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View Full Version : Class With Favorite Flavor But Least Favorite Mechanics [3.5]



Temotei
2010-08-25, 09:17 PM
As the title asks (without punctuation), what's your favorite class with junk (whether weak, overpowered, or just plain not fun) mechanics?

Noneoyabizzness
2010-08-25, 09:18 PM
truenamer.

come on its basically a person with the godlike powers that almost never work.

Zaydos
2010-08-25, 09:20 PM
Truenamer (it should work :smallfrown:). I love the idea of a mage using true names (main reason I got the Tome of Magic) but it just doesn't work.

After that well I love the flavor of wizards and druids but I keep finding myself building wizards and then having to strip the power level down a bit for me not to find it too powerful... I somewhat blame finding online gaming resources, they got me dumpster diving more than I used to (that said I love them).

gallagher
2010-08-25, 09:22 PM
i really wish spellthief would be worth more than a 2 level dip max.
most people only go for a 1 level dip, but with a second i can steal buffs. that means i can take your stoneskin, your bears endurance, your boars strength, yada yada yada

Greenish
2010-08-25, 09:24 PM
Swashbuckler. They should be awesome, but the class is just meh (without Daring Outlaw). Poking people with a finessed weapon without extra source of damage just doesn't cut it. (Int to damage is not enough.)

Also, as frequently lampshaded, no proficiency with buckler, not that you'd need it.

erikun
2010-08-25, 09:26 PM
Truenamer, as others have said, should have been a useable skill-based Wizard. Instead, we got... well, the Truenamer.

Lasher (3.0 Sword and Fist PrC) was a whip-based fighter who was able to use the whip for lethal damage, using it as a grappling hook, and with Whirlwind Attack as a capstone. Definitely a neat idea, especially being able to "grab" items from a distance and bring them to you. Too bad the whip wasn't that useful beforehand and still isn't that useful afterwards.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-25, 09:30 PM
Howbout the True Necromancer? When a theurge class is worse than Mystic Theurge, you know you have a problem, but it's got so much potential.

gomipile
2010-08-25, 09:33 PM
CW Samurai.

RndmNumGen
2010-08-25, 09:35 PM
Mystic Theurge. I love the idea of being skilled in both arcane and divine magic, but it just doesn't work unless you spam cheese from non-core sources, and if you're doing that why not just use a different dual-progression class that is innately better?

Vangor
2010-08-25, 09:38 PM
Frenzied Berserker, simply because the sheer power was fantastic with a class focused on being reckless. No magic item activation, no potions, and further lowered armor are potential downsides enough to require to stopping a frenzy early, but the hope is brute force overcomes the need to use anything. Unfortunately, the most significant problem of frenzy is for the rest of the party. You venture from recklessness to stupid bloodlust.

Absolutely the class is mechanically powerful, but I think this kills the idea of being reckless to deal more damage.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-25, 09:41 PM
Oh, I have a list.

Marshal -- this easily could have been an amazing leader-esque class: instead, the bard outshines it at nearly anything it can do.
Dragon Shaman -- Even without the Dragonfire Adept, it is sort of "meh".
Warmage -- It is not good enough at it's own job in order to make its concept viable.
Green Star Adept -- AMAZING idea, idiotic execution.
Soulborn -- Sadly, the worst incarnum class by far. The Incarnate makes a better melee character, and it has 1/2 BAB.
Soulknife -- To be frank, this should be a feat or a feat chain, not a class.

Morithias
2010-08-25, 09:41 PM
Fiend of Corruption.

My main problem with it is....the succubus doesn't qualify for it without class levels.....

Seriously? The succubus was the original "corrupt the pure" demon in the classic hebrew mythology, and it doesn't qualify for the fiend of corruption?

Blue Ghost
2010-08-25, 09:43 PM
My vote goes to paladin. I love the concept, but I have to dig out a homebrew fix to play it, since the mechanics are so bland.

Tael
2010-08-25, 09:47 PM
For the love of all that is good and holy - MONK!
But I've got the Unarmed Swordsage now, so it's all cool. Ah, I remember the days before I discovered Tome of Battle... they were cold bitter days, filled with longing and regret. :smallfrown:

FMArthur
2010-08-25, 09:56 PM
Soulknife, hands down. It doesn't do anything interesting except generate a weapon with its mind... and that was always enough flavor for me. The problem comes when you realize that the way you acquire your weapon doesn't have anything to do with how well you can use it, and I guess the class designer thought the opposite since that's almost all the class gives you.

Mind Blade should have been a (short) feat chain, maybe even just two feats long with extras for additional goodies. The Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warrior ACF sort of replicates the flavor (though not completely) and takes too long to generate the weapon. The Soulbow prestige class revives your Soulknife into... something stronger yet completely different.

I did see someone here mention a Kalashtar Soulknife/Monk/Atavist build that somehow shaped the Mind Blade into an unarmed strike, thus combining two subpar weapon abilities with Atavist to make something greater than one or the other. But how do you shape your Mind Blade into an unarmed strike?

gallagher
2010-08-25, 09:58 PM
Soulknife, hands down. It doesn't do anything interesting except generate a weapon with its mind... and that was always enough flavor for me. The problem comes when you realize that the way you acquire your weapon doesn't have anything to do with how well you can use it, and I guess the class designer thought the opposite since that's almost all the class gives you.

Mind Blade should have been a (short) feat chain, maybe even just two feats long with extras for additional goodies. The Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warrior ACF sort of replicates the flavor (though not completely) and takes too long to generate the weapon. The Soulbow prestige class revives your Soulknife into... something stronger yet completely different.

I did see someone here mention a Kalashtar Soulknife/Monk/Atavist build that somehow shaped the Mind Blade into an unarmed strike, thus combining two subpar weapon abilities with Atavist to make something greater than one or the other. But how do you shape your Mind Blade into an unarmed strike?

maybe get a mindblade that is a special monk weapon?

Thurbane
2010-08-25, 09:59 PM
I'm going to put Marshal up there...when they had a 2nd try at an aura based class (Dragon Shaman) they did better, but still a class that doesn't have enough to back it's auras up.

Maybe if you combined the best features of Marshal (martial weapon prof, heavy armor prof, 4 skill points/level from a decent list, able to project both a major and minor aura) onto the chassis of the Dragon Shaman, you'd have a much more solid class than either.

---

Oh, and Legacy Champion...but that's more due to the suckitude of the Legacy Weapon rules than the class in and of itself.

Zaydos
2010-08-25, 10:00 PM
I'm going to put Marshal up there...when they had a 2nd try at an aura based class (Dragon Shaman) they did better, but still a class that doesn't have enough to back it's auras up.

Maybe if you combined the best features of Marshal (martial weapon prof, heavy armor prof, 4 skill points/level from a decent list, able to project both a major and minor aura) onto the chassis of the Dragon Shaman, you'd have a much more solid class than either.

I actually like using ToB (especially White Raven) as an idea for a Marshal fix. Maybe that's just because of flavor though.

Greenish
2010-08-25, 10:06 PM
But how do you shape your Mind Blade into an unarmed strike?There's a feat in one of the dragon mags that lets you shape your mindblade into a chosen weapon, I seem to recall.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-25, 10:11 PM
Monk. All that fancy asskicking onelines ready and you you suddenly discover monks have the attention span of lemmings when it comes to training.

Ormur
2010-08-25, 10:11 PM
Ranger maybe. I just like the idea of a ranger in touch with nature and living of the land somehow but the mechanics, while not as hideously borked as some listed here, are just lacklustre, like melee in core in general. A bit of a balancing might be switching the animal companion progression of druids and rangers and the wildshape ranger might be interesting too. I suppose it can also be salvaged with multiclassing or swift hunter.

It's mostly because it's the only tier 4 and below class that has ever appealed to me for flavour reasons. Ah, well and the rogue but there are plenty of ways to make that concept work with multiclassing or similar-but-higher-tier classes, less so for the ranger.

NineThePuma
2010-08-27, 08:50 AM
Soul Knife. Nothing beats /stabbing people with your pointy thoughts/z.

But... The class sorta speaks for itself. While there are rehauls that make it decent, it still sucks.

Nero24200
2010-08-27, 09:31 AM
Fighter - I don't like the mechanics of "You gain a level, you gain the same thing you gained at level 1". Casters get higher level spells, combat classes get improvements to their class features...the fighter gets nothing more. I can understand the need for a "generic warrior" class, but giving it no class features is a bit far.

Truenamer - Excellent fluff, but gets weaker with each level. They really should have play-tested the truename mechanics.

To a lesser extent
Ranger - Only a handful fo abilities scream "wilderness warrior" or "hunter" or "tracker". The rest of the abilities scream "specialist warrior". I also never really understood why, just by merit of being a ranger, you got free archer feats or two weapon fighting feats. If they're meant to be combat-focused, bonus combat feats would do the exact same thing, so why those two specific styles?

Vangor
2010-08-27, 09:33 AM
Fighter - I don't like the mechanics of "You gain a level, you gain the same thing you gained at level 1". Casters get higher level spells, combat classes get improvements to their class features...the fighter gets nothing more. I can understand the need for a "generic warrior" class, but giving it no class features is a bit far.

...you like the flavor of the fighter?

Telonius
2010-08-27, 09:46 AM
Warlock. I love the flavor, I love the Invocation mechanic, I love everything about it ... except the fact that you need to pull some serious shenanigans (and take a level of Binder) to get it to do a reasonable amount of damage.

dsmiles
2010-08-27, 09:46 AM
...you like the flavor of the fighter?

Fighter haz a flavor?

Amphetryon
2010-08-27, 09:48 AM
Shadowcaster needs to be included on this list. Amazing flavor, horrible mechanics, although there are decent fixes around.

Telonius
2010-08-27, 09:48 AM
Fighter haz a flavor?

http://realbadfriend.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/cat_knight.jpg
Yah. Iz metal.

Ignition
2010-08-27, 10:05 AM
If we're sticking with D&D 3.5, all books, final destination?

All of them. :smallwink:

I've been a little spoiled by non 3.5 systems, I'm afraid.

dsmiles
2010-08-27, 10:10 AM
I've been a little spoiled by non 3.5 systems, I'm afraid.

Rolemaster, FTW?

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-27, 10:15 AM
All of them. With but a few exceptions (Binder being a big saving grace here) all the really awesomely fluffed classes just suck ass. Truenamer, Soulknife, Dragon Disciple, Pale Master etc. fall into obscurity while boring crap like Wizard and Factotum are living the high life.

Mystic Theurge gets a special mention because it manages to be such an alluring concept despite having neither working mechanics nor any fluff longer than a few half hearted sentences. Truly my biggest disappointment ever in a class (especially since it's one so close to my heart).

GameSpawn
2010-08-27, 10:23 AM
Definitely Monk. Has all sorts of awesome seeming abilities that are too mechanically weak. Ki strike; your unarmed strikes are full of special power, but by the time you get the power they're not good enough (or are just extremely limited in the first place). Slow fall; you can fall without harm? sweet. Would be conditionally useful, if not for the existence of feather fall. Super unarmed attacks; again really cool, but consistently worse than magic weapons of the same level.

Jolly
2010-08-27, 10:45 AM
Ranger, rogue, monk, bard, wizard (and druid and cleric, I hate Vancian casting), mystic theurge, arcane archer, arcane trickster....

Tetrasodium
2010-08-27, 10:51 AM
Spellcarved soldier. A PrC aimed at a warforged honorable gish type character with no caster advancement and 2 of it's 5 abilities are a bonus against something qualified characters could simply gain immunity to through a feat or different PrC. One of what's left allows you to extend a buff, which is nice... one allows you to wear a third ring, again nice but for 4 levels you could just take the feat instead... the capstone grants a character that quite likely has at least DR2/adamantine... a nonstacking DR5/magic that doesn't stack with any other DR/Magic sources. Great fluff, neat concept, terrible execution that should have 2/5 or 3/5 caster advancement.

Thefurmonger
2010-08-27, 10:57 AM
Ill give a HUGE +1 to Marshal

This Class could have been SOOOOOOOOO freakin cool. sadly, it just sucks at everything. It's at best a 1 level dip. and really not even that.

Ignition
2010-08-27, 11:04 AM
Rolemaster, FTW?

More like ANIMA: Beyond Fantasy for the win :smallwink:

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-27, 11:06 AM
Also: Monsters.

Until Oslecamo & co's monster classes I'd never realised how fun it would be to play as a Beholder or Brain in a Jar (this is probably a good thing coz the stupid LA system makes me cry now).

Ormagoden
2010-08-27, 11:09 AM
http://realbadfriend.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/cat_knight.jpg
Yah. Iz metal.

I am WAY to tired to be viewing things like that!


My votes... Ninja, Monk, Samurai

Vantharion
2010-08-27, 11:19 AM
Sorcerer, where your rightful class mechanics become feats!
Truenamer
Swashbuckler

But the TRUE winner is!
The Favored Soul
I despise the mechanics... its more of just 'I melee...ish?' I would love a more caster based favored soul. A less tanky favored soul. It cant even really qualify for any prestige classes. Its divine spellcasting without Knowledge (Religion), Turning capabilities, or domain access.
Favored Soul could easily be my favorite class... Instead, it's my most hated class.

Dragosai
2010-08-27, 11:27 AM
Ill post my love/hate of the Soul Knife. Ah I wish WOTC would update them for 4E but with Psionic Power being out and no alt class builds or paragon paths that hint at a Soul Knife I gues I will have to wait and hope.

thompur
2010-08-27, 11:57 AM
Paladin and Ranger.


I really do not like hemi-semi-demi-casters. What's the point? Get rid of the spells. Give them more real class features.
Give the Pally more smites, SLAs, power to fight EVIL!
Give Rangers more nature based abilities, like Call Natures Ally(aka. the Tarzan Yell).
And, no, the variants in UA don't begin to cut it.

dsmiles
2010-08-27, 11:59 AM
Paladin and Ranger.


I really do not like hemi-semi-demi-casters. What's the point? Get rid of the spells. Give them more real class features.
Give the Pally more smites, SLAs, power to fight EVIL!
Give Rangers more nature based abilities, like Call Natures Ally(aka. the Tarzan Yell).
And, no, the variants in UA don't begin to cut it.

Um...in CW there were casterless Paladins and Rangers, IIRC.

El Dorado
2010-08-27, 12:00 PM
Monk. Like the flavor; dislike the mechanic. I tried playing a level 10 PHB monk (thinking: I can make this work!) but was smacked down by terrible, terrible reality. The unarmed swordsage looks great (haven't had the opportunity to play one) but part of me still wants the monk to work.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-27, 12:21 PM
Truenamer, Soulknife, Dragon Disciple, Pale Master etc. fall into obscurity while boring crap like Wizard and Factotum are living the high life.

Boring? Flavor is what you make it. A factotum who believed that his abilities came from applying math to the real world, as well as a wizard who thought he learned spells only via obsessive-compulsive rituals have both appeared at my gaming table.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-27, 12:45 PM
Um...in CW there were casterless Paladins and Rangers, IIRC.

And they blew, soooo...

At least the CC version (trade your halfcasting for a bonus feat every four levels) was dynamic even though it wasn't very interesting.

Greenish
2010-08-27, 12:46 PM
Boring? Flavor is what you make it. A factotum who believed that his abilities came from applying math to the real world, as well as a wizard who thought he learned spells only via obsessive-compulsive rituals have both appeared at my gaming table.I believe he means canned flavour. Factotum's entry just basically says it's a skillmonkey and good at dungeons.

Zaydos
2010-08-27, 12:47 PM
Boring? Flavor is what you make it. A factotum who believed that his abilities came from applying math to the real world, as well as a wizard who thought he learned spells only via obsessive-compulsive rituals have both appeared at my gaming table.

Second this. Also Pale Master = Necromancer wizard fluff with bad mechanics tacked on. The big thing about wizard is that it has 1001 different sets of fluff and you can take your pick from them. Are your verbal components true names? Are you spells the math formulas behind reality, too sublime to remain in your mind (if we want really Vancian casting)? Fluff is what you make of it and too much can be worse than none. Do you need a samurai class to play a samurai? No. Although giving fighter some social skills to do it might be a little nice.

dsmiles
2010-08-27, 12:48 PM
I believe he means canned flavour. Factotum's entry just basically says it's a skillmonkey and good at dungeons.

Here it comes, I can feel some interesting comments on this one.

How about the Gatecrasher PrC? I absolutely love that fluff, but the crunch leaves a lot to be desired.

Eldan
2010-08-27, 12:51 PM
Barbarian, probably.

Why? The flavour is cool. You are like a fighter, but replace your training in a martial academy with growing up half-naked in the wilderness and beating things with sticks. Then you get angry enough that you rip things to shreds. Cool.

The thing is... you get exactly one ability. Rage is a nice ability, but it gets boring soon if you can't do anything else.

Thank god for Tiger Claw warblades.

Fitz10019
2010-08-27, 12:57 PM
To a lesser extent
Ranger - Only a handful fo abilities scream "wilderness warrior" or "hunter" or "tracker". The rest of the abilities scream "specialist warrior". I also never really understood why, just by merit of being a ranger, you got free archer feats or two weapon fighting feats. If they're meant to be combat-focused, bonus combat feats would do the exact same thing, so why those two specific styles?

Well, the special thing supposedly is that rangers get those specific feats without qualifying for them. So, theoretically, they can take those Dex feats with low Dex and high Str, but they get screwed on armor proficiency, so they still need the Dex. I would fix the Ranger, not by opening up the feat options, but by giving them a bonus to AC (Wis?) or something else for survivability (DR?).

I love the flavor of the Whisperknife, but I have no interest in the thrower mechanics. I wish the bully-buster idea had a melee-friendly option.

Also, the Arcane Archer. Your arrows are magical -- woo hoo -- like you're really going to have Weapon Focus on a specific weapon and not also buy a +1 of that weapon?? That first level is useless. And the Imbue Arrow ability only works on area spells, so my enthusiasm loses steam there, too.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-27, 12:59 PM
Boring? Flavor is what you make it. A factotum who believed that his abilities came from applying math to the real world, as well as a wizard who thought he learned spells only via obsessive-compulsive rituals have both appeared at my gaming table.

I agree that the individual character is as interesting as the player wants to make them.

However it's the fluff behind the class, not the singular character that I'm disappointed with (and I believe was the idea behind the thread). Compare the Binder to the Factotum and see the difference. Just because you can build a dozen unique and awesome Factotums (which I know you can) the fluff behind the class is "he knows a bit of everything". Boring.

true_shinken
2010-08-27, 01:03 PM
I love the Sorcerer fluff. You have magic in your blood.
But the way 3.5 magic is handled always makes me think twice about using them. It's that broken.

Morithias
2010-08-27, 01:07 PM
The Noble from DCS. Yes I know it's an NPC class, but seriously you'ld think you could give a class that means you're a ruler at least some good powers, instead we get a very weak contact ability that is DM dependent, (seriously how many classes can you name that have an ability that "works when the DM feels like it" without forcing them to use rule 0?), and bardic music. It's basically a bard without bardic knowledge, skills, or spells.

Person_Man
2010-08-27, 01:07 PM
i really wish spellthief would be worth more than a 2 level dip max.
most people only go for a 1 level dip, but with a second i can steal buffs. that means i can take your stoneskin, your bears endurance, your boars strength, yada yada yada

I'm actually of the opinion that the Spellthief is one of the most balanced class in the game, in that your abilities directly depend on your party. If you're playing in a party with casters and/or invocation users, you can take or borrow their spells and spell like abilities. You can essentially do anything that they do. If you're playing in a party without casters, then it's highly likely that everyone is tier 3 or lower anyway, and your Sneak Attack, Skills, UMD, and half-casting should keep you on par with everyone else. Against casters you rock (psionics too, with the Psithief feat). Against non-casters you can use Staggering Strike to debuff and Sneak Attack/Craven/Arcane Strike for bonus damage.

I'll fully admit that some of his mechanics deserve a rewrite - Steal Spell-Like Ability should be level/2 and not level/3. Psithief should be given to you for free at level 2. Discover Spells should be rolled into the core Steal Spell ability. Steal Spell Resistance should be a bit stronger as well. But even as written, it's a pretty good class unless your campaign is filled with nothing but tanks and supernatural ability using enemies.

thompur
2010-08-27, 01:23 PM
Um...in CW there were casterless Paladins and Rangers, IIRC.

I meant CW not UA. Those variants, along with most of the rest of CW sucked.

Pechvarry
2010-08-27, 01:38 PM
Gatecrasher

Manual of the Planes also had the cool-but-underwhelming Planar Champion while 3.5's Planar Handbook gave us the Doomlord. The first allows even full BAB melee to planeshift! Hope you don't mind sucking at just about everything in return. The 2nd allows for some super alignment stretching (good-aligned agents of atrophy) but is more than a little meh as a class.

Noodles2375
2010-08-27, 02:20 PM
I really like the flavor of the divine mind, this character who tries to emulate/commune with a deity through psionic power.

The crunch makes me wants to rip my hairs out. He has Divine Grace but manifesting keyed to wisdom? With 3/4 BAB???

I've played a houserule'd one that had full BAB and casting keyed to Cha, in a one shot and it was actually really fun.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-27, 02:55 PM
Truenamer, obviously. The fluff is quite good and the mechanics are the worst in the game.


I really like the flavor of the divine mind, this character who tries to emulate/commune with a deity through psionic power.

The crunch makes me wants to rip my hairs out. He has Divine Grace but manifesting keyed to wisdom? With 3/4 BAB???

I've played a houserule'd one that had full BAB and casting keyed to Cha, in a one shot and it was actually really fun.
There is no class in 3.5 whose flavor I hate more than the Divine Mind. A Psionic class that can fall?! The Ardent does the "religious psionic" schtick well, both mechanically and flavor-wise. But the Divine Mind is awful, IMO.