserve) - cool toy, not a lot of battle utility
Metamagic focus (conjuration) - free metamagic without taking a lot of time
Rapid Spell - nerf that 1-round casting time


Natural spell will be taken at the appropriate time of course.

Greenbound summoning, Beckon the Frozen, Superior Summons, and anything from setting-specific books or Dragon Magazine, are not allowed.



I would think Spell Focus (Conjuration) followed by Augment summoning would be best if you want to focus on Summoning.
As for Extend Spell - could mebbe get a Rod of Extend for a few gold?

WarKitty
2010-08-25, 04:37 PM
I would think Spell Focus (Conjuration) followed by Augment summoning would be best if you want to focus on Summoning.
As for Extend Spell - could mebbe get a Rod of Extend for a few gold?

Not sure. Our DM can be a bit stingy with gold.

Keld Denar
2010-08-25, 04:52 PM
Extend Spell with summons is generally not a great idea. By the time you are able to extend a summon, it'll generally either last long enough, or soak up a hit or two and die. If at 5th level, your SNA III makes it 5 rounds, you'll have gotten your money's worth. If given the choice of SNA II for 10 rounds or SNA III for 5 rounds, I'd choose SNA III for 5 rounds every time, especially with the 1d3 option from the SNA II list. Keep in mind that Augmented Summoning favors summoning multiple creatures with multiple attacks. If you summon 1 guy off the SNA IV list, he'll get +2 to hit and +1-2 to damage. If you summon 1d4+1 guys off the SNAII list (Hipogryphs are amazing for this), EACH of them gets +2 hit and +1-2 damage. The damage from multiple Hipogryphs can really stack up. Alternatively, if the goal of your summon is to tank, you'll have to do the balance between the HP/AC of one big summon vs the shear HP value of a wall of bison.

Summoning to max efficiency is a lot of math...:smallfurious:

Adumbration
2010-08-25, 04:55 PM
Not entirely related to feats, but you may find that Ring of the Beast (CChampion) is an excellent investment of 8 000 gps for a druid summoner. Essentially allows you to use lower level Summon Nature's ally spells as if they were higher level. Very powerful.

WarKitty
2010-08-25, 04:55 PM
Extend Spell with summons is generally not a great idea. By the time you are able to extend a summon, it'll generally either last long enough, or soak up a hit or two and die. If at 5th level, your SNA III makes it 5 rounds, you'll have gotten your money's worth. If given the choice of SNA II for 10 rounds or SNA III for 5 rounds, I'd choose SNA III for 5 rounds every time, especially with the 1d3 option from the SNA II list. Keep in mind that Augmented Summoning favors summoning multiple creatures with multiple attacks. If you summon 1 guy off the SNA IV list, he'll get +2 to hit and +1-2 to damage. If you summon 1d4+1 guys off the SNAII list (Hipogryphs are amazing for this), EACH of them gets +2 hit and +1-2 damage. The damage from multiple Hipogryphs can really stack up. Alternatively, if the goal of your summon is to tank, you'll have to do the balance between the HP/AC of one big summon vs the shear HP value of a wall of bison.

Summoning to max efficiency is a lot of math...:smallfurious:

Good point. Maximize spell possibly if I end up using the 1d3 option a lot?

Edit: I like math.

Darrin
2010-08-25, 08:36 PM
Rapid Spell - nerf that 1-round casting time



Golden Desert Honey (Complete Mage p. 136) may be able to hold you over until you can pick up Rapid Spell. 300 GP each isn't cheap, though... but since it's non-magical, you can substitute a Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook p. 76) for 100 GP. The 1/2 lb flask should be able to produce enough doses of honey (negligible weight) to last a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom score before it dissipates. You still need to use a standard action to convert it into the honey, but you can get around that by converting out-of-combat and keeping the honey in stasis with a Glove of Storing/Master Strategist.

Soranar
2010-08-25, 08:48 PM
Spell focus (conjuration) - useless, but a prereq for augment summoning

-there are ways to take augment without this (cleric domain and some prestige classes, notably an eberron one for druids)

Augment Summoning - the standard summoner feat

-good feat

Imbued Summoning - nice, although eats spell slots at lower levels. Requires both spell focus and augment summoning.
Extend spell - extra time

-most fights are 5 rounds long, not worth it most of the time

Elemental Summoning (reserve) - cool toy, not a lot of battle utility

-not worth it

Metamagic focus (conjuration) - free metamagic without taking a lot of time

-most of the time not worth it (except for boss fights)

Rapid Spell - nerf that 1-round casting time

-worth it

WarKitty
2010-08-25, 08:52 PM
Spell focus (conjuration) - useless, but a prereq for augment summoning

-there are ways to take augment without this (cleric domain and some prestige classes, notably an eberron one for druids)

Augment Summoning - the standard summoner feat

-good feat

Imbued Summoning - nice, although eats spell slots at lower levels. Requires both spell focus and augment summoning.
Extend spell - extra time

-most fights are 5 rounds long, not worth it most of the time

Elemental Summoning (reserve) - cool toy, not a lot of battle utility

-not worth it

Metamagic focus (conjuration) - free metamagic without taking a lot of time

-most of the time not worth it (except for boss fights)

Rapid Spell - nerf that 1-round casting time

-worth it

Thanks. Unfortunately I haven't seen any ways around Spell Focus that are useful for a druid given the restrictions I listed in the first post on source material.

erikun
2010-08-25, 09:07 PM
Natural Spell would obviously be taken at 6th level. Elemental Summoning requires 4th level spell slots, and so can't be taken until 9th level. It's not terribly useful for combat, but is nice of a continuous stream of summons.

Metamagic Focus is only useful if you're using a metamagic feat, obviously. Rapid Spell is good to prevent your spells from being interrupted between turns. Extend Spell, as mentioned, isn't generally worth it in most fights. Imbued Summoning requires two feats as prerequisites, so isn't practical at low levels.

It looks like you are best with Spell Focus (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd), and Natural Spell (6th). Metamagic Focus is only useful for three spells, so it isn't very useful with multiple different metamagic feats. Rapid Spell/Metamagic Focus is probably your best bet, with Rapid Spell being the earlier choice.

WarKitty
2010-08-25, 09:08 PM
Natural Spell would obviously be taken at 6th level. Elemental Summoning requires 4th level spell slots, and so can't be taken until 9th level. It's not terribly useful for combat, but is nice of a continuous stream of summons.

Metamagic Focus is only useful if you're using a metamagic feat, obviously. Rapid Spell is good to prevent your spells from being interrupted between turns. Extend Spell, as mentioned, isn't generally worth it in most fights. Imbued Summoning requires two feats as prerequisites, so isn't practical at low levels.

It looks like you are best with Spell Focus (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd), and Natural Spell (6th). Metamagic Focus is only useful for three spells, so it isn't very useful with multiple different metamagic feats. Rapid Spell/Metamagic Focus is probably your best bet, with Rapid Spell being the earlier choice.

Pathfinder. I have feats every odd level.

erikun
2010-08-25, 09:23 PM
Oh. Well that makes Natural Spell at 5th and the earliest time you can get Elemental Summoning being 7th. Pretty much everything else is the same.

Esser-Z
2010-08-26, 11:22 AM
Spell focus isn't TOTALLY useless! It makes it a bit harder to resist your Fog/Cloud line of spells!

tyckspoon
2010-08-26, 11:45 AM
Spell focus isn't TOTALLY useless! It makes it a bit harder to resist your Fog/Cloud line of spells!

:smallconfused: I checked for whitetext, and.. uh? Is this sarcasm or forgetfulness or what? Virtually all Fog/Cloud-based spells don't offer any form of save as is.

Esser-Z
2010-08-26, 11:51 AM
Stinking Cloud has Fort Negates. Good ol' cloudkill has fort partial. Incendiary also has a save, as do the planar bindings and any attempt to use a teleport on an unwilling subject. Grease has some save-based stuff!

Mind, I tend to think in terms of PF, and it remains not a very good choice, but it's not totally useless.

I also have a tendency not to use whitetext, thanks to other forums I frequent having not everyone use the same skin. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2010-08-26, 12:00 PM
Isn't Drown (from SpC) also a Conjuration spell? I'm sure there are a few others that qualify as well.

Esser-Z
2010-08-26, 12:18 PM
I mean, the minor DC bonus to *some* of your spells isn't really a big effect, but it can help. Not a top tier feat, but not a totally useless prereq either.

WarKitty
2010-08-26, 08:29 PM
I mean, the minor DC bonus to *some* of your spells isn't really a big effect, but it can help. Not a top tier feat, but not a totally useless prereq either.

Given that my party has laid it on me to have multiple Vigor spells prepared at all times, probably pretty useless. Still, have to take it...

Esser-Z
2010-08-26, 08:36 PM
Well, you're buffing rather than running area control, so. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2010-08-26, 08:49 PM
Arc of Lightning is also Conjuration. Very nice 4th level damage spell.

ericgrau
2010-08-26, 10:10 PM
Extend seems useless except at low levels. I can't think of a situation where you'll have 1-2 minutes between fights but not less than 1 minute. Nor any fights that will last long enough to use extended summons, again except at low levels.

Rapid spell seems very important both to let the summon fight for one more early round and to avoid being disrupted while you're casting. That's very powerful in a typical 5 round fight where most of the action is in the first two rounds.

I'd guestimate that augment summoning makes the summoned creatures 1-2 CR higher. I'd say rapid spell is much better and should come first.

Speak with animals, possibly quickened, is important if you want your summons to do anything besides attack. By RAW that's all they can do otherwise. You can't even pick who they hit. Good for sending summoned animals into traps.

IdleMuse
2010-08-26, 10:28 PM
there are ways to take augment without this (cleric domain and some prestige classes, notably an eberron one for druids)

I'm curious, but couldn't find it on cursory sweep through my eberron books. Page reference plz?