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true_shinken
2010-08-26, 05:22 PM
Hello, guys.
I've been playing in a 4e game with a tiefling bard, but I feel somewhat... disappointed. I talked to the DM and he will allow me to change characters, but I still don't know what to build.

We are talking 3rd level here. DM has a few restrictions - no swordmages and no hybrids, for starters. Nothing from FR campaign setting, as well. Ftom Eberron I can only use artificer-related stuff.

So, what I want/need for this:

Dex-focus. I want decent initiative and Stealth.
Cha-focus. I'm the party face.
Healing powers.
Decent damage dealing ability.


Basically, I want a strikerish leader or a leaderish striker. Bonus if I get to dual wield. Thoughts on this?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-26, 05:32 PM
Yeah, all four of those is going to be tricky.

If you can do without the dex, I'd suggest InsLord.
If you can do without the healing, rogue and assassin are good choices.
If you can do without the damage dealing, Bard is the obvious pick.

Warlords are probably your best bet on a strikerish healer. Any multiclass feat is your best bet for a leaderish striker.

AtopTheMountain
2010-08-26, 05:36 PM
This is probably going to be long, so I'm 90% sure I'll be ninja'd.

Off the top of my head, I don't think there are any dex/cha-based classes with healing powers. Let's look.

Leaders:
Ardent (Charisma, Constitution, Wisdom? Can't remember the last one...)
Bard (Charisma, Constitution, Intelligence)
Cleric (Strength, Wisdom, Charisma)
Runepriest (Strength, Constitution, Wisdom)
Shaman (Wisdom, Constitution, Intelligence)
Warlord (Strength, Intelligence, Charisma)
Strikers:
Avenger (Wisdom, Intelligence, Dexterity)
Barbarian (Strength, Constitution, Charisma)
Monk (Dexterity, Strength, Wisdom)
Ranger (Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom)
Rogue (Dexterity, Charisma, Strength)
Sorcerer (Charisma, Strength, Dexterity)
Warlock (Charisma, Constitution, Intelligence)
So yeah, it doesn't seem like you can pull this off very easily. If you were using hybrids, I might suggest a Bard|Rogue or Bard|Warlock, but your DM disallowed that for reasons I don't understand. So it looks like you'll have to give up some things. Multiclassing can get you where you want, but you have to spend a lot of feats on it, and it's not as effective as hybriding.

EDIT: Also, Kurald's advice is solid. For a ninja. :smallwink:

true_shinken
2010-08-26, 05:36 PM
Warlords are probably your best bet on a strikerish healer. Any multiclass feat is your best bet for a leaderish striker.

Yeah, I thought that as well. But Warlords don't get the stats I want and getting healing just froma multiclass feat seems pretty weak. The most I could squeeze out of it was Healing skill power but that's about it.



So yeah, it doesn't seem like you can pull this off very easily. If you were using hybrids, I might suggest a Bard|Rogue or Bard|Warlock, but your DM disallowed that for reasons I don't understand. So it looks like you'll have to give up some things. Multiclassing can get you where you want, but you have to spend a lot of feats on it, and it's not as effective as hybriding.

Yeah, hybrid would solve my issues, but the DM disallowed'em, I don't know why as well.

Starsinger
2010-08-26, 05:37 PM
Ask your DM if you can make a Centered Breath Monk (Dex-Wis) and use Charisma instead of Wisdom. When you hit level 11 take Radiant Fist as your Paragon Path (I like the Moon domain's Channel Divinity as a light heal per encounter) and multiclass bard for a daily Inspiring Word.

dsmiles
2010-08-26, 05:39 PM
Yeah, all four of those is going to be tricky.

If you can do without the dex, I'd suggest InsLord.
If you can do without the healing, rogue and assassin are good choices.
If you can do without the damage dealing, Bard is the obvious pick.

Warlords are probably your best bet on a strikerish healer. Any multiclass feat is your best bet for a leaderish striker.

Kurald,

Do you think it could be done with the hybrid character rules in PHB3. I'm pretty sure that we could come up with something. Maybe Ranger/InsLord hybrid or Bard/InsLord hybrid?

AtopTheMountain
2010-08-26, 05:40 PM
Kurald,

Do you think it could be done with the hybrid character rules in PHB3. I'm pretty sure that we could come up with something. Maybe Ranger/InsLord hybrid or Bard/InsLord hybrid?

The OP said no hybrids. Unfortunately.

true_shinken
2010-08-26, 05:41 PM
Ask your DM if you can make a Centered Breath Monk (Dex-Wis) and use Charisma instead of Wisdom. When you hit level 11 take Radiant Fist as your Paragon Path (I like the Moon domain's Channel Divinity as a light heal per encounter) and multiclass bard for a daily Inspiring Word.

Well, if I could just swap stats altogether like this, the whole thing wouldn't be an issue at all.

Starsinger
2010-08-26, 05:44 PM
Well yes, but there's little reason for Centered Breath to be Wisdom instead of Charisma, but beyond that without being a hybrid... your next best bet is Sorcerer Wild Sorcerer (Cha-Dex) with as many radiant powers as you can get, multiclass cleric for healing word, and there's a holy symbol that heals an ally for Enhancement Bonus everytime you hit with a radiant power you'd want to look into.

true_shinken
2010-08-26, 05:48 PM
Well yes, but there's little reason for Centered Breath to be Wisdom instead of Charisma

This is kind of a hard point to argue. Monks have always been Wisdom based, after all. Anyway, there is no way I could get my DM to change the base stats of any class.

dsmiles
2010-08-26, 05:58 PM
The OP said no hybrids. Unfortunately.

Sorry, musta missed that.

Leolo
2010-08-26, 05:59 PM
Assassin - multiclassed into warlord or bard?

Loren
2010-08-26, 06:07 PM
wait for phb4?
frankly you have some goals that are are contrary, namely healing and hitting. As I'm sure you know healing is the perview of leaders and big damage is the perview of strikers. Now the catch is Leaders can hit some times (and deal significant damage too), but strikers can not heal.
Ergo, to make this work I think you are going to need to go with a leader if you want an alternative to the multiclassing posted above. Furthermore, leaders tend to use a fair bit of cha and generally be good faces.
As Metalhead's post observed, there appear not to be any leaders that make a significant use out of dex (except possibly the ardent). Is this a critical point? Could you convince you DM that the Weapon Finesse feat should be ported over from 3.5?

Truthfully, you may be well served by looking closely at the powers in the classes to see if you can find one that will have an acceptible damage out put. Also, initiative and Stealth can be faked through feats.
So, for instance a clerk with improved intiative and skill training stealth, could be quick on the draw, sneaky (using light armour), heal, and have a decent damage out put. Maybe throw in a rogue multiclass at some point to get sneak attack, or a warlock multiclass or something to up the damage output/options.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-26, 06:07 PM
Kurald,

Do you think it could be done with the hybrid character rules in PHB3.

I'm not sure. It strikes me that most leader/striker hybrids end up being not that good at striking, and not that good at leading either; and they're rather feat-heavy which is tricky at level 3. Besides, yeah, OP said no hybrids.

...you can get some decent damage out of a paladin, assuming Divine Power is in play. Would that work?

true_shinken
2010-08-26, 06:17 PM
...you can get some decent damage out of a paladin, assuming Divine Power is in play. Would that work?

My first thought, really.
Unfortunatelly, Paladins get NOTHING from high Dex. If only there was an 'agile paladin' build, it would be perfect.

Loren
2010-08-26, 06:25 PM
would you be fine with using feats to simulate a decent dex? If so make the paladin with a moderate dex and take feats like Improved initiative, Quick Draw, Stealth Training and a background with suitable feature. The character will function roughly like they have a high dex while you use your ability points elsewhere.

Excession
2010-08-26, 07:08 PM
I've played a medium-Dex Cha based paladin before (see avatar) and there are a few things you get from it:

- Good Init.
- A little Stealth, until you put on plate and heavy shield that is.
- Good Ref defence.
- A few nice feats require high Dex, though mostly in paragon, notably:
+ Shield specialisation, which is slightly better than plate spec.
+ Defensive advantage.
+ Heavy or light blade feats, though heavy also requires Str.

Problem is, this build is a defender with a few healing powers. It's no substitute for leader, and while it can be accurate (weapon attacks vs. Will) it's no striker either.

I would recommend an inspiring or bravura warlord, Str primary, Cha secondary, and use Dex as your tertiary stat. It would be useful for feats along with the init and stealth boosts. Half-orc would do for race imo, the racial power will help you deal more damage. Halfling could work too, especially if you're going to be using light blades anyway as the small size doesn't hurt you then.

Possible build:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Half-Orc, Warlord
Build: Bravura Warlord
Warlord: Combat Leader
Commanding Presence: Bravura Presence
Background: Occupation - Criminal (Stealth class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 18 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 15
HP: 34 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +8, Stealth +7, Diplomacy +9, Intimidate +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +1, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering, Heal, History +1, Insight, Nature, Perception, Religion +1, Streetwise +4, Thievery +2, Athletics +4

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Waraxe)
Level 2: Skill Power

POWERS
Skill Power: Inspiring Fortitude
Warlord at-will 1: Furious Smash
Warlord at-will 1: Intuitive Strike
Warlord encounter 1: Hammer and Anvil
Warlord daily 1: Lamb to the Slaughter
Warlord utility 2: Encouraging Boost
Warlord encounter 3: Warlord's Strike

ITEMS
Waraxe, Chainmail, Light Shield, Adventurer's Kit
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-26, 07:36 PM
Rogue or Assassin do 90% of what you need. Take a synergistic healing-powered-multiclass and you're pretty much there. Dex and Cha, decent sneaky, speaky, stabby, and a bit of healing for when it's really needed.

I'd probably suggest Rogue in this case because you'll find them a bit more durable, they use the same stats depending on how you build, and are more likely to get mileage out of the particular weapons.

You can weild two weapons no problem, though if you want to get some actual benefit, take two different types to increase your options and some of the two weapon related feats to boost defence/offence slightly.

One option you might want to try is Drow Rogue, go Dagger + hand crossbow. You get to attack at any kind of range, your stats match the class, and you get a few racial feats to pick over that improve the mixed weapons fighting style in question.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-26, 07:38 PM
Rouge with MC Cleric Feat?

Urpriest
2010-08-26, 07:46 PM
Oddly enough, I'd go back to your old build, but change Tiefling to Gnome. Your Stealth won't be as good since you won't emphasize Dex, but Gnomes get enough Stealth support that you may still be able to sneak decently. As for Init, use the Orb that lets you add Int to Init, and be an Int-build. You'd lose out on the two-weapon fighting unless you did cheaty implement-switching stuff, but at least the option is there. Go crazy with bard multiclassing in order to make yourself strikerish.

The perfect build for you would probably be the Ninja Team Leader build from the WotC forums, but unfortunately it's a hybrid. It's Dex based, Cha based, strikery, leadery, and has no reason not to dualwield (though you'd have to shuffle the build some to benefit from it).

chaotoroboto
2010-08-26, 07:49 PM
Another alternative - a complete rebuild on your bard.

I know that sounds dumb, but think about it - especially with the limited power set available to any given character at 3rd level, each style of any given class is going to play wildly different.

Other things to consider:
- Having a skill trained provides a bigger bonus than going from a middling stat to a high one, and the same applies to improved initiative and skill focus. You can lose the Dex and be okay if you burn the training/feats.
- Sorcerers can have your stat blocks, but you won't be healing w/o multiclassing or brewing potions. But sorcerers are more fun to play than healers are.
- Because of the limited power options in any given encounter prior to 5th level, you can't really get a feel for a class.

Except that you've said you don't want to play a bard, everything else you've said sounds like you want to play a bard. I'd try a greatbow build, myself; that's likely to have the highest single target damage output. Has anyone posted an optimized one of those to look at?

Loren
2010-08-26, 08:11 PM
I found a shiny feat you might be interested in: Meelee Training (Dexterity). It uses you dex for you basic meelee attacks and damage. I'd expect most DMs to allow the principle to carry over to your powers, although I'm not sure that the rules as written support that.
It could make a dex Paladin of warlord a more doable option.

Urpriest
2010-08-26, 08:21 PM
I found a shiny feat you might be interested in: Meelee Training (Dexterity). It uses you dex for you basic meelee attacks and damage. I'd expect most DMs to allow the principle to carry over to your powers, although I'm not sure that the rules as written support that.
It could make a dex Paladin of warlord a more doable option.

The rules as written don't support that in any way shape or form, and based on what's been said earlier in this thread, the DM isn't open to that sort of sweeping change.

Oooh hey, I have an idea! One that fits all of the criteria!

Thaneborn Barbarian.

You get: Cha: it's your official secondary stat. Dex: you need it for AC, so you will keep it high. It's basically an unofficial secondary stat. Strikeriness: Barbs are nice strikers. Leaderiness: and you're part of their (reasonably good, and MCs warlord well) leader build. TWF: Poach from Whirling Barb powers!

It all fits!

Thajocoth
2010-08-26, 08:37 PM
Which is more important, the healing or the damage? This effects whether you should pick a Leader or Striker. In either case you can multiclass for a tiny bit of the other.

Sorcerer, Rogue, Bard and Assassin appear to be your choices. (For Cha & Dex as your best two stats.) It's possible that Sorcerer, Rogue or Assassin might have some self-healing utilities... Training in Heal unlocks a few as well, if that helps.

Halfling, Changeling, Drow, Goblin & Kenku are your most optimal races, as they can all be Cha/Dex.

An Assassin, Sorcerer or Rogue can benefit from Dual-wielding, but not with multiple attacks. For a Sorc, this is 2 implements, adding the second's enhancement bonus to damage rolls. For all three, it's Two-Weapon Defense & Two-Weapon Fighting - +1 to Damage, AC and Ref for having the 2nd weapon in your offhand.

A Bard, technically, could do the same... But they're Leaders, not Strikers, so it doesn't suit them as well.

The problem here is that Strikers are more self and foe focused, so they're not gonna get ally-healing powers, and Leaders are not supposed to deal decent damage, as their focus is almost all on their allies.

true_shinken
2010-08-26, 10:33 PM
You get: Cha: it's your official secondary stat. Dex: you need it for AC, so you will keep it high. It's basically an unofficial secondary stat. Strikeriness: Barbs are nice strikers. Leaderiness: and you're part of their (reasonably good, and MCs warlord well) leader build. TWF: Poach from Whirling Barb powers!

It all fits!
I'd be better off with high Con and Hide Expertise, I believe, in a Barbarian build, but that's an idea.


Oddly enough, I'd go back to your old build, but change Tiefling to Gnome. Your Stealth won't be as good since you won't emphasize Dex, but Gnomes get enough Stealth support that you may still be able to sneak decently. As for Init, use the Orb that lets you add Int to Init, and be an Int-build. You'd lose out on the two-weapon fighting unless you did cheaty implement-switching stuff, but at least the option is there. Go crazy with bard multiclassing in order to make yourself strikerish.

I dislike small races, they seem pretty ridiculous to me. Gnomes specially.
Also, how would I use an orb as a bard?

tcrudisi
2010-08-26, 10:34 PM
I have a question: are you new to 4e? I ask because in 4e the Leader can be responsible for as much damage as the Striker. For example, in the game I ran yesterday, the Cleric used a power that gave vulnerability 10 to a monster. While it was technically the other players that did the 10 extra damage every attack, the Cleric was the one that put the vuln 10 onto it, so really he's the one that did the extra 40 damage that round. Not bad.

Bards also do the same thing. I remember a low-level encounter power that makes it so the players do an extra 5 fire damage every time they hit the monster. It's not as snazzy as getting to say the damage yourself, but really, you would be the one doing it.

I suggest the Bard again, but if you want to change to something else... I'm at a loss. I know you can spend 2 feats to get the Shaman's heal one time an encounter, but I think that requires Wis 13. So I suppose you could do one of the strikers mentioned (Assassin, Rogue, or Sorc) and do that Shaman MC.

Anyway, do any of those sound interesting?

true_shinken
2010-08-26, 10:39 PM
Bards also do the same thing. I remember a low-level encounter power that makes it so the players do an extra 5 fire damage every time they hit the monster. It's not as snazzy as getting to say the damage yourself, but really, you would be the one doing it.
Yeah, I know, it's just that bard's features don't even seem that leaderish to me. I play a Cunning Bard, and most of the time I just switch people around the battlefield a few squares and give small buffs.
I'm used to 3.5 Bards - they give HUGE damage buffs. What a 4e bard does feels weak in comparison.


I suggest the Bard again, but if you want to change to something else... I'm at a loss. I know you can spend 2 feats to get the Shaman's heal one time an encounter, but I think that requires Wis 13. So I suppose you could do one of the strikers mentioned (Assassin, Rogue, or Sorc) and do that Shaman MC.

Anyway, do any of those sound interesting?
Hm, I can get encounter healing from Shaman MC? This does look very interesting.

tcrudisi
2010-08-26, 11:21 PM
Yeah, I know, it's just that bard's features don't even seem that leaderish to me. I play a Cunning Bard, and most of the time I just switch people around the battlefield a few squares and give small buffs.
I'm used to 3.5 Bards - they give HUGE damage buffs. What a 4e bard does feels weak in comparison.


Hm, I can get encounter healing from Shaman MC? This does look very interesting.

0_o. Okay, first, the Shaman MC options: Spirit Talker (requires Wis 13) and gives the awesome spirit (hint: always have him out before combat starts) and give you a not-very-good daily to add +1 to a skill before you roll it. Meh. Then take Mending Spirit, which gives you the Shaman heal 1 time an encounter. Hey, you aren't a full healer (since they can do 2/enc), but it's something.

Second, I absolutely love the 4e Bard. They are the best Leader to have for skill challenges (social skills, beware!) bar none. They do very well in combat, as well. I love being able to slide allies around (and mobility is so huge in 4e, but if you aren't using a map and mini's, you lose a lot from this). They don't have Righteous Brand or the ability to give a free melee/ranged basic attack, but they do well enough. Misdirected Mark helps your tank keep things under control. Staggering Note allows you to attack and do some damage while letting an ally make a melee basic attack. Okay, I did not know about this power. That is... awesome. It might even beat the Warlords power. Hmm. War Song Strike lets you give out temp hps to allies, which is also very leadery.

But yeah, a lot of their powers feel like Controller powers to me (which is probably why I like the Bard so much). Focused Sound is an awesome encounter power which allows your allies to crit on an 18-20, which is amazing for a level 1 encounter power.

I'd list more powers, but I need to go do other things. If you did not enjoy the Bard because it wasn't "Leadery" enough, that's fine. I'm just wondering if you picked the "Leadery" powers. Regardless - give something else a shot and see if you enjoy another class. The 2x Shaman MC feats will allow you to heal 1/enc which is better than nothing (and others can take them too).

Anyway, good luck. If you decide you want to try a Rogue or Sorc, I can give some pointers there. I can't with the Assassin as I have not played one. It's considered a weak striker on the charop board, but man everyone seems to love playing it. /shrug

Mando Knight
2010-08-26, 11:22 PM
I'd be better off with high Con and Hide Expertise, I believe, in a Barbarian build, but that's an idea.

Not anymore. Hide Expertise has been made less ridiculous.

tcrudisi
2010-08-26, 11:33 PM
Not anymore. Hide Expertise has been made less ridiculous.

Actually, that does bring up a good point. You did ask for help with both the concept and the build, but we don't know if your group is using the errata or not which can definitely influence both. Obviously, if you guys are just using the books and no errata, Hide Armor Expertise is amazing. If you are using the errata... it's not so ridiculous.

ImperiousLeader
2010-08-26, 11:46 PM
Personally, I love my Bard, I've got a Valorous build that hands out Temp HP like candy and can enable my strikers to attack with good accuracy and damage.

If this were Dark Sun, this would be easy, as the Templar theme matched to a Rogue or Sorcerer would give you what you want. Or if you wanted to give up DEX and go INT instead, the Sorcerer King Pact Warlock offers some nifty Striker with a side of Leader options.

Sadly, I think you will need to prioritize, as your not going to get everything you want at third level.

- A Storm Sorcerer can multiclass Bard and specialize in thunder powers, there are a few nice Bard ones, and a Paragon Path to help in that pursuit. You're a striker with a daily heal.

- DEX isn't widely used by the leader classes. Still, you could use the Ardent, use the CON build (So CHA primary and then CON secondary), and give yourself decent DEX. If you pick powers that don't need your secondary stat as much you can get away with less impressive riders.

WinWin
2010-08-27, 12:17 AM
Drow or Halfling Chaos Sorcerer. Aquire stealth with a multiclass feat or something.

Dual wield daggers. Take the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat for use with a Basic Attack. (You should be able to gain AoO with Basic Attack powers in melee with this). Follow up with Dual Implement and Two Weapon Fighting feats.

You should be able to blast at range and also mix it up in melee.

tcrudisi
2010-08-27, 12:48 AM
Take the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat for use with a Basic Attack. (You should be able to gain AoO with Basic Attack powers in melee with this).

Just an fyi - Sorcerous Blade Channeling does not allow you to use a ranged basic attack as a melee basic attack. In other words, using Dragonfrost (a RBA) as an example: you can use Dragonfrost in melee without provoking an OA (or AoO depending on your abbreviation you want to use) yourself. However, when someone provokes from you, your Dragonfrost is still a RBA that can be used in melee, not an actual MBA - so you cannot use it to make the OA/AoO with. Instead, you will have to use either a power that says it can be used as a melee basic attack or just a standard attack with a dagger (1d4+str, ho!)

Ihouji
2010-08-27, 12:50 AM
My suggestion would be Pursuing Avenger multi class to bard and pump your cha.

I don't know if you have arcane power but if you do another option would be simply swapping from a melee bard to a ranged bard. It gives you more reason to pump Dex and will get you out of melee if that is what you are not enjoying.

-Sorcerer multi classed to bard has already been mentioned and it works well.
-Could try wizard multi classed to Artificer and use invisibility if you are high enough level.

Edit: You could also do artificer multi classed to wizard to pick up just invisibility

Kurald Galain
2010-08-27, 03:29 AM
Oh, here's another thought.

Be a rogue, get Hedge Wizard Gloves to give you telekinesis ability, and carry a bunch of potions. Use these for healing ability.

Other than that, you really need to prioritize. You can't have good stealth and good healing and good damage on a single character at this level. For instance, the ranger gets two out of three, and is more-or-less the only class that actually gets more attacks for dual wielding.


As for Init, use the Orb that lets you add Int to Init, and be an Int-build. You'd lose out on the two-weapon fighting unless you did cheaty implement-switching stuff, but at least the option is there.
Using an orb requires that you be a wizard or psion (or MC), neither of which is a striker or a leader. Also, this orb is unlikely to survive next month's errata.


Meelee Training (Dexterity). It uses you dex for you basic meelee attacks and damage. I'd expect most DMs to allow the principle to carry over to your powers, although I'm not sure that the rules as written support that.
No, RAW does not support that, and it would really surprise me if the DM would let you. You're not supposed to be able to ignore or dump your primary ability score.


0_o. Okay, first, the Shaman MC options: Spirit Talker (requires Wis 13) and gives the awesome spirit (hint: always have him out before combat starts)
Problem is, summoning the spirit is a standard action for a MC shaman. So be sure to check with your DM if he allows you to have the spirit out before combat, because by RAW you can't do that.

WinWin
2010-08-27, 04:32 AM
Just an fyi - Sorcerous Blade Channeling does not allow you to use a ranged basic attack as a melee basic attack. In other words, using Dragonfrost (a RBA) as an example: you can use Dragonfrost in melee without provoking an OA (or AoO depending on your abbreviation you want to use) yourself. However, when someone provokes from you, your Dragonfrost is still a RBA that can be used in melee, not an actual MBA - so you cannot use it to make the OA/AoO with. Instead, you will have to use either a power that says it can be used as a melee basic attack or just a standard attack with a dagger (1d4+str, ho!)

PHB lists Basic Attacks. Basic Attacks have different rules depending on whether they are used at ranged or in melee. A melee Basic Attack is a Basic Attack. A ranged Basic Attack is a Basic Attack. A ranged Basic Attack converted to a melee attack is a melee Basic Attack, not a ranged Basic Attack usable in melee (which would provoke an AoO, because all RBA's provoke).

This was cleared up by custserve and hashed out on Gleemax years ago, FYI.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-27, 04:40 AM
Why are you disappointed in your bard? Maybe the character can still be salvaged, without having to make a new one.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-27, 04:42 AM
This was cleared up by custserve and hashed out on Gleemax years ago, FYI.
Please give a link as to where this was cleared up and hashed out? Because I just did a search of the WOTC forums and the consensus there is the exact opposite of what you claim.

The rules don't specify that a power that is a "basic attack" and a "melee attack" is therefore a "melee basic" attack, so consensus is that Reaper's Touch does turn a power in to a MBA because it explicitly says so, and Sorcerous Blade Channeling does not.

WinWin
2010-08-27, 04:49 AM
Basic Attacks are described in the PHB.

The interpretation I have is from reading the discussion on the old Feycharger builds.

Not losing the ranged component on an RBA is counterintuitive and penalises the attacker. It becomes a melee attack. One which also happens to be a Basic Attack. Consequently it is a MBA. The SBC feat allows ranged attacks to be treated as melee. The description does not state it removes any features of the power being used, just that the power can be used in melee. A ranged power that is a Basic Attack is now a melee power that is a basic attack.

I do not see the issue.

edit:links added
Feycharger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648746/Arcane_Feycharger_(345dpr_all_day))
dragonfrost sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19646594/Cold_Sorcerer_DPR_(181.025_Single_Target,_At-Will_DPR))

I took a look at the AP errata. Stupid Custserv :smallmad:. Requires a Shadar Kai/reapers touch to work the way it is supposed to now.

Hal
2010-08-27, 06:06 AM
This build is sort of a long-term route to your goal, but it eventually works.

A Wis/Cha Cleric multiclassed Avenger. There's an Avenger paragon path that offers "sneak attack" damage, which seems like it might fit the bill for what you want.

I might have to come back to clarify on this, since I don't have access to my books or the character builder at the moment.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-27, 08:44 AM
I tend to take the viewpoint that the basic-attack status of ranged basics converted to melee attacks is a little unclear. In this situation, the only legitimate answer is to spell out the confusion to the DM and see what he thinks.

I tend to err on the side of generous on this issue, and luckily so does my DM.

true_shinken
2010-08-27, 09:52 AM
Why are you disappointed in your bard? Maybe the character can still be salvaged, without having to make a new one.

I simply didn't enjoy it. The support the bard gives is a lot more controllery than I'd have wanted (it specially hurts that I somehow always manage to miss with Blunder).

I think the Paladin idea has most of what I want, though dual-wielding would be shooting myself in the foot. I think I'll go for that, though needing both Wis and Cha irritates me. I heard the Raven Queen's divine feat was good for healing, or something like that.

A few people mentioned 'go ranged' but ranged Bard is Wis based, for starters, and I simply dislike shooting arrows from the back row.

Is there a multiclass feat that both grants Stealth as a class skill and boosts Initiative? That would almost solve my problems.

Master_Rahl22
2010-08-27, 10:11 AM
It sounds like you would be best off with a Paladin who MCs Rogue or something to get Stealth training, and then takes Improved Initiative/Quick Draw/Danger Sense for improving your Init. You'll do ok damage although you're actually a Defender, you'll get some healing, and the feats boost the init. You're really not going to have all 3 of the things you asked for so you're going to have to pick one or two to focus on and dabble in the others.

true_shinken
2010-08-27, 10:26 AM
It sounds like you would be best off with a Paladin who MCs Rogue or something to get Stealth training, and then takes Improved Initiative/Quick Draw/Danger Sense for improving your Init. You'll do ok damage although you're actually a Defender, you'll get some healing, and the feats boost the init. You're really not going to have all 3 of the things you asked for so you're going to have to pick one or two to focus on and dabble in the others.

Yeah, that's basically what I want. I know I can't have all of it, so I wanted to dabble in all of 'em, so to speak.

Grynning
2010-08-27, 10:38 AM
There's actually a PP, the Champion of Corellon, that gives some benefits for a dex-based paladin from Divine Power. It's actually quite good, IMO gives your Pally some extra mobility and damage. Obviously not much use at 3rd level but you could start building towards it. I strongly recommend Half-Elf as your race. Cha-based Pallies can dump Str, so the stats I would use would probably be something like Str 11, Con 13 (+2), Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16 (+2), level up points going to Cha and Wis.

Also as soon as you hit level 4 or 5 you can pick up some agile plate armor, which lets you add some of your dex to your AC.

You should definitely focus on a heavy blade weapon and pick up some of those feats.

true_shinken
2010-08-27, 10:49 AM
There's actually a PP, the Champion of Corellon, that gives some benefits for a dex-based paladin from Divine Power.
Oh, that is awesome! I seriously doubt the game I'm in will reach paragon, but it's very good to know nonetheless. Thanks.



It's actually quite good, IMO gives your Pally some extra mobility and damage.
Man, that's exactly what I want. Too bad it's a paragon path.



Obviously not much use at 3rd level but you could start building towards it. I strongly recommend Half-Elf as your race. Cha-based Pallies can dump Str, so the stats I would use would probably be something like Str 10, Con 13 (+2), Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16 (+2), level up points going to Cha and Wis.
I love half-elves and I really wanted to play one, but I was in doubt about how well it could work. Is that paladin at-will that works as a basic attack Cha-based? If it is, I believe I'm set on this build.
What do you suggest for my dilettante power? Eyebite could give me part of the stealth I crave for.
Also, what multiclass feat should I take to pick up Stealth from? I'll probably take Weapon Expertise or Improved Initiative as the second feat.


Also as soon as you hit level 4 or 5 you can pick up some agile plate armor, which lets you add some of your dex to your AC.
Oh, nice! Didn't know there was armor like that. Thanks a lot, I'll look into it.


You should definitely focus on a heavy blade weapon and pick up some of those feats.
Yeah, I realize dual wielding will be impossible. :/
But still, an agile greatsword wielding character looks very close to what I wanted.

Grynning
2010-08-27, 10:58 AM
I love half-elves and I really wanted to play one, but I was in doubt about how well it could work. Is that paladin at-will that works as a basic attack Cha-based? If it is, I believe I'm set on this build.
What do you suggest for my dilettante power? Eyebite could give me part of the stealth I crave for.
Also, what multiclass feat should I take to pick up Stealth from? I'll probably take Weapon Expertise or Improved Initiative as the second feat.


Dilettante gives you a LOT of options. I like the Ardent's at-wills a lot for a pally, even without being able to augment them they're quite good. Eyebite is great too, especially in combo with your Pally mark (they can't see you, take damage if they hit anyone else). Works better if you're not the only tanky person in the party, obviously.

Multiclassing to get stealth...Warrior of the Wild is never a bad choice (any skill off the Ranger list, also fits the Corellon theme). Acolyte of the Veil from Dragon 382 is a new Assassin MC that gets you stealth and an encounter teleport, which is awesome for tanking.

Here's a sample character I banged out using the character builder. Versatile Plate is there to make your stealth check worthwhile when you need it, and Vigilant Blade is pure win. Neck slot is just a random level 2, and Acrobat Boots are never a waste of your gold.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Half-Elf, Paladin

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 15, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16.


AC: 20 Fort: 15 Reflex: 15 Will: 17
HP: 42 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Insight +10, Endurance +6, Diplomacy +12, Stealth +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana, Bluff +5, Dungeoneering +3, Heal +3, History, Intimidate +5, Nature +3, Perception +3, Streetwise +5, Thievery +1, Athletics -1

FEATS
Level 1: Acolyte of the Veil
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)

POWERS
Dilettante: Psionic Shield
Lay on Hands: Lay on Hands
Paladin at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin daily 1: Glorious Charge
Paladin utility 2: Divine Counter
Paladin encounter 3: Invigorating Smite

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Versatile Plate Armor +1, Amulet of Resolution +1, Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Vigilant Blade Greatsword +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Edit: Added powers, messed with ability scores a little more.