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The Pressman
2010-08-25, 08:43 PM
I just wanted to know what the big hullabaloo is. I don't want to start an argument, I just want to know the reasons.

Eldariel
2010-08-25, 08:56 PM
I just wanted to know what the big hullabaloo is. I don't want to start an argument, I just want to know the reasons.

What exactly do you want to know? The reason for the threads? Well, it's basically the following:

A number of people (yours truly included) find that the raw numbers the class provides dictate that Monk is a subpar class (in comparison to most other core classes, and especially the stronger classes) with too few relevant class features.
A number of people disagree, on multiple different bases and with many different motivations.
Every week, some new user wonders what all the ruckus is about and starts a thread innocously asking "Why do Monks suck?"


As there's so much "noise" in the threads, they usually go nowhere and devolve into tired repetition of the same arguments by the same people that never goes anywhere, and then fallacies and usually they eventually result in a test.

As for the power discussions, the links in my sig may be of help (the ones regarding the Tier system).

Greenish
2010-08-25, 08:57 PM
Now that Glyphstone is a mod, can I report this thread for popcorn? :smallcool:

Thefurmonger
2010-08-25, 08:58 PM
wow, seems like just last week............

Soranar
2010-08-25, 09:02 PM
there are plenty of threads on the subject, but basically it comes down to this

monks are MAD (multiple ability dependant)
monks have skills that don't combine well (+ movement yet flurry doesn't work on a charge)
monks abilities don't progress quickly enough
monks don't have easy access to magic weapons (unless your DM says otherwise, you can't enchant your fists like a normal weapon)
monks suffer from a poor BAB for a melee class
monks have poor HP for a melee class
monks require more magic items than most classes to be effective

conclusion: a highly optimized monk may be tier 4 as opposed to attaining tier 3 like most other lower tier classes that optimize a lot

The Glyphstone
2010-08-25, 09:07 PM
Now that Glyphstone is a mod, can I report this thread for popcorn? :smallcool:

*poofs*

Ask, and ye shall deliver.

Someone want to go hunt out last week's monk thread and give a link? You'll get extra butter on your popcorn if you do.

Boci
2010-08-25, 09:13 PM
*poofs*

Ask, and ye shall deliver.

Someone want to go hunt out last week's monk thread and give a link? You'll get extra butter on your popcorn if you do.

Not last weeks, but I think this is the best one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628&highlight=paladin+monk+fighters

Elfin
2010-08-25, 09:13 PM
Here we go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160512&highlight=monk)

So, popcorn?

Edit: Swordsaged. Ah, well.

Marnath
2010-08-25, 09:13 PM
Can we just get one of the more complete monk threads, scrub the flames, and sticky it? It would stop us from this twice weekly business.....

The Glyphstone
2010-08-25, 09:14 PM
You really think anyone reads the stickies?:smallconfused:

Boci
2010-08-25, 09:16 PM
You really think anyone reads the stickies?:smallconfused:

Make it in the forume rules. Forbid anyone from posting a topic already covered by the stickies. Or not, since I always have so much fun in those threads. And I haven't quite gotten an infration yet.

Elfin
2010-08-25, 09:17 PM
You really think anyone reads the stickies?:smallconfused:

...No, of course not.
*Shifts eyes guiltily*


Make it in the forume rules. Forbid anyone from posting a topic already covered by the stickies. Or not, since I always have so much fun in those threads. And I haven't quite gotten an infration yet.

That's not necessarily a bad idea, actually.

The Pressman
2010-08-25, 09:18 PM
I'm sorry, I just wanted to know.:smallfrown:]

Could you delete this thread, then, since it's answered and done with?

Elfin
2010-08-25, 09:21 PM
I'm sorry, I just wanted to know.:smallfrown:]

Could you delete this thread, then, since it's answered and done with?

Sorry if it's sounded a little sharp; I, at least, definitely didn't mean it to. :smallsmile:
'Tis a natural question to ask, and there's certainly nothing wrong with asking...we do get a lot of monk threads, though.

Marnath
2010-08-25, 09:23 PM
I still think my idea is good. Should i suggest it over in board issues, Glyphstone?

Boci
2010-08-25, 09:23 PM
I'm sorry, I just wanted to know.:smallfrown:]

Could you delete this thread, then, since it's answered and done with?

Threads like this aren't deleted. They can be locked at the request of the OP though.

Temotei
2010-08-25, 09:28 PM
Aye, I asked why they were bad back in the day, too, requesting specific reasons.

Basically, monks are a melee class restricted to using their fists or a number of junk weapons, no armor, and with a massive dependence on a great number of ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom). Their flurry of whiffs only works on a full attack action, so their movement rate goes to waste most of the time. Slow fall is crap. Spell resistance hurts them. Their capstone makes them weaker.

Their class features fall under the category of, "Oh. They're there, I guess."

Monks are good for one or two-level dips (two bonus feats, Wisdom to AC, evasion), but that's about it.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-25, 09:28 PM
Hey, I'm just a mod, not an admin - I enforce policy, not write it. You can always give it a shot though.

In any case, the OP seems to have the right idea, so

Great Modthulhu: Thread Locked.