Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[SmartAlec]

In reality, night fighting is one of those "flavor" rules to throw a curveball into the games. I, and everyone else I play with, ignores it completely.

I think it's a shame you think this, as I think if you actually try to play with the rule rather than ignore it even when it is there, it's a very interesting rule. It gives players the opportunity to take more risks with closer-ranged deployment than they might have done usually, and results in a slightly different kind of game.

[V'icternus]

And strategic use of Night Fighting rules can be interesting to test out.

Especially in conjunction with special units or specific armies.

I can see the appeal in ignoring it, however.

The meta around here pretty much ignores Dawn of War. :smalltongue:

Especially when teaching new players. It's just overcomplicated to introduce them to the "real" game with Dawn of War. Annihilation is generally the way to go when they just need to use the battle rules for a while and get used to them, letting them get used to their army and decide what works and what doesn't.

[Korias]

I think it's a shame you think this, as I think if you actually try to play with the rule rather than ignore it even when it is there, it's a very interesting rule. It gives players the opportunity to take more risks with closer-ranged deployment than they might have done usually, and results in a slightly different kind of game.

Every time I've attempted to play with Night Fighting in effect, it ends up adding an hour to the game length which puts players in a position where a game sometimes ends when a player has to leave instead of at the conclusion as to see who has completed the most objectives.

As far as "Closer Deployment", how so? You have a deployment zone. You deploy in that. Unless you were to extend the deployment zone, you'd still be stuck on your strip of land rather than closer to the center of the board. I will admit that it's "interesting" but it ultimately doesn't do much to support the game from my perspective. Perhaps if there was a battle report, I'd be able to see what you exactly mean.

[Ninja Chocobo]

As far as "Closer Deployment", how so? You have a deployment zone. You deploy in that. Unless you were to extend the deployment zone, you'd still be stuck on your strip of land rather than closer to the center of the board. I will admit that it's "interesting" but it ultimately doesn't do much to support the game from my perspective. Perhaps if there was a battle report, I'd be able to see what you exactly mean.

In Dawn of War, your deployment zone extends to the centre of the board. Remember?

[Cheesegear]

In Dawn of War, your deployment zone extends to the centre of the board. Remember?

I wouldn't call it extended. Since your opponent still deploys 18" away. The only time it helps is in Seize Ground, with an odd number of objectives so the 'winner' gets to deploy more objectives in his own deployment zone.


So, anyway. You may have missed me and my Battle Reports over the last few weeks. Well, with my brand, spanking-new Wurmcoil Engine (oops, wrong game :smallwink:) Tomb Stalker on my desk, I felt it was time to run a few games with my Necrons, feeling that my Word Bearers aren't really going to get off the ground until The First Heretic comes out and my Lorgar-love (what? He convinces you to kill yourself, then expects you to thank him for it...) goes into full swing.
My Grey Knight obsession died off recently when I saw the Wurmcoil Engine (you guys don't play M:TG do you...).

Anyway, some lessons I've learned playing 4-6 games per week for the last two weeks...

HQ
The Necron Lord is just as good in play as he is on paper. Simply amazing. The WS4 and I4 kind of hurts on an Independent Character, but, when you see a Lord consistently take on Lysander and come out on top, you stop caring. Warscythes, on a S5 model are simply amazing.

Chronometrons are crap. Most of your units have I2, if you win/lose Assault, you're not going to pass your I check most of the time, so, catching them wont really be an issue. Disruption Fields are useless on Lords since you have 2D6 Penetration anyway (you're using a Warscythe, right?).

Phylacteries are actually pretty borderline. If you've got points, why not? But, its probably one of the last things you want to consider. Solar Pulse? Well, as people very recently pointed out, Night Fighting rules don't really exist since nobody plays Dawn of War.

Now, the Veil of Darkness. No. I don't like it. Its too many points (as the Codex is 3rd Ed, your models have a wargear limit, and 60 points is a big chunk of that limit). The Veil is not a Drop Pod or Mycetic Spore, and the Necrons have no way at all to make it reliable.
The only thing that the Veil is good for, is getting your unit out of Assault. As I mentioned, 60 points is kind of a lot. Its better spent on getting more equipment that makes you and your unit better in Assault. Also, the Veil takes your Resurrection Orb away from the rest of your army. Which is a terrible idea.

So, what's good on a Lord? Well, the Warscythe. It's, like...Magic. That is all.

Destroyer Body...That Toughness 6 is amazing. And he still counts as an Independent Character, so can still join units anyway. Can Turbo Boost for a T6 character with a Cover Save 'in the open' for many win times. However, moving like this does take your Res Orb away from the rest of your units. These days I'm taking it every time...What? You can still join him to any unit you want.

Gaze of Flame? Well, your Necrons suck in Assault. The Gaze makes your opponents, well, not suck, but, well, not as good in Assault against you.

Lightning Field? Yes. Yes. Yes. Take your unsaved wounds, hit your enemy anyway. Then stand back on WBB. Use a Res Orb. Lightning Field really comes into its own when dealing with horde-style armies. Or enemies with truckloads of attacks. Your opponent takes hits for every inflicted wound, not one for each of your models. If you've got five Warriors left, and your opponent charges you with Banshees? Guess what? You just took like, 20 wounds. Your opponent's Banshees just took 20 hits. Then you and all your Warriors stand up and 'teleport units' thanks to Resurrection Orb.

...That happened for me. It. Was. Glorious.

Nightmare Shroud is amazing. Since you're running a Warscythe, it's not like you're shooting any other weapon. Use your Destroyer Body, T6, 3+ cover save ridiculousness to get into a good position, then Pulse. Works...More often than it doesn't. When it goes off (and I mean goes off), it wins the game on the second turn. Once, I even won on the first turn due to both me and my opponent pushing our deployments, and the 'Jetbike' movement had him in a good position without Turbo-Boosting...And...Boom.

Phase Shifter is a no brainer. Always take it. T6. 3+ cover, 4+ Invulnerable. You'll notice that if you have an Invulnerable save and Toughness 6 (that makes you better than both Mephiston and a Hive Tyrant, and on par with Swarmlord...sort of), you can't have a Veil of Darkness, and vice versa.
...I really can't see why people take the Veil. Really.

And...That's Wargear. Always take a Resurrection Orb. It means you get up after getting smashed by Lysander, just to smash him back next turn. Screw Eternal Warrior, the Necron Lord just doesn't die in the first place.

You thought one Necron Lord was good? Take two.
"But Cheesegear, then you can't take a C'Ta-"
Shut up. Take two Lords. Maybe then you can find a use for Veil of Darkness since only one of them can have an Invulnerable. :smallwink:
...That being said, that's pretty much the only time you should take a Veil of Darkness.

Speaking of the C'Tan. Deceiver > Nightbringer.

Is Nightbringer worth 20 Necron Warriors? Depends how many Necron Warriors you already have. But, not usually. I wouldn't use him in anything less than 2000 points. However, when the Dark Eldar Codex comes out in force, I'll probably stop using him altogether. Essentially, Nightbringer is just a very, very expensive Wraithlord. And I would prefer 3 Wraithlords. Or 20 Warriors.

Is Deciever worth 17 Necron Warriors...Sometimes. Against a non-Fearless army, a Lord with Nightmare Shroud (and Res Orb) is much, much better. Against a Fearless army, Deceiver is worth his weight in gold (and as a large, all-metal model, he does weigh a bit), since to Assault a C'Tan, you need to pass a Leadership check. And he can force Fearless models to take Morale/Pinning checks.

His Grand Illusion ability is pretty much completely wasted if you're deploying second. Can be helpful if your opponent has Infiltrators, but, the only Infiltrators that I was worried about in all the games I played over the last two weeks were Striking Scorpions, since they're rather good in Assault.
Deceiver's Dread ability is...Marginal. At best. There aren't many times that the Necrons are going to be the ones initiating Assault. And, if they are, they'd better be doing it with Flayed Ones. Which have the same ability, except are Necrons, and cost less points. To afford more Necrons.

In short; C'Tan are over-rated. Both of them. C'Tan can do really well, or pretty piss-poor. Depending on how good your opponent is at killing Monstrous Creatures. Necron Lords though, are consistent.

Elites
First, and I'll say this straight off the bat. Pariahs. Are. That. Good. I used to think they were crap (on paper, mind) because they weren't Necrons. Actually playing Necrons for the last two weeks, its hard to stay competitive in larger games without them.

Yes, they're expensive. I didn't take them in less than 1500 points. But, 1500+? They're kind of a must. They shut down psykers. Read the previous sentence again. One more time. Good. They also grant Fearless to your Necron Lord. Again, this is a sentence you should read two or three more times.

Speaking of, Pariahs are essentially 10 more Necron Lords in regards to combat capability. They are death to Hammernators. And Toughness 5, 3+ save keeps them alive for a long, long time. I should know. I run Bikes.

These guys, when in proper numbers, cost just as much as a C'Tan, but don't steal your Lord (read; Ressurection Orb) slots. When you do actually run a Necron Lord with them, they will stomp an roll over anything and everything in the game short of a Wraithlord. And even then, it only takes two or three rounds, instead of one. Lightning Field. Gaze of Flame. Veil of Darkness doesn't work with Pariahs. But, Nightmare Shroud does. Holy crap. Does it ever.

Now. What I've learned about Pariahs, is that, in fact, yes, they are a blunt instrument. There is no finesse to using them. You march them up the field and watch them go to town.
Where there is finesse, however, is what the rest of your army is doing, because you just know that your opponent is going to throw and and all S7, AP3 - or better - weapons that they own at them. You have to stop this happening.

Immortals...They're not Pariahs. I'll tell you right now. If you absolutely must run a Necron Lord with a Veil of Darkness, keep ignoring this unit and run Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers instead (see what I did there).
Immortals don't do anything that Warriors don't do (except kill Fire Warriors), and Destroyers do the same thing, better, faster, and for less points. Neither are Troops. The times I ran them, I wasn't too impressed. They're just another shooty unit, in a shooty army.

Onto Flayed Ones...Quite often, I found that I could spend more on these guys, and less on Warriors. Since with enough Res Orbs, your Warriors are going to last quite some time if you look after them properly. Flayed Ones also have the most useful effect of the Deceiver built right into them, and, as I mentioned in the Deceiver part, they cost less points, and are Necrons.
...They also Infiltrate. I <Heart> Infiltrate. Did you know? Have you ever read anything I've ever written, ever?

Typically, I ran two units of seven (and one unit of Pariahs). Or one unit of ten in lower point games. Often, I found myself Turbo-Boosting my Lord and joining the Flayed Ones on the first turn, bringing his Gaze of Flame and Warscythe with him. Disruption Fields can be good. But the points start to add up. I'll talk more on Disruption Fields later.

Necron Warriors
Look, you need lots of Warriors. Its just a simple, straight fact of the Necron army. However, if you're taking as many Troops as you should be taking; 1 + (Total Points/500), this barely becomes even a problem. Just for shots and goggles, for one game, I ran two units of 20 Warriors, with a Lord with Res Orb in the middle, and a couple of other things.

You know what? Warriors don't die when you have enough of them - and a Resurrection Orb. Everything else might die. But, your Warriors, standing on an objective, wont.

I know you end up having 30 or 40+ of the same model. But, you either suck it up, or see it for the massive conversion opportunity that it is. WHFB Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts have the same problem with their units. If you don't like converting, you soon will.

Fast Attack
Now, Wraiths...I like them, I like them a lot. 3+ save. 3+ Invulnerable. S6, I6, with 3 Attacks each. Their ability to simply ignore terrain and come with Frag Grenades, as well as their relative cheapness, and coming in as Necrons...They're...ARGH! Their one downside is that they don't have Power Weapons, and they need Power Weapons, but, honestly, if they did, they'd be broken. By their statline and abilities - and Frag Grenades - they rock the house all over Hammernators for roughly the same cost...But. No. Power Weapons...RAGE!

No. Seriously. If they had Power Weapons, they'd be broken. I can see why they don't have Power Weapons. Wraiths, however, are to the Necron Lord as Tyrant Guard are to Hive Tyrants. Wraiths take hits for the Lord (and don't die. Thanks 3+ Invulnerable!), and soften up the target in Assault before the Lord strikes down whatever's left.

Destroyers are Immortals on Jetbikes with better guns. 'Nuff said.

Scarab Swarms, man. Scarab Swarms are where its at. I'll tell you why you take Scarab Swarms...
1. Disruption Fields are not Grenades. Disruption Fields turn your attacks into Gauss weapons (against vehicles). RAWr!.
2. WS2 doesn't matter because you hit vehicles on static numbers
3. Scarab Swarms have 3 attacks each.

Quite literally, Scarabs eat vehicles. Maybe that's not enough for you.
Scarabs move as Jetbikes, so can Turbo-Boost. Hang on, as a small target, Scarab Swarms get +1 to their cover saves. What's that? You've just moved 24" and have a 2+ cover save to boot? And (should be) in range to charge your opponent's vehicles next turn and eat it for lunch?

Not only do Scarabs rape vehicles, they can also get there. In relative safety too! What's that? A Necron Lord on Destroyer Body moves just as fast and is an Independent Character and can join Swarms and not die in lower point games?

Vulnerable to Blasts? Isn't really a problem. You've got a 2+ cover save.
Template weapons, I can count the number of S6+ Template weapons in the game on one hand. Template weapons (like Blasts) only cause a static amount of hits. I'm much more worried about mass Bolter fire than I am about a Flamer template.
You've only got five bases? You only take five hits. You'll probably end up taking about four wounds. That's only one base of Scarabs. Bolters, on the other hand? Take, like, 14 hits. Same strength. However, there's that 2+ cover save I was talking about.

Oh, if that wasn't enough, remember the 'Intervening Models = Cover Saves' rule? Remember how Pariahs love cover saves...Now you're getting it!

Scarab Swarms are why I didn't normally take Wraiths. They're that good. They give semi-permanent saves to whatever's behind them (valuable Necrons or Pariahs), serve as lots and lots of wounds to soak for a fast Necron Lord, and like to munch vehicles.

...And you get three bases everytime you buy a Warrior box. GW wants you to use Scarabs (7 in the Battleforce!). So do it!

Heavy Support
Tomb Spyders are amazing. Once upon a time, Winterwind tried to fake me out on Tomb Spyders. However, I looked at the Multiple Toughness Unit rules many times. And the rules stipulate models, not wounds. Since a Tomb Spyder and one base of Scarabs are one 'model' each, no majority exists, and you now have T6 Scarabs. Enjoy. However, once you create more than one base, your Tomb Spyder turns into T3. Which isn't so hot.

Tomb Spyders are good for when your whole unit just got its arse handed to them by Banshees, but, a Res Orb, in conjunction with a Tomb Spyder fixes everything.

However, more often than not, I found myself taking...

Heavy Destroyers. Immortals on Jetbikes with Lascannons. This is my First-Turn Tank-Kill.

And, now, possibly the most over-rated thing in the game, with the exception of Terminators (yes, regular Terminators)...

The Monolith.
Okay, its really, really hard to kill. But, honestly, that's all it has going for it. That, and the fact that it 'pushes' models when it Deep Strikes (keep in mind that unlike Drop Pods and Spores, a Monolith is not immune to terrain).

Gauss Flux Arc...Is pretty bad. It shoots D6 shots at every enemy unit within 12". That's not very far. D6 shots isn't very many. And its only as good as Immortal shots. And, as I've previously mentioned, Immortals aren't that good. Hooray, you shot a unit with 1 Gauss Blaster attack. That's worse than an Immortal. Who gets 2 shots. At 24".

Now, the Power Matrix.
The Particle Whip...Kind of sucks. It works like a WHFB weapon where the center of the weapon is AP1, the rest is AP3. The thing doesn't even kill Terminators. Now, against vehicles, if it lands off-center, like Blast weapons are wont to do, not only is it not AP1, its also half strength. Use Heavy Destroyers to kill tanks...And Terminators. And Things with Feel No Pain.

Against Infantry...Cover saves. Just...Cover Saves. That's all your opponent needs.

Or, the Monolith teleports in Reserves. It must. It has no choice. Meaning you don't get to fire the Particle Whip, and you don't get to do the next thing...

An extra WBB roll for any unit that teleports to it. However, they must be within 18", so that's kind of bad. Since the ones that probably most need the extra WBB roll are in your enemy's DZ on an objective.

This extra WBB roll is what you take Monoliths for. Not the funky weapons. Not the extremely hard-to-killness (although that does help for this purpose). You take Monoliths for extra WBB rolls. If you're firing the Particle Whip when you have any Necrons 'on the ground', you're doing it wrong. You need your Necrons to survive.

Personally, I never felt like I needed more than one. I played with two a couple of times, but, that did come at the expense of Necrons and I Phased Out twice because of it. And I'm told by a Necron player who knows a lot more than I do that three Monoliths is just right out of the question. Only an idiot would do such a thing in a competitive environment. If you're playing 12 year-old newbs who play AoBR who think Terminators are the best thing ever, then go ahead, play with three.

"3 Monoliths and a C'Tan? Don't do it. You stupid kid." Endquote. That's the advice that was given to me, and its the advice I'm giving to you if you're reading this.

Now...The Prize. The Wurmcoil (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/ts15sm.jpg) Engine (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qTxgf8uqjbQ/TGrU_ANqd8I/AAAAAAAAKpA/RVG0WkGFxgg/s1600/Scars+Mirrodin+Wurmcoil+Engine.jpg)! The thing that made me start playing Necrons in the first place. Okay, maybe you guys don't run in the same crowds that I do, and you prefer to call it the Tomb Stalker (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/tstalker.pdf). I bought one the moment I saw it, and spent the following week and a half wetting myself in anticipation until it arrived in my box. No, that's no a euphemism. I have a PO Box.

In the games that I was allowed to play with this (see the Experimental Rules stamp? That means if my opponents don't like it, they can fully and rightfully tell me to get f*d).

1. Its a Monstrous Creature, immune to the Monstrous Creature weakness of Poison (but not Rending :smallfrown:).
2. Its Fearless
3. It has 4(6) attacks. And Hit & Run for massive Brokenness. Its an Assault Monster, in the Necron army. Fleet isn't bad either. :smallwink:

...I plan to get more. Its what a Carnfiex wishes it was. For less points than a Monolith? 5 Wounds at T7? Cheaper than 4 (and 4 is not a high number) Destroyers (Remember, blast weapons only ever do one hit vs. MCs, as opposed to lots vs. many bases)?

Sign me up. Again. Once more.

TL;DR
Necrons have not been nerfed. The game, itself has been nerfed. You just can't run 3 Monoliths and a C'Tan anymore and expect to win. Glancing Hits have been nerfed. Not Necrons themselves. But, as I've said once or twice before, Glancing Hits are not bad.

As far as I'm concerned, Necrons just need more tactical planning than they used to. You've got a greater reliance on Warriors than you used to. But, who cares? They're one of the best Troop units in the game thanks to WBB, and having better guns than Bolters. What's that? The Codex, in its design encourages you to take more Troops now? And you're complaining?

They suck in Assault, sure. Most shooty armies do. Quit your whinging. Buy a Tomb Stalker. :smallamused:

I need to name my Necron Lord. Since Necrons seem to run on Imperial Designations; 'Firesight Sovereign' sounded pretty awesome...Someone suggest something awesome.

[banjo1985]

Nice round up on Necrons Cheesegear, I found the Tomb Stalker review especially useful. I was considering getting one, but now I think I'm going to order two. :smallamused:

I've just picked up some Flayed Ones as I baulked at the price of Pariahs, hopefully they'll give my Cron's a bit more early game impact. I still haven't worked out how to best utilise my Heavy Destroyers though, they still seem to take out one tank then get picked off. Maybe some scarab-screens will help with that, though I like to run 10 Destroyers If I can which limits my scarabs a bit.

Necron's are about the only army where it makes good sense to take two HQ's, as Lords are awesome as you say. I run a Destroyer body to keep up with my fast stuff and sit a normal lord with an orb in the middle of my warriors. It works until they get into combat and the unit with the Lord in flees...maybe that's what I need Pariahs for.

As for Lord names, something malevolent would be good, Darksun-something or whatever...I just call mine Arnie. :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

I need to name my Necron Lord. Since Necrons seem to run on Imperial Designations; 'Firesight Sovereign' sounded pretty awesome...Someone suggest something awesome.

I suggest Royal Leadboots of Dancing!

Also, i gotta say i think the Tomb stalker looks a little bit unfair for its point cost.

[banjo1985]

Also, i gotta say i think the Tomb stalker looks a little bit unfair for its point cost.

195 points is a lot to pay for one model, even if it is great. Hit and Run seems to be the one thing which really stands out as a bit much, if anything. DSing something of that size base isn't very easy, so I'd guess they'll start on the table in most games. Like most close-sombat monsters, if you can kill it before it gets to you then you're okay. Without an invulnerable save it's not going to be too difficult to do that to a Tomb Stalker unless it's covered well. They're powerful, but I'm not sure they're too broken.

Mind you, once I've used them in a few games I might feel differently. :smalltongue:

[Winterwind]

Thanks a lot, Cheesegear, that was very interesting to read. I'll make sure to relay it to my Necrons-playing friend, too. :smallsmile:


My Grey Knight obsession died off recently when I saw the Wurmcoil Engine (you guys don't play M:TG do you...).I do, but I haven't been really keeping up with new releases since early Zendikar. *checks* (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wurmcoil%20engine) Oh, this one. Yeah, I've heard of it. Cute. :smallsmile:


Then you and all your Warriors stand up and 'teleport units' thanks to Resurrection Orb.You just have to really, really hope you are going to be completely wiped out. Because if even a single model of yours remains standing, you will lose combat (presumably by a lot, so your Ld10 isn't going to save you), break, and then (because of your measly I2) be caught up with and destroyed. And not even a Resurrection Orb can give you a WBB when that happens - anything overrun after breaking is dead, no matter what.

Which brings me to the question of how...
You know what? Warriors don't die when you have enough of them - and a Resurrection Orb. Everything else might die. But, your Warriors, standing on an objective, wont....you managed to prevent your opponents from sending some assault unit into one of your big Warrior units, breaking it in combat and then destroying it immediately?

Because this is why people are trying to minimize their Necron number and keeping their Necrons out of the game for as long as possible: Since Necron Warriors are so incredibly easily destroyed (permanently) via close combat, they become a liability.


Tomb Spyders are amazing. Once upon a time, Winterwind tried to fake me out on Tomb Spyders. However, I looked at the Multiple Toughness Unit rules many times. And the rules stipulate models, not wounds. Since a Tomb Spyder and one base of Scarabs are one 'model' each, no majority exists, and you now have T6 Scarabs. Enjoy. However, once you create more than one base, your Tomb Spyder turns into T3. Which isn't so hot.But... this is exactly what I said back then... :smallfrown:


As far as I'm concerned, Necrons just need more tactical planning than they used to. You've got a greater reliance on Warriors than you used to. But, who cares? They're one of the best Troop units in the game thanks to WBB, and having better guns than Bolters. What's that? The Codex, in its design encourages you to take more Troops now? And you're complaining?

They suck in Assault, sure. Most shooty armies do. Quit your whinging. Buy a Tomb Stalker. :smallamused:Well, the real nerf to Necrons comes from breaking tests being modified by how much you lost combat, and the rules explicitly denying you any kind of WBB if your unit gets destroyed by that. From what I hear, this is the one thing Necrons struggle with - their units perpetually breaking and being destroyed in assault.

So, how did you work around this problem? :smallsmile:


195 points is a lot to pay for one model, even if it is great. Hit and Run seems to be the one thing which really stands out as a bit much, if anything. DSing something of that size base isn't very easy, so I'd guess they'll start on the table in most games. Like most close-sombat monsters, if you can kill it before it gets to you then you're okay. Without an invulnerable save it's not going to be too difficult to do that to a Tomb Stalker unless it's covered well.But all of this applies to every other big, costly model, and they aren't nearly as effective for their points. I mean, this thing is cheaper than a Trygon or Mawloc, probably cheaper than most Carnifexes, too - and I think it's probably better than any of them. Not only that, but it benefits the Necron codex more than any of those benefit the Tyranids (the Tyranids have other things that fulfill pretty much the same role, for the Necrons, this is quite new).

So, I'm with lord_khaine here, that thing looks awfully cheap for what it does.

[Cheesegear]

Nice round up on Necrons Cheesegear, I found the Tomb Stalker review especially useful. I was considering getting one, but now I think I'm going to order two. :smallamused:

When I get paid next, I'm getting another one. The 'experimental rules' on them hurts sometimes when your opponent says 'No!', but, if he's silly enough to say 'Yes'...Then, its his own fault.


I've just picked up some Flayed Ones as I baulked at the price of Pariahs

Well, to be honest, a lot of my models were proxied. Because I've only been with them a few weeks. But, I'll be getting Pariahs. No joke. Nightmare Shroud, and Pariahs = Win on Turn 2.

Or, at least makes the game significantly easier. The only time Nightmare Shroud doesn't work is if you're playing against Mechanised. But, if your opponent is playing a Mechanised List, Necrons have the advantage there anyway, since to Necrons, all vehicles have the same AV. 1 in 6. Except for in any case where it is less.

Nightmare Shroud also doesn't particularly work against Fearless units, but Flayed Ones do.


I still haven't worked out how to best utilise my Heavy Destroyers though, they still seem to take out one tank then get picked off.

Depends what tank you're taking out. If you're Destroying or Weapon Destroying or Crew Shaken-ing any vehicle with a weapon that has a 'main gun' of S8 or more, your Heavy-Ds are doing their job.


Maybe some scarab-screens will help with that

Scarab Screens are the best. Did you also know that they're Fearless? And as such pass it onto a Necron Lord? :smallamused:


As for Lord names, something malevolent would be good, Darksun-

Designation: Shattersun.
...The first thing he does when he enters your system is to put out your Sun. The Necrons do that.

[Ninja Chocobo]

When I get paid next, I'm getting another one. The 'experimental rules' on them hurts sometimes when your opponent says 'No!', but, if he's silly enough to say 'Yes'...Then, its his own fault.

If you get to use FW rules so does your opponent.
How long will your army last against 6+ Hades Breaching Drills?

[Psychotic]

If you get to use FW rules so does your opponent.
How long will your army last against 6+ Hades Breaching Drills?

Personally, I think most of Forgeworld's rules are completely balanced with exception of one. The Lucius Pattern Drop Pod. Nothing says obscene killing like a a Furioso or Death Company Dreadnought hitting the ground and scything through a dozen infantry without any chance of return fire.

[Winterwind]

Cheesegear, I wrote a reply to you just as you made your last post (in case you missed that :smallwink:). If not, well, just saying that I am genuinely curious how you prevented your Necron Warriors from being overrun - my question regarding that was not meant to be sarcastic or disbelieving, I really do conclude you managed to prevent that from happening somehow, and would be dearly interested in hearing how. :smallsmile:


Personally, I think most of Forgeworld's rules are completely balanced with exception of one. The Lucius Pattern Drop Pod. Nothing says obscene killing like a a Furioso or Death Company Dreadnought hitting the ground and scything through a dozen infantry without any chance of return fire.Well, there are also those cheap-as-dirt stationary lascannon turrets, that allow you to mass up anti-tank weapons basically for free.

But overall, from what I've seen and heard, I'm inclined to agree, most of it seems fairly balanced. I may be missing something about the aforementioned Hades Breaching Drill, but it doesn't seem that overpowered for its points to me. It's just a single melta-delivery system that would be able to ram tanks into oblivion if it lived that long, which it won't, that has to come from reserve and allows an infantry squad to appear one turn after it does (in other words, late and with the enemy knowing when it's coming).

[DaedalusMkV]

Personally, I think most of Forgeworld's rules are completely balanced with exception of one. The Lucius Pattern Drop Pod. Nothing says obscene killing like a a Furioso or Death Company Dreadnought hitting the ground and scything through a dozen infantry without any chance of return fire.
Allow me to introduce you to the Chaos Dread Claw, the most broken thing in the entirety of Warhammer 40k. Imagine, if you will, a chaos army made up of 3 Dreadnaughts with 4 attacks each (5 when charging, so in other words Furiosos for a fair chunk less points), two very combatty Chaos Lords and 5 decent sized squads of Khorne Berzerkers. Now, imagine them deploying out of Drop Pods. Scary, right, but not too horrible because you get a chance to shoot them before they kill you. Now imagine they can assault out of those Drop Pods. Yeah, now we're in Nightmareville and you're losing half of your army on turn 1. Now, imagine that after the aforementioned slaughter you've managed to outmaneuver them and given yourself a bit of distance to take them down with. Suddenly, they get back in their Pods, while new ones start landing to keep up the pressure. Then, on turn three all of the initial assault wave re-deep-strike and assault the pitiful remains of your army. Without needing to worry about Scatter because of all the Icons on the ground. All for 5 (10? Eh.) more points than a Loyalist 'Pod. The only downside? You can't give them to Daemon Princes. Oh, and they don't come with Storm Bolters...

There's also the old Gargantuan Creature rules, that required you to hit the Heirophant with lover a dozen Lascannon shots before you were even able to start on its 8 T9 wounds, but that's thankfully behind us now, never to return.

I guess my point is, most Forge World is pretty good but you really, really have to know what you're letting your opponent use before you let them use it. And, if you want to use FW stuff make sure that your opponent knows what they're okaying. Otherwise we get the hypothetical situation above, and nobody wants to play a game like that.

[Tren]

Now imagine they can assault out of those Drop Pods. Yeah, now we're in Nightmareville and you're losing half of your army on turn 1.

I call hyper-shenanigans on your Chaos opponent. For one, Dreadclaws are neither open-topped, nor Assault vehicles. Nobody should be doing any assaulting out of them.

Second, they do not have Drop Pod Assault like loyalist pods. A Dreadclaw must go into reserves, and only after it becomes available does it "enter play using the Drop Pod rules." While you might make an argument that this includes Drop Pod Assault, the Dreadclaw's own rules are pretty explicit the Claw goes in reserve and only uses the Drop Pod rules after it becomes available from reserves (i.e. turn 2 or later). Also, I'm fairly sure the new SM codex wasn't even out when the most recent Dreadclaw rules were published in IA:A, which should give you some context as far as their intent.

Third, the Dreadclaw is actually 30pts more expensive than a loyalist drop pod.

[Cheesegear]

Which brings me to the question of how......you managed to prevent your opponents from sending some assault unit into one of your big Warrior units, breaking it in combat and then destroying it immediately?

...Really? This is a question? :smallconfused:
The same way that Tau do it. Finding the opponents' Assault units and shooting the living Hell out of them before they get to you.

That, and Scarab Swarms. Fearless. Cheap(ish). Lots of wounds. Sounds like a tar pit to me.


Because this is why people are trying to minimize their Necron number and keeping their Necrons out of the game for as long as possible: Since Necron Warriors are so incredibly easily destroyed (permanently) via close combat, they become a liability.

I think that
a) Minimising your Necron count is the worst thing you can do. No. Really. I played with two Monoliths, it ate lots of points. I got Phased Out pretty much every time. When you minimise your Necron count, you minimise your Phase Out count. I can't see the benefits to this.

b) Keeping your models out of the game is not only a d* move, but, it also doesn't help you win. You're stalling the game. Congrats on your Draw. Me? I like winning. If you don't have lots and lots of models on the board, while your opponent does, you lose.

For me, instead of '1+(Points/500)' Troop units, I went with 2+[...]. And units of 10. 36-40 Warriors in 1000 points. Use Scarabs and a Destroyer Lord to kill tanks.

The example I listed where I had two units of 20 was only one game. And I did find it annoying to have all my eggs in two baskets. I didn't do after that one game.


So, how did you work around this problem?

I don't see why the Necrons are so special. This 'problem' applies to every single army in the game. Necrons deal with it the same way everyone else does, by throwing lots of shooty-weapons fire around. Or, having their own units in the form of Flayed Ones, Pariahs and Scarab Swarms.

"Wow, Cheesegear sure does mention Scarab Swarms a lot."

Thanks Captain Obvious. I mention Scarab Swarms a lot because they save my bacon. And I like bacon. What I like even more about Scarab Swarms, is that they're basically free, in regards to currency.
When you buy 2 Battleforces (you should), you've got 14 bases of Scarabs. Yes, that is 2-3 units of meat shields and 2+ cover saving tank killers.

Your opponent Assaults the Scarabs. Thanks to Fearless, is tied up for a turn or two. Then comes out to a bunch of Gauss weapons in the face. No Necrons were harmed in this maneuver.

Use your Necron Lord and Pariahs. Gaze of Flame + Pariahs = Ld6. Pariahs always win.

Necrons are bad in Assault. Sure, why not? They're better than Tau in Assault. They're ever so slightly better than Imperial Guard. The only thing that I've been worried about are units with lots and lots of attacks (Striking Scorpions, Orks, Berzerkers, etc.) and units with mass Power Weapons (only Banshees and LCATs spring to mind).

Anything other than that, T4 and a 3+ save goes a fair way. Or maybe you don't like MEQs with something better than FNP?

Invest in Tomb Stalkers.


So, I'm with lord_khaine here, that thing looks awfully cheap for what it does.

Yep.


If you get to use FW rules so does your opponent.
How long will your army last against 6+ Hades Breaching Drills?

The thing about Forgeworld rules is that your opponent needs to
a) Have the rules in the first place
b) Have a list where he uses said units

More importantly, they need the models. Because a lot of Imperial Armour is broken (if everyone is broken, then no-one is...Except Tau, 'cause theirs suck), no-one will let you proxy anything from there. And I don't know too many people who buy actual Forgeworld models...

[Winterwind]

...Really? This is a question? :smallconfused:
The same way that Tau do it. Finding the opponents' Assault units and shooting the living Hell out of them before they get to you.

That, and Scarab Swarms. Fearless. Cheap(ish). Lots of wounds. Sounds like a tar pit to me....okay, sounds simple enough (in principle, not necessarily execution). :smallbiggrin:


I think that
a) Minimising your Necron count is the worst thing you can do. No. Really. I played with two Monoliths, it ate lots of points. I got Phased Out pretty much every time. When you minimise your Necron count, you minimise your Phase Out count. I can't see the benefits to this.

b) Keeping your models out of the game is not only a d* move, but, it also doesn't help you win. You're stalling the game. Congrats on your Draw. Me? I like winning. If you don't have lots and lots of models on the board, while your opponent does, you lose.By what I've been told, the idea is to go for a last turn victory. Prevent Phase Out by never presenting enough models to the opponent for Phase Out to be possible, and then move your fast units onto the objectives at the very last turn.

Or something like that.

Hey, I'm not a proponent of that strategy, either, and it's definitely not how I would be playing Necrons myself. :smallwink:


I don't see why the Necrons are so special. This 'problem' applies to every single army in the game. Necrons deal with it the same way everyone else does, by throwing lots of shooty-weapons fire around. Or, having their own units in the form of Flayed Ones, Pariahs and Scarab Swarms.Other armies don't pay with points and the Phase-Out rule for something that gets completely overridden by being overrun (WBB), while at the same time being bad in assault. :smallwink:

Still, true enough. I'll make sure to relay all of this, and thank you for your answers. :smallsmile:

[MountainKing]

Okay, I've tried arguing it out with a friend of mine, but he insists (somehow) that Scarabs are terrible tankhunters in reality, and that they're only good in theory. He's mentioned blast and template weapons, in particular template weapons from vehicles which deal two hits instead of one due to vulnerability, and ignores the fact that it's actually not that hard to roll at least ONE glance with a minimum of 9 attacks. :smallannoyed: SO, I'm going to do something I normally would never, ever do (it actually makes me kind of ill to do it :smalltongue:).

Would one of you more mathematical persons be willing to produce evidence showing the probability that Scarabs are awesome tankhunters? Particularly useful as well would be if said mathematics provided for the target being an Eldar tank with holofields, or if the vehicle has moved more than six inches.

[Winterwind]

Ooof... those are some harsh stipulations, because under such severe conditions, they aren't that good anymore. :smallfrown:

If you have 10 Scarab Swarm bases that provides you with 30 attacks. If the target has moved so much, 5 of those will hit on average, and 5/6 (so about one) will glance. A glance has a 1/2 chance to merely shake the crew (enough if it's a combat tank, probably not really meaningful if it's a transport), 1/6 to stun it (add this to the chance to shake if it has Extra Armour or some equivalent thereof, like Soulstones), and 1/3 to cause some permanent damage. Against an Eldar Vehicle with Soulstones and Holofield, a glance only has a 1/9 chance to do permanent damage and will merely shake it otherwise, so your chances to do permanent damage are pretty bad then.

If the vehicle has moved less, however, the effectiveness of the Scarabs increases rapidly, and for the same reason I'd rather use Scarabs mostly against targets that have done that instead.

If the vehicle has merely moved 6" or less, you will hit thrice as often, so end up with 2.5 glances on average; against anything without Holofields, that's more likely than not (63.7%, to be precise) to cause permanent damage, with a fair chance of doing so twice.

If the vehicle has not moved, you will score 5 glances on average. That's about two permanent damages inflicted on average, and a 60.2% chance probability to stun the crew if the vehicle has no Extra Armour or equivalent - in other words, the vehicle is thoroughly screwed.
Holofields, impressively enough, still reduce the amount of permanent damage done to a mere 0.56 average glances that do permanent damage, so a vehicle with Soulstones and Holofield ending up merely shaken is only barely lower than the probability for it suffering some permanent damage.

...wow, I never fully realized just how awesome Holofields truly are until now. :smalleek:

Though, I should put this in some relation - the only reason why they appear so powerful here is because Scarabs only inflict glances. Holofields are far more effective in negating glances than actual penetrating hits. Which kinda means that Eldar vehicles are specifically designed to counter Scarabs as tank-hunters...

So, well, altogether I have to say, Scarabs are good tank hunters, but only against non-fast, non-holofielded vehicles. But then, expecting anything to be good in killing fast, holofielded vehicles via melee is demanding a bit much, and against targets where close combat tank-hunting is more of a viable strategy, they perform formidably.

EDIT: Oh, and if you want to do it yourself: Against a vehicle that has moved more than 6", 1/36 of your attacks glances on average, against one that has moved 6" or less, it's 1/12 of your attacks, and against one that hasn't moved at all, it's 1/6. Just multiply that with your total number of attacks, and you'll know how many glances you can expect on average.

[Shas aia Toriia]

And I don't know too many people who buy actual Forgeworld models...

Compare to this to the number of people who would like to buy actual Forgeworld models.

[Cheesegear]

If you have 10 Scarab Swarm bases that provides you with 30 attacks.

Lies. Scrabs will always be charging vehicles. They have four attacks each. Being a vehicle, Scarabs disengage. Repeat. Second, being able to get other glances fairly easily from shooting (from everything else in the army), the vehicle can often be Immobilised for auto-hits.

I'm AFB right now, I can't remember if Shaken also allows auto-hits, but those things are easy to get via shooting before you Assault.


So, well, altogether I have to say, Scarabs are good tank hunters, but only against non-fast, non-holofielded vehicles

They're also good against Walkers. Most 'swarm' units can barely scratch a Dreadnought. Scarabs are both Fearless to tarpit a Walker, and have ways to deal some damage at least.

[Winterwind]

Lies. Scrabs will always be charging vehicles. They have four attacks each. Being a vehicle, Scarabs disengage. Repeat. Ohhh, right. Completely forgot that. Sorry, I've obviously been playing Fantasy for too long. :smallredface:

In that case, increase all the aforementioned calculations by a factor of 4/3.

So, 10/9 glances against a fast moving vehicle,
10/3 against a 6" or less moving one, and
20/3 against an immobile one.

That translates to 0.37 permanently damaging glances against a fast moving vehicle,
1.11 against a 6" or less moving one, and
2.22 against an immobile one.

All on average.


Second, being able to get other glances fairly easily from shooting (from everything else in the army), the vehicle can often be Immobilised for auto-hits.When a vehicle has moved, and then is Immobilized, is it still more difficult to hit in the same turn? In other words, would the Scarabs have to wait for the next turn when the vehicle wouldn't have moved due to being Immobilised? (Sorry, away from book)

[Cheesegear]

Okay, I've tried arguing it out with a friend of mine, but he insists (somehow) that Scarabs are terrible tankhunters in reality, and that they're only good in theory. He's mentioned blast and template weapons, in particular template weapons from vehicles which deal two hits instead of one due to vulnerability, and ignores the fact that it's actually not that hard to roll at least ONE glance with a minimum of 9 attacks. :smallannoyed: SO, I'm going to do something I normally would never, ever do (it actually makes me kind of ill to do it :smalltongue:).

Well, this is all wrong. They're not good in theory, but excellent in-game. You've got it backwards.

Scarabs take extra wounds. Not extra hits. As I've said quite a few times now, Blast and Template weapons only cause a static number of hits. Which can be reduced by spreading out your models.

Second, even with extra wounds-taking, they have three wounds each.
Hooray! Your opponent scores two (four) wounds with a Flamer template... That's only one base. Who cares?

Third, Scarabs are Fearless. Your opponent can shoot them as much as he likes.

Last, 2+ cover saves (for at least one turn, and then on your second turn its Assault time). And granting everyone behind them (Pariahs, Flayed Ones, Destroyers) a 4+ cover save.

Scarabs are amazing. If he's shooting his S8+, Large Blast tank cannons at your swarms, you should let him (2+ cover save...In the open). Because that means he's not shooting your Necrons.

[Ninja Chocobo]

The Hades Breaching Drill is the least balanced item in 40k.
50 points gets you a 12" Devil Dog that Deep Strikes. When it DSs you get a large blast that's 10/1 Melta on anything under the template. It destroys terrain. It gets a S10 Melta hit on anything it Rams. They must be accompanied by Veterans, who come up from the place where it Deep Struck.
All this for fifty points. Even the Big Squiggoth (S7 T6 W4 Monstrous Creature, also 50pts) isn't as bad.

[Winterwind]

The Hades Breaching Drill is the least balanced item in 40k.
50 points gets you a 12" Devil Dog that Deep Strikes. When it DSs you get a large blast that's 10/1 Melta on anything under the template. It destroys terrain. It gets a S10 Melta hit on anything it Rams. They must be accompanied by Veterans, who come up from the place where it Deep Struck.
All this for fifty points. Even the Big Squiggoth (S7 T6 W4 Monstrous Creature, also 50pts) isn't as bad.Oh. The rules I'd found online for that thing must have been outdated, or something, because they only specified a regular melta, not one using any sort of template.

Okay, that is nasty, then. :smalleek:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Finally got a game in, there being room on the free university bus into the city for once.

1500 points, blood angels vs chaos daemons.

The armies

Angels Encarmine 4th company

Brother Libriarian Zacharias with jump pack
Honour guard with jump packs, 2 storm shields, thunder hammer, company banner

Sanguinary priest Antonio on bike

10 assault marines with 2 flamers, power fist and hand flamer
10 assault marines with 2 melta guns, power axe and infernus pistol
10 tactical marinse, lascannon, plasma gun, power fist and storm bolter
10 tactical marines, plasma cannon, plasma gun, power fist and bolter

5 devastators, 4 missile launchers

The daemons
bloodthirster
the masque
Skulltaker on juggernaut

3 flamers
8 bloodcrushers


8 bloodletters
6 daemonettes
9 horrors with bolt and changeling

daemon prince (no idea what he had, never showed up)



I was playing the top tournament winning player, but he'd only started daemons recently and had to be told by another daemon player that the masque couldn't join the daemonettes, not that it ended up mattering.

We roll for battle missions. I end up having a single objective in the center and have to protect it. So I just throw everyone into the middle, combat squading the metal jump packers all into one unit and the lascannon into its own unit. I got pretty lucky with the red first, getting it on the honour guard (redundant), devastators (whoo!), the large tactical marine squad (who had a priest anyway). But I still got it a lot.

He wins for first turn and decides to take it. The bloodthirster, horrors, bloodcrushers and flamers all come down. The bloodthirster runs behind some trees, the horrors shoot the devastators, killing the sergeant with the AP 1 shot but feel no pain protecting the rocket launchers. Then the flamers fire into the 10 strong assault marine squad and wipe it out.

Loosing a whole squad this early hurt, and I had blood crushers and a bloodthirster to deal with. I sent the honour guard, librarian and melta squad off to fight the bloodcrushers and managed to kill one and a half with my shooting. I also sent an assault combat squad and a tactical combat squad after the flamers, killing two with their bolt pistols. My devastators couldn't see the bloodthirster due to the trees and the bloodcrushers would get a cover save, so they fired four frag missiles into the horrors, killing all but the one with bolt.

In assault I managed to finish off the flamers with the tactical squad and the melta gun squad even managed to kill skulltaker, who only killed one in return. The librarian and honour guard managed to kill two bloodcrushers, but then the remainder managed to cut down any honour guard not lucky enough to be carrying a storm shield, drawing the combat.

Turn 2
The masque and daemonettes land. He uses the masque's power to put the lascannon combat squad right next to my tactical squad and then charges both of them with the bloodthirster.

The bloodthirster rolls pretty badly, only killing two tactical marines from the larger squad, but I don't manage to do anything in return. His bloodcrushers kill all but the assault marine sergeant but only succeed in killing one storm shield honour guard and fail to wound Zacharias.

On my turn I fire frag missiles into the daemonettes and wipe them out.

The bloodthirster kills another few tactical marines, but everyone stayes in combat.

The bloodcrushers finally wipe out the honour guard, melta squad and libriarian, but there are only three of them left.

Turn 3

His bloodletters land.

The masque forces the sergeant's combat squad and the assault combat squad right next to each other and the bloodcrushers charge both. The tacticals are wiped out down to the sergeant and the assault marines are wiped out down to two. The assault marines manage to break and escape, but I don't deal any wounds.

The bloodthirster kills more marines, but I actually manage to cause a wound and its a draw.

I fire my missile launchers into the bloodletters, killing all but two, and the assault marines rally and kill another. The casualties however mean that the assault marines are out of assault range.

The bloodthirster flails around, and only just wins the combat, the leader from the combat squad escaping, leaving Antonio the priest now on his own.

Turn 4
The masque moves the devastators into blood crusher range. They are obliterated.

The bloodthirster swats Antonio's bike away and bites the poor priest's head off.

On my turn, I charge the assault marines into the masque, and then get rended to death.

Turn 5
All I have is one combat squad leader, the masque kills him.

So yeah... chaos daemons. I kind of did okay seeing as how it was my fluff list vs an elite player with a mean list. I should have taken Astorath instead of a libriarian, that would have helped a lot.

But still, if he'd had less than 8 bloodcrushers they wouldn't have wiped out my entire army the way they did.

I think i may have to buy more rocket launcher devastators at some point. They did do 80% of the damage in my army.

I also talked the the store guy and he said that there won't be a dark eldar battleforce until feburary and nobody knows what's in it.

[Winterwind]

Ouch... sounds nasty, Closet_Skeleton. :smalleek:

Regarding the missile launcher Devastators: I had a small 1000 points game against Chaos Daemons last Saturday with my Chaos Space Marines, and my Havocs ended up doing 80% of the damage as well (killing: A Tzeentch Daemon Prince, about a dozen Pink Horrors and three Bloodcrushers). The rest of my army basically just acted as meatshields and diversion for the Havocs to do their job - I think beside the Havocs only the Plague Marines took off a wound or two from the Prince and the Bloodcrushers, and killed maybe two Horrors.

[hamishspence]

Oh. The rules I'd found online for that thing must have been outdated, or something, because they only specified a regular melta, not one using any sort of template.

Okay, that is nasty, then. :smalleek:

It says in Siege of Vraks 2 that everything touched by the template takes a Str 10 AP2 hit, (not Str 10 AP 1)- but it's still horribly good.

[Ninja Chocobo]

It says in Siege of Vraks 2 that everything touched by the template takes a Str 10 AP2 hit, (not Str 10 AP 1)- but it's still horribly good.

In IA:A2 they actually improved it. Crazy.

[lord_khaine]

Orcs vs Eldar, Seer Robin says hello to the new Warboss (1750p)

Eldar


Seer Robin, Farseer with the staff of Ultranar

Tak (The Avatar of Khaine)

2*10 dire avengers + Exarch

10 guardians with Spirit Seer

10 scorpions + Exarch, the Gardener

8 fire dragons + Exarch

2 Wraithlord, Scatter laser & Missile

2 Wave serpents, scatter laser

Orcs


Warboss Greenskin in Battlewagon
With 5 nobs and a doctor

5 Nob bikers, with doctor

tank hunter sqadron ( 3 armor 10 bikes? with missiles)

7 Shooty Orcs (some sort of longrange str 7 weapon with a random number of shots)

3 wagons with 12 shoota orcs, 1 also carrying a big mech (might be a unit of hard boys here)

1 looted battlewagon


Battlefield

The Eldar arrived first and deployed their forces in an attempt to control the 5 objectives on the battlefield, leaving the Orcs to place the Lootet wagon in the NW corner, the 3 wagons including the Mech to the right of it, and the 7 shooty Orcs in a tower N.
The battlewagon, the Nob bikers and the tank hunters were then placed in the NE part of the map.

But it turned out Seer Robins deployment map was insanely hard to read, leading to a couple of Eldar units at the SE part quickly running further west, leading to the final Eldar deployment looking like this.

SW ruins, Dire avengers, with Tak and a Wraithlord a bit E of them.
In the middle ruins, Guardians, and to the right of them yet another wraithlord, as well as the Wave serpent with the Fire dragons.
Seer robins Serpent was then placed futher south of the Guardians.

the last unit of Avengers had trouble reading Seer Robins map, and did not arrive in time for the start of the battle.


Objectives

1 NE
1 W, close to center
1 E, close to center
1 S
1 SE

Round 1

The Eldars got the first turn, something that Seer Robin used to Guide the 2 Eldar heroes controling the Wraithlords, leading to a devastatingly accurate hail of laser bolts blasting 2 Wagons appart, followed by a withering crossfire from the 2 Wave serpents blowing up the engine on the last wagon, imobilising it.

The Nob bikers had at this time finaly discovered the party was going on in the other end of the battlefield, and followed by Boss Greenskin they drove down towards the guardians at the southern objective.

Meanwhile the looted wagon fired its first shot, knocking a big chunk of wraithbone off the closest wraithlord.
The Mech had at this point realised his wagon could not be saved, and so he startet running down towards the big central group of eldar, with his 2 mobs of shooty boys.
The hard boys on the other hand had discovered it was only the Engine that was missing on their wagon, and the solution to this problem was obvious just for ½ the boys to go out and push, letting the wagon continue down the middle towards the central objective at a totaly unrealistic speed.

Round 2

having seen the cost for wraithlord repairs quickly made Seer Robin drive up North, getting into position to blow up the looted wagon as fast as possible, though the only thing he did manage was to scare the gunner, preventing him from firering.

At the same time the SW Avengers startet moving up towards the 2 rampaging mobs of Orcs, with the 2 wraithlords moving a bit closer in, to be able to support them if nececary.

Tak meanwhile was greatly angered by the sheer stupidity of the hard boys pushing their wagon, so throwing his Burning blade like a spear, he managet to nail the wagon to the ground, taking it out of the battle.

Some sporadic fire was also directet at the Biker Nobs, but their insane speed was to much for the slow reacting Wraithlords.
In a desperate attempt to make them slow down a bit, the Fire dragons placed their Wave serpent right in their path.

the gamble paid off, and the Bikers drove right for the Wave serpent, that in the last second flew straight up, leaving the Nob bikes suddenly surroundet and far from cover.

in the other end of the battlefield 3 mobs of orcs suddenly focused all their fire upon Tak, no doubt because his great throw had caught their attention, and a singel round even blew a minor hole in his Burning body, driving the cheering hard boys to assult him, in the firm belief that he was weakened enough to take down now.

He wasnt...


Round 3

At this point the leader of the striking scorpions, a very old and slightly crazy Exarch known only as the Gardener, had finaly woken up from his nap in the back of the Wave serpent, and with a battle cry of "lets trim them hedges", he jumped of the flying Serpent, quickly followed by his scorpions and Seer Robin, who had been knocked off the Waveserpent by the erratic Exarch.

Robin suddenly found himself in the path of 12 rampaging Orcs, with the leading apperently running straight for him while brandishing a huge hydralic claw, no doubt in the belief that Seer Robins huge hat made him an Eldar warlord, and therefore the source of a good fight.

Failing to crush the Orc leaders mind left Seer Robin desperatly out of options, but in a last bid to distract the Nob he conjured the illusion of a Wasp on his nose, leaving him to try and swat it with the power Klaw.

The stunned Nob newer got a chance to recover, as Tak suddenly came storming in from the right, brutaly trampling the Nob on his way to crush the Big Mech, while the Gardener came in from the left, madly shouting nonsense about weed while clipping the head off the surprised mech.

At the Eastern front, the lost unit of dire Avengers had finaly arrived, Caching the surprised Nob bikers in a crossfire of truely epic propertions, as the Fire dragons, Dire avengers and Guardians all opened fire upon them.

The few surviving Shooty boys at the western front had still been cut down to ½ their original number from a surprise storm of shurikens, leaving them wisely retreating back towards their own line.

Boss Greenskin on the other hand, had finaly arrived at the Southern objective, and his first act was to brutaly butcher the fire dragons, who had been caught outside their transport.


Round 4


"Thats not a Geranium" the Gardener shouted, before storming down towards the warboss as quickly as his heavy armor would allow.
A few few of his more sensible students quickly dragget the protesting Seer Robin with them, knowing that his natural ability to produce bad luck would be needet if the Eldar were to stop the rampaging Boss Greenskin.

Tak meanwhile continued his own rampage down towards the orc lines, finaly getting the looted wagon in throwing range.
He was still missing his sword, who was nailing a orc wagon to the ground, but a orc power klaw, crushed into a burning ball of semi-molten metal proved enough to take the looted wagon down.

At the eastern front, the surviving Avengers and guardians was desperatly running away from boss Greenskin, splitting up in an attempt to lose him in the ruins.

In a attemt to buy them time to escape, the Wraithlord known as the Left hand of Asuran crashed thought the nearby ruins, caching Greenskin by surprise and letting him close his huge hands on the head of the warboss, slowly crushing it as were it a ripe tomato, even as the enraged bodyguards tore his wraithbone shell appart, letting him once again die a hero.

The remaining Orc Nobs were quickly done with the Wraithlord, and fell upon the nearby guardians as a savage green tide, tearing them appart to the last man, while the battle wagon startet shooting the remaining Avengers, who had been trying to sneak down towards the SE objective.
Losing yet another 3 members to shooting broke the spirit of the Avengers, and they fled off the field of battle.

The very Shooty orcs at the N ruins startet meanwhile to fire upon the Avengers holding the central objective, reducing them to a mere 2 man, who still bravely held their ground.


Round 5

The Scorpions fell upon upon the remaining 5 nobs and their doctor like a slightly smaller dark green tide of Wrath, mad confusion and plain old fear.
They should all rightly have been killed, but the mad orc Doctor in their midt had injected them all with a potent cocktail of combat drugs, leaving allmost impossible to kill with normal weapons.

This forced Seer Robin face to face with a big, green frothing monster, who tried to remove his head with something that must have been torn off a industrial machine.

This might have been the end of Seer Robin, if he had not gotten his new staff (borrowed from a Eldar museum) stuck in the joint of the power klaw, making the Nob forget him as it attempted to get the wraithbone staff free.
This left it less aware of the battlefield however, and the Gardener removed its left leg while it wasnt looking.

The 2 remaining Avengers at the central objective meanwhile hid in Seer Robins Wave serpent, while the Right hand of Asuran tried to remove the battlewagon that was camping on top of the other objective, without any luck.

Hiding in Seer Robins Wave serpent might not have been a smart move however, for the tank hunters that had been firering missiles at it the entire battle finaly got a penetrating hit, blowing it up and killing the last remaining Eldar troop unit at the same time.

unfortunately the orcs still had 5 surviving hard boys, camping in the battle wagon on top of the other central objective, and sudden end of the battle left Boss Greenskin with a post mortem victory.

[Cheesegear]

Hey lord_khaine, good battle. Just, for the next one, what I - personally, me, my opinion - think, is it'd be good if you had like, an extra spoiler where you basically sum everything up. Where you think you went wrong, what you did right, lessons learned, some part of the battle you just want to add in that isn't really important, what you might do for next time, what is/n't performing, etc.

Just a thought. You can always...Not.


I'll have a battle report up about my Necrons at some point in the near future. The Necron Lord (++Ordos Xenos Designation: Shattersun++), and his origins on the world of Modron. 10 Imagibucks for the reference.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah well, it took 2 hours to write, when i was finaly done i just wantet to go to bed :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Yeah well, it took 2 hours to write, when i was finaly done i just wantet to go to bed :smalltongue:

Fair enough.
Of course, when I'm writing my Battle Reports, I save them in Word, and come back to them later...What? You didn't think I wrote that much all at once did you? :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

Fair enough.
Of course, when I'm writing my Battle Reports, I save them in Word, and come back to them later...What? You didn't think I wrote that much all at once did you?

I strive to avoid mixing work and fun, therefore i dont have word on my personal computer :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, the smartest thing i did in that battle was proberly using Eldrads power, to move my army from the center of the map to the left side, where i could focus a bit on the weaker part of his army.

I also like the trap i set for his nob bikes, i couldnt focus them down as long as they were turboboosting, so i placed a wave serpent in their path, and hoped they would slow down to wreack it.
It was then pure luck that they could not roll any 6' to hit.
This attack then left them in range of Guardians, fire dragons who came out the wave serpent, and a group of dire avengers who came out of reserves.

Not so smart things are failing to protect my dire avengers, they should have been placed inside the empty wave serpent, but at that point i did not realise how dangerous his very shooty boys could actualy be, since in 3 rounds of shooting they had only broken a scatter laser, and knocked a wound off a wraith.

It was also a mistake to use both the Avatar and scorpions to wipe out a couple of orc mobs, at that time the Avatar should have been running down towards the warboss, with both wraithlords along, since the scorpions could easely have killed those orcs alone.

In conklussion, i gotta say i am really impressed by Eldrads ability to augument whatever eldar unit that might be nearby in whatever way might be nececary, as well as his ability to survive most of the crap that comes his way though a rerolled 3++ save.

Also, orc Nobs with power klaws and painboys are scary, thats defently either a job for either power fists, or someone to mind war the painboy.

[Renegade Paladin]

This isn't my first stab at a list, but I think it's one of my better ones thus far. Like it says at the top, I'm going for a veteran mechanized infantry company, hence the current setup. I recognize that I can probably do better by dropping the theme, but frankly against the local opposition that I've seen in my time observing at the local game store, I frankly don't really need to go to that much effort. :smalltongue:

The list used to have an ogryn squad, but a combination of being advised against them by a veteran Guard player and the fact that they're $22 per model (!) persuaded me to drop them in favor of more storm troopers, a techpriest, and Sergeant Bastonne for one of the veteran squads. Those adjustments have been made last-minute, so if there are better things to do with the points, I'm open to suggestions. Within the constraints of going for mechanized infantry, this list is totally open to change; if anyone wants to, feel free to go nuts. I haven't bought much more than basic infantry yet, so what the army eventually looks like is totally mutable at this point.

Imperial Guard

Veteran Mechanized Infantry

1500 points

HQ

Company Command Squad - 240
-2x sniper rifles, medi-pack, vox-caster, carapace armor, regimental standard
-Master of Ordnance, bodyguard
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Techpriest Enginseer - 60
-1x servitor
-(Note: Mounted in Chimera w/ command squad)

Elites

Storm Trooper Squad - 160
-2x grenade launchers
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Storm Trooper Squad - 160
-2x flamers
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer, and Hunter-Killer Missile

Troops

Veteran Squad - 220
-Forward Sentries doctrine
-Veteran Missile Launcher Team, 3x sniper rifles, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ camo netting and Hunter-Killer Missile

Veteran Squad - 255
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Grenadiers doctrine
-3x melta guns
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Veteran Squad - 210
-Grenadiers doctrine
-Heavy flamer, 2x meltaguns, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/Hunter-Killer Missile

Veteran Squad - 195
-Forward Sentries doctrine
-Veteran Autocannon Team, 3x sniper rifles, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Total: 1500 points
I plan to use the storm troopers for reserves using the scouts/flanking option. One of the storm trooper squads, as you can see, has lots of fire; this was in the original incarnation of the list and is intended, obviously, as a purely anti-infantry unit. The list with grenade launchers has been added in as an ad-hoc thing, as mentioned above. Anti-armor is to be provided in the form of drive-by meltas via the veteran squad armed in that fashion, as well as the squad with the missile launcher and the hunter-killer missiles on every vehicle.

So. Ideas? Comments? Remarks on what a bloody idiot I must be to put together such a trashy list? :smalltongue:

[MountainKing]

I don't play Guard, so I'm probably a bit off-base here, but, you have eight sniper rifles... In the entire army... That just seems terrible. At least in SMs, sniper rifles are vicious... in quantities of 5+ per squad. You need lots and lots of rifles, and you've only got eight... Maybe a waste of points?

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't play Guard, so I'm probably a bit off-base here, but, you have eight sniper rifles... In the entire army... That just seems terrible. At least in SMs, sniper rifles are vicious... in quantities of 5+ per squad. You need lots and lots of rifles, and you've only got eight... Maybe a waste of points?
Might be, but that's all I can get; veterans are limited to three special weapons per squad, and storm troopers are not only limited to just two, but they can't take sniper rifles. If you're playing Guard and don't want to field Space Hobbits (and I'm told doing so is a terrible idea, but feel free to say otherwise), you're kind of stuck with a low number of special weapons in general.

As for the snipers in the command squad, the squad has to stay still to use the Master of Ordnance, hence long-ranged weaponry. I considered doing a heavy weapon team of some variety instead; would that be a better option?

[MountainKing]

Yes. Very yes. I hear that grenade launchers are tasty, as are heavy weapons teams. If you can replace those sniper rifles with anything that could potentially be used to pop a metal box or wound an MC without massed fire, that's probably your best option. Like I said, I don't actually play Guard, so, you'll have to take what I'm saying as a suggestion at best; there are others in the thread who play Guard (either with or against) who can give you far, far better advice.

Good call on dropping the Ogryns though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Ratlings aren't terrible at all. In fact, they're very good. You can just do better, that's all. Ratlings are relatively cheap (sniper rifles are 5 points on their own, so a ratling is only 5 points for BS 4, infiltrate and stealth), their T2 is irrelevant since its the 3+ cover saves they use for defence, you can have 30 of them if you want (its not like you really need to take any elite slots in a guard army) and unlike veterans and special weapons teams you're not wasting any non-sniper shots if you want to use them.

But you're imperial guard, you don't really need ratlings when you have so many troops and heavy weapons.

[Renegade Paladin]

Revision: Imperial Guard

Veteran Mechanized Infantry

1500 points

HQ

Company Command Squad - 250
-Veteran lascannon team, medi-pack, vox-caster, carapace armor
-Master of Ordnance, 2x bodyguards
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Techpriest Enginseer - 75
-2x servitor
-(Note: Mounted in Chimera w/ command squad)

Elites

Storm Trooper Squad - 160
-2x grenade launchers
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Storm Trooper Squad - 160
-2x flamers
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer, and Hunter-Killer Missile

Troops

Veteran Squad - 220
-Forward Sentries doctrine
-Veteran Missile Launcher Team, 3x sniper rifles, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ camo netting and Hunter-Killer Missile

Veteran Squad - 255
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Grenadiers doctrine
-3x melta guns
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Veteran Squad - 185
-Grenadiers doctrine
-3x grenade launchers, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/Hunter-Killer Missile

Veteran Squad - 195
-Forward Sentries doctrine
-Veteran Autocannon Team, 3x sniper rifles, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Total: 1500 points
I'd realized while deleting the sniper rifles and adding the lascannon team that in the course of my ogryn-removing revision, I'd managed to accidentally upgrade five of the four veterans in the squad. :smallsigh: So no more regimental standard for me.

[Cheesegear]

Revision:

I must've missed the first list. But, if this is a revision, surely it must be better than the last? Right...


Company Command Squad - 250
-Veteran lascannon team, medi-pack, vox-caster, carapace armor
-Master of Ordnance, 2x bodyguards
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

What's superfluous here?
Lascannon, Carapace Armour, HK Missile...+50 Points.

The important thing to realise about Mechanised Lists, is that you can't receive Orders from inside a Chimera, and due the speed, and opportunistic ways that you can get your units to spread out anyway, throwing out Orders is rarely important to your Battle Plan.

I'd probably drop the Vox-Caster. Or possibly drop the entire thing, and instead get a pair of Primaris Psykers and castle them around in Chimeras throwing out Lightning Arcs and Nightmare Shrouds. Or get a Lord Commissar to make your Veterans (who no doubt will get close to the enemy) Stubborn.

Primaris Psykers also carry around Force Weapons with 4 Attacks. That's better than Space Marine Librarians. Think about it.


Techpriest Enginseer - 75
-2x servitor
-(Note: Mounted in Chimera w/ command squad)

Unless for Thematic Reasons, useless. +75 Points
Second, a Techpriest is not an Independent Character and can't join units. Or, maybe you meant that the Chimera is carrying two units? Either way, undoable.

Techpriests roll around in otherwise empty Chimeras, or on foot behind Artillery.


Storm Trooper Squad - 160
-2x grenade launchers
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Storm Trooper Squad - 160
-2x flamers
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer, and Hunter-Killer Missile

Swap the Grenade Launchers for Meltaguns. By giving Scout to your Chimeras, you have a fairly reliable first-turn tank-kill. Which is always good.

Again with the HK Missiles. +20 Points.


Veteran Squad - 220
-Forward Sentries doctrine
-Veteran Missile Launcher Team, 3x sniper rifles, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ camo netting and Hunter-Killer Missile

Drop the Missile Launcher for a Mortar. Capitalise on Pinning checks. Vox- Caster is pretty useless if you're in a Chimera, which you should be.

Again with the HK Missile. +25 Points.

I'm racking up these points...:smalleek:


Veteran Squad - 255
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Grenadiers doctrine
-3x melta guns
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

Yes. Except for the HK Missile. However, if you change your Storm Troopers to Meltaguns as well, they'll be useless. In fact, dump your Storm Troopers for another one of these.


Veteran Squad - 185
-Grenadiers doctrine
-3x grenade launchers, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/Hunter-Killer Missile

HK Missile. :smallsigh: +10 Points.

Don't take Veterans with Grenade Launchers. If you're going to be moving forwards, you want Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, or Meltaguns.


Veteran Squad - 195
-Forward Sentries doctrine
-Veteran Autocannon Team, 3x sniper rifles, Vox-Caster
-Chimera dedicated transport w/ Hunter-Killer Missile

This is the squad you want Grenade Launchers on. Drop Sniper Rifles. You just don't have enough of them to be worthwhile.

...I think I pulled something on the order of ~200 points out of your list. Which is a whole 'nother Veteran squad. If you're just going to go for broke on Veterans, it might be more worthwhile to ditch your Stormtroopers since Veterans can do the same job slightly cheaper.

The only thing that Storm Troopers deal with that Veterans don't is Space Marines out in the open. But, that's what Chimeras are for. And Space Marines don't sit out in the open anyway. No-one does these days. :smallwink:

[Renegade Paladin]

I must've missed the first list. But, if this is a revision, surely it must be better than the last? Right...



What's superfluous here?
Lascannon, Carapace Armour, HK Missile...+50 Points.

The important thing to realise about Mechanised Lists, is that you can't receive Orders from inside a Chimera, and due the speed, and opportunistic ways that you can get your units to spread out anyway, throwing out Orders is rarely important to your Battle Plan.

I'd probably drop the Vox-Caster. Or possibly drop the entire thing, and instead get a pair of Primaris Psykers and castle them around in Chimeras throwing out Lightning Arcs and Nightmare Shrouds. Or get a Lord Commissar to make your Veterans (who no doubt will get close to the enemy) Stubborn.

Primaris Psykers also carry around Force Weapons with 4 Attacks. That's better than Space Marine Librarians. Think about it.



Unless for Thematic Reasons, useless. +75 Points
Second, a Techpriest is not an Independent Character and can't join units. Or, maybe you meant that the Chimera is carrying two units? Either way, undoable.

Techpriests roll around in otherwise empty Chimeras, or on foot behind Artillery.



Swap the Grenade Launchers for Meltaguns. By giving Scout to your Chimeras, you have a fairly reliable first-turn tank-kill. Which is always good.

Again with the HK Missiles. +20 Points.



Drop the Missile Launcher for a Mortar. Capitalise on Pinning checks. Vox- Caster is pretty useless if you're in a Chimera, which you should be.

Again with the HK Missile. +25 Points.

I'm racking up these points...:smalleek:



Yes. Except for the HK Missile. However, if you change your Storm Troopers to Meltaguns as well, they'll be useless. In fact, dump your Storm Troopers for another one of these.



HK Missile. :smallsigh: +10 Points.

Don't take Veterans with Grenade Launchers. If you're going to be moving forwards, you want Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, or Meltaguns.



This is the squad you want Grenade Launchers on. Drop Sniper Rifles. You just don't have enough of them to be worthwhile.

...I think I pulled something on the order of ~200 points out of your list. Which is a whole 'nother Veteran squad. If you're just going to go for broke on Veterans, it might be more worthwhile to ditch your Stormtroopers since Veterans can do the same job slightly cheaper.

The only thing that Storm Troopers deal with that Veterans don't is Space Marines out in the open. But, that's what Chimeras are for. And Space Marines don't sit out in the open anyway. No-one does these days. :smallwink:
Mathematically speaking, I completely fail to see why always wounding half the time regardless of the target's Toughness (with AP 2; I'm not sure why they bother putting AP 6 in the stat line when all sniper weapons are rending and all rending weapons count as AP 2, but hey) isn't worthwhile unless you have lots of weapons doing it at once. Monstrous creatures and ICs (those things with a high enough Toughness for it to matter) only have so many wounds.

There's seats left in the Chimera; if the rules say another unit can't sit in them, then the rules are nonsensical and should be changed at once. But I suppose I can't rely on GW to do things in a sensible manner, so out the techpriest goes.

Veterans can't do the job I want the stormtroopers to do, which is outflank and rampage around the backfield early in the game, due to there being no way to give veterans the Scouts rule. I will, however, switch to meltaguns with the points freed from the techpriest.

I'll move back to flamers for the grenade launcher squad. I only moved from a heavy flamer in the first place to get points for the lascannon in the command squad, and deleting the techpriest gives more than enough points to go back.

Hunter-killer missiles: The Chaos players at the local game store have Defilers out the wazoo. I want them to die as far away from my lines as possible. In the heavy armor list I'm developing this job will be done by tanks (huzzah for the Vanquisher and it's table-ranging anti-armor cannon), but I don't have any tanks in this list.

This is also the reason for the lascannon you labeled superfluous. The command squad needs to hold still for the Master of Ordnance to do his job anyway; if they're to affect the battle they need long-ranged weaponry. As for the MoO's job in the first place, we have some very... prolific Orks in the local wargaming scene, and the ability to drop pie plates on them early game is too delicious to pass up. While we're on the subject of the command squad, carapace armor is for surviving the destruction of their Chimera and subsequent exposure, which is more likely to happen than not barring a total inability to deal with armor on the part of my opponent, I think.

Vox-casters: You know, I can't figure out how the heck a radio is supposed to only be good at the distance the commander can shout anyway. I'll probably drop them. Barring melta drive-bys on opposing tanks, I'd planned on driving the veterans to cover (preferably around objectives) before disembarking and using the APCs' weaponry to supplement the squad's fire. If they should stay in the heavy weapon magnet to blow up gloriously when it goes up in smoke and shrapnel, though, then I suppose I'll try that. :smalltongue: Disembarking the troops is what I'd had in mind, hence the voxes, but if they're better off staying in the Chimeras then they'll stay in the Chimeras. (Part of the problem is that I bought my infantry used and mostly already put together, and a high proportion of them have vox-casters; WYSIWYG and all that...)

As for a Lord Commissar, I'm trying to build my lists to fit a chapter auxiliary for the Reasonable Marines; shooting my own troops in the head runs rather counter to that idea. I realize that as long as I was very careful to keep him more than 2" away from a unit he wouldn't do that, but still, I'd rather find other ways. That was the idea behind the vox-casters, Sergeant Bastonne (though he can only be there for one squad), and the regimental standard that used to be in before I realized that I'd erroneously put in more upgrades than veterans; to prevent my troops from scattering to the four winds without having to be unreasonably brutal about it. :smallwink:

Don't take anything I said as an automatic turning down of your suggestions (for non-thematic reasons, at any rate), but... I'm seeing a marked lack of elaboration on just why some of the things you dismissed out of hand are worthy of being dismissed out of hand. To summarize, I especially don't see why sniper rifles, HK missiles, and the lascannon are bad ideas; it seems to me that the ability to neutralize powerful monstrous creatures, independent characters, and armored vehicles at range is a key capability that shouldn't be neglected.

In particular, to take a quick look at the Space Marines army list (which I did while modeling at the game store this evening), six sniper shots, statistically speaking, will almost certainly kill any HQ unit on the list barring Marneus Calgar and Captain Lysander (both having four wounds) without extreme bad luck, since they wound half the time and very few things have more than three wounds. The same commanders (who likely have an armor save of 2+ with artificer or Terminator armor) are likely to shrug off a hail of lasgun fire if exposed to it, since an S3 lasgun will only have a chance to wound on 5+ against a Space Marine's T4, and even then they'd need to roll a 1 to fail to be saved by their armor... three times. Against normal infantry, all sniper weapons are pinning, so although sniper weapons might not be strictly better for simply killing them (not everything is a Space Marine, after all), forcing a whole unit to lose a turn should be often just as good if not better. Using flamers on them is even better than that, of course, but not every weapon can do everything.

At BS 4 (for veterans), both weapon types hit on a 3+, so there's no difference to compare in actual hit rates. If I'm missing something, I don't see what it is, but I'd be glad to find out if indeed I am.

[Winterwind]

(with AP 2; I'm not sure why they bother putting AP 6 in the stat line when all sniper weapons are rending and all rending weapons count as AP 2, but hey)Um. No. Rending weapons only count as AP2 when the Rending actually triggers, i.e. on a To-Wound roll of 6. A To-Wound roll of 4 or 5, while it also wounds thanks to being a sniper weapon, only has AP6.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Um. No. Rending weapons only count as AP2 when the Rending actually triggers, i.e. on a To-Wound roll of 6. A To-Wound roll of 4 or 5, while it also wounds thanks to being a sniper weapon, only has AP6.

Which means that Orks are *really* in trouble :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

I completely fail to see why always wounding half the time regardless of the target's Toughness (with AP 2; I'm not sure why they bother putting AP 6 in the stat line when all sniper weapons are rending and all rending weapons count as AP 2, but hey) isn't worthwhile unless you have lots of weapons doing it at once. Monstrous creatures and ICs (those things with a high enough Toughness for it to matter) only have so many wounds.

Winterwind already pointed out that that's not the way that Rending weapons work. So, I'll let that slide. But, the reason you take Sniper Rifles is to maximise Pinning checks, and Guard just don't have the number of Rifles to make up the difference. Especially since those Rifles cost points, and also come at the cost of taking something else which may or may not be better (Meltaguns in a Chimera, for example).

Then you brought up Monstrous Creatures. Why? The fact is, you don't need rifles. Every single one of those Chimeras that you're packing comes with a Multi-Laser, and maybe even a Heavy Bolter.
Then, of course, Meltaguns. They hit on the same. Except are Wounding on 2s (or 4s in the case of Wraithlords), so, Meltaguns are better than Rifles in that regard, since they're also AP1. And, since we've already pointed out, Rifles are not always AP2. And, even then, AP2 is not AP1. Meltaguns actually have a decent effect against vehicles as well.

You're packing Chimeras - range is not an issue.


Hunter-killer missiles: The Chaos players at the local game store have Defilers out the wazoo. I want them to die as far away from my lines as possible. In the heavy armor list I'm developing this job will be done by tanks (huzzah for the Vanquisher and it's table-ranging anti-armor cannon), but I don't have any tanks in this list.

He has maximum 3 Defilers.

You have multiple fast moving units with multiple Meltaguns.


If I'm missing something, I don't see what it is, but I'd be glad to find out if indeed I am.

I think the point you're missing, is that you're taking a lot things that you don't have to be. Or, are simply misunderstanding how particular units in your list work.

I'd drop the Command Squad. You don't need Lascannons, or Ordnance shots, when you have enough Melta. And, in a Mechanised List, Melta weapons are the best, because your tanks and basic troops carry all the Infantry-killing weapons, and you have the speed and fire points to ensure that Melta weapons go off without so much of a hiccup.

[Renegade Paladin]

Um. No. Rending weapons only count as AP2 when the Rending actually triggers, i.e. on a To-Wound roll of 6. A To-Wound roll of 4 or 5, while it also wounds thanks to being a sniper weapon, only has AP6.
Well, that would be what I missed.
Which means that Orks are *really* in trouble :smalltongue:
Quite so. :smallamused:
Winterwind already pointed out that that's not the way that Rending weapons work. So, I'll let that slide. But, the reason you take Sniper Rifles is to maximise Pinning checks, and Guard just don't have the number of Rifles to make up the difference. Especially since those Rifles cost points, and also come at the cost of taking something else which may or may not be better (Meltaguns in a Chimera, for example).
Point taken.

Then you brought up Monstrous Creatures. Why? The fact is, you don't need rifles. Every single one of those Chimeras that you're packing comes with a Multi-Laser, and maybe even a Heavy Bolter.
Then, of course, Meltaguns. They hit on the same. Except are Wounding on 2s (or 4s in the case of Wraithlords), so, Meltaguns are better than Rifles in that regard, since they're also AP1. And, since we've already pointed out, Rifles are not always AP2. And, even then, AP2 is not AP1. Meltaguns actually have a decent effect against vehicles as well.

You're packing Chimeras - range is not an issue.
I brought them up because I haven't read any Codices that employ them yet, so I was working on the presumption that they're high-Toughness and multiple wounds, both of which a Toughness-ignoring weapon deals with. As for range, I'm concerned about keeping distance between my forces and the enemy - even with the Grenadiers doctrine, Guardsmen are fragile and terrible at close combat. If meltas will permit me to slag enough of the enemy force to not be sure of instant annihilation for daring to close, then fine and dandy.


He has maximum 3 Defilers.

You have multiple fast moving units with multiple Meltaguns.
You may have noted I used the plural. The game store here tends to host doubles tournaments and event games. My friend who I plan to team with plays an all-infantry Space Wolves force. (His only vehicle is a drop pod.) There are two Chaos players, and I've seen them together field four plus some big daemon or another each.

I think the point you're missing, is that you're taking a lot things that you don't have to be. Or, are simply misunderstanding how particular units in your list work.

I'd drop the Command Squad. You don't need Lascannons, or Ordnance shots, when you have enough Melta. And, in a Mechanised List, Melta weapons are the best, because your tanks and basic troops carry all the Infantry-killing weapons, and you have the speed and fire points to ensure that Melta weapons go off without so much of a hiccup.
So the better approach is to get in the enemy's face with as many meltaguns as I can muster? I tend to prefer a more combined-arms approach, but if that's what works better in the game, then it works better in the game.

[lord_khaine]

Then, of course, Meltaguns. They hit on the same. Except are Wounding on 2s (or 4s in the case of Wraithlords)

Except for Avatars, who they dont wound at all :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

You may have noted I used the plural. The game store here tends to host doubles tournaments and event games.

Well, that's about nine times different. Most tactics discussions are done with the assumption of 1v1. When you bring in a second army, the whole dynamic changes, since you can be dealing with Orks, or any other Assault-based army, and Tau - a primarily shooty army - at the same time, which can royally screw things up.

When you put it into this context, we need to know your friend's army as well.


So the better approach is to get in the enemy's face with as many meltaguns as I can muster? I tend to prefer a more combined-arms approach, but if that's what works better in the game, then it works better in the game.

Pretty much. Like with many armies in the game, there are ways to screw it up, and do it fantastically well.
When you're playing Mechanised Guard (and that means Chimeras for every unit), your tanks are the ones taking the Anti-Infantry fire, with their Multi-Lasers and Heavy Flamers/Bolters. Your Infantry should be used for other things, such as being the ones who tank-pop.

When playing with Mechanised Guard (or, in fact, Guard in general), you want lots and lots of units, hopefully, none of them strictly 'better' than the other. That way when your opponent kills one, you have like, five more where that came from. Also, never get out of your Chimera. It has 6 Fire Points, there is no reason to get out unless you get Crew Stunned or Immoblised and are not on an objective.


Except for Avatars, who they dont wound at all :smalltongue:

Multi-Lasers will. Which might as well be just as good as Rifles against the Avatar.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, that's about nine times different. Most tactics discussions are done with the assumption of 1v1. When you bring in a second army, the whole dynamic changes, since you can be dealing with Orks, or any other Assault-based army, and Tau - a primarily shooty army - at the same time, which can royally screw things up.

When you put it into this context, we need to know your friend's army as well.
Having not actually put anything into practice yet, I don't know a whole lot that I can tell you. His army list is fairly mutable; in the finale of the last campaign (which I didn't play in; I'm only now gearing up to play at all, assembling my first Chimera last night) he used three runepriests, Njal Stormcaller, some Lone Wolves in Terminator armor with Fenrisian wolves with them, and a couple of tactical squad equivalents, but he also fields Canis Wolfborn with a completely different list for different situations. The important thing is that he uses all infantry and a lot of Terminators; no vehicles except his drop pod, which he tends to drop melee-armed scouts (whose sergeant he painted up like Mr. T...) in from what I've seen observing.

The real snag is that in the first tourney I plan to play in (which is, indeed, a doubles tourney), someone else called in a partnering that he owed, so I won't be with him that time and have no idea who or what I'll end up with.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Well, I spent the last couple of hours picking through a handful of 40k blogs, forums and other miscellania because among other things I'm considering starting Orks (the middle of assessment is the best time to start a new army :smallbiggrin:) and I'm reconsidering how to alter my marine builds.

Then I stumbled across this one (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/).

I'm honestly not sure what to make of the whole blog. Sometimes they have pretty decent analysis, if a bit too bogged down in over-analysis and ranting (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/forumitis-its-specialist-unit-you-just.html).

Then you have the glut of bizarre, (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-episode-xxii-return-of-meta.html) counter-intuitive (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-firewarriors-are-such-utter-fail.html) analysis (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/forumitis-i-only-play-for-fun.html) that makes my inner general weep.

I think the strangest thing about this blog is how hell-bent it is on subverting the forums themselves (perpetual barrage of the word 'forumitis') whilst it falls into the homogeny that they perpetuate (every list is about mechanised firepower, all the time and no infantry are gonna do anything, ever).

So where does this fall into the whole 40k-culture alignment? Or is it just another corner of the internet for the true nutcases of the hobby to gather? I'm not sure. Kind of disheartened about starting Orks, though. Just cause I might have to deal with people like this whenever I show up with an infantry-based list :smallsigh:

[Winterwind]

bizarre, (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/dark-eldar-episode-xxii-return-of-meta.html)I read only this one, and I have no intention of continuing with the others. That was the most stupid thing I've read in a month (and I read NotAlwaysRight (http://notalwaysright.com/) almost daily). :smalleek:

The first sentence alone, where he practically states "if you don't do illegal things, you just ain't no cool, dawg!" is... wow. Just wow.


So where does this fall into the whole 40k-culture alignment? Or is it just another corner of the internet for the true nutcases of the hobby to gather? I'm not sure. Kind of disheartened about starting Orks, though. Just cause I might have to deal with people like this whenever I show up with an infantry-based list :smallsigh:Don't be. I haven't ever encountered people who either were this intolerant towards their fellow gamers, believed in the strategic doctrines this blog's owner believes in, or expressed their beliefs with such vehemency. I don't think there is any particular reason to be disheartened from something you want to do because of some singulary idiot. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

So where does this fall into the whole 40k-culture alignment? Or is it just another corner of the internet for the true nutcases of the hobby to gather?

3++ is one of those sites. Play competitively, or not at all. 'Combo'd units' are terrible. The only things worth playing are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Tyranids.


I'm not sure. Kind of disheartened about starting Orks, though. Just cause I might have to deal with people like this whenever I show up with an infantry-based list :smallsigh:

There's nothing wrong with an Infantry-based list. Infantry Guard proves it. The Tyranid Swarm proves it. The Green Tide proves it. However, Infantry lists need to be just that. Infantry. Once you start diluting it with vehicles - even light ones - or Monstrous Creatures, you're undermining what makes Infantry Lists good.

[Klose_the_Sith]

3++ is one of those sites. Play competitively, or not at all. 'Combo'd units' are terrible. The only things worth playing are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Tyranids.

The problem is that teh site doesn't really seem to think that. It says some bizarre things about the metagame, but considers every 5e army to be viable, so long as you 'know how to play 5e'.

It, among other things, defends Tactical marines as a troops choice which is particularly strange, considering how strongly the whole place baulks at the very concept of infantry. Naturally they always have to have a flamer + multi-melta while sitting in a rhino, but I've seen stranger things said ...


There's nothing wrong with an Infantry-based list. Infantry Guard proves it. The Tyranid Swarm proves it. The Green Tide proves it. However, Infantry lists need to be just that. Infantry. Once you start diluting it with vehicles - even light ones - or Monstrous Creatures, you're undermining what makes Infantry Lists good.

It's probably just sledgehammer arguments + human pack mentality causing me to look at everything doubtfully.

(And you'd really think I could take some confidence, seeing as I've as many wins with proxied orks as I have with my mechanised Marines. And I've played a single game with proxies orks. And the number I'm talking about isn't zero :smalltongue:)


I read only this one, and I have no intention of continuing with the others. That was the most stupid thing I've read in a month (and I read NotAlwaysRight (http://notalwaysright.com/) almost daily). :smalleek:

The first sentence alone, where he practically states "if you don't do illegal things, you just ain't no cool, dawg!" is... wow. Just wow.

I think the most interesting part was where the sentiment of "troops are useless in fifth edition" and "you only ever need to cap one objective" started being paraded out. Quite a strange topic, that.


Don't be. I haven't ever encountered people who either were this intolerant towards their fellow gamers, believed in the strategic doctrines this blog's owner believes in, or expressed their beliefs with such vehemency. I don't think there is any particular reason to be disheartened from something you want to do because of some singulary idiot. :smallwink:

It reminds me of someone at that tournament I went to who talked about how he didn't play Daemons due to the overpowered-ness of first turn deep striking assaults up the wazoo.

When everyone within a large blast radius went 'lolwut?' he got out a copy of the Chaos Space Marine codex and pointed to the rules for summoned Daemons.

That was an ... odd ... experience.

There's also someone in the wargaming club who's always nice and a fun opponent, but apparently plays his Tau the same as this site says to (minimum/no Fire Warriors, maybe Kroot, suit spam).

[Arcanoi]

3++ is one of those sites. Play competitively, or not at all. 'Combo'd units' are terrible. The only things worth playing are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Tyranids.


Also seems to be the sort of man who believes "I am right and the opinions of everyone who disagrees with me, ever, are wrong." I'd never heard of this site, and I now realize I probably should have been thankful for that.

His assessment of Dark Eldar doesn't really tell me much, seeing as I haven't read the book, but it seems to suggest that the Dark Eldar are capable of being everywhere at once, with all of their firepower, every turn, and that they can afford 2000pts of Lances while taking 2000pts of Splinter guns in a 2000pt game. His rant on the lack of 'competitiveness' and constant comparison of casual hobbyists and a CEO who understands that they are where the money is to the 4chan Meme of Abbaddon is likewise humorous.

[K1rby]

Some clarifications (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/11/3-around-web-what-is-3-about.html)and just for your enjoyment ^^.

[sircarp]

As a fairly new player of the game I thought 3++ did a fairly good job of explaining how to build a better list and play a better game. Plus most of the writers do a good job of getting their point across without being a jerk, in contrast to sites like YTTH; which is what I really like about this site.

[Cheesegear]

Plus most of the writers do a good job of getting their point across without being a jerk, in contrast to sites like YTTH; which is what I really like about this site.

YTTH is where 40K goes to die. It is effectively the *chan of 40K. It is one of the more (in)famous sites among the competitive 40K community.

Anyway, with The First Heretic out over the weekend, my love for Necrons hit the very large, and very solid wall of my love for the second-most under-rated Chaos Legion (the most under-rated being Alpha Legion), and the second-most under-rated Primarch (the most under-rated being Ferrus Manus).
(Feel free to continue the discussion of this part of the post over in the Fluff thread, I'll read that too)

Ah well, at least I have a Tomb Stalker (a very beautiful model, and, ultimately, I bought it just to have one) and about a thousand points of Necrons (which, isn't actually a lot, due to the points-per-model of Necrons) for when the next Codex comes out.

Time to roll with Chaos Marines. :smallamused:
For my first conversion (come on, you saw this coming), I'll be using one of the new Daemon Princes standing over a Casket of Souls (WHFB, Tomb Kings), with one of the massive Dark Angels books around, and flying, flaming skulls running around. Like corrupted Servo Skulls.

Also, Word Bearers have the cool flaming skull motif going on. Which is the exact same conversion I've been liberally practicing on my Tomb Kings to make Flaming Skull catapults and Ghost Riders. Also, being Cultists, I get to use the few dozen or so spare Black Templar tabards and Dark Angel robes I have lying around.

[Zorg]

Lol @ Kirby.

I like 3++ overall, and if I don't like a particular article (like any blog) I don't read it. Even if you don't agree with the rules 'tricks', it pays to be in the know if someone tries one against you.

[Cheesegear]

I like 3++ overall, and if I don't like a particular article (like any blog) I don't read it. Even if you don't agree with the rules 'tricks', it pays to be in the know if someone tries one against you.

Seconded. It pays (quite handsomely) to at least be in the know of what the current competitive meta-game is doing. Just don't be fooled into following them to the letter.

[Talkkno]

How viable are Tau at 500 points?

[Cheesegear]

How viable are Tau at 500 points?

Fairly. Point-per-model, they have some of the best Troops in the game. And, at that level of play, you want your Troops to be really, really good. Especially since minimum squad sizes are 6. You can get a fair few units.

Then have a go with your Commander and, maybe go with a Stealth Team with Fusion Blasters to pop tanks. You might even be able to afford two Broadsides (deployed seperately).

[Talkkno]

Fairly. Point-per-model, they have some of the best Troops in the game. And, at that level of play, you want your Troops to be really, really good. Especially since minimum squad sizes are 6. You can get a fair few units.

Does that I mean I should only take only 6 to get as many squads as possible, not take devilfish and just have them slog it?

EDIT: Is there anyway to make Etherals work at all, even at this level they don't work?

[Cheesegear]

Does that I mean I should only take only 6 to get as many squads as possible, not take devilfish and just have them slog it?

I wouldn't take Devilfish. In 500 points you don't need to move around so much. And a Devilfish is another 8 Fire Warriors you could be getting.

Commander, kitted for Anti-Tank.
Stealth Suits with Fusion Blasters, or Broadsides.

Spend whatever's left on Fire Warriors.


Is there anyway to make Etherals work at all, even at this level they don't work?

It's not that they don't 'work', per se. Its that Commanders are 1+. So you're already spending points on your Commander without 'wasting' points on an Ethereal. Then, in higher points, when you occasionally might think about taking a second HQ, why not just take a second Commander?

The Ethereal is usually good to take his Honour Guard, but, that's about it. And it's still a pretty poor choice since the HG aren't scoring, and you should have Markerlights to increase your BS anyway.

[Wraith]

Time to roll with Chaos Marines. :smallamused:
For my first conversion (come on, you saw this coming), I'll be using one of the new Daemon Princes standing over a Casket of Souls (WHFB, Tomb Kings), with one of the massive Dark Angels books around, and flying, flaming skulls running around. Like corrupted Servo Skulls.

Also, Word Bearers have the cool flaming skull motif going on. Which is the exact same conversion I've been liberally practicing on my Tomb Kings to make Flaming Skull catapults and Ghost Riders. Also, being Cultists, I get to use the few dozen or so spare Black Templar tabards and Dark Angel robes I have lying around.

Sounds great, but I have to say; If you have not produced a fully-functional rebirth/retool of the Doomrider before this project is finished, I shall be quite saddened by it.

Just sayin', because if anyone can get it to 'work' then I believe it's going to be Cheesegear. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

(I'm aware that the original Doomrider wasn't a very good unit at all, but I find the idea of a Space Marine Biker powered by cocaine riding around with his head on fire to be irresistable!)

[Cheesegear]

Sounds great, but I have to say; If you have not produced a fully-functional rebirth/retool of the Doomrider before this project is finished, I shall be quite saddened by it.

Improve on this?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/b/b9/Doomrider.jpg/180px-Doomrider.jpg

Please. If I can make a Jetbike-riding Raven Guard Captain wielding the Wailing Doom with a Storm Shield strapped to his back, I can improve on that. But, question is, why would I want to? Chaos Lords on Bikes are just...Blergh.

[Talkkno]

List

HQ
Shas'El Commander - 78 Points
Twin Linked Fusion Blasters, Targeting array.

TROOPS
Fire Warriors (x12) - 145 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Markerlight

Fire Warriors (x11) - 135 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Markerlight

HEAVY SUPPORT
XV88 Broadside (x1) - 70 Points

XV88 Broadside (x1) - 70 Points

498 Points
If I'm reading this correctly, I only have two markerlights correct? Do I really need to the anti tank on the Commander considering I already have the two broadsides?

[Gauntlet]

I was actually looking to put together a Tau army recently, thinking of Devilfish-heavy Positional Relay shenanigans at higher points. Here's the list I put together for 500:
Fire Warriors (x6) 60
Pulse Carbines

Fire Warriors (x12) 120
Pulse Rifles

Pathfinders (x5) 155
Devilfish: Disruption Pod, Seeker Missile

Piranha 80
Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pod, Seeker Missile

Shas'el 83
TL Missile Pod, Shield Drone

498 points

Thinking about swapping out the missile pods on the Shas'el for Fusion Blasters, but then my capacity to take on non-mech armies would be kind of low..

[Wraith]

Please. If I can make a Jetbike-riding Raven Guard Captain wielding the Wailing Doom with a Storm Shield strapped to his back, I can improve on that. But, question is, why would I want to? Chaos Lords on Bikes are just...Blergh.

And that, good sir, is the challenge I believe you capable of :smallsmile:

Having said that, it'd probably end up like Captain Falcon's Evil Twin, only less effective. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to make it part of your ordinary line up if only to avoid it being the same as your Imperial Fists, but it'd be nice to see how it compares in more than a glance at stats and math-hammer.

[Renegade Paladin]

List

HQ
Shas'El Commander - 78 Points
Twin Linked Fusion Blasters, Targeting array.

TROOPS
Fire Warriors (x12) - 145 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Markerlight

Fire Warriors (x11) - 145 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Markerlight

HEAVY SUPPORT
XV88 Broadside (x1) - 70 Points

XV88 Broadside (x1) - 70 Points

498 Points
If I'm reading this correctly, I only have two markerlights correct? Do I really need to the anti tank on the Commander considering I already have the two broadsides?
If you're reading it correctly? You don't know what you put in your own list? :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Having said that, it'd probably end up like Captain Falcon's Evil Twin, only less effective. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to make it part of your ordinary line up if only to avoid it being the same as your Imperial Fists Hawk Lords, but it'd be nice to see how it compares in more than a glance at stats and math-hammer.

Fixed it.

Its not that the Lord, himself is a bad option. Bikes are rad. Daemon Weapons might be S4, but have quite a few more attacks over the Relic Blade. Blissgiver makes him I6, and he starts causing Instant Death. Plaguebringer makes him T6 and Poisoned. Khorne Lords are rubbish. Tzeentch is pretty bad. But 4+ Invulnerable is quite good.
Or he can just go for S5 and lots of attacks.

So, Bike. Cool. Daemon Weapon (Slaanesh or Nurgle, maybe Tzeentch if I really hate myself) is pretty much on par with a Relic Blade. Lots of attacks is always fun. But, he doesn't walk around with a 2+/3++ save, which makes him a lot less survivable than Captain Falcon. Also, no Hellfire Rounds.

Most importantly, where does he go? Common Knowledge that Chaos Bikes are pretty terrible. So, I don't want to take them. Having Wings (or not) still allows him to ride around in a Rhino with friends, where he can rocket off by himself when the opportunity arises, etc. It's not that Chaos Lords on Bikes are bad. Its just that they don't fit in the army.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Played Chaos with my BA today.

I had the same army as before, but with an epistolery and 5 boltgun deathcompany instead of the devastators.

He had Abbadon
5 chaos terminators
Kharn (just because he had to make up the points and his only other option was proxied vehicles)
3 big units of khorne berserkers



I won who goes first, so I went second. He put Kharn and 1 unit of berserkers on the left side, Abaddon in the middle with a unit of berserkers behind him and another unit of berserkers on the right.

I put my tactical squads 6" forwards with the sanguinary priest between them, split the melta squad and put them on the left side and put my honour guard, librarian and flamer assault squad behind my tactical marines. The deathcompany went on the right side as far forwards as possible.

I chose not to seize the initiative, my units being out of range and all.

The plasma cannon squad and the honour guard got red thirst.

Turn 1
He ran everybody forwards.

I charged my deathcompany into the block of berserkers on the right, killing 4 or so with no casualties.

The melta assault squad moved up.

The honour guard moved to the right.

The tactical squads killed some berserkers and 1 terminator, despite the plasma cannon overheating.

Turn 2
The khorne berserkers ran forwards, Kharn's unit hitting some terrain, but it wasn't enough to stop them assaulting my misplaced melta squad, but the sergeant and a meltagunner managed to break and escape.

Abaddon shot at my honour guard, but the comb-melta missed and I made my saves.

The deathcompany were wiped out by the khorne berserker champion, causing no wounds in return.

I shot my lascannon squad at Kharn's, killing a few marines and then sent a combat squad and a whole assault squad into combat with Kharn, moving my priest into the large assault squad first. Sadly my flamers were misplaced and didn't get any hits. I also forgot to throw in the now rallied melta squad, who could have helped. The combat squad was reduced to one member, who fled, but my large unit and priest survived and inflicted some casualties on the berserkers (as did Kharn).

My plasma cannon squad fired at the right hand khorne berserker squad who had consolidated to block Abaddon, hoping to hit both berserkers and terminators with the heavy weapon, but it overheated for the second turn running. Regardless only 3 berserkers including the champion survived.

The librarian charged his honour guard into the terminators, whose leader Abaddon rolled a 1 for his daemon weapon. With the initiative boost from furious charge I managed to kill all the terminators before they could hit me and wounded Abaddon, but unluckily for me he passed his invulnerable save vs thunderhammer and wasn't stunned.

Turn 3

The unit of berserkers who had been hiding behind Abaddon charged into the combat to help out Kharn

The three man unit of berserkers charged the honour guard to help out Abaddon.

Kharn killed my priest, robbing me of feel no pain. Then the charging unit of berserkers cut my entire squad to pieces.

Abaddon targeted my honour guard and killed everyone but those protected by storm shields, robbing my army of priests. My Librarian suceeded in knocking Abaddon down to 1 wound.

On my turn I now had just three assault marines and two tactical squads facign down Kharn and two units of berserkers while my Librarian was at the mercy of Abaddon.

I sent my assault marines up and melta gunned some berserkers from the further forward squad. Then I fired my plasma cannon into the squad, which for once did not over-heat and despite deviating by 4 inches still killed 3 berserkers. The whole unit was reduced to just 1 model, which sadly put my assault marines out of melee range, but did give my lascannon free line of sight to hit Kharn's squad and reduce it to 4 berserkers and the betrayer.

Abaddon only rolled a 2 for his daemon weapon, but still managed to kill the remaining honour guard. The librarian suffered a perils of the warp attack when using unleash rage, but still managed to take away abaddon's final wound before the berserker champion hacked him to pieces. The berserkers then consolidated towards my plasma cannon squad.

Turn 4

Kharn's unit hit my 3 assault marines, killing them all before they could attack and consolidating right in front of mylascannon tactical squad. The lone berserker and the librarian killing berserkers then charged my plasma cannon squad and killed a few, one dying to fearless. My powerfist flubbed up and there were still 3 berserkers left against 7 marines.

The lascannon tactical squad fired at Kharn's unit, wiping them out except for the betrayer who was left on one wound (his plasma pistol had overheated earlier). The unit's plasma gunner however bravely sacrificed himself when his gun overheated.

The plasma cannon squad continued to fight, but only killed 1 berserker.

Turn 5

The plasma cannon squad's sergeant finally smashed the last berserker into the ground, but not before the champion had butched his unit down to just him and the two weapon specialists.

Kharn charged into my lascannon squad and was able to kill all but 6 of them before my powerfist sergeant splatted him.

So that was pretty close, I only had 9 tactical marines left at the end. But I suppose that's what happens when non-mech world eaters fight non-mech blood angels.



Most importantly, where does he go?

Raptors?

[Winterwind]

With T6, a Nurgle Chaos Lord on a Bike would basically have monstrous creature levels, only not, because it would actually only be T4(6), and he has no Eternal Warrior - which could be counteracted by putting him into a unit of CSM on Bikes with an Icon of Nurgle for arbitrary amounts of ablative wounds, not to mention the additional shooting and attacks. You know, don't think of them as bikers - think of them as a single, monstrous creature-like entity, with the single bikers being its wounds, and basically a special rule that makes it have more shots and attacks the more wounds it has (kinda like the WHFB Dark Elf Warhydra).

Perhaps, with enough tweaking, one might find an optimum number of Bikers where it wouldn't be utterly cost-inefficient. Probably not though. :smallbiggrin:

Still, between the Daemon Weapon, two special weapon choices (plus combi-something on the Lord) and another power weapon/fist/something from the champion, and with a sufficient Toughness to be wounded on a 3+ even by plasma weapons, and most importantly, cutting down the damage from bolters and similar S4 weapons by half in comparison to regular Bikers (wounding on 6+ only now!), it's an entertaining thought at least, even if utterly impractical. :smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Whoops, missed the next page had already begun. :smallredface:

Congratulations on your victory, Closet_Skeleton! :smallsmile:
How did a single Berserker Champion manage to kill 5 Death Company in a single turn? He shouldn't have enough attacks for that...
And, phew, you were lucky with that first 1 he rolled for Abaddon. That could have ended nastily otherwise. :smalleek:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Congratulations on your victory, Closet_Skeleton! :smallsmile:
How did a single Berserker Champion manage to kill 5 Death Company in a single turn? He shouldn't have enough attacks for that...
And, phew, you were lucky with that first 1 he rolled for Abaddon. That could have ended nastily otherwise. :smalleek:

He only killed 3, the other two got killed by normal berserkers.

He did have a rediculous number of attacks though, so I'm not entirely sure he was checking the rules properly. So many attacks were being thrown around that niether of us could keep track.

[Talkkno]

Can someone please critique my list on the last page?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9674727&postcount=1316

[Winterwind]

He only killed 3, the other two got killed my normal berserkers.


He did have a rediculous number of attacks though, so I'm not entirely sure he was checking the rules properly. So many attacks were being thrown around that niether of us could keep track.Khornate Berzerkers do have attack numbers though that regularly create incredulity. A regular Berzerker will have 3 attacks when not charging, 4 when charging, and a champion will have one more than even that, unless he went with a powerfist.


Can someone please critique my list on the last page?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...postcount=1316I would, but I'm no Tau expert (or WH40k expert in general, for that matter), so I prefer to leave it to more knowledgeable folks. It looks basically fine to my inexperienced eye though, except for one thing: No shield drone(s) on the Commander. That just asks for an S8+ hit taking him out instantly...
(your link seems to be broken, by the way. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9674727&postcount=1316) is a working one.)

[Cheesegear]

Perhaps, with enough tweaking, one might find an optimum number of Bikers where it wouldn't be utterly cost-inefficient. Probably not though. :smallbiggrin:

Chaos Lord - 180 Points
Mark of Nurgle, Plaguebringer, Bike

This isn't really that good. Considering that he doesn't do anything else (like make Bikes Troops). And a Daemon Prince of Nurgle is 165 points. With the same Toughness and Invulnerable, Eternal Warrior, etc.

But, the IC-status can help. Let's see...

Bikes (x6) - 308 Points
Icon of Nurgle, x2 Meltaguns
Champion: Power Fist

...Soo...~500 points on sub-par units that aren't Scoring. Aside from being Nurgle's favourite number, seven, is, actually an optimum unit size if you aren't forced into taking more or less to get weapon options (Codex Marines I'm looking at you).

I'm thinking this could be a good - albeit expensive - unit. Doesn't really hold a candle to a tooled Space Marine Command Squad of the same points cost. T4(6) is a lot worse than T4(5), Feel No Pain and 3+ Invulnerable. I'm going to put it on the backburner for now. Since I already have a Bike-army, and keep running with my Daemon Prince and defiled Altar.


Can someone please critique my list on the last page?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9674727&postcount=1316

Trouble is, at 500 points, there's not a lot to say. Especially with Tau where there aren't all that many options where you can go wrong anyway.


List


Shas'El Commander - 78 Points
Twin Linked Fusion Blasters, Targeting array

Yes.


Fire Warriors (x12) - 145 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Markerlight

Fire Warriors (x11) - 145 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Markerlight

Yes.


XV88 Broadside (x1) - 70 Points

XV88 Broadside (x1) - 70 Points

Yes.

See?


If I'm reading this correctly, I only have two markerlights correct? Do I really need to the anti tank on the Commander considering I already have the two broadsides?

In 500 point, and 2000+ point levels; Mech is King - except for Tau and Eldar because their Transports cost too much. So, yes.

[Klose_the_Sith]

In 500 point, and 2000+ point levels; Mech is King - except for Tau and Eldar because their Transports cost too much. So, yes.

I don't see how to mech up Codex Marines, unless you're building around scouts and taking Land Speeder Storms ... which is a very fragile list.

The problem isn't the cost of the transports, but the fact that the squad has to be roughly at least 200 points to avoid under-equipped syndrome. 470 points on Two Troops choices? Ouch.

I'm not sure about Space Wolves, since I think they can take decent weapons without being forced into ten-man squads? But Codex Marines I can't see it working.

Blood Angels at 500 would be a jump-list, surely. I'm only seeing Foot Guard at that sort of points limit ...

What armies can decently mech up with so few points? :smallconfused:

EDIT: That's not supposed to represent an "I've tried everything in that post" perspective. Just a little train of thought over the factions I've seen most of, leading to that question.

[Talkkno]

What armies can decently mech up with so few points? :smallconfused:
n.

Maybe Tau ironically? They could take two squads of Fire Warriors and devilfish in tow and kit Commander for anti tank?

[Korias]

Maybe Tau ironically? They could take two squads of Fire Warriors and devilfish in tow and kit Commander for anti tank?

Wait a second, Why a Devilfish? You'd be better off taking some Pathfinders to punch through the armor with some Rail Rifles, or am I mistaken? An Anti-Tank Commander with two Fire Warrior Squads is a Shooty List, not a Mobile List.

[Talkkno]

Wait a second, Why a Devilfish? You'd be better off taking some Pathfinders to punch through the armor with some Rail Rifles, or am I mistaken? An Anti-Tank Commander with two Fire Warrior Squads is a Shooty List, not a Mobile List.

Errm Devilfish is a transport, thus it can carry around the fire warriors?....

[Korias]

Errm Devilfish is a transport, thus it can carry around the fire warriors?....

Which is precisely why you don't need it in such a small list. From what it sounds like, the list is going to be a 500 or 750 point game, which means that the board should, at most, be 4x4. So really, you shouldn't be doing much moving around but instead laying down some heavy firepower. This goes for most small lists: Why do people take Transports in small games when their lists focus around the Shooting phase?

[crazedloon]

mech at 500 pts (blood angles)

librarian 100

Assault Squad 120
- razorback

Assault Squad 120
- razorback

Assault Squad 100
- drop pod

landspeeder 50

10 points to spare if you wish you can make that 3 pods and 2 speeders but I think this set up plays better

[Korias]

mech at 500 pts (blood angles)

librarian 100

Assault Squad 120
- razorback

Assault Squad 120
- razorback

Assault Squad 100
- drop pod

landspeeder 50

10 points to spare if you wish you can make that 3 pods and 2 speeders but I think this set up plays better


... Assault Squads. In tanks. I'm sorry, but WHY? You have Jet Packs. Why are your marines riding in tanks?

[IthilanorStPete]

... Assault Squads. In tanks. I'm sorry, but WHY? You have Jet Packs. Why are your marines riding in tanks?

Protection and a twin-linked heavy bolter/heavy flamer on a Fast chassis. Blood Angel mech is fantastic at pretty much any level of play.

[crazedloon]

... Assault Squads. In tanks. I'm sorry, but WHY? You have Jet Packs. Why are your marines riding in tanks?

because for the cost of little more than 1 marine I get AV 11 and a TL heavy bolter.


Take the same list and swap the vehicles for jump infantry.

librarian 100

Assault Squad 118
6x

Assault Squad 118
6x

Assault Squad 100
5x

landspeeder 50

which would you prefer to see across the board (also which do you think would win more often?)

[Korias]

also which do you think would win more often?

That would really depend. If you were going up against a high-shooty list, then I would expect the Infantry to win, but only if the Jumpers could Deepstrike in. Even then, I would still be unhappy to play against a "Crimson Furies" build, in which every possible unit has a jump pack, and limits the troops down to two Five-man squads. This gives 30 Assault Marines that one can bum rush around the board with.

Then again, this is because I primarily play shooty armies. Dark Angels and Tau, specifically. So when it comes down to it, the further away you keep the troops, the better it is for my side of the board. Unless your Necrons. They're... different.

[Ninja Chocobo]

That would really depend. If you were going up against a high-shooty list, then I would expect the Infantry to win, but only if the Jumpers could Deepstrike in.

Don't deep strike jump pack assault troops.
It's just not a smart idea.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Don't deep strike jump pack assault troops.
It's just not a smart idea.

I dunno, Blood Angels can make a decent list out of deep striking Assault marines armed with Meltaguns and bringing a Librarian with them, seeing as it leads to an armour-shredding alpha strike.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I dunno, Blood Angels can make a decent list out of deep striking Assault marines armed with Meltaguns and bringing a Librarian with them, seeing as it leads to an armour-shredding alpha strike.

I do that, but then your melta squads aren't really "assault" squads despite being assault marines.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I do that, but then your melta squads aren't really "assault" squads despite being assault marines.

Except that they can then proceed to Assault solidly, making them Assault Marines after all ...

... provided they survive the counter-fire, that is. Which hopefully they won't (filthy cads!)

[Talkkno]

Which is precisely why you don't need it in such a small list. From what it sounds like, the list is going to be a 500 or 750 point game, which means that the board should, at most, be 4x4. So really, you shouldn't be doing much moving around but instead laying down some heavy firepower. This goes for most small lists: Why do people take Transports in small games when their lists focus around the Shooting phase?
Well you said it was a shooty list, not a moblile list, thats what I was confused. Fish of Fury antics don't work?

[EndlessWrath]

I've been debating what things to get to improve my Space marine army. In an attempt to decide, I've been using my current models as proxies of others -gasp!-... It went...alright. Obviously I haven't been playing long, but I enjoy the game and am still learning.

I tried out Pedro Kantor for the second time today. The first game he died to about 75 loota shots (not all of them hit) before he could assault/use his orbital bombardment (after his squad and his transport were shot to death... yeah I rolled badly that game). Today he used the bombardment, but still managed to die to greyknights. He just feels squishy to me, squishier than the other Named HQs. I'm going to try moving him around with Assault terminators with Thunderhammer+storm shields next.
I also tried out Scouts as a troop unit and used Sgt Telion. This worked... alright. I still feel I could do better with them..but this game they were just ineffective. I gave 8 scouts snipers,1 a missile launcher, and then of course Telion had his super bolter. In the end I still had most of them alive, they just didn't kill very much.
I intend to work with Vulkan He'stan soon. Im not sure how effective he'll be for my group...since I don't have enough of the special weapons for chapter tactics... but I'm going to try him anyways. If anyone has any suggestions for adding onto my troop list I'd appreciate it. I'll point out that this is for casual play and the bits on the piece normally don't matter to my friends and I, so long as we tell the other what we're running and provide a troop list.

2x Tactical Marine Squads: 10 men / squad. 1 sergeant, 1 flamer, 1 missile launcher, 7 bolters.
1 Dreadnaught: multi melta + close combat weapon and a storm bolter
1 Captain with a power weapon
1 Chaplain (I normally proxy him into another unit.)
2x Rhino/Razorbacks
1 Terminator squad of 5 units.

I'd prefer to get another dreadnaught or two and maybe a landraider (redeemer?) before using He'stan. That way I have a bit more firepower, making his chapter tactics worthwhile.
-Wrath

[Cheesegear]

I tried out Pedro Kantor for the second time today. The first game he died to about 75 loota shots (not all of them hit) before he could assault/use his orbital bombardment (after his squad and his transport were shot to death... yeah I rolled badly that game). Today he used the bombardment, but still managed to die to greyknights. He just feels squishy to me, squishier than the other Named HQs.

You don't take Pedro for he, himself. You take Pedro for his abilities. Specifically, the ability to count Sternguard as Scoring. And, when doing this, you want at least two, ten-man units (not in Drop Pods).

The secondary thing he does (well, actually its his Primary, but its not what you take him for) is make everyone Stubborn. This is both good and bad, since Combat Tactics really is that good. But, really, as most people know, Stubborn is only really useful in Assault, and only if you lose by a lot.
Typically, the only thing in the Space Marine army that loses Assaults by 'lots' are Scouts. Which you should be taking anyway to offset the cost of your multiple units of Sternguard.

The first 750 points of your Pedro-army, should have this as its skeleton;

Pedro [175]
Sternguard, x10 [250]
Scouts, x10 [150]
Scouts, x10 [150]*

On the Scouts I'd run Rifles and Missile Launcher.

*Maybe, run the second squad as;
x4 Sniper Rifles, x4 Shotguns, Missile Launcher
Sergeant: Power Fist and Shotgun
[175]

Total, 750. Alternatively, run all Rifles, and put the Power Fist on the Sternguard Sergeant. Once you hit 1000 points, you start adding more Sternguard, and taking it down to minimum Scouts.


I'm going to try moving him around with Assault terminators with Thunderhammer+storm shields next.

Don't waste your time. That spot is reserved for He'Stan or Shrike. As a T4 Independent Character that goes last, without Eternal Warrior; Pedro does not belong anywhere near Assault, unless its against 'soft' targets, which you are definitely not running your Hammernators against.


I also tried out Scouts as a troop unit and used Sgt Telion. This worked... alright. I still feel I could do better with them..but this game they were just ineffective. I gave 8 scouts snipers,1 a missile launcher, and then of course Telion had his super bolter. In the end I still had most of them alive, they just didn't kill very much.

Telion is a waste of points.

As for Rifles, depending on what they're up against will depend on how good they are. Are you remembering to force Pinning checks?

Last, Rifles are extremely useful in massive numbers. At least 30. The problem with play-testing units is that most people never learn this because they only take one squad. It's the same with Land Speeders. People generally only play-test with one, when you really need two or three for them to be any good (and when there's more than one, they are that good).


I intend to work with Vulkan He'stan soon. Im not sure how effective he'll be for my group...since I don't have enough of the special weapons for chapter tactics... but I'm going to try him anyways.

He'Stan hangs around with Hammernators. However, this does not mean that you take Hammernators because you have He'Stan, or vice versa. Hammernators become overkill when He'Stan is in the army. And, due to the way he works, He'Stan 'works best' in a unit of Hammernators, making for one, big overkilly unit.

What He'Stan makes useful;
Single Combi-Meltas. Single. Like when you upgrade a Sergeant to have one. He'Stan does next to nothing for Suicide Sternguard with 8+ Combi-Meltas. <4, is probably a number I'd go with.
Combi-Flamers. Yeah!
Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas and/or Heavy Flamers. A lot of competitive players swear by these things, even without He'Stan...I don't. Partly because my army doesn't need them. But, in a He'Stan list they're a bit of amazing.
Flamer and Multi-Melta on a Tactical Squad. Normally, people wouldn't even think of doing this, but, He'Stan changes things.
He makes the Dreadnought you get in AoBR not completely crap.

Things He'Stan makes overkilly (inefficient)...
Ironclad Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods with dual Heavy Flamers.
Suicide Sternguard with...Let's say 5+ Combi-Meltas.
Hammernators.


I'd prefer to get another dreadnaught or two and maybe a landraider (redeemer?) before using He'stan. That way I have a bit more firepower, making his chapter tactics worthwhile.

As your models are now EndlessWrath, He'Stan is useless. And, if you didn't already know, He'Stan does nothing for a Land Raider Redeemer. Thematically appropriate, but tactically useless. I wouldn't bother with one.

Go with a Crusader if you really want a Land Raider. I'm not saying 'Don't by a Land Raider', but, with your army list and models the way they are, it's probably the last thing I'd consider getting.

[EndlessWrath]

You don't take Pedro for he, himself. You take Pedro for his abilities. Specifically, the ability to count Sternguard as Scoring. And, when doing this, you want at least two, ten-man units (not in Drop Pods).

The secondary thing he does (well, actually its his Primary, but its not what you take him for) is make everyone Stubborn. This is both good and bad, since Combat Tactics really is that good. But, really, as most people know, Stubborn is only really useful in Assault, and only if you lose by a lot.
Typically, the only thing in the Space Marine army that loses Assaults by 'lots' are Scouts. Which you should be taking anyway to offset the cost of your multiple units of Sternguard.

The first 750 points of your Pedro-army, should have this as its skeleton;

Pedro [175]
Sternguard, x10 [250]
Scouts, x10 [150]
Scouts, x10 [150]*

On the Scouts I'd run Rifles and Missile Launcher.

*Maybe, run the second squad as;
x4 Sniper Rifles, x4 Shotguns, Missile Launcher
Sergeant: Power Fist and Shotgun
[175]

Total, 750. Alternatively, run all Rifles, and put the Power Fist on the Sternguard Sergeant. Once you hit 1000 points, you start adding more Sternguard, and taking it down to minimum Scouts.



Don't waste your time. That spot is reserved for He'Stan or Shrike. As a T4 Independent Character that goes last, without Eternal Warrior; Pedro does not belong anywhere near Assault, unless its against 'soft' targets, which you are definitely not running your Hammernators against.



Telion is a waste of points.

As for Rifles, depending on what they're up against will depend on how good they are. Are you remembering to force Pinning checks?

Last, Rifles are extremely useful in massive numbers. At least 30. The problem with play-testing units is that most people never learn this because they only take one squad. It's the same with Land Speeders. People generally only play-test with one, when you really need two or three for them to be any good (and when there's more than one, they are that good).



He'Stan hangs around with Hammernators. However, this does not mean that you take Hammernators because you have He'Stan, or vice versa. Hammernators become overkill when He'Stan is in the army. And, due to the way he works, He'Stan 'works best' in a unit of Hammernators, making for one, big overkilly unit.

What He'Stan makes useful;
Single Combi-Meltas. Single. Like when you upgrade a Sergeant to have one. He'Stan does next to nothing for Suicide Sternguard with 8+ Combi-Meltas. <4, is probably a number I'd go with.
Combi-Flamers. Yeah!
Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas and/or Heavy Flamers. A lot of competitive players swear by these things, even without He'Stan...I don't. Partly because my army doesn't need them. But, in a He'Stan list they're a bit of amazing.
Flamer and Multi-Melta on a Tactical Squad. Normally, people wouldn't even think of doing this, but, He'Stan changes things.
He makes the Dreadnought you get in AoBR not completely crap.

Things He'Stan makes overkilly (inefficient)...
Ironclad Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods with dual Heavy Flamers.
Suicide Sternguard with...Let's say 5+ Combi-Meltas.
Hammernators.



As your models are now EndlessWrath, He'Stan is useless. And, if you didn't already know, He'Stan does nothing for a Land Raider Redeemer. Thematically appropriate, but tactically useless. I wouldn't bother with one.

Go with a Crusader if you really want a Land Raider. I'm not saying 'Don't by a Land Raider', but, with your army list and models the way they are, it's probably the last thing I'd consider getting.

Yeah.. I forgot redeemer does flamestorm not heavy flamers. My bad. As for the land raider... I'm looking for more troops before land raider. Also...since we tend not to care about the bits when we play, what type of landraider I get doesn't matter so much...since I can switch it between the two whenever I play a game. The units I want before land raider? Specifically Techmarine + more terms. I do want to get a scout squad or two, and I want to get a better HQ. I like my Captain... just want something else. I'm rather tired of playing my chaplain. I didn't add to the list my proxied Predators... since I figured people would be miffed by it. I do use toy tanks (same size as the rhino.) as predators. Usually run T-link lascannon. Last game I did one lascannon and left the auto cannons on the other. I'm also considering putting sponsons on the one with the autocannon, have it focus on infantry and the lascannon can be mobile enough to hit Vehicles or heavies.
As for the rest. Telion's useless? I imagine a pinning weapon at BS 6 with rending and two shots is rather good... plus he can choose to allocate the wounds he deals. Which I thought was another great thing. Giving my Rocket BS 6 wasn't bad either. Am I mistaken in this?
I'm not going to abuse He'stans ability by making practically everything meltas or flamers. But I'd like more than two or three if I'm going to spend the points (and $$$) on him. Like... If I keep standard dreadnaught, Drop pod him in, I'd change out the storm bolter for a Heavy-flamer. Or even in defending I liked using the flamer.
Pedro running with hammernators I thought would be good. Hammers knock init of units they wound down to 1? so they go same time as Kantor. Right? I mean, I know they'll still focus on Kantor and probably take him out since he only has 3+/4+ saves..instead of terms 2+/3+. Just seemed decent idea to me. I guess he just feels Assaulty because of his gun. I know, assault weapons can also be used to move and shoot, avoiding enemy melees while pouring out shots at full range.

Question... If you use Auxiliary grenade launcher on a captain, do you shoot both his gun and the grenade launcher? or just either or. I'm unfamiliar with that...Same question applies to combi weapons. I know they're one shot. are they, one shot + shots with bolter?

[crazedloon]

Don't waste your time. That spot is reserved for He'Stan or Shrike. As a T4 Independent Character that goes last, without Eternal Warrior; Pedro does not belong anywhere near Assault, unless its against 'soft' targets, which you are definitely not running your Hammernators against.

I just thought I might point out that having him in the unit is indeed silly, however having him join the unit while they are in the land raider (which they should have if you are running him with them) when the Terminators get out he chills in the raider a laughs as his bubble of awesome still effects the Termies

over kill yes but if you want to run the squad and him this is how you use him.

[Cheesegear]

...GW is lucky shipping is so G*d damned expensive. Now that AUD > USD, I was fully set for an online spendathon over at the US Mail Order, because for some reason, even though the AUD is amazing right now, nothing is cheaper. :smallmad:

However, the absurd shipping costs I would pay if I were to order from US Mail Order, I can almost see why things cost so much in AUD. But, I thought corporate shipping worked differently? Maybe not.

[Klose_the_Sith]

...GW is lucky shipping is so G*d damned expensive. Now that AUD > USD, I was fully set for an online spendathon over at the US Mail Order, because for some reason, even though the AUD is amazing right now, nothing is cheaper. :smallmad:

However, the absurd shipping costs I would pay if I were to order from US Mail Order, I can almost see why things cost so much in AUD. But, I thought corporate shipping worked differently? Maybe not.

Lol, Maelstrom games :smallwink:

Except of course it's *still* cheaper to buy in Euro's than it is to buy in USD ...

[Ninja Chocobo]

He makes the Dreadnought you get in AoBR not completely crap.

Now, I ran a codex that had no melta weapons so I might have the wrong perception, but it seems to be that a MM Dreadnought with a Drop Pod would be pretty friggin' useful, considering an Assault Cannon will only Rend once every like two shooting phases.
Not saying you're wrong (like normal), just wanting to know the reasoning.

Lol, Maelstrom games :smallwink:

Except of course it's *still* cheaper to buy in Euro's than it is to buy in USD ...

But, it's the same price. That just changes what's displayed.

[Klose_the_Sith]

But, it's the same price. That just changes what's displayed.

Oh is that so?

Let's have a look at the new box of Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors (http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gwk_40k_del_trp_102_000)

13.50 in British Pounds
14.99 in Euros
22.41 in USD

Now, via http://www.xe.com/ucc/
13.50 GBP = 21.6242 AUD (1 AUD = 0.624299 GBP)
14.99 EUR = 20.9746 AUD (1 AUD = 0.714673 EUR)
22.41 USD = 22.0829 AUD (1 AUD = 1.01481 USD)

Now admittedly, the prices are clustered a lot more closely together than they were a few months ago, but the Euro price is still a dollar cheaper ... and if you're scabbing exchange rates online that dollar probably means a lot to you :smalltongue:

[Ninja Chocobo]

Oh is that so?

Mate.
Read the fine print.

What currency will my order be placed in?

Your currency will be placed in British Pounds Sterling - you can of course view the cost of an item in two other currencies, US Dollar and Euro, by clicking the relevant flag under the basket, but this is for information purposes only and is only a rough calculation. Don't worry though, you will pay the correct price in Pounds Sterling!

[Klose_the_Sith]

Mate.
Read the fine print.

Interesting, then, that last time I ordered from Maelstrom I paid the Euro price of the day and not the Sterling price :smallconfused:

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, perhaps this should be obvious to me somewhere, but I'm not finding it. If I want to select a transport vehicle (in my case a Chimera, as I'm playing Guard) as a non-dedicated transport (say I want to put a heavy weapons or special weapons squad in it, when their entries in the army list don't say they can take a dedicated transport), can I actually do that, and if so does it take a spot on the force organization chart? The entry on dedicated transports in the Imperial Guard codex just says what to do if I do take them as dedicated transports, and the core rulebook is silent on the matter, at least in the rules for transport vehicles.

[Incomp]

You take chimeras, IIRC, as upgrades for your squads. This makes them dedicated transports. However, thing is, dedicated transports no longer are as restricted as they once were. You're free to pick up other squads with a dedicated transport, and what's more, you don't have to start with the transport holding the squad that "owns" it. The only issue is you can not start with a squad which the transport is not dedicated to inside of it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, but if I'm mechanizing my entire army (which I am) I want the squad a Chimera "belongs" to in the Chimera. :smalltongue: That really doesn't answer my question, which is: Can I just spend the 55 points to buy a Chimera without dedicating it to anything?

Complicating the issue (or perhaps simplifying it, depending on how you read it), Terminators can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport in the Codex: Space Marines army list, even though it is decidedly not listed under the Dedicated Transports entry in the list. Presumably, they can also be bought separately. (Incidentally, it's not as important to me since I'm not playing Marines, but if a Terminator squad takes a Land Raider as a dedicated transport, does it not take up a heavy support slot? Hilarious, if so.)

[Klose_the_Sith]

Yeah, but if I'm mechanizing my entire army (which I am) I want the squad a Chimera "belongs" to in the Chimera. :smalltongue: That really doesn't answer my question, which is: Can I just spend the 55 points to buy a Chimera without dedicating it to anything?

No.


Complicating the issue (or perhaps simplifying it, depending on how you read it), Terminators can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport in the Codex: Space Marines army list, even though it is decidedly not listed under the Dedicated Transports entry in the list. Presumably, they can also be bought separately. (Incidentally, it's not as important to me since I'm not playing Marines, but if a Terminator squad takes a Land Raider as a dedicated transport, does it not take up a heavy support slot? Hilarious, if so.)

If a Terminator squad takes it as a dedicated transport then no, it does not count towards your Heavy Support limit. It can also be bought on its own because it isn't solely a dedicated transport option.

[Renegade Paladin]

So there's no way for a techpriest to catch a ride without carjacking someone. Bloody wonderful; the guy who takes care of all the vehicles can't have one? :smallannoyed:

[Klose_the_Sith]

So there's no way for a techpriest to catch a ride without carjacking someone. Bloody wonderful; the guy who takes care of all the vehicles can't have one? :smallannoyed:

That is regrettably true, yes. He can't even start the game in someone else's ride because of the dedicated transport rules - he'd have to clamber inside during game time.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Got my Dark Eldar book I pre-ordered in the post today, along with a few boxes so I can make:


Archon
Agoniser, Clone-field, Ghostplate Armour, splinter pistol
110 points

9 Wyches
shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix with phantasm grenade laucher and agoniser
140 points
Raider with shadowfield and splinter racks
80 points

10 Kabalite Warriors
blaster, splinter cannon, sybarite with agoniser
160 points

Yeah, so about 500 points. I have Lelith too but a 750 point list with 300 points on HQs is a bit dumb.



I'll have to buy another raider and some incubi at some point, but part of me is willing to wait for 4 or so months until they release a battleforce, since I have a lot of other armies to work on.

Trueborn look pretty nasty now that I've seen their options, as do Scourges. You can basically turn either of them into high mobility short-ranged devastator squads. Trueborn are 3-10 and can have 4 special weapons and 2 heavy weapons.

Its kind of weird how the part of the Dark Eldar army that has the most slot-competition is heavy support. I want 2 ravagers but I want a few fighters and Chronos as well.

[Closet_Skeleton]

double post

[TheThan]

Havent gotten my book yet.

I’ve got a bunch of DE so I don’t really plan on getting a lot.

I need an archon, and I’ll probably get some incubi and some mandrakes (those models are so badass!).

I’ve got:
20 wyches
30 warriors (I’ve actually got more warriors than that, but that’s what I’ve got ready for use.)
7 scourges
6 transports
16 bikes (which always die, I usually bring 8)
some Hamuculi and grotesques
the old school Lilith model
Kruella the vile model (two actually)
And some random other stuff I’m proxing as HQ choices

I ought to be more or less good, at the very least i've got my Troops, transports and probably my elites covered.

[Octopus Jack]

Time to start working on a list for my Urien Rakarth menagerie of wonderful creations army...

[Closet_Skeleton]

You could make a decent army out of that.

Bikes now get special weapons for every 3, so groups of 9 would be better than 8.

The Lhaemean from the Court of the Archon says "any poisoned weapons carried by the Archon are upgraded to wound on 2+. It does not say "when in the unit" or "as long as the Lhaemean is alive". The court of the archon also has no minimum squad size. I have a warrior converted into an archon with agoniser and splinter pistol (wanted a female one so I couldn't use the metal one). So as far as I can see you could just buy 1 Lhaemean and stick her in reserve and have you Archon with her 2+ wounding pistol and 5 2+ wounding WS7 I7 power weapon attacks in a differant unit.

I want some beastmasters. They get the Clawed Fiend from the 3rd edition rulebook now. In fact, beastmaster units and Court of the Archon are a good place to just convert random stuff or call backs to old editions in you army.

If you take Sliscus the Serpent, then you can have

6 Kabalite Trueborn with 4 shardcarbines, 2 splinter cannons in a venom with nightshield
177 points

20 shots poisoned on 3+ with 18" range.

The shadowfield specifically has no effect on weapons that are already range 6", so melta pistols won't find themselves range 0 all of a sudden.

[crazedloon]

The Lhaemean from the Court of the Archon says "any poisoned weapons carried by the Archon are upgraded to wound on 2+. It does not say "when in the unit" or "as long as the Lhaemean is alive". The court of the archon also has no minimum squad size. I have a warrior converted into an archon with agoniser and splinter pistol (wanted a female one so I couldn't use the metal one). So as far as I can see you could just buy 1 Lhaemean and stick her in reserve and have you Archon with her 2+ wounding pistol and 5 2+ wounding WS7 I7 power weapon attacks in a differant unit.
doesn't work. The Lhaemean was one of those cool ideas which was not thought through. The only poison weapon the Archon can have is the pistol (the agoniser wounds on 4+ but is not a poison weapon)

Also your Lord would be better fit carrying the blaster instead of the pistol.



6 Kabalite Trueborn with 4 shardcarbines, 2 splinter cannons in a venom with nightshield
177 points

20 shots poisoned on 3+ with 18" range.

The shadowfield specifically has no effect on weapons that are already range 6", so melta pistols won't find themselves range 0 all of a sudden.

Venom only holds 5 (and only the unit that the duke is with gets the increased to wound) and the trueborn are better used for their 4 blasters in a 4 man unit with a Haemonculus giving them feel no pain for when their venom blows up.

[TheThan]

I used to deck my archon out with a power weapon, additional CC weapon, combat drugs, and a shadow field. I like 6 s4 attacks on the charge with power weapons and a 2+ invulnerable save. I rocked so much stuff in close combat it was ridiculous. I could take down space wolf heroes as well as just about anything else that was stupid enough to get within charge range (and when you’re zipping around in a transport its surprisingly far).

I’m using Phoenix lord Jain Jar as my HQ. Got her with the army. So I decided to make her my archon, she was missing her left arm but I found a space wolf power sword fits there perfectly. Now that she’s painted its hard to tell it doesn’t belong.

I have no idea how my army is going to change with the new codex though.

[hamishspence]

doesn't work. The Lhaemean was one of those cool ideas which was not thought through. The only poison weapon the Archon can have is the pistol (the agoniser wounds on 4+ but is not a poison weapon)

Also your Lord would be better fit carrying the blaster instead of the pistol.

Still, at 10 pts per model, Lhamaeans are pretty cheap.

[crazedloon]

the court is one of the cool options which would be fun to model but would never actually be worth it. At minimum the unit will cost 75 points and at that minimum they will do very little that an equivalent point value of any other unit could not do.

Lhamaeans let you wound on 2 with your pistol: for the 5 points more you can equip your archon with a blaster which wounds on 2 can hurt tanks and has ap 2

Ur-Ghul's get str 5 hits on the charge: lacking a save and only t 3 means plenty of things will ignore the feel no pain and kill these guys in droves

Medusae have a nice potentially high Str low AP weapon : too random to depend on and can be emulated (more consistently) with liquifier guns which come on wracks, haemonculus, grotesques

Sslyth perhaps the only good model in the unit with high S/T and a save with feel no pain make them tanks with multiple wounds: Limited number and high cost make them not worth the other 3 guys you have to pay for and they can be emulated (or done better) by Grotesques

[Closet_Skeleton]

Played a 500 point four way free for all game. I took my dark eldar, everyone else took cheese after they decided they should only need 1 compulsory troops choice because it was 500 points.

One guy had Lysander, 5 scouts and some hammernators

One guy was probably cheating in that he had a redeemer, Logan and some wolf guard.

The other guy had the Swarmlord, a zoanthrope and 30 termagaunts.

I got rerolls to wound from my drugs.

On the first turn I send 9 wyches and the Archon up against the termagaunts. 2 passed their fearless saves and survived, keeping me in combat where I was safer anyway. Then the Swarmlord charged.

I managed to survive in combat with the swarmlord for three turns until I had just the Archon and the Hekatrix left, and then I killed it. Without having softened it up with shooting at all.

Then my Archon and Hekatrix charged Lysander and the Archon got killed but hte Hekatrix passed her save. I think they killed about 2 terminators first. Then the wolf guard terminators charged in and killed the remaining terminators and the game ended due to the Imperial Fists player having to leave and it being about turn 5 anyway.

My warriors didn't get to do much, they shot at the scouts, then got in the wych's raider and headed off to assault the scouts. The raider got immobalised but they got out and assaulted the scouts and did pretty terribly due to needing 5s to wound and then got killed my Logan.

So the Space Wolves player won, because he was obviously in hindsight overpointed and kept his army in a land raider until almost everyone else was dead.

Agonisers rock, as do snare nets. Pity you only get one of each per box, because currently my Sybarite has to make do with a power sword (which I'll probably use as a venom blade more often)

[Arcanoi]

Ouch. And it's not as though the guy just made a mistake, either. He was more than a hundred points overdrawn at the minimum.

[hamishspence]

the court is one of the cool options which would be fun to model but would never actually be worth it. At minimum the unit will cost 75 points and at that minimum they will do very little that an equivalent point value of any other unit could not do.

Lhamaeans let you wound on 2 with your pistol: for the 5 points more you can equip your archon with a blaster which wounds on 2 can hurt tanks and has ap 2


You probably wouldn't buy the Lhamaeans for that, but for being 10 pt models with Poisoned (2+) knives and pistols. A small Court in a Venom with an Archon might dish out a reasonable amount of hurt.

[crazedloon]

You probably wouldn't buy the Lhamaeans for that, but for being 10 pt models with Poisoned (2+) knives and pistols. A small Court in a Venom with an Archon might dish out a reasonable amount of hurt.

it would be 1 of each type of model (being the smallest you can make it) and 75 points for the unit. for the same (or close to the same points) you can have
4 incubi (13 points more) has 2 less attacks but all power weapons
4 bloodbrides (23 points less) 2 more attacks with drugs available and a 4+ invuln
harlequins (3 points cheeper) 2 more attacks and 5+ invulnerable

each of these units has other options which make them even better and each of them do better than a minimum unit with an archon

[Closet_Skeleton]

9 Bloodbrides with agoniser, grenade launcher and triple shardnets in a raider would make a pretty good bodyguard for any character. Or maybe just throw in a Haemonculus to buff them.

With the models I have and the ones I have on order I should be able to make


Archon
Agoniser, Clone-field, Ghostplate Armour, splinter pistol, combat drugs and phantasm grenade launcher
145 points

Lelith
175 points

Elites
4 Incubi
Klaivex with demiklaives, bloodstone and onslaught
Venom with two splinter cannons, chain snares and night shields
80 points

9 Wyches
shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix with phantasm grenade laucher and agoniser
140 points
Raider with shadowfield and chain snares
75 points

10 Kabalite Warriors
blaster, splinter cannon, sybarite with agoniser
140 points
raider with night shields and splinter racks
80 points

total 1000 points


But I'd rather wait a while until i can buy some more models and not use 2 HQs in this few points.

[Razaele]

Pedro running with hammernators I thought would be good. Hammers knock init of units they wound down to 1? so they go same time as Kantor. Right? I mean, I know they'll still focus on Kantor and probably take him out since he only has 3+/4+ saves..instead of terms 2+/3+. Just seemed decent idea to me. I guess he just feels Assaulty because of his gun. I know, assault weapons can also be used to move and shoot, avoiding enemy melees while pouring out shots at full range.

But the problem with this is the fact that Hammernators will also be attacking at Initiative 1, meaning more often than not they will be attacking last as well. Kantor will be dead long before your the opponent gets knocked down to Initiative 1. And yes, the Arrow of Dorn is an Assault weapon. That does not necessarily mean that you should Assault.



Question... If you use Auxiliary grenade launcher on a captain, do you shoot both his gun and the grenade launcher? or just either or. I'm unfamiliar with that...Same question applies to combi weapons. I know they're one shot. are they, one shot + shots with bolter?

No, I'm afraid that you only ever get to fire 1 ranged weapon per Shooting Phase.

[Arcanoi]

No, I'm afraid that you only ever get to fire 1 ranged weapon per Shooting Phase.

Unless you are a monstrous creature.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Unless you are a monstrous creature.

Or a bike with multiple riders.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Or a bike with multiple riders.

Or a Techmarine/Master of the Forge with a Servo Harness.

[MeatShield#236]

Or a Techmarine/Master of the Forge with a Servo Harness.

Or a Tau battlesuit with a multitraker

[IthilanorStPete]

Or a Tau battlesuit with a multitraker

Or a Terminator with a cyclone missile launcher.

[Incomp]

Or...

or...

or...

CHUCK NORRIS

[Lycan 01]

Or a Deff Dred.

Piloted by Chuck Norris.

[Psychotic]

Question... If you use Auxiliary grenade launcher on a captain, do you shoot both his gun and the grenade launcher? or just either or. I'm unfamiliar with that...Same question applies to combi weapons. I know they're one shot. are they, one shot + shots with bolter?




No, I'm afraid that you only ever get to fire 1 ranged weapon per Shooting Phase.

Actually, the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher says that you may fire it in addition to any other weapons you're shooting. Combi-Weapons are either the special weapon or the bolter, not both.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Actually, the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher says that you may fire it in addition to any other weapons you're shooting. Combi-Weapons are either the special weapon or the bolter, not both.

Oh, is that what this was about? :smallredface:

Yeah, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher lets you fire off another ranged weapon, but unfortunately a Combi-Bolter does not.

[TheThan]

I got my codex and put together a 1500ish point list.

Archon with trueborn warrior bodyguard unit, decked out for close combat. Warriors had pistols and CC weapons. archon had huskblade, shadow field, and combat drugs.

2 squads of bloodbrides with three razor flails (which I forgot about)

2 squads of regular kabalite warriors

all of these were in stripped down transports

9 bikes

1 razorwing fighter with shatterfield missiles.


Played a friends' space wolves. The game was table quarters with 3 objectives. I won initiative and deployed, he stole the initiative from me. I rolled +1 attack on combat drugs. He knocked my transport with the the archon in it down with the first shot (devastator squads suck to fight), and he failed his invul save jumping out of the transport. He then manged to cripple one raider with warriors in it. Naturally I was sorta annoyed about the whole turn of events.

My turn I managed to snipe some devastators with dark lances (he had no tanks to shoot at). then I managed to kill about half a unit of bloodclaws with a few shatterfield missiles. My HQ and bodyguard hoofed it into cover and sat there for a turn. I moved my bikes closer and shot them at the unit I blasticated with missiles.

Next turn he popped another transport and assaulted the warriors in it, which brought his guys partially into the terrain my HQ was hiding in, but doing so brought him close enough for me to drop some wytches on him. They generated 50 attacks on the charge. But space marines are space marines and they actually survived it, mainly due to my inability to roll 5s. I assaulted with my HQ as well figureing the two units would take it out in no time. But my HQ failed me yet again and rolled all ones on his attacks, (which is like 6 attacks). He then got promptly stomped by Arjack. Eventually I did kill him and the unit. But it took FAR too many attacks and too many rounds to do it.

Another unit of wytches thinned down the squad I bombarded earlier, taking them down to the HQ choice (grimnar I think), and ONE bloodclaw. That one sat on one objective as the HQ broke off and annihilated a unit o warriors I was going to use to try to peel him off the objective.

He managed to kill my flyer, mostly because I’ve never used one before (proxied a Valkyrie for it).

Considering I just got the book and built an army in like 10 minutes, I think I did ok. I didn’t make any huge tactical mistakes. Stealing the initiative also really kicked my butt as he had a free round of shooting with me having no saves. I know I can do better, I’ve just gotta find where the power is and figure out how to use it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Argh. I discovered halfway putting through one of my Chimeras that the piece comprising the top of the vehicle didn't fill the mold all the way when they were making it, and it got through QC. One of the gunports is a gaping irregular hole rather than what it's supposed to be. :smallannoyed:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I got my codex and put together a 1500ish point list.

Archon with trueborn warrior bodyguard unit, decked out for close combat. Warriors had pistols and CC weapons. archon had huskblade, shadow field, and combat drugs.

Soul Trap seems like the best thing for synergy with the huskblade, a S6 huskblade is a lot better than a S3 one. But its also a liability if you're not fighting massed IC armies like Blood Angels.

I wound throw in some assault weapons onto the trueborn when you have the bits.


2 squads of bloodbrides with three razor flails (which I forgot about)

2 squads of regular kabalite warriors

all of these were in stripped down transports

I wound rather have 1 squad of regular wyches and 1 squad of bloodbrides, just to give you the scoring troops. I also prefer shardnets, but since they're useless against 1 attack enemies I would take tripple nets on the bloodbrides and flails and gauntlets on the warriors.


1 razorwing fighter with shatterfield missiles.


I like the idea of Razorwings but find it annoying that there isn't an AP3 missile for them. Their missiles all feel too similar, you basically choose between wounding on 2+ from S6, wounding on 2+ from poison or wounding on 2+ from S7 with a reroll but no AP.

I had the exact same "can't roll 5s" problem against space marines.

So far dark eldar seem pretty balanced to be honest. More like the tyranid codex than the space wolf one.

[Razaele]

Actually, the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher says that you may fire it in addition to any other weapons you're shooting. Combi-Weapons are either the special weapon or the bolter, not both.

Huh. I never realized that. It is a rather expensive upgrade, but in lieu of this I'm kind of tempted to take them now.:smalltongue:

[TheThan]

Ok so today I realized that I could take a squad of harlequins and throw them in a transport…. Well kinda.
Since they get no transport option you sorta have to a bit sneaky, you have to take Vect as your HQ and have him join the squad of harlequins, so they can ride around with him in his transport. It seems very amusing, but I’m not sure if its worth the big chunk of points. Though I will admit the idea of a group of harlequins working as vect'’ bodyguards is very entertaining.

I’ve noticed the trend in most of the major faction codexes (guard, Space marines, orcs, tyranids etc) is that they are very well balanced, both in regards to what you can do with the army and in comparison to other codexes. Some codexes like space wolves and blood angels seem like they have a bit of an edge, but they’re specialist marines and are a sub faction as well and not every space marine player is going to be using them.

Personally I think that this balance is very good and healthy for the game.

[Closet_Skeleton]

All you need to do to give harlequins a transport is give one to another unit and then move the harlequins into it.

But yeah, Vect also works.

The fluff for the venom says that they sometimes drop lone figures, but independant characters can't take them.

[Psychotic]

But yeah, Vect also works.


But is 440 points for Vect and his flying Pimp-Mobile worth it to transport Harlequins when Wyches effectively fill the same role? I would imagine no.

[Incomp]

Maybe not, but it's still waaaaay cooler.

[TheThan]

But is 440 points for Vect and his flying Pimp-Mobile worth it to transport Harlequins when Wyches effectively fill the same role? I would imagine no.


Maybe not, but it's still waaaaay cooler.

That’s sorta my point of view, its probably not worth the points sink, but its pretty darn cool.

[EndlessWrath]

Thanks for the help guys. Just one question >.<


But the problem with this is the fact that Hammernators will also be attacking at Initiative 1, meaning more often than not they will be attacking last as well. Kantor will be dead long before your the opponent gets knocked down to Initiative 1.
I'm confused so please remedy this for me
Why are terminators with hammers and storm shields attacking at init 1? I thought they had init 4 unless they're other termi's with power fists since the power fist reduces you to init 1. So I'm confused. If your saying they go init 1 along with kantor because kantors init is 1... I thought you did combat based on initiative of the model, not initiative of the squad. So units with the highest go forth and so on and so on. Like.. a captain with a space marine tactical squad assaulting.. captain goes first (assuming highest init), then tactical squad goes next. and so on and so forth. For times sake you'd have a single player roll all the initiatives he can... like ork boyz versus a captain and tactical squad, space marine player just rolls all his attacks, then the boys do. :smallconfused: Obviously im ranting so I'll stop. Someone explain?

[Kzickas]

Thunderhammers make you init 1 just like powerfists

[Incomp]

A thunderhammer is, for all intents and purposes, a power fist; doubles your strength, makes you I1. However, it has the added (and oft-forgotten) bonus of making models wounded but not killed (rare in these days of easy instant death) attack at I1 as well.

To summarize: Kantor fights at I1 due to his powerfist. Hammernators fight at I1 because of their thunderhammers.

[Klose_the_Sith]

And we're back with "Klose tries out some different things"

Codex Marines - 1,000 Points

HQ:

Librarian 140
Terminator Armour + Storm Shield
Gate, Machine Curse

Troops:

Tactical Squad 235
Melta, Multi-Melta
Sergeant w/Power Fist
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad 235
Melta, Multi-Melta
Sergeant w/Power Fist
+ Rhino

Heavy Support:

Vindicator 115

Vindicator 115

Devastator Squad 160
4 Missile Launchers
Sergeant w/Combi-Plas

Alright people. I know. Two troop choices with almost no upgrades and three heavy support. I should be executed.

If it goes up to 1250 then I add in another Rhino-based Tac squad and some upgrades, though. That's a pretty nice points limit to play it at ... and probably a better list, but 1,000 was the original mental exercise so lets start there.

What you've got is a series of metal coffins who pop their smoke launchers and denied flank away. In the middle of the board type area goes the Dev squad with the Librarian, who acts as an auxiliary crowd-control for tanks by auto-glancing excess ones. In the event of an incredibly likely crisis he rapidly redeploys them with gate.

It's just an idea I had today (rapid redeployment Devastators) and I'm pretty sure I've had worse list ideas. What're the thoughts?

EDIT: Thing I'm likely to do -

Drop the Siege shields to turn the Tac Squads into pure meltas and put a combi-plasma on the Dev Sergeant.

Damn ill conceived first drafts.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Don't really see the point. Your devastators have 48" range, why are you spending 140 points to let them runaway? You want rocket launchers that can move? For 180 points you could have 2 landspeeder typhoons. For less points you could run tripple vindicators.

What's the point in giving the librarian terminator armour? You apparently don't want him in combat. For the price of that armour and shield your tac squads could have lascannons or 2 plasma weapons.

He has to shoot the machine curse at the same target as his unit. If you have 4 rocket launchers you don't care about some extra auto-glance.

Your army seems to focused on killing mech marine armies.

The tactical squads would probably be better as:
razorback, missile launcher, melta gun, power fist 240 points.

Take the terminator armour off the librarian and he can run around with the tactical squad in the razorback and actually help use his machine curse to help out something that needs help. Then they can Gate to safety if their razorback dies, or you can give him null zone to help out your vindicators against daemons and hammernators.

But don't trust me on that because I run my tactical squads with no transports and a biker priest for every 2.

I just noticed the most hilarious thing ever. Nightshields vs Conversion Beamer. Even more hilarious with the old DE codex.

Whenever someone spots my biker priests they always seem to act surprised and say stuff like "why is there only one bike in your army?". Possibly made even more noticable due to the fact that he's white and in a sea of red.

I played a 1000 point game against Imperial fists. It got cut short.

I had:

Librarian Brother Zacharias, jump pack, smite, unleash rage
Furioso Brother Captain Orlando, blood talons
5 deathcompany, bolt guns
My 2 assault marine units
Priest on Bike

He had
Devastators (melta, rocket lancher, heavy bolter, lascannon, so yeah...)
Tactical squad with flamer and rocket launcher, sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword x2
Lyander
7 hammernators

So yeah, his army was nicely painted but the unit loadouts were out of the box and terrible.

He had the first turn. Everyone moved forwards except for the Devastators, who shot at Orlando with a krak missile that bounced off and a lascannon that missed.

My turn, the deathcompany ran forwards and shot at a nearby tactical squad and missed. Orlando shot his storm bolter and did nothing. I moved my assault squads forwards a bit but kept out of range.

His turn 2, they ran forwards again. The devastators fired at the deathcompany but I had cover so I was safe.

My turn 2, the flamer assault squad with priest fired at a tactical squad and killed 2. Then they assaulted and killed another 6 and suffered 1 casualty.

The deathcompany charged the tactical squad and killed 1, suffering one casualty.

Orlando, Zarachiel and the melta assault squad killed 2 terminators with melta guns and smite. Then they charged, Orlando killing 2 terminators, giving him 2 extra attacks, one of which killed another terminator, giving him another attack that got saved. The sergeant and Zarachiel attacked Lysander, dealing 1 wound. The rest of the squad hit the terminators, leaving 1 left alive to hit back and kill one assault marine. Lysander went for Orlando, smashing the cheese out of him by destroying a blood talon.

I won every combat but one, but he was stubborn so nothing happened.

His turn 3.

The devastators charged the deathcompany, but did nothing. The deathcompany killed one or two tactical marines at most.

The flamer assault squad cut the tactical squad they were fighting down to 2 men, and suffered a casualty in return.

Zerachiel and the sergeant killed the last hammernator. Lysander killed a regular terminator. Orlando dealt a wound to Lysander.

Then we ran out of time and I won with a single kill point from killing the hammernators, since all the tactical squads technically still have people alive in them.

I think the lessons learned there were pretty obvious.

Don't run tactical marines forwards at assault marines. I think he managed to fire about 10 bolt gun shots all game.

Don't take out of the box tactical marine squads without power weapons.

Don't take out of the box devastator squads that can't fire all their heavy weapons effectively at 1 target.

Furioso with blood talons are cheese until they lose one of them.

Don't fight out your combats in order so that the priest has to consolidate away from helping another combat. (which is about the only mistake I think I made)

Hammernators sometimes die if you hit them with enough stuff. But that's too reliant on the luck of the dice really.

When you can easily kill an enemy HQ unit with 1 attack from Lysander, do so rather than letting me power weapon your last hammernator. He could have turned that into a draw so easily.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Don't really see the point. Your devastators have 48" range, why are you spending 140 points to let them runaway? You want rocket launchers that can move? For 180 points you could have 2 landspeeder typhoons. For less points you could run tripple vindicators.

Except that it doesn't need to be 'running away' and is in some ways more flexible then fast skimmers. Not in the least because it twists player psychology and the inherent element of surprise.

Say I want to contest an objective out of nowhere in the lategame. Or the squad is being advanced on by the enemy and we aren't going to shred them

-> Enter the gateway, deny them any gains.


What's the point in giving the librarian terminator armour? You apparently don't want him in combat. For the price of that armour and shield your tac squads could have lascannons or 2 plasma weapons.

You kidding me? 40 points to turn my lynchpin from 3+ to 2+3+? Always take Terminator Armour and Storm Shield, not in the least because stray wounds can then be allocated to him to be shrugged off.

Lascannons and Plasma Weapons have their place, but those Tac Squads are optimised for popping armour open while in advancing rhinos already. Why would I pay more to make them worse at their job? :smallconfused:


He has to shoot the machine curse at the same target as his unit. If you have 4 rocket launchers you don't care about some extra auto-glance.

Except if there's (gasp) two targets.

Move Librarian 3" (out of coherency)

Glance one, hopefully freezing. Splode the other.


Your army seems to focused on killing mech marine armies.

I actually built it as a response to some recent games against proxied Dark Eldar ...


The tactical squads would probably be better as:
razorback, missile launcher, melta gun, power fist 240 points.

Except that Razorbacks have no firing ports, complicating the whole 'shoot' process of my 'shooty' list ... and single Krak missiles aren't that amazing. Especially not in offensive squads (which these will have to be, as they're my only troops).


Take the terminator armour off the librarian and he can run around with the tactical squad in the razorback and actually help use his machine curse to help out something that needs help.

Except that they don't need his help with their current loadouts.


Then they can Gate to safety if their razorback dies, or you can give him null zone to help out your vindicators against daemons and hammernators.

They'll generally be taking cover saves anyway, Null Zone isn't that great in 1,000 (it's fantastic in higher points, but not that low). Similarly, Hammernators? Horribly wasteful in 1,000, seeing as all your other Marine squads are pricey too.


But don't trust me on that because I run my tactical squads with no transports and a biker priest for every 2.

Well I suppose that's one way to do it :smalltongue:


<Battle Report>

Pretty cool stuff thar :smallwink:

Although his list did make me die inside. I dunno what you meant by out of the box either, he could at least have stuck some plasmas on instead of flamers. Or did he want to be just that fluffy? :smalleek:

Still, doesn't matter too much just so long as you had fun (and explained to him that his squad load-outs were weaaaaaaaaaak).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Except that it doesn't need to be 'running away' and is in some ways more flexible then fast skimmers. Not in the least because it twists player psychology and the inherent element of surprise.

Say I want to contest an objective out of nowhere in the lategame. Or the squad is being advanced on by the enemy and we aren't going to shred them

-> Enter the gateway, deny them any gains.

Skimmers can so that too.



You kidding me? 40 points to turn my lynchpin from 3+ to 2+3+? Always take Terminator Armour and Storm Shield, not in the least because stray wounds can then be allocated to him to be shrugged off.


Lascannons and Plasma Weapons have their place, but those Tac Squads are optimised for popping armour open while in advancing rhinos already. Why would I pay more to make them worse at their job? :smallconfused:

Except they aren't, because they can't shoot and move their only anti-tank weapon. Or assault and disembark with the power fist.

A meltagun would make them better at their job.


Except if there's (gasp) two targets.

Move Librarian 3" (out of coherency)

Glance one, hopefully freezing. Splode the other.

Yeah, now you have a librarian not in a unit. Great.

I actually built it as a response to some recent games against proxied Dark Eldar ...


Except that Razorbacks have no firing ports, complicating the whole 'shoot' process of my 'shooty' list ... and single Krak missiles aren't that amazing. Especially not in offensive squads (which these will have to be, as they're my only troops).

If they're your only troops, don't you want them to be more "defensive?"


Except that they don't need his help with their current loadouts.

Yes they do. They're basically shooting at tanks with 2 rapid firing bolt guns in their current load out, unless the rhino doesn't move.




Similarly, Hammernators? Horribly wasteful in 1,000, seeing as all your other Marine squads are pricey too.

Not always. Depends what the rest of your army is.




Although his list did make me die inside. I dunno what you meant by out of the box either, he could at least have stuck some plasmas on instead of flamers. Or did he want to be just that fluffy? :smalleek:

I think one unit was AoBR, and the other one might have been old ones (which didn't come with no plasma or melta guns), since apparently he stopped playing for a year or so (which is actually shorter than me who until a year ago hadn't really played that often for 5 years).


Still, doesn't matter too much just so long as you had fun (and explained to him that his squad load-outs were weaaaaaaaaaak).

He had to catch the bus, so I didn't really have time to. Might next time I see him. He supposedly has about 6000 points of Imperial Fists, but he might just be taking his only painted ones. Only reason he took that army is because he didn't have any vehicles on him.

Silly 2000 points dark eldar list

HQ
3 Haemonculi, each with hexrifle, 2 with agonisers

2 Haemonculi, hexrifle and flesh gauntlet each

One goes in each unit of warriors

Troops
20 Kabalite Warriors, 2 dark lances, blaster, Sybarite with phantasm grenade launchers, agoniser and splinter pistol
295 points

20 Kabalite Warriors, 2 dark lances, blaster, Sybarite with phantasm grenade launchers, agoniser and splinter pistol
295 points

20 Kabalite Warriors, 2 dark lances, blaster, Sybarite with phantasm grenade launchers, agoniser and splinter pistol
295 points

20 Kabalite Warriors, 2 splinter cannons, shredder, Sybarite with phantasm grenade launchers, agoniser and splinter pistol
255 points

20 Kabalite Warriors, 2 splinter cannons, shredder, Sybarite with phantasm grenade launchers, agoniser and splinter pistol
255 points

Heavy Support
Cronos Parasite Engine, spirit votex
100 points

Cronos Parasite Engine, spirit votex
100 points

Basically take the most mobile and fragile army in the game and turn it into a static shooting wannabe guard list. Sadly it just needs more cover than the board is likely to have.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Skimmers can so that too.

Not through walls.

EDIT: And everyone expects it of them. And they die to a stiff breeze.


Except they aren't, because they can't shoot and move their only anti-tank weapon. Or assault and disembark with the power fist.

A meltagun would make them better at their job.

Oooh, wait. Did I only suggest the upgrade changes?

*Looks at list*

Stupid first drafts ... :smallsigh:


Yeah, now you have a librarian not in a unit. Great.

And? At 2+3+ he can survive a turn of whatever hasn't been shaken/sploded.


If they're your only troops, don't you want them to be more "defensive?"

Playing defensively never seems to work for me, so no :smallwink:


Yes they do. They're basically shooting at tanks with 2 rapid firing bolt guns in their current load out, unless the rhino doesn't move.

See above :smallsigh:


Not always. Depends what the rest of your army is.

Well, you're spending a rough minimum 500 points on your bare-bones troops and HQ, if you want them to be really bad. 600 if you want more from them. Add 200 onto that and you've only got 200 points to cover everything else. Hammernators are one of my favourite units, but I never see them as viable beneath 1250.


I think one unit was AoBR, and the other one might have been old ones (which didn't come with no plasma or melta guns), since apparently he stopped playing for a year or so (which is actually shorter than me who until a year ago hadn't really played that often for 5 years).

Huh. Did they really not used to contain decent specials? That's lame.


He had to catch the bus, so I didn't really have time to. Might next time I see him. He supposedly has about 6000 points of Imperial Fists, but he might just be taking his only painted ones. Only reason he took that army is because he didn't have any vehicles on him.

That is ... a few too many points to be taking such strange choices :smalleek:

[EndlessWrath]

A thunderhammer is, for all intents and purposes, a power fist; doubles your strength, makes you I1. However, it has the added (and oft-forgotten) bonus of making models wounded but not killed (rare in these days of easy instant death) attack at I1 as well.

To summarize: Kantor fights at I1 due to his powerfist. Hammernators fight at I1 because of their thunderhammers.

See I'm looking through the rule book and can't find that... even went under Thunder Hammers :smallconfused:. Maybe I'm just bad at finding things, good news is that even though I didn't know they go at init 1, they go at double strength. so thats cool

[Ogremindes]

See I'm looking through the rule book and can't find that... even went under Thunder Hammers :smallconfused:. Maybe I'm just bad at finding things, good news is that even though I didn't know they go at init 1, they go at double strength. so thats cool

What? Rulebook, pg 42: "A thunder hammer uses the same rules as a power fist." It's the only thing that comes up in the index for thunder hammers, too.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I actually built it as a response to some recent games against proxied Dark Eldar ...

Sorry to go back to a topic but...

Your army list looks pretty darn terrible against Dark Eldar. Dark Eldar do not fear meltas, at all. Dark Eldar fear long ranged mid-strength heavy weapons, not short ranged high penetration ones.

If you're in melta range, the Dark Eldar don't care if you kill their transports.

If you really wanted to kill Dark Eldar, whirlwinds are better than vindicators, but that would be over-specialising.

Nightshields have a good effect on range 24" weapons (demolisher cannons, assault cannons, multi-meltas), a criplling effect on range 12" ones (melta guns) and minimal effect on range 48" weapons (krak missiles, lascannons and autocannons, which all ruin armour 10).

Best anti-Dark Eldar Space Marine list.

HQ
Space Marine Captain
bike, relic blade, storm shield
180 points

Elites
Dreadnought
two twin-linked autocannons
125 points

Dreadnought
two twin-linked autocannons
125 points

Dreadnought
two twin-linked autocannons
125 points

Troops
8 Bikes, 1 attack bike
2 flamers, power fist, multi-melta
300

8 Bikes, 1 attack bike
2 flamers, power fist, multi-melta
300

8 Bikes, 1 attack bike
2 flamers, power fist
290

Heavy Support
Thunderfire cannon
100 points

Thunderfire cannon
100 points

Thunderfire cannon
100 points

total: 1745 points

Even if his guys get feel no pain they'll still lose that against S6 ap5 thunderfire shots. Their poisoned weapons negate the bike's toughness, but in melee their regular troopers will need 6s to wound. Once all their transports are dead bikes can actually outmaneuver most dark eldar units excepting Hellions (who die in droves to bolters and are expensive) and Beastmasters. The dark eldar's only AP3 weapons apart from 2 (a template and a haemonculus item) are S3, so bikes don't need to fear them.

This army is less good against a haemonculus list, but we'll have to wait and see how prominant those are going to be.

Incubi will be more of a problem though.

Alternatively, sniper scout spam will kill raiders just as easily and I know from experiance that dark eldar warriors aren't that good against scouts in melee.


Or maybe not.

To be honest I don't think most space marine armies will find dark eldar that hard to beat.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Sorry to go back to a topic but...

Sorry, but why? :smallconfused:

I wrote this list on my phone as a sudden idea of giving mobility to Devastators - the first draft of it was even worse than this and it's got a long way to go.

Why would criticism be unwelcome?


Your army list looks pretty darn terrible against Dark Eldar. Dark Eldar do not fear meltas, at all. Dark Eldar fear long ranged mid-strength heavy weapons, not short ranged high penetration ones.

Except that it was an 'all-comers' list I wrote, focussed on lessons learnt from Dark Eldar ... but I would probably be better off just trading those Meltas for Plasmaguns anyway, so I'll probably turn it into Plasma guns + somethings. Maybe Heavy Bolters.

And it would have done some serious pain to the Dark Eldar I played. Which, admittedly, is most likely just a symptom of them not being familiar with their units yet.


If you're in melta range, the Dark Eldar don't care if you kill their transports.

Unless if I'm still in my Rhinos and they're denied the assault.


If you really wanted to kill Dark Eldar, whirlwinds are better than vindicators, but that would be over-specialising.

Which in turn makes my list almost worthless against anything else ...


Nightshields have a good effect on range 24" weapons (demolisher cannons, assault cannons, multi-meltas), a criplling effect on range 12" ones (melta guns) and minimal effect on range 48" weapons (krak missiles, lascannons and autocannons, which all ruin armour 10).

Duly noted, but the effect on 24" is mitigated by them always running straight atcha.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I wrote this list on my phone as a sudden idea of giving mobility to Devastators - the first draft of it was even worse than this and it's got a long way to go.

Except that mobile devastators don't work, ever. You can't shoot heavy weapons after using Gate, because it follows the deep strike rules. Closest thing to mobile devastators is Logan Grimnar in a unit of Longfangs and that's so cost inefficient its a joke. You might as well just buy your devastators a rhino.

Attack Bikes
Land Speeders
Obliterators
Dreadnoughts
Predators
Whirlwinds
Vindicators
Terminators (well, Black Templar ones)

Can move and fulfil a devastator roll.

I guess this is kind of the reason why devastators aren't considered that good a unit, at least not at the points you pay for them in the vanilla codex.


Unless if I'm still in my Rhinos and they're denied the assault.

Except that they can still assault you if they kill your rhino with a blast pistol. Not that warriors really want to assault space marines.

But I just intrinsically hate "hide in rhinos" lists. I pretty much agree with Firaeveus Carron in that respect. Rhino Transports are for getting you near the enemy quickly with added safety, not for being crappy pillboxes that only allow 2 models to shoot and even then only if the transport moves no faster than you could have walked anyway. Except of course, if you actually man it up enough to get out of your transports, then you can move 12" and fire your meltagun. Tactical squads are range 24" for a reason. If I want meltas that can move I take bikes, landspeeders or assault marines, because they can actually move more than 6" and fire, or in some cases deep strike.

A lascannon is 10 points on a tactical squad and better than a melta gun against most transports.


Duly noted, but the effect on 24" is mitigated by them always running straight atcha.

Depends really. Only Wyches will want to do that all the time.

My Angels Encarmine army is now more or less finished apart from basing.

Angels Encarmine 4th Company

Brother Librarian Zacharias
Jump Pack, Epistolery, hand flamer, shackle soul, unleash rage, melta bombs
190 points

Honour Guard
Jump Packs, 2 storm shields, company banner, thunder hammer
250 points

Elites
2 Sanguinary Priests
bikes, melta bombs
180 points

Troops
2nd Squad
10 tactical marines, plasma gun, plasma cannon
Brother Sergeant Daniel - Power fist
210 points

3rd Squad
10 tactical marines, plasma gun, lascannon
Brother Sergeant Francesco - Power fist, storm bolter
218 points

7th Squad
10 assault marines, two flamers
Brother Sergeant Bartolomeo - Power fist, hand flamer
235 points

8th Squad
10 assault marines, 2 melta guns
Brother Sergeant Firenze - Power axe, melta bombs, infernus pistol
255 points

The lost
5 deathcompany, bolt guns
100 points

Heavy Support
9th Squad
10 devastator marines, 4 rocket launchers
Brother Sergeant Marco - bolt gun
210 points

10th Squad
5 devastator marines, 4 rocket launchers
Brother Sergeant Raffaello - bolt pistol and close combat weapon
130 points

total 1978 points

I can also swap the librarian out for Astorath or throw in a furioso instead of something. In 1500 points I lose the 9th squad and the honour guard or both devastator squads. a priest and epistolery status.

[Cheesegear]

I guess this is kind of the reason why devastators aren't considered that good a unit, at least not at the points you pay for them in the vanilla codex.

That's why you only ever take them if you're running them with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers, and have Bolster Defenses somewhere (Lysander/Techmarine), which often means taking a second unit you might not otherwise want.

The 'best' Heavy Support option according to elsewhere on the internet appears to be Predators or Whirlwinds, but, fall apart very quickly against any army that likes taking lots of Melta/Lance weapons (i.e; All of them), which is part of the reason why I don't like them and tend to take more Infantry.


Except that they can still assault you if they kill your rhino with a blast pistol. Not that warriors really want to assault space marines.

No. If they kill your Rhino, they still count as shooting at a separate unit. But, if it were me, I'd use the Dark Lance(s) aboard all my Raiders and such to pop vehicles with delicious souls inside.


Rhino Transports are for getting you near the enemy quickly with added safety, not for being crappy pillboxes that only allow 2 models to shoot and even then only if the transport moves no faster than you could have walked anyway.

Under Codex Marines, this is true for most units, less so for Sternguard who can get x2 Plasma- or Las- cannons, if in a 'Line'squad.

Under Blood Angels or Space Wolves where you can actually get two good special (Assault) weapons in every squad, using them as Pillboxes works. Often. Same with Sisters of Battle and ISTs.

[Winterwind]

So, after I surprised a friend of mine with a Bretonnian battalion box for his birthday, he countered with (amongst other things), a Fire Prism (my birthday was five months ago, but we hadn't seen each other in all that time). Leading to me finally starting to work on that intended Eldar army of mine. :smallcool:

So, I wrote up a little modification of the army list I presented at the very beginning of this thread (fitting I would return to that at the very end of the thread's lifespan :smallbiggrin:), and was wondering if I could get some comments on that. :smallredface:

HQ
Farseer - 178 Points
- Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Eldar Jetbike

ELITES
Striking Scorpions (x10) - 212 Points
- Exarch, Scorpions Claw, Stalker, Shadow Strike

Fire Dragons (x10) - 192+145 Points
- Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
+ Wave Serpent with Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers, Starengines and Spirit Stones

TROOPS
Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Pathfinders (x6) - 144 Points

Guardian Jetbikes (x9) - 259 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x3)
- Warlock on Jetbike, Singing Spear, Khaine's Blessing

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 160 Points
- Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Total: 1998

Since my Chaos Space Marines are heavily infantry reliant, and there are no vehicles in Warhammer Fantasy, I figured I'd go with a more tank heavy approach for my next 40k army. Also, I always loved Pathfinders (both conceptually and the models), so I wanted an army that is a bit of a mix of the Alaitoc and Saim-Hann battle doctrines - many, many Pathfinders, and as many tanks and jetbikes as possible to support them (if I had more points, they'd pretty much all go into Vypers).

So... what do you think? :smallredface:

[Kzickas]

No. If they kill your Rhino, they still count as shooting at a separate unit. But, if it were me, I'd use the Dark Lance(s) aboard all my Raiders and such to pop vehicles with delicious souls inside.

Except that the rules explicitly say that you can charge a unit despite having shot at a different one in that specific situation

[Klose_the_Sith]

Except that mobile devastators don't work, ever. You can't shoot heavy weapons after using Gate, because it follows the deep strike rules. Closest thing to mobile devastators is Logan Grimnar in a unit of Longfangs and that's so cost inefficient its a joke. You might as well just buy your devastators a rhino.

:smallconfused:

The point was never move and shoot. The point, it seems, is one you missed entirely - rapid redeployment in exchange for a turn of shooting.

If I was looking to build move + shoot Heavy Weapons with infantry then I'd be looking at taking Legion of the Damned.


Attack Bikes

$150 for a single unit? No dice.


Land Speeders

Are all right, but fragile units are not my thing.


Obliterators

Should not really be on this list if it's supposed to be recommendations.


Dreadnoughts

Are pretty good, I suppose.


Predators

I don't really see Preds fulfilling an anti-vehicle role unless you've kitted them out with Lascannons ... which starts getting pointlessly expensive.


Whirlwinds

Beyond terrible.


Vindicators

Already in the list.


Terminators (well, Black Templar ones)

Again, not really a unit you should be suggesting to me.


Can move and fulfil a devastator roll.

Still not the point.


I guess this is kind of the reason why devastators aren't considered that good a unit, at least not at the points you pay for them in the vanilla codex.

Because they're generally a static unit? :smallconfused:

Most of the units you listed have a tendency to be static. Sure they'll move 6" a turn while shooting (except the Preds if they've been kitted with LC's) but they won't make it that far before becoming a priority unit and eliminated.

Devs start with greater distance between themselves and the enemy, letting them take cheap shots for longer. At 150 points for 4 BS 3 Str 8 shots they're cheap even in the vanilla book, I can't imagine why they became cheaper for Blangels.


But I just intrinsically hate "hide in rhinos" lists. I pretty much agree with Firaeveus Carron in that respect. Rhino Transports are for getting you near the enemy quickly with added safety, not for being crappy pillboxes that only allow 2 models to shoot and even then only if the transport moves no faster than you could have walked anyway. Except of course, if you actually man it up enough to get out of your transports, then you can move 12" and fire your meltagun. Tactical squads are range 24" for a reason. If I want meltas that can move I take bikes, landspeeders or assault marines, because they can actually move more than 6" and fire, or in some cases deep strike.

You can't move 12" and fire by getting out of your Rhino. 9-10", depending on some facing manipulations I guess, but you never move 12".

Of course my list only somewhat uses pillboxes - sure my Marines are kind of likely to sit in their transports for a while, but that doesn't mean they can't strike at targets of opportunity. It's just I'm not going to be stupid about it.

A 3+ save is good, but not amazing and bolters aren't enough to panic most squads. You need decent dice rolls to drop so much as a squad of Guardsmen to testing levels and you aren't exactly guaranteed to wipe them out.

And then your tactical squad is on its own in the face of a battle line that will tear it apart.


A lascannon is 10 points on a tactical squad and better than a melta gun against most transports.

Well, sure. In some contexts. But not in the context of a list that wants to be mobile and aggressive with its tactical squads.


Depends really. Only Wyches will want to do that all the time.

If a Dark Eldar army is willing to try and fight a pitched battle, I'm more than happy to oblige.

[Incomp]

No. If they kill your Rhino, they still count as shooting at a separate unit. But, if it were me, I'd use the Dark Lance(s) aboard all my Raiders and such to pop vehicles with delicious souls inside.


Not true. Page 67 of the rulebook, under the Effects of Damage Results on Passengers: "However, if a transport is destroyed by shooting (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

[Cheesegear]

Except that the rules explicitly say that you can charge a unit despite having shot at a different one in that specific situation


Not true. Page 67 of the rulebook, under the Effects of Damage Results on Passengers...

It's fun when I get told the same thing twice.

[Winterwind]

Very many people get that wrong though, myself included - up until just now I thought it wasn't possible either, and the guy I played against yesterday and the bystanders thought so as well (and it would have made my life so much easier if I had known it was possible after all, too!).

Which, incidentally, was a pretty fun game, and a good study of "things one shouldn't do just because one can". Perhaps I'll write a battle report later...

[Closet_Skeleton]

Under Blood Angels or Space Wolves where you can actually get two good special (Assault) weapons in every squad, using them as Pillboxes works. Often. Same with Sisters of Battle and ISTs.

Immolators having fire points is pretty useful too.

For Blood Angels I just prefer my assault marines to actualy have jump packs, especially in an army that has special rules that make such things more viable.


:smallconfused:

The point was never move and shoot. The point, it seems, is one you missed entirely - rapid redeployment in exchange for a turn of shooting.

You have range 48", why would you want to redeploy instead of shooting? Put your devastators in an elevated possition and the enemy has to hide his units behind terrain to stop you shooting him.



Devs start with greater distance between themselves and the enemy, letting them take cheap shots for longer. At 150 points for 4 BS 3 Str 8 shots they're cheap even in the vanilla book, I can't imagine why they became cheaper for Blangels.

A dread is 125 points with 4 twin linked S7 shots, and can move. The devastators pay 25 points for increased flexibility and higher strength at the cost of accuracy. A thunderfire cannon is 100 points and fulfils the devastator's anti-infantry role way better. Devastators are pretty much worth their points, they're just not as good as other things in the book.


You can't move 12" and fire by getting out of your Rhino. 9-10", depending on some facing manipulations I guess, but you never move 12".

Yes you can. In fact, you can move 12" and disembark 2" and still fire, just not assault (but you have bolt guns so you couldn't assault anyway). Its only fast transports that don't let you disembark if you move more than 12", there's no problem with moving 12" for any transport (except Monoliths I suppose but those are weird in other ways).


Of course my list only somewhat uses pillboxes - sure my Marines are kind of likely to sit in their transports for a while, but that doesn't mean they can't strike at targets of opportunity. It's just I'm not going to be stupid about it.

Stupid? I want every model in my army to be doing something every turn, as long as they do that I don't care if they die by turn 3 because they've been doing stuff.


And then your tactical squad is on its own in the face of a battle line that will tear it apart.

On its own? Really? What about your other tactical squads? Or all the other things in your army that are a higher target priority?


Well, sure. In some contexts. But not in the context of a list that wants to be mobile and aggressive with its tactical squads.


We may have differant definitions, but hiding in a box and firing 1 weapon isn't "aggressive" to me.

[Zorg]

As they have done for Tyranids and Space Wolves, GW accidentily put up an article a few months too early on their website (this refers to the Fed '11 WD in the past tense) - this time on the Stormraven gunship for the Blood Angels:


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk57/GKTerminators/Miscelanious/Stormraven.jpg


Pics and the writeup at Warseer here. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5112324#post5112324)

Something very different to what I expected, but I like it.

[Timberwolf]

As they have done for Tyranids and Space Wolves, GW accidentily put up an article a few months too early on their website (this refers to the Fed '11 WD in the past tense) - this time on the Stormraven gunship for the Blood Angels:


Something very different to what I expected, but I like it.

It looks like a fat Valkyrie. It's a nice model though, but the relative sleekness of the Valkyrie puts it ahead for me.

[hamishspence]

The fandom on Warseer and Bolter & Chainsword seem very divided over this one.

Some say it's ugly and not enough like other Space Marine vehicles in style (large clear cockpit screens) others are OK with it.

Personally I'd say if it had more body (and better protected engines) so it actually looked like a mini-thunderhawk,

rather than the a miniature version of the Thunderhawk's front compartment with wings,

it would be better.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Played two games today with my blood angels.


One was against traitor guard, 1 unit of ogryns, 1 unit of stormtroopers, 2 company commands (one with Kell and Kreed and Nork, one with Straken, both with masters of ordnance), techpriest with servitors and four units of veterans (one with shotguns, one with plasma guns, 1 sniper and 1 I rocked launchered before I found out what it had, all with all docterines). For tanks he had a chimera for Creed, a chimera for the ogryns, a Punisher and an Executioner with Pask.

So basically a 1000 point army pretending to be a 2000 point army by overloading on upgrades and special characters. Turn 1 his masters of ordnance and executioner's plasma did a lot of damage, wiping out my lascannon combat squad and missile launcher devastator combat squad firebase and reducing my other two ML devastator combat squad fire base to three missile launchers. Turn 2 I got all my jump infantry down and melta gunned both Leman Russ dead. From then on it was basically mop up, though I did lose a combat squad in melee to some shotgun grenadiers through bad luck and lost a melta combat squad, a flamer combat squad and the other halves of those squads only had 1 guy left. My librarian got killed by Kell after suffering a perils attack. But I still tabled him apart from 1 broken veteran sergeant by turn 7.

My librarian spent most of the game sniping with Fear of the Darkness. He managed to get the Ogryns to flee for two turns, putting them out of the game, and made the techmarine run off the board edge.

Second game was against Necrons. 2 Lords, 2 units of warriors, monolith, spider, 5 destroyers, 30 Immortals. I sent 2 assault squads, the honour guard and a librarian and a bike priest up against one side of his army (1 unit of warriors, 1 lord, 1 unit of immortals) and got butchered, only managing to kill the lord and half the warriors and immortals. Then he just rolled his army forwards slowly shooting me to death. My lascannon killed the Monolith after 5 turns of shooting at it, giving me a second kill point. At the end I just had half a combat squad and half a devastator squad left and he still had all his squads, two at full strength and the others at about 40% strength. I also took a dread that time instead of epistolery status and 5 bolt gun devastators. It got immobalised on turn 2 and basically just distracted a unit of warriors for the whole game before it got glanced to death on the last turn.

But he also claimed that ordnance weapons ignored cover (he killed my deathcompany despite the fact that they were safe in a crater) and lightning fields ignored armour (he killed my librarian and an assault squad sergeant this way), so I should have done slightly better than I did. He also claimed that if a unit can't "we'll be back" due to having no models of the same type nearby he could use the Monolith portal to give them an "we'll be back", which I'm not sure about but doesn't seem to work either.

[Cheesegear]

For Blood Angels I just prefer my assault marines to actualy have jump packs, especially in an army that has special rules that make such things more viable.

Kind of depends. For Blood Angels, Rhinos are Fast. And that's kind of a big deal. More importantly, they can go 12", pop Smoke, and the guys inside will still be able to fire, whereas in other armies, it can only go 6". Either way, you're in a second-turn Assault, and the Rhino is only 15 points. And between your first and second turn, the Rhino ensures that your squad wont get shot up too badly.

As far as special rules that make it 'more viable'...Err...What? Descent of Angels makes Deep Striking Assault Marines 'better', insofar as that Deep Striking Assault Marines is a terrible idea anyway.

Red Thirst is that fun thing that you never get, or get on the squads that don't need it. Or use Astorath. Which you may or may not want.

Sanguinary Priests work whether you have a Jump Pack or not. It makes no difference. Unless you're trying to fit a 10-man squad and a Priest in a Rhino. But, that's what 5-man squads in Fast Razorbacks (really, really big deal) and Priests are for.

I can't think of anything else. But, due to the fact that Assault Marines get discounted, Fast, transport vehicles - or free Drop Pods - on top of the ability to take two special weapons, I don't know too many people who run them with Jump Packs.

Except for 'casuals' and themed-lists. Not that that's a bad thing. Just that Assault Marines with Jump Packs are worse in a Blood Angels army because there are other things you can do with them.
As opposed to Codex AssMarines, who are bad because they're not Troops, and Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are just better.

Skyclaws are fairly good at what they do. Its just that Thunderwolves are much, much, brokenly better.


Something very different to what I expected, but I like it.

Hunt for Voldoris has a few Stormravens on the cover.
A couple of guys at the club have made a few SRs out of Valkyries and Land Raiders, and they look way better than that.

If that's an 'official' model, I'm fairly disappointed in it. If its just a conversion of what a Stormraven is supposed to look like (which HfV already has), it's passable, but I've seen much better.


But he also claimed that ordnance weapons ignored cover (he killed my deathcompany despite the fact that they were safe in a crater) and lightning fields ignored armour (he killed my librarian and an assault squad sergeant this way), so I should have done slightly better than I did. He also claimed that if a unit can't "we'll be back" due to having no models of the same type nearby he could use the Monolith portal to give them an "we'll be back", which I'm not sure about but doesn't seem to work either.

Did you have a rulebook on you?
Did you force him to show you his Codex?

If you answered 'No' to one or both of those questions, I can't really feel bad for you.

Ordnance Weapons do not ignore cover.
Lightning Fields have no AP.

You can't use WBB if you have no unit.
"Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed..." - Page 21.

To use WBB from the Monolith, you must've been eligible in the first place, then fail the check, then 'port to the Monolith.

If you're not eligible to roll WBB in the first place (say, there are no models within 6"), you never rolled WBB in the first place, never 'failed' the check, and can't WBB from the Monolith.

EDIT: Is it just me, or are FAQs inaccessible at the moment?

[crazedloon]

More importantly, they can go 12", pop Smoke, and the guys inside will still be able to fire, whereas in other armies, it can only go 6".
not true 6" is combat speed and 12 inches is cruising for all vehicles (and thus units inside treat that movement the same) the only difference between fast and non fast is the turbo boost (i.e. 18" move)


But, that's what 5-man squads in Fast Razorbacks (really, really big deal) and Priests are for.
this is where it is relevant because your razorbacks are moving 12 and still firing


Skyclaws are fairly good at what they do. Its just that Thunderwolves are much, much, brokenly better.
skyclaws are really bad. There extra attack just barely makes up for the loss of WS and that attack is only on the charge and thus make them horrid turn 2

[Cheesegear]

not true 6" is combat speed and 12 inches is cruising for all vehicles

*facepalm*
That's what I get for not using Fast transport vehicles as often as I should.


skyclaws are really bad. There extra attack just barely makes up for the loss of WS and that attack is only on the charge and thus make them horrid turn 2

If you've done your 'claws right, there is no second turn of combat. Hence, no problem.

[Razaele]

*facepalm*
If you've done your 'claws right, there is no second turn of combat. Hence, no problem.

Hmm. I've always thought that ending assault on your opponent's turn was a good thing, since he doesn't get to shoot your units and all that.:smallconfused:

[Closet_Skeleton]

As far as special rules that make it 'more viable'...Err...What? Descent of Angels makes Deep Striking Assault Marines 'better', insofar as that Deep Striking Assault Marines is a terrible idea anyway.

Feel no pain. I take a priest for every 750 points. My ten man assault marine squads don't get wiped out by shooting quite so easily (except by big guns, which go against them because I have no vehicles). Well, they almost always get wiped out or nearly wiped out, but often that's after I've done enough to win.

Only thing I deep strike with Descent of Angels is melta guns, and I reliably kill tanks with them, so I wouldn't say its "terrible". The reroll to reserves means that I can get them down on turn 2 pretty regularly and the reduced scatter means that I don't have to worry about falling out super effective range. Occaisonally they even survive to turn 3 to kill another tank. I could just take drop pods with Sternguard, but I have a "theme list".

Vanguard would be good with Descent of Angels too, you'd just need to be playing about 3000 points to fit them in.


Red Thirst is that fun thing that you never get, or get on the squads that don't need it. Or use Astorath. Which you may or may not want.

Yeah, I never worry about red thirst. Fearless devastators are surprisingly useful though, so I don't know about "squads that don't need it". Anyway, it is supposed to be a flaw. Sort of.

Astorath is pretty amazing though, just a bit over-pointed and a viability in an all mech list. I've had the model for a while but haven't used him yet, since I'm still trying to work out how my army works without him.


Sanguinary Priests work whether you have a Jump Pack or not. It makes no difference. Unless you're trying to fit a 10-man squad and a Priest in a Rhino. But, that's what 5-man squads in Fast Razorbacks (really, really big deal) and Priests are for.

Then you have crappy minimum sized units if you take razorbacks, which are still 60 points if you want to give them assault cannons. I don't really consider the discount a full discount since you're loosing 3 points per model of jump pack usefulness, but even then its still 20 points if you have a 5 man squad (but only 5 points with a 10 man one).

Priests are partially wasted if you take mech, because they're going to die the first turn of combat against anyone with power weapons, so you're only getting furious charge out of the deal. Unless you just keep the priest in the razorback, which isn't a bad idea, or even unfluffy (especialyl not if you paint the razorback as an ambulance).


Did you have a rulebook on you?
Did you force him to show you his Codex?

If you answered 'No' to one or both of those questions, I can't really feel bad for you.

I don't like hunting through every page in a rule book in order to find 1 phrase during a friendly game. I also tend to assume that people actually know their codexes if they've been using an army since it came out several years ago.

I'm not really pissed that I lost, I just know what to do next time.



EDIT: Is it just me, or are FAQs inaccessible at the moment?

Its not just you.

[Cheesegear]

Feel no pain. I take a priest for every 750 points.

I never said don't take a Priest. They work with or without Jump Packs.


My ten man assault marine squads don't get wiped out by shooting quite so easily

No different to having them in Rhinos. In fact, killing them is harder.


Only thing I deep strike with Descent of Angels is melta guns, and I reliably kill tanks with them, so I wouldn't say its "terrible". The reroll to reserves means that I can get them down on turn 2 pretty regularly and the reduced scatter means that I don't have to worry about falling out super effective range.

Or you could use Drop Pods and guarantee their arrival on Turn 1, for free. They don't particularly need reduced Scatter since Drop Pods don't die. Its basically what Space Wolves do, and they don't have problems with it.

So you don't get Priests in Drop Pods. So? Neither do Space Wolves. Are you too good for Space Wolves? :smallamused:


Then you have crappy minimum sized units if you take razorbacks, which are still 60 points if you want to give them assault cannons.

You don't pay 60 points for a Razorback, since Heavy Flamers are free. On a Fast vehicle. Minimum-size squads are not crap when you have lots of them in vehicles that can't die.


Priests are partially wasted if you take mech, because they're going to die the first turn of combat against anyone with power weapons

Being S5 at I5 means you should never be dying against Power Weapons because your Assault Marines will have so many attacks at higher initiative. Its rarely a problem.


Unless you just keep the priest in the razorback, which isn't a bad idea, or even unfluffy (especialyl not if you paint the razorback as an ambulance).

This too.

[Winterwind]

I also tend to assume that people actually know their codexes if they've been using an army since it came out several years ago.In my experience, the amount and degree of ignorance people tend to have towards their own codizes is staggering. For instance, I think I've met more Space Marine players who thought Scouts had the same profile as Tactical Marines (only less armour) than Space Marine players who knew their actual profile.



...so, no comments on my Eldar list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9741852&postcount=1405)? :smallfrown:

[SmartAlec]

For instance, I think I've met more Space Marine players who thought Scouts had the same profile as Tactical Marines (only less armour) than Space Marine players who knew their actual profile.

That might just be simple confusion. Up until the most recent codex, they did.

[Winterwind]

That might just be simple confusion. Up until the most recent codex, they did.Up until the most recent codex, they had a WS and BS of 4 and a S and T of 3, the most recent codex switched it around. To the best of my knowledge, they never had a straight 4 profile like regular marines do, however.

[Cheesegear]

Err...Right.


So, I wrote up a little modification of the army list I presented at the very beginning of this thread

Right...


Farseer - 178 Points
- Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Eldar Jetbike

Since you're on a Jetbike, presumably hanging with the Jetbikes, I might consider dropping Fortune for Mind War. Just a thought. If you're going to be that close to the enemy, sometimes its worth popping the Power Fist-wielding Sergeant.


Striking Scorpions (x10) - 212 Points
- Exarch, Scorpions Claw, Stalker, Shadow Strike

I prefer Biting Blade. Its cheaper. Stalker isn't that important.


Fire Dragons (x10) - 192+145 Points
- Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
+ Wave Serpent with Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers, Starengines and Spirit Stones

Lose the Star Engines. Do you really need to move 36" in one turn?


Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Pathfinders (x6) - 144 Points

Definitely not my favorite. I'd drop the third unit of six and grab more Jetbikes.


Guardian Jetbikes (x9) - 259 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x3)
- Warlock on Jetbike, Singing Spear, Khaine's Blessing

...What's Khaine's Blessing? I'm also fairly certain you've got points wrong...Unless you actually have 8 Jetbikes and a Warlock...?

I'd also think about making two units out of this.


Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 160 Points
- Holo-field, Spirit Stones

You don't need more than two Fire Prisms. Consider dropping one of them for Vyper Jetbikes, Shining Spears or D-Cannons. As it stands, you've only got the one, big, tempting, SHOOT HERE sign on the Jetbikes, and you don't even have Conceal on the Warlock. Which is what you really want Fortune on the Farseer for, when your unit gets an AP2 pie-plate dropped on top of them, Fortune isn't going to do squat.

...Unless 'doing squat' means 'get killed and erased from GW's history'. As it stands, great, you've got a bunch of tanks. Pathfinders have 2+ cover, so, every anti-Infantry weapon and Pie Plate weapon I own is going to smush the Jetbikes. You want target saturation. And more fast-moving Troops.

Summary; One unit of Jetbikes isn't enough. Find points for more. And/or Shining Spears. And/or an Autarch.


That might just be simple confusion. Up until the most recent codex, they did.

Not an excuse. Because 'most recent' actually means '2 years old'.

[Lansier]

I had a small skirmish against a Tyranid player yesterday, celebrating the fact that our local store had finally re-opened its gaming area.

My list:
1000 points Spacemarines:

HQ:
Captain
Bike
Relic Blade
Storm Shield
Hellfire Rounds

Elite:
Ironclad Dreadnought
2x Heavy Flamer
2x HK missiles
Ironclad Assault Launchers

Transport:
Drop pod

Troops:
Scout squad
Shotguns
Sergeant:
Shotgun
Combi-Flamer

Bike squad
3 extra bikers
2 meltaguns
Sergeant:
Powerfist
Attackbike:
Multi-Melta

Fast Attack:
Landspeeder
Typhoon Missile Launcher

Landspeeder
Assault Cannon

Landspeeder Storm
Heavy Flamer


His list:


HQ:
Tyranid Prime
Bonesword
Whip?
Adrenal Glands

Troops:
3x30 Hormagaunts

3 Warriors
Rending Claws?/Scything Talons?
Adrenal Glands

Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime


Battle Report:


Terrain: Low buildings/ruins scattered roughly evenly across the board, a small forest near the center.

Mission: Capture and Control.

Deployment: Spearhead: I won the roll off and opted to go second my opponent chose the corner with the most cover, giving me one with relatively little. He deployed all of his gaunts close to the center and his warriors with the Prime behind them, his Trygon remained in reserve. He placed his Objective in the middle inside a ruin.

I deployed my bikes on my left flank near my objective which was behind a ruin I the corner, my three speeders (with the scout squad riding in the Storm) deployed on my right flank, my Dreadnought stayed in reserve with his drop pod.

Round 1:
I didn’t seize initiative. My opponent ran all of his forces forward, capturing the objective I the center with one of his gaunt squads(blue), the second gaunt squad (red) headed towards my bikers, while the third(green) was forced to move around the first squad and was slowed down by one of the ruins. His warriors moved forward a little but were mostly blocked by his gaunts.

On my turn my drop pod came down behind his third squad, near his warriors my bikers moved onto the objective and my landspeeder Storm moved towards the second objective, my other two speeders stayed put. In the shooting phase my Ironclad torched a dozen green gaunts and the drop pod killed another one. The bikers opened fire on the red gaunts approaching them and killed about six. My assault cannon landspeeder killed a few more red gaunts while my missile speeder opened fire on the warriors but failed to wound (missing with its krak missiles.) The Storm burned half a dozen blue gaunts with the scouts inside killing another four with their shotguns.

Round 2:
His Trygon arrived popping up between my speeders. His red gaunts where out of synapse range and were forced to move towards my speeders (moving into synapse range of the Trygon) his blue gaunts kept moving forward ignoring my Storm (which they couldn’t hurt) and moved towards my bikers. His green gaunts moved forward, ignoring my Ironclad, his warriors however didn’t and moved into assault range.
In his shooting phase his Trygon managed to shake my Storm.
His warriors assaulted my Ironclad and failed to even scratch his armour, he proceeded to pound them into the ground, ripping the Prime apart and then overrunning the warriors.

On my turn my Storm turbo boosted away, jumping over his gaunts and landing near my drop pod. My missile speeder also turbo boosted and hid behind a building, my assault cannon speeder moved in front of the blue gaunts hoping to delay them from reaching my bikers.
The Ironclad moved forward.
In my shooting phase the Ironclad knocked two wounds of the Trygon with its HK missiles and the assault cannon speeder knocked another wound off. My bikers killed two red gaunts.

Round 3:
All of his forced moved towards the bikers, his blue gaunts rolled a 6 to move through cover and completely ignored the landspeeder in front of them, his Trygon charged the speeder and immobilized it. The red gaunts managed to charge my bikers and killed one, the bikers killed five in return.

My Ironclad ran forward, my Storm moved next to the blue gaunts and torched ten of them, my missile speeder moved behind the Trygon and knocked of two more wounds with its missiles, the assault cannon speeder failed to wound it.
In assault my bikers finished of the remaining red gaunts without trouble and consolidated away from the Trygon.

Round 4:
His blue gaunts charged my bikers but failed to kill any, the bikers killed four in return. His Trygon opened fire on my missile speeder, stunning it. The rest of his forced moved forward.

My Ironclad ran again, my assault cannon speeder knocked the last wound of the Trygon. The Strorm moved behind the green gaunts and flamered/shotgunned twelve to death causing them to run off. My bikers killed of the last blue gaunts.

My opponent conceded seeing as how his last remaining gaunts could no longer rally. (And were between my Ironclad and Landspeeder Storm.)

[Cheesegear]

I had a small skirmish against a Tyranid player yesterday, celebrating the fact that our local store had finally re-opened its gaming area.

I also notice that your list is extremely solid, or, rather, every single unit in your army is pretty much the best configuration you can get out of it.

Whereas your opponent's list is pretty soft. Sure, a Trygon Prime in 1000 points is pretty deadly, but, that's all he's got. Tell him to consider less Gaunts and more Warriors. Or Zoanthropes, or something. He has way too many Gaunts (I know, he's a Tyranid player), but, in 1000 points, you don't need anymore than 60, and he's running 90.

Still, good win. Well done. Your list is quite good.

[evisiron]

Ahh, just back from the US to find that there is a small tournament happening in December. Huzzah!

So, I am throwing my lists together once again and as always would love to hear your opinions and criticisms.

First up to bat is a semi-battlewagon list. This is my first time trying a vehicle heavy Ork list, my usual approach being "Dees boots is made fer walkin!".

HQ
Big Mek
Kustom Force Field
Grot oiler

Warboss
Mega Armor
Attack squig
Cybork body
Bosspole


Troops

20x slugga boys
+Nob
+Power Klaw
+Boss Pole
Mounted in…
Battlewagon
-2 Big shootas
-armour plates
-Red paint job
-deffrolla


20x slugga boys
+Nob
+Power Klaw
+Boss Pole
Mounted in…
Battlewagon
-2 Big shootas
-armour plates
-Red paint job
-deffrolla



5 Mega Armoured Nobz
(Troops due to Warboss)
2x Komnbi skorcha
Kombi Rokkit
Mounted in…
Dedicated battlewagon
-2 Big shootas
-armour plates
-Red paint job
-deffrolla

12 Shoota Boyz
-Big Shoota
-Nob
--Power Klaw
--Bosspole
Mounted in…
Trukk
-Reinforced Ram
-Armour plates

Elite

8 Lootas

Fast Attack

Warbuggy
Skorcha

Heavy Support

Grot Artillery
3 Kannons
3x ammo runts
Extra crew

The Big mek and warboss will be in the battlewagon with the Mega Armoured Nobz.


The basic plan is to huddle the battlewagons together, with the trukk either hiding behind them or waiting in reserve depending on setup. Spend the first movement phase moving forward enough for a second turn charge. From there it really depends how the enemy line holds up.

Pros:
-My boyz don't get shot up nearly as much. All enemy investments in anti infantry shooting is wasted until they pop a wagon.
-Pretty fast, and able to redeploy easily.
-Durable. In my experience, 2000 point lists have struggled to kill my lone battlewagon with the KFF.

Cons:
-Fewer potential boyz reaching the enemy
-Anti tank is limited primarily to Deff Rollas. Tricky to face dreadnoughts, fast tanks and skimmers
-May struggle against combat focused lists, especially Space Wolves who do not need the charge.

Originally I had a forth wagon in there, but have limited myself to only using things I have or can put together with existing materials due to budget constraints.
So, any thoughts?

[Winterwind]

Since you're on a Jetbike, presumably hanging with the Jetbikes, I might consider dropping Fortune for Mind War. Just a thought. If you're going to be that close to the enemy, sometimes its worth popping the Power Fist-wielding Sergeant.Mmm, alright. I will consider that - probably play a bit with both, once the army is done, and then see which works better for me. :smallsmile:


I prefer Biting Blade. Its cheaper. Stalker isn't that important.Away from codex, but the Biting Blade doesn't ignore armour saves, does it? Which was pretty much my main reason for taking the Claw - in one of my very first 40k games I saw a medium-sized unit of Scorpions assaulting a group of Tau Broadsides (it was a 2v2), and ultimately, the Broadsides killed all of the Scorpions without taking any losses. I'd rather know that if my Scorpions go up against something with good armour, they are able to inflict at least some losses.

Note taken regarding Stalker; I'll drop it when there is something more useful for the 5 points elsewhere, and keep it in lists that happen to have 5 points left over.


Lose the Star Engines. Do you really need to move 36" in one turn?Well, I figured it might save me a turn when bringing the Firedragons to whatever they wanted to blow up. With the Star Engines, I can boost as quickly as possible to the target, move 12" on the second turn, unload, and start shooting from close range; without them, I might end up having to spend two turns moving 18" each, and not unload until the third turn.

But if you say that's an unlikely outcome, I'll yield to your superior experience. :smallwink:


Definitely not my favorite. I'd drop the third unit of six and grab more Jetbikes.Understood. Will do so. :smallsmile:

...wait, did you just suggest to take less snipers? What is this, some bizarre parallel universe? You are not the goatee-version of Cheesegear, are you? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

Yes, I know you only recommend snipers when taken in really large amounts, and that Pathfinders are much too expensive to be used in that manner. ;)


...What's Khaine's Blessing? I'm also fairly certain you've got points wrong...Unless you actually have 8 Jetbikes and a Warlock...?Oh, isn't it called Khaine's Blessing in English? I just guessed what its name would be and googled to see if that was it, and I saw it in some army lists; I guess those were by other Germans who had made the same guess as me, then...

In any case, it's that power that gives +1WS, +1I to the entire unit. A slightly longer google'ing reveals to me that it's actually called Enhance.
...geez, the differences between the German and the English Eldar codex are really astounding.
For starters, the Warlock powers: Enhance became "Khaine's Blessing", Destructor became "Flames of Wrath", Embolden became "Steely Resolve" and Conceal became "Mist Veil".

Then, some of the Aspect Warrior names - Dire Avengers are "Asuryan's Hunters", Dark Reapers are "Black Khaindar"...

And the Fire Prism is called "Illum Zar" instead.

And yeah, I did get my points wrong - I made some minor adjustments to the list (cutting down a bit on equipment options elsewhere and adding the 9th jetbike), and apparently forgot to adjust the points. The unit is 288 points. :smallredface:


I'd also think about making two units out of this.I was thinking about it, too, but how should I split it, then? A unit of 3 is too small to draw fire away from the one with 6 and won't accomplish much other than give away a killpoint every third game, while also being too small to serve as reliable ablative wounds to the Farseer (or so I'd think).

Though, if I free up points elsewhere to add more bikes, that's a moot point.


You don't need more than two Fire Prisms. Consider dropping one of them for Vyper Jetbikes, Shining Spears or D-Cannons. As it stands, you've only got the one, big, tempting, SHOOT HERE sign on the Jetbikes, and you don't even have Conceal on the Warlock. Which is what you really want Fortune on the Farseer for, when your unit gets an AP2 pie-plate dropped on top of them, Fortune isn't going to do squat.Mmm, I understand your point... only, I'm kinda fearful of failing to oversaturate the enemy anti-tank capabilities if I take less Fire Prisms, or losing a Fire Prism quickly and no longer being able to focus (when necessary). Plus, an unfocused Fire Prism has some pretty nice damage output on its own as well...

...okay, I admit, I just like Fire Prisms. :smallbiggrin: :smallredface:

I will consider it, though.


...Unless 'doing squat' means 'get killed and erased from GW's history'. As it stands, great, you've got a bunch of tanks. Pathfinders have 2+ cover, so, every anti-Infantry weapon and Pie Plate weapon I own is going to smush the Jetbikes. You want target saturation. And more fast-moving Troops.

Summary; One unit of Jetbikes isn't enough. Find points for more. And/or Shining Spears. And/or an Autarch.Understood. Thank you very much. :smallsmile:


So, this would be the list I put together using the advice you gave me that I immediately liked, while I ponder how/whether to implement the more painful changes.
HQ
Farseer - 178 Points
- Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Eldar Jetbike

ELITES
Striking Scorpions (x10) - 212 Points
- Exarch, Scorpions Claw, Stalker, Shadow Strike

Fire Dragons (x10) - 192+130 Points
- Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
+ Wave Serpent with Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers and Spirit Stones

TROOPS
Pathfinders (x8) - 192 Points

Pathfinders (x7) - 168 Points

Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 215 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x2)
- Warlock on Jetbike, Singing Spear, Conceal

Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 210 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x2)
- Warlock on Jetbike, Singing Spear, Destructor

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 170 Points
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism - 160 Points
- Holo-field, Spirit Stones

Total: 1997

[SmartAlec]

Up until the most recent codex, they had a WS and BS of 4 and a S and T of 3, the most recent codex switched it around. To the best of my knowledge, they never had a straight 4 profile like regular marines do, however.

You are mistaken; they've always been S and T 4.


Not an excuse. Because 'most recent' actually means '2 years old'.

You'll never shake the memory of stats that you've been using for over 15 years. Especially if you memorise things in terms of '3+ to hit' rather than 'BS4', which everyone does eventually.

[Cheesegear]

Away from codex, but the Biting Blade doesn't ignore armour saves, does it?

It doesn't. But S5-7 at Initiative value (6) is pretty good. And, with Initiative 6, going last kind of sucks when you have the option not to. Almost as bad as Kantor.


I might end up having to spend two turns moving 18" each, and not unload until the third turn.

If you're pushing your deployment, go your first turn 12-24", depending on preference, then, on Turn 2, go another 12" and get out. If you're still not in range by then, you're playing on a really, really big board.


...wait, did you just suggest to take less snipers? What is this, some bizarre parallel universe? You are not the goatee-version of Cheesegear, are you? :smalleek: :smalltongue:

If you read that sentence again, you'll see that I'm telling you to take less Snipers...For more Bikes. I think you'll find I'm much the same Cheesegear as I've always been. :smallwink:


Oh, isn't it called Khaine's Blessing in English?

...Judging from the rest of this segment of the post, I can, without reservation, say that the German version of the Eldar Codex is awesome. :smallwink:


Understood. Thank you very much. :smallsmile:

No worries. /Australian.

The list looks much better. Partly because now you have more troops that are likely to move around a bit more, and have your opponent being forced to split his fire when faced with a tank with Fire Dragons in it, a unit of Scorpions and two units of Jetbikes. Its a much faster army, with more scary targets.

The Warlock on Jetbike with Destructor Flames of Wrath pleases me. Though I might drop the Spear and go with the regular Witchblade. More attacks that way, and, in the Shooting phase, you can use Flames of Wrath or the Spear. I know which I'd use every phase.

[Winterwind]

You are mistaken; they've always been S and T 4....are you sure? Because I both distinctly remember seeing they used to have S3 and T3 in an older codex, and just googleing for that subjects reveals discussions where people state that (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/307200.page#1773570) they liked the old stats better. :smallconfused:


It doesn't. But S5-7 at Initiative value (6) is pretty good. And, with Initiative 6, going last kind of sucks when you have the option not to. Almost as bad as Kantor.True enough. It would make them much better at fighting what they are supposed to fight, rather than something outside of their area of expertise. Yeah, I think I'll go with that.

Also, it frees up 10 points to give Shuriken Cannons to all of my Fire Prisms. :smallcool:


If you're pushing your deployment, go your first turn 12-24", depending on preference, then, on Turn 2, go another 12" and get out. If you're still not in range by then, you're playing on a really, really big board.Alright then. :smallsmile:


If you read that sentence again, you'll see that I'm telling you to take less Snipers...For more Bikes. I think you'll find I'm much the same Cheesegear as I've always been. :smallwink:Good point. :smallbiggrin:


...Judging from the rest of this segment of the post, I can, without reservation, say that the German version of the Eldar Codex is awesome. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:


No worries. /Australian.

The list looks much better. Partly because now you have more troops that are likely to move around a bit more, and have your opponent being forced to split his fire when faced with a tank with Fire Dragons in it, a unit of Scorpions and two units of Jetbikes. Its a much faster army, with more scary targets.Yay! :smallbiggrin:


The Warlock on Jetbike with Destructor Flames of Wrath pleases me. Though I might drop the Spear and go with the regular Witchblade. More attacks that way, and, in the Shooting phase, you can use Flames of Wrath or the Spear. I know which I'd use every phase.Except against Vehicles. I don't think the Guardians will want to get into assault anyway, and with the Spear they can do something against Vehicles as well if necessary, for a mere 3 points.


Thank you very much, once again. :smallsmile:

[SmartAlec]

...are you sure? Because I both distinctly remember seeing they used to have S3 and T3 in an older codex, and just googleing for that subjects reveals discussions where people state that (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/307200.page#1773570) they liked the old stats better. :smallconfused:

I was pretty sure. Then this discussion you linked made me doubt, so I rooted around and dug out my copy of the previous SM Codex; the one with Chapter Traits in it. And, indeed, Scouts did have the same statline as regular Marines in there.

I can't find my original 3rd Ed codex, but I'd swear blind on it being the same.

[Winterwind]

I was pretty sure. Then this discussion you linked made me doubt, so I rooted around and dug out my copy of the previous SM Codex; the one with Chapter Traits in it. And, indeed, Scouts did have the same statline as regular Marines in there.

I can't find my original 3rd Ed codex, but I'd swear blind on it being the same.Some more Google-usage tells me that apparently Scouts used to have S3 and T3 in 2nd edition and S4 and T4 ever since; this surprises me, since, as I said, I've played against someone once who didn't have the current SM codex and was using an older one, and I'm almost certain Scouts had S3 and T3 in there, too - I thought it was the 4th edition codex, but considering your evidence, that's evidently impossible. Odd. :smallconfused:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I never said don't take a Priest. They work with or without Jump Packs.

They work with jump packs in some lists and without them in others.


No different to having them in Rhinos. In fact, killing them is harder.

It isn't any differant, just alternative. I basically consider my priests to be rhino equivilants anyway.

I already have a mech Black Templars army with rhinos and land raiders, I didn't want to do the same thing with my Blood Angels. I'm also going mech with Dark Eldar.


Or you could use Drop Pods and guarantee their arrival on Turn 1, for free. They don't particularly need reduced Scatter since Drop Pods don't die. Its basically what Space Wolves do, and they don't have problems with it.

Drop pods cost £18 and are hard to transport in army cases. That may be a crappy arguement tactically but it still effects what list you take.

I wouldn't call Blood Angels drop pods "free".

10 assault marines, 2 melta guns, sergeant with power fist, drop pod
235 points

10 grey hunters, 2 melta guns, power fist, drop pod
215 points

The grey hunters lose 1 point of leadership and 1 power fist attack but gain bolt guns, counter-attack and are 20 points cheaper. I don't want to build a Blood Angels army that's a Space Wolf one but weaker but I'm fine with a Blood Angels army that's weaker than Space Wolves but unique and unreplicatable by Space Wolves (even though the tactical effect is the same).


So you don't get Priests in Drop Pods. So? Neither do Space Wolves. Are you too good for Space Wolves? :smallamused:

Your suicide units don't need a priest anyway, but there's nothing stopping you from turbo-boosting a bike priest or even deep striking a jump priest on turn 2 using the locator beacon on your drop pod. But then you have a priest on their own, which is another advantage to the bike priest who is at least T5 with a 3+ cover save.


You don't pay 60 points for a Razorback, since Heavy Flamers are free. On a Fast vehicle. Minimum-size squads are not crap when you have lots of them in vehicles that can't die.

All the net lists I saw had assault cannons, but heavy flamers are good too. If I put my Blood Angels list on the site that had those net lists they'd laugh.


Being S5 at I5 means you should never be dying against Power Weapons because your Assault Marines will have so many attacks at higher initiative. Its rarely a problem.

An independant character with a power weapon is often around I5, so he can easily kill your priest before the rest of your guys attack. I've done it with Black Templars.

10 assault marines is usually 25 (your special weapon guys don't have two weapons, otherwise its 27) non-power weapon attacks and then 3 power fist attacks. Add in 4 more attacks if the priest is there. From my experiance it isn't actually enough attacks to guarantee wiping out enemy units, especially not if they're in power armour or are also dedicated assault units.

Wyche unit leader is I6 and often has a power weapon that always wounds on 4+. She can easily kill the priest before the rest of your assault marines get to attack, meaning the whole unit doesn't even get furious charge (as per the FAQ). The only other I6 troops choice close combat unit I can think of is genestealers, so that's a rare circumstance I'll admit.

Scouts were WS 4 BS 3 S4 T3 W1 A 1 I 4 LD 7 in 2nd edition, but WS 4 BS 4 S4 T4 W1 A1 I4 LD8 from the 3rd edition pamplet codex with the crimson fists on the front.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook, page 67:
You were saying? :smalltongue:

Um...


Except that the rules explicitly say that you can charge a unit despite having shot at a different one in that specific situation


It's fun when I get told the same thing twice.


Not true. Page 67 of the rulebook, under the Effects of Damage Results on Passengers: "However, if a transport is destroyed by shooting (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

Been said.

edit: great, now I'm double posting and quoting a post that doesn't exist.

Silly thing I noticed: Mephiston, The Sanguinor and Deathcompany Tycho can all take an Honour Guard that they can't join.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I was reading a little about the Leman russ Vanquisher and I realized exactly how badly the rules reflect the fluff. The tank is supposed to be an awesome tank-killer that makes the enemies of the imperium think twice about sending in their tanks.

How would you guys redo it to make it a good choice in an imperial army?

Or am I the only one who feel this way?

[Incomp]

That, of course, goes on the fluff thread. However, that might be necromancy by now.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I posted here because of that very reason. But I could move it to the fluff tread. Problem is necromancy are not popular around here (or anywhere else for that matter).

[TheThan]

OK I plan on facing my bro’s tyranids Saturday. Might play my bro's mortifactors as well. Anyway I want some feedback on the list I’ve built. I tried to focus on mobility and shooting, with a small amount of Close combat to help peel infantry off of objectives.


HQ
Hamuculi x3 (joined unit of trueborn warriors)
Hex rifles, liquidfier guns, splinter pistol, CC weapon, gnarlskin

Elites
Kablalite trueborn (x7) 169
Splinter cannon x2, blaster x4, shard carbine, kabalite armor

Raider
Tormenter grenades, nightshields, disintegrator cannon

Blood brides x10
Razorflails x3, agonizer

Blood brides x10
Shardnet and implailer x3, agonizer

Raiders x2

Troops

Kabalite warriors (x10) x3
Splinter rifles

Raiders x3
splinter racks

Fast attack

Reaver jetbikes x6
Blaster x2, cluster caltrops

Heavy support

Voidraven bomber
Implosion missiles x4

[crazedloon]

HQ
Hamuculi x3 (joined unit of trueborn warriors)
Hex rifles, liquidfier guns, splinter pistol, CC weapon, gnarlskin

drop the rifles, they are wasted points. They may occasionally get an ID but you are better off spending the points on warriors who can just shoot more. otherwise not bad



Elites
Kablalite trueborn (x7) 169
Splinter cannon x2, blaster x4, shard carbine, kabalite armor

not a bad unit but the carbines are wasted points, they are only slightly better than a rifle (particularly because you do not intend on charging)



Raider
Tormenter grenades, nightshields, disintegrator cannon

this is a little bit of tailoring but i believe it is sound advise across the board. The grenades are not worth the points particularly vs nids which are normally fearless



Voidraven bomber
Implosion missiles x4


you are better off spending your points on the smaller missiles and using the saved points to buy more models. shatterfield are my favorite with st7 and the reroll on a large template meaning you are going to wound nearly 100% of the time on large enough scale to make models die.

the list as a whole is not bad but there are a lot of wasted points IMHO. I do not like bloodbrides, I rather play the larger unit of wytchs and bring them out of a webway (you can the same number of attacks on a larger unit for the same or nearly the same points) I like the bomber but needing the buy the missles makes my preference the fighter or a ravager. homunculi are great but only because of the pain token and webway as an upgrade.

just my opinion though

[Closet_Skeleton]

BS 4 and AP 1 would probably work to be honest. Maybe make it a small blast that never deviates more than 1d6, then it would be very accurate even with BS3 and its kind of illogical that such a huge gun wouldn't hit more than one guy if it hit a unit. Maybe even let it ignore a vehicle's cover saves.

As it stands if you give a Vanquisher a hull mounted lascannon then it will be as likely to kill something with that as with its main gun.

In Apocalypse, a squadron of vanquishers wouldn't be that bad at hurting super heavies, but a 72" range is irrelevant in normal 40k.

The vanquisher is just one of those things that the rules (or rather, how the game works) don't really favour at all.

The Punisher is pretty crap too. It should at least be rending if not AP 5 or 4, then it would actually be almost equivilant to 5 assault cannons. As it is its arguably worse than the three heavy bolters the thing can carry as well.

The main problem with the Leman Russ variants is just the point costs. If the Punisher was 130 and the Executioner 150 they'd be okay. GW just panicked and didn't want to make anything new the obviously better choice (and then they made the Bane Wolf, lol).

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I was thinking something along that line as well. I was thinking something like giving the Vanquisher cannon BS 4 due to some tech but the rest of the weapons BS 3.

It used to be that they could fire normal battle tank ammo instead of AT shells. But I don't want it to just be a better version of the standard Russ but something unique.

[TheThan]

The hex rifles and splinter cannons give my shooting reach, since without them I’m stuck to about 12” which is easy assault range. I could get 18 inches out of a bunch of carbines (speaking of which I got exactly ONE in there. Which I was thinking of dropping that guy entirely). 18 inches is chargeable, but not easily so as you need to be fleet and roll a 6 on their charge move (I’ve done it before hehe).

I figure on trying the bloodbrides out again, I wanted something to help push a unit off an objective, I figure a bunch of fast moving attacks is the way to do it. By putting them in raiders I can zip them around anywhere I need them to be.
I like the idea of the webway portal, I figure on building a close combat oriented army list next so I might try that tactic out. Anyway last game I played I tried out the fighter and it didn’t do much. So I figure I’d try the bomber out. Granted the beginning of that game was pretty ballz anyway.

Thanks for the advice, I’ll take it under advisement.

[Renegade Paladin]

BS 4 and AP 1 would probably work to be honest. Maybe make it a small blast that never deviates more than 1d6, then it would be very accurate even with BS3 and its kind of illogical that such a huge gun wouldn't hit more than one guy if it hit a unit. Maybe even let it ignore a vehicle's cover saves.
Nnnnnot really. It's pretty clearly firing AP ammunition, not HE or HEAT. Though why tanks in Warhammer can't carry a variety of shells the way tanks have done since the invention of the tank is beyond me.

[Talkkno]

Nnnnnot really. It's pretty clearly firing AP ammunition, not HE or HEAT. Though why tanks in Warhammer can't carry a variety of shells the way tanks have done since the invention of the tank is beyond me.

Tau Hammerhead tank can fire either AP or submution rounds, though fluffwise, Lemen Russes defiantly carry a variety of ammunation.( Ref Gunheads, excellent read BTW)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Nnnnnot really. It's pretty clearly firing AP ammunition, not HE or HEAT. Though why tanks in Warhammer can't carry a variety of shells the way tanks have done since the invention of the tank is beyond me.

It doesn't matter what kind of round it is, if it hits the ground with enough force it will create a blast effect. Just saying "AP" by itself isn't really specific enough anyway. Even a non-HEAT AP shell has an explosive charge in it.

The hexrifles are okay, but taking them and the liquifier guns seems wrong.

Really I would split the haemonculi up, Blood Brides are pretty obviously designed to work well in 9s anyway.


Tau Hammerhead tank can fire either AP or submution rounds, though fluffwise, Lemen Russes defiantly carry a variety of ammunation.( Ref Gunheads, excellent read BTW)

Which of course makes no sense, since a railgun should fire its projectiles with enough force to vapourise them the moment they hit something, making the exact kind of projectile irrelevant. Unless one of those shells is airburst, but even then a railgun isn't very good at that.

[hamishspence]

There were special rules in Imperial Armour I (the thick book) for different types of tank shells in the same tank.

Might be good for more versatile Leman Russes.


It doesn't matter what kind of round it is, if it hits the ground with enough force it will create a blast effect. Just saying "AP" by itself isn't really specific enough anyway. Even a non-HEAT AP shell has an explosive charge in it.

In the fluff, isn't the Vanquisher shell a sabot round- not explosive at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator

[Talkkno]

Which of course makes no sense, since a railgun should fire its projectiles with enough force to vapourise them the moment they hit something, making the exact kind of projectile irrelevant. Unless one of those shells is airburst, but even then a railgun isn't very good at that.

Couldn't they just dail a yield? EG: Adjust the amount they power they put in the shot?

[DaedalusMkV]

Which of course makes no sense, since a railgun should fire its projectiles with enough force to vapourise them the moment they hit something, making the exact kind of projectile irrelevant. Unless one of those shells is airburst, but even then a railgun isn't very good at that.

Railgun Submunitions aren't explosives; as you said, that wouldn't work. They're more like mega-shotguns. After leaving the barrel, the projectile shatters into a number of smaller rounds, which saturate an area with chunks of high-velocity metallic death. It's basically the same principle as Grapeshot in cannons, just fired at rediculously high speeds and using sophisticated electronics to control the spread.

The Vanquisher used to be able to choose between AP and HE rounds in the old FW rules; they changed it in the new codex because they didn't want it to be just a superior, more flexible Leman Russ.

[TheThan]

It doesn't matter what kind of round it is, if it hits the ground with enough force it will create a blast effect. Just saying "AP" by itself isn't really specific enough anyway. Even a non-HEAT AP shell has an explosive charge in it.

The hexrifles are okay, but taking them and the liquifier guns seems wrong.

Really I would split the haemonculi up, Blood Brides are pretty obviously designed to work well in 9s anyway.




Yeah that would work, though grouping them with two hamuculi gives you both feel no pain and furious charge out the door. Which is nasty on wytches. You can potentially get s5 on the charge with a lucky combat drugs roll. though i will admit feel no pain makes them quite durable in close combat (as you get your 4+ invul save first), just watch out for power weapons and the like.

The idea behind the hex rifle + liquifier gun is to whittle them down at range with the hex rifles and splinter cannons, then move in for the kill with the liquifier guns and blasters.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I have another raider and some Incubi built now, so I can play 1000 points if I take Lelith, but that still doesn't sound like a good idea.

My list would be:

Archon
agoniser, clone field, combat drugs, ghostplate armour and phantasm grenade launcher
145 points

Lelith
175 points

4 Incubi
Klaivex with Onslaught and Demiklaives (except the models don't have a demiklaive option :smallfurious:)
Venom
Nightshields, chainsnares, two splinter cannons
233 points

9 Wyches
Hekatrix with agoniser and phantasm grenade launcher, shardnet and impaler, haywire grenades
Raider
Nightshields, chain snares
233 points
(hmm... same as Incubi)
10 Warriors
blaster, splinter cannon, sybarite with venom blade
Raider
Nightshields, flickerfield, splinter racks
210 points

total 993 points


I could of course make more points by splitting the warriors into two groups of five and turning the wyches into Bloodbrides, but that feels silly.

[TheThan]

That looks like a reasonable list for 1000 points. There is really not much I can say to make that list better. I’m not fully sold on the clone field, mostly because I like pissing people off with the shadow field. 2+ invulnerable saves make people mad. Hehe first time I used it, my bro accused me of being a cheap ass bastard. :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja Chocobo]

So, since my Ork army went away, I've not had anything to play 40k with lately.
As a result, I was considering starting a Space Shark army in the not-too-distant future. No, not Carcharodons, Space Sharks.
Space Sharks 1750
HQ 260 points
Shark Lord
Thundershark Mount
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Runic Armour
Saga of the Bearshark (http://nedroidcomics.livejournal.com/235021.html)

Elites 440 points
Shark Guard x10
Terminators x7
Cyclone Missile Launchers x2
Power Fist x3 (not on termies)
Drop Pod
((Power Fists join Grey Hunters, CMLs join Long Fins))

Troops 525 points
Grey Hunters x9
Meltagun
Drop Pod
(x3)

Fast Attack 315 points
Thundershark Cavalry x3
Storm Shield x3
Thunder Hammer, Ocean Axe, Shark Jaw

Heavy Support 210 points
Long Fins x5
Heavy Bolters x2
Missile Launchers x2
(x2)

[Cheesegear]

As a result, I was considering starting a Space Shark army in the not-too-distant future. No, not Carcharodons, Space Sharks.

I'd tone down the Shark Guard, and get another unit of White Hunters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_white_shark). Need four Troops in 1500+. I'd probably grab Combi-Meltas on the Shark Guard attached to the White Hunters while I was at it.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I'd tone down the Shark Guard, and get another unit of White Hunters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_white_shark). Need four Troops in 1500+. I'd probably grab Combi-Meltas on the Shark Guard attached to the White Hunters while I was at it.

I thought about that. But then I realised I'd have to drop the CMLs. But now I realise with the saved points I can up the MLs on the Long Fins. And it gives me the odd-numbered Drop Pods. Hooray.
Also I thought about White Hunters but really just about every shark is grey so

Revisions:
Shark Guard x4
4x Power Fist
4x Combi-Melta
Drop Pod

Long Fins x5
4x Missile Launchers

Shark Lord
Oothecan Shark x2

Grey Hunters (x4)
One squad has a Mark of the Sharkin.

[TheThan]

I’d drop the mount and bring the HQ and the shark guard in a land sea raider crusader. That way the enemy has something survivable to shoot at while your drop pods come in from behind. I’d also up the number of grey shark units to 4 (saw you’ve done that) and drop the cavalry and the heavy bolters out of the devastators long fangs fins and bring two more missile launchers. Also why is Arjack nowhere to be found? Space wolves are designed to be a delivery system for special characters and I see none.


Also we need a title for the next thread, seeing as we’re on page 49.

[Closet_Skeleton]

How about "Mech is king? I didn't vote for it."

[Winterwind]

How about "Mech is king? I didn't vote for it."Seconded. Oh, so very seconded. :smallbiggrin:

[Incomp]

How about "Mech is king? I didn't vote for it."

You, my friend, have just won an internet.

[Cheesegear]

"Mech is king? I didn't vote for it."

The first suggestion is a winner.

[Ninja Chocobo]

stuff

So you're saying:
Take more Missile Launchers on Long Fins (done)
Take Shark Guard Termies in a LRC with Arjac (not a bad idea)
Drop the Thundersharks. This would make my list significantly less jawesome.
Also the idea with the Shark Lord was that he wasn't actually going to join the TSCs; I think he'd do just fine on his own.
Also also it remains a Land Raider since it was named after Arkhan Land, not the fact it travels over land.

[TheThan]

Battle report

So I got my game in today, only instead of fighting Blitz’s tryanids I ended up fighting a friend’s space wolves force. which is ok.

I lost initiative and didn’t steal it, so my opponent went first. We rolled dawn of war (hate it) and the one with two objectives. The objectives were in opposite corners from each other. I also forgot t roll combat drugs.

My opponent had 4 15 man units of blood claws, 1 unit of long fangs, a rune priest and a wolf lord with lightening claws and a unit of wolf guard terminators squadded out into each unit of blood claws and long fangs.


Turn 1
So he deployed right at the edge of his deployment zone, on either side of the board, kept one unit back with his devastators sitting back on his objective. I chose not to deploy on my turn, in order to keep from getting hammered by shooting. So he just moved forward.

Turn two
I zipped in from the edge, surrounding the blood claws closest to my objective. I screwed up and forgot to have my wytches jump out and assault, and I forgot to bomb the same unit with my void raven (in fact, I forgot to shoot it at all this turn.) I surrounded him with transports and shot the squad down to like 6 marines.
I also zipped my unit of bikes over another unit, hitting it with bladevanes. Managed to kill about three models. But they were now sandwiched in-between two units of infantry, so I turned around and assaulted the unit, they died horribly to those blood claws.

Turn three
His melta gun popped a transport taking the wytches in it with it when it went. That’s about all he was able to do. this turn I remembered to fire off my void raven, using those missiles I nearly wiped out the unit of bloodclaws with the wolf lord. a combination of shooting and close combat from my other squad of wyches finshed off the first unit of blood claws, earning my wyches a blood token, which means feel now pain is now theirs.

Turn four
A lucky shot knocked some warriors out of their transport. He then moved forward with the marines that slaughtered my bikes then assaulted the surviving troops, slaughtering them. This put him into close combat range of my wyches which (hehe) assaulted. decided to stay away from those devastators this turn, so I zipped my voidraven around the back field shooting the lance guns at his HQ which survived due to cover, I did the same thing with my HQ unit. He decided to try his luck with bolt pistoling my transport, which did nothing.
We tied in close combat, so we were stuck fighting.

Turn four
The wyches and blood claws stayed locked in close combat; I took him down to his power fist, terminator (storm shields and thunder hammers all) and his rune priest. His wolf lord decided he wanted to try to contest my objective so he hoofed it over to it.

I kept shooting at him, and he just wouldn’t die. By this time I knew I didn’t have enough firepower to take his objective, so I played for the tie.

Turn five
His turn I took him down to his power fist, terminator (storm shields and thunder hammers all) and his rune priest. So I figured I had this made, I flew my bomber and my HQ over to try to harass his defending unit of marines that were sitting on his objective. Hoping I could make a play for the win (stupid at this point). This was a huge mistake. As he managed to beat my wyches and scare them off the table. I managed to would his wolf lord a gain via shooting so now he’s down to one wound.

Turn six
He smashed my voidraven into pieces and shot my HQ out of their transport. But I was ok with that, as now I am close enough to liquify his unit of guys. Which is exactly what happened. I rolled AP 1, 2 and 6 for the liquidfiers, which smashed all but the rune priest, then he died to the four blasters I had in the squad.
His HQ managed to make it onto my objective, so I shot the crap out of him, he went to ground, but that didn’t save him.


So I managed to hold my objective and play for the tie. I’m happy with the results even though I made some big mistakes.

So what did I learn?
1: don’t assault with jet bikes
2: don’t fly near terminators with thunderhammers
3: don’t forget your special weapons (wyches)
4: remember your combat drugs

All in all I did fairly well. The hexrifles failed spectacularly, but the implosion missiles we stellar. I brought them to deal with tyranid infantry, it just happened to work against a space marine infantry army. If I was going to make this a bit more of an all comes army, I’d probably only bring one or two. I think 2 of them and 2 of the str 7 missiles would be pretty solid.

[Razaele]

I had a few practice games with a couple of friends today. I was finally able to play test a 1000 point army based on Cheesegear's Scout spam list.



Librarian with Machine Curse and Avenger [100]

Scouts x10 with Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher [150]

Scouts x10 with Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher [150]

Scouts x10 with Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher [150]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]



I ended up fighting 3 battles today, once with a Space Wolf Army and twice with a Blood Angels army.

First thing I learned is that Fast Vehicles + Dawn of War = Dead shooty army. There was nothing I could do (at least, nothing that I could think of) as the Blood Angels player utilized his superior maneuverability to pretty much just get into assault the moment I got my models into a shooting position. Flying Dreadnoughts are just not funny.

I got a draw with a Space Wolf player, who pretty much just took two squads of Grey Hunters and made them go to ground on his objective while I tried to shoot them into submission. I was able to blow up all of his transports, his Thunderwolves, and most of his Long Fangs, but 20 models with a 3+ cover save was just too much for me.

The last game that I had was against the Blood Angels player once again. He used a different list this time around, but still managed to destroy me utterly. I'm honestly not sure if it's just the terrain that we had, or that I was at fault during deployment, but he just rolled through a lot of difficult terrain and got his Rhinos REALLY CLOSE during the first turn. Then, a couple of bad rolls later, I was only able to destroy one of his Rhinos. He then proceeded to assault me until I cried uncle.:smallsigh:

I'm a firm believer of shooty armies, but for the life of me I still can't get the hang of using them properly. Can anyone describe or show me pictures of what terrain should REALLY be like? Because honestly, I get the feeling that we use too much terrain and our terrain pieces are too tall. Also, if anybody could throw in some advice about deployment, minimizing cover saves for my opponent, and pretty much just how to win with a shooty army, that would be just peachy.:smallsmile:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I had a sudden urge to take

Grey Knights Brother Captain
Psychic Hood, Incinerator, Word of the Emperor
111 points

In a Black Templars army and run him with some assault terminators in a land raider crusader. Initially I had intended to just give him the psychic hood for 81 points, but then I looked at the rest of the equipment list and had to stop myself giving him the situational sacred insense and Grimoir of True Names as well when I should be spending points on more black templars. Should probably drop word of the emperor too, but when I noticed that you could put heavy weapons on characters I couldn't resist.

[TheThan]

Looking back at my list, I think I’m going to drop the bikes in favor of scourges. They’re the same points cost per model and likely to prove to be a better unit anyway. I’m also loosing the hex rifles and downgrading the missiles.

Now here’s a question, should the talos and cronos engines be taken on skimmer bases or monstrous creature bases? Under the new codex they’re monstrous creatures, but the model for the talos is mounted on a skimmer base. I’m a bit confused here.

Ninja Chocobo:
If you really want to bring the shark lord on a mount, then you really do want to throw him in with the unit of cavalry, otherwise he’ll become target practice for any heavy weapons out there. The wolf guard termies are a great deathstar unit, they’ll smash almost anything out there in close combat, and draw enough firepower to keep your grey hunters alive. They’re not necessary for an effective army, but they certainly help. If you bring Grimnar then they count as troops and can hold objectives.

Also you might want to consider Canis wolfSharkborn, he’s not the best HQ available, but he’s highly flavorful and pretty good in close combat. When you bring him, Fenrisian wolves sharks count as troops. So you could throw him into a unit and have yourself a little feeding frenzy in close combat.

[Winterwind]

First thing I learned is that Fast Vehicles + Dawn of War = Dead shooty army. There was nothing I could do (at least, nothing that I could think of) as the Blood Angels player utilized his superior maneuverability to pretty much just get into assault the moment I got my models into a shooting position.Just to make sure there is no rules misinterpretation going on here - you are aware that if the Rhinos have moved, the Marines inside cannot assault anymore that turn, right? Admittedly, if he uses his smoke launchers after his first movement, that can still bring him very close to your lines and allow him to leave and potentially still assault on the subsequent turn, but Dawn of War or not, you should have at the very least one turn of good shooting at him.

Though yes, Dawn of War is horrible for shooty armies.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Dawn of War is horrible for most armies. Its basically the "see how well you can do when everything is screwed up" deployment type.

[crazedloon]

Looking back at my list, I think I’m going to drop the bikes in favor of scourges. They’re the same points cost per model and likely to prove to be a better unit anyway. I’m also loosing the hex rifles and downgrading the missiles.

scourges and bikes fill 2 very different roles.
The bikes are great for hunting down long fang squads which lack the models to absorb the vane attacks and would waste a round of shooting targeting the bikes (since fang units main target is vehicles) also from the looks of it you assaulted after using the vanes which is not possible since you can not assault the turn you turbo boosted. you want to end your turbo boosts out of range of assault and LoS of most enemy troops. the other boon reavers have is they are great for last second objective contesting

Scourges on the other hand are great for striking tanks which tend to hang in the back. They can deepstrike and hit rear armor (and they can effectively hit the tank 2 times since you still roll damage in addition to haywire effect) they also can take Long fang like units but need larger units to be legal and there are more of a points investment.

the implosion missles (at least that many if any at all) are rarely worth it. You spent 120 on missles. That is the point cost for an entire ravager with optional upgrades. In your opinion did the missles do more than a ravager?


Now here’s a question, should the talos and cronos engines be taken on skimmer bases or monstrous creature bases? Under the new codex they’re monstrous creatures, but the model for the talos is mounted on a skimmer base. I’m a bit confused here.

it should be put on a skimmer base since that is what it comes on, however I may suggest waiting for the new model to come out (or is it just me who is hoping for a new model :smalltongue:)

also you will find the talos and cronos are not worth it without a webway as they are far too slow to keep up with the rest of the army and will have little effect because of short ranged weapons

[TheThan]

scourges and bikes fill 2 very different roles.
The bikes are great for hunting down long fang squads which lack the models to absorb the vane attacks and would waste a round of shooting targeting the bikes (since fang units main target is vehicles) also from the looks of it you assaulted after using the vanes which is not possible since you can not assault the turn you turbo boosted. you want to end your turbo boosts out of range of assault and LoS of most enemy troops. the other boon reavers have is they are great for last second objective contesting


I’ve not really given up on the bikes, one thing is I’m trying to get them to do things they aren’t designed to do and that’s’ frustrating me. So I think I’m going to put them on the backburner and try out some other options.




Scourges on the other hand are great for striking tanks which tend to hang in the back. They can deepstrike and hit rear armor (and they can effectively hit the tank 2 times since you still roll damage in addition to haywire effect) they also can take Long fang like units but need larger units to be legal and there are more of a points investment.

I plan on taking a ten man squad with two blasters and two splinter cannons and keep on the move. If I’m careful I should be able to open up most vehicles with the blasters, pop heavy infantry like terminators and generally just make people groan. They seem to be great fire support, I could just throw dark lances on them and sit them somewhere to blow something up. but I think I’ll try the mobile fire support idea first and see how they handle.



the implosion missles (at least that many if any at all) are rarely worth it. You spent 120 on missles. That is the point cost for an entire ravager with optional upgrades. In your opinion did the missles do more than a ravager?

The missiles were effective in this scenario. That’s the problem with them, their effectiveness is highly situational. I see them being effective against tryanids mostly. Every other army has the option to pack their troops in transports of some sort, nid’s don’t. So I see it working well against them. I think the str 7 missiles with the rerolls are the best option for most situations. Also you might as well take the fighter, as you get the same amount for less and pay the same price for the vehicle itself. Heck I’d also upgrade the splinter rifles to splinter cannons, so all your weapons have reach and you get a heavy 6 poison gun, it works out to less than the cost as the bomber with 4 implosion missiles. I’m only missing the single shot bomb and the str 9 dark lances.



it should be put on a skimmer base since that is what it comes on, however I may suggest waiting for the new model to come out (or is it just me who is hoping for a new model :smalltongue:)

Ahh I see, so that shouldn’t be too hard to proxy. I’d like to get a forge world brass scorpion as a counts as peice, but the model is too expensive and far too large, though it would look pretty badass. If I ever get the cash, I might splurge on a forgeworld raven fighter to count as a razorwing, unless they release a model for the flyers. though the raven fits the old models i have pretty well.



also you will find the talos and cronos are not worth it without a webway as they are far too slow to keep up with the rest of the army and will have little effect because of short ranged weapons


Shhh! I was trying to not let the cat out of the bag.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Ninja Chocobo:

I have read the codex, you realise.
Point taken on the Lord; I'll only split him off when he's closer to the lines.

[TheThan]

I have read the codex, you realise.
Point taken on the Lord; I'll only split him off when he's closer to the lines.

The thing on the terminators is more of a tactical thing, also you’d be amazed how many people don’t know their own codex. I mean I’ve come across a lot of people that misconstrue “and they shall know no fear” to mean they have the fearless special rule.

[cdstephens]

I might eventually pick this up within a year or two, but I have no idea what race I would pick. I have experience playing DoW though, and read a bit of a book.

[Razaele]

Just to make sure there is no rules misinterpretation going on here - you are aware that if the Rhinos have moved, the Marines inside cannot assault anymore that turn, right? Admittedly, if he uses his smoke launchers after his first movement, that can still bring him very close to your lines and allow him to leave and potentially still assault on the subsequent turn, but Dawn of War or not, you should have at the very least one turn of good shooting at him.

Though yes, Dawn of War is horrible for shooty armies.

Yes, I am aware of this rule. The problem was that he got first turn, which let him move his Death Company with a Reclusiarch in a Rhino into my deployment zone. His Flying Dreadnought of doom was then flew 24', while the rest of the army zoomed along at 18'. Since almost my entire army has Heavy weapons, I could not shoot on the first turn. I also tried to avoid his army by deploying my Devastators as far as I possibly could, with my Scouts acting as a screen. Yes, I did have an entire turn of shooting. But before I got to shoot, he moved 18' with his Rhino then popped smoke, and flew his Librarian Dreadnought another 24' to give it a 3+ cover save. Needless to say, I was not able to do much damage. In fact, I only ever got to stun his Rhino, and by then it was too little too late.


Dawn of War is horrible for most armies. Its basically the "see how well you can do when everything is screwed up" deployment type.

Yeah, but to be honest I feel that Assault armies are a lot less gimped by this than Shooty armies. This could be my inexperience talking though, and I could be wrong.

[Psychotic]

Yes, I am aware of this rule. The problem was that he got first turn, which let him move his Death Company with a Reclusiarch in a Rhino into my deployment zone. His Flying Dreadnought of doom was then flew 24', while the rest of the army zoomed along at 18'. Since almost my entire army has Heavy weapons, I could not shoot on the first turn. I also tried to avoid his army by deploying my Devastators as far as I possibly could, with my Scouts acting as a screen. Yes, I did have an entire turn of shooting. But before I got to shoot, he moved 18' with his Rhino then popped smoke, and flew his Librarian Dreadnought another 24' to give it a 3+ cover save. Needless to say, I was not able to do much damage. In fact, I only ever got to stun his Rhino, and by then it was too little too late.



Yeah, but to be honest I feel that Assault armies are a lot less gimped by this than Shooty armies. This could be my inexperience talking though, and I could be wrong.


It's because he cheated. The "Flying Dreadnought of Doom" (Librarian Dread) that has cast Wings of Sanguinius can only move 12" just like any jump infantry, not bike or jetbike. Jump Infantry cannot turbo boost, although they can take a run action in lieu of shooting.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's because he cheated. The "Flying Dreadnought of Doom" (Librarian Dread) that has cast Wings of Sanguinius can only move 12" just like any jump infantry, not bike or jetbike. Jump Infantry cannot turbo boost, although they can take a run action in lieu of shooting.

Wings of Sanguinius does let a biker librarian fly like a jetbike though, which is an idea for an awesome conversion but little else.

Only way to make a dreadnought fly 24" is to put him in a Storm Raven.

[Razaele]

Oh dear. Well, I wouldn't say he cheated since I know him very well. He's new to the Blood Angels rules so he probably just remembered the rules wrong. Oh well, lesson learned. I think I had better start boning up on the Blood Angels Codex myself, since everyone in our local club seems to be moving from other Space Marine Codices to the Blood Angels Codex.

[Zorg]

Since we've hit the big 5-0 and the convos seem to have been concluded for the moment, new thread time!



NEW THREAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)





_

[Closet_Skeleton]

aaah, new thread popped up just as I posted.