Avatar: Relative Bending Prowess

[Xefas]

I wasn't entirely sure whether this would go in Media Discussions or Roleplaying Games, as it is intended to be a Discussion about Media, but is also slightly related to a Roleplaying Game.

Basically, I'm searching for input on the relative prowess of Benders (and possibly non-Benders) in the Avatar: The Last Airbender series.

For instance, is bending metal more difficult for an Earthbender than creating lightning is for a Firebender? Is Katara in the second season a better Waterbender than, say, Sokka is at being a swordsman in the third season? Is bending the water in vines more difficult than bending the water in someone's blood? Is Sokka a better swordsman than Zuko is a swordsman?

I'm mostly interested because I'm considering running an Avatar game using the Fate 2.0 system, which works on an 11-stage descriptive scale:
Legendary
Epic
Superb
Great
Good
Fair
Average
Mediocre
Poor
Terrible
Abysmal
The relative difficulty/skill is important to me because my intent is, for instance, for a Superb Earthbender to be just plain more useful than a Superb Swordsman, but it takes equal effort to attain both. A major theme will be what constitutes "fair", insofar as two people are born, they both have the same capabilities and potentials, but one can fly and shoot lightning out of his face, does the clearly superior one have the right to lord over the inferior one? Are they both even the same species anymore? If we found a group of animals in Madagascar that looked, in all ways like a duck, but it could swim through the earth and tear the metal off of a plane by looking at, would we classify it as a duck? Etc.

So, any advice/discussion about where certain feats of bending would fit on such a scale (or about the premise in general)?

[VanBuren]

Well, let's put it like this. Only one person has ever achieved Metalbending, we know of two people who can bloodbend and two who can use lightning.

Now, Metalbending was only possible because Toph was uniquely able to sense and bend the impurities in the metal. Bloodbending is possible if you know how, but only during a full moon. As for Lightning, it seems like you just need to detach yourself from your emotions.

So Metalbending > Blood > Lightning IMO.

[Xefas]

Well, let's put it like this. Only one person has ever achieved Metalbending, we know of two people who can bloodbend and two who can use lightning.

Ozai, Iroh, and Azula makes three. Plus it seems implied that Zuko had the power/competence to do so, but not the state of mind (not that this detracts from your point, just throwing that out there).


Now, Metalbending was only possible because Toph was uniquely able to sense and bend the impurities in the metal. Bloodbending is possible if you know how, but only during a full moon. As for Lightning, it seems like you just need to detach yourself from your emotions.

Sure, Toph developed some unique earthbending because she was blind, but it also seemed like she taught some of her super earth-sensing powers to Aang (illustrated by him going into the wooshy sonar art style right before finishing off Ozai). Maybe she could teach others how to metalbend? I imagine discovering how to do something new is harder than learning it from someone who already knows.

Also, about the bloodbending, I don't recall, but was there a full moon during the Southern Raiders episode? It's possible that Hama needed the full moon to bloodbend, but that Katara was skilled enough not to require it (or possibly only require that it be night-time)?

Not completely disagreeing, just adding some things to consider/for further discussion.

[Claudius Maximus]

I recall there being a full moon during the Southern Raiders episode. If memory serves it was visible in a short scene where they rode Appa, right before they found the Southern Raiders.

[VanBuren]

Ozai, Iroh, and Azula makes three. Plus it seems implied that Zuko had the power/competence to do so, but not the state of mind (not that this detracts from your point, just throwing that out there).

I kind of waffled back and forth about whether to mention Zuko, but you're right about Ozai.


Sure, Toph developed some unique earthbending because she was blind, but it also seemed like she taught some of her super earth-sensing powers to Aang (illustrated by him going into the wooshy sonar art style right before finishing off Ozai). Maybe she could teach others how to metalbend? I imagine discovering how to do something new is harder than learning it from someone who already knows.

True, but I understood part of the issue to be that it was due to her blindness that she could even sense those impurities.


Also, about the bloodbending, I don't recall, but was there a full moon during the Southern Raiders episode? It's possible that Hama needed the full moon to bloodbend, but that Katara was skilled enough not to require it (or possibly only require that it be night-time)?

Not completely disagreeing, just adding some things to consider/for further discussion.

There was earlier in the episode, but it's true that it wasn't totally clear whether that was on the same day or not.

[Joran]

relative difficulty/skill

The way I always thought about difficulty in bending is divided into two parts:

1) Brute force needed
2) Finesse needed

For instance, we see three different "special" techniques: bloodbending, metalbending, and lightning, but we never see Aang as the Avatar do any of these techniques.

So, Aang or Kyoshi, in the Avatar state, can do things no normal powered bender can do: summon up a tsunami, cause a fissure deep enough to separate an island, etc. However, since they aren't experts in each bending, maybe they can't do some of the more delicate things like controlling someone's body.

[Yulian]

For instance, is bending metal more difficult for an Earthbender than creating lightning is for a Firebender? Is Katara in the second season a better Waterbender than, say, Sokka is at being a swordsman in the third season? Is bending the water in vines more difficult than bending the water in someone's blood? Is Sokka a better swordsman than Zuko is a swordsman?


Well, we have actual answers to all those questions.

One person, ever, invented metalbending. Even King Bumi, with his staggering level of power and sideways thinking, never came up with it. I'd say that's flat-out the hardest feat we've seen depicted.

We've seen multiple individuals use lightning, and it was shown to be standardized, as Azula practiced it on the ship, and Iroh knew enough about it to invent a way to redirect it. Obviously difficult, but not unique.

The water issue is obviously easier still. Note that Hama pulled the water from living plants and could bend the water in people's blood and teach it to Katara. Combine those two techniques and you have what Huu does.

So it scales as follows: metalbending > lightning > plant control.

Oh, side note, I would guess one needs plants with a lot of water in them, and less cellulose in their cell structure so they are flexible enough to move. So swamp vines and seaweed will work, trees and reeds will not.

Zuko is obviously a better swordsman than Sokka. Zuko had more time and more training at it. During their fight in "City of Walls and Secrets" the Avatar Extras stated outright that Zuko and Jet were equal in skill. Zuko also performed tricks and feats we had never seen Sokka do, like Zuko flipping and stacking bowls with his swords.

I would also have to say that Katara is a better waterbender than Sokka is a swordsman. Again, she had more time to work with it and was trained by a master for a longer period than Sokka was trained by one. Katara also specialized a bit more. Sokka also spent his time designing things (like the submarines) and making plans, and while Katara had Aang to practice with, Sokka had no sparring partner.

Back to metalbending. I would posit that Toph's blindness is not necessary for metalbending, but that her lack of sight caused her to approach the discipline from a completely different angle than any previous earthbenders had.

In the real world, humans can use their sense of hearing to "range" solid objects. It's not amazingly precise, but with your eyes closed, listen to the difference in ambient noises (or even noises you make) when you stand in the center of a room versus standing with your face almost touching a wall. The difference is there, but sighted people never bother (or need to bother) with learning this to any great degree.

This kid did: http://www.slate.com/id/2154696 because he has no eyes. I would imagine metalbending is the same, a skill that seems unique simply because sighted earthbenders never bothered to develop their "tremorsense" to the degree that Toph had to just to be able to function.

- Yulian

[Xefas]

I recall there being a full moon during the Southern Raiders episode. If memory serves it was visible in a short scene where they rode Appa, right before they found the Southern Raiders.

There was earlier in the episode, but it's true that it wasn't totally clear whether that was on the same day or not.

Ah, okay. Thanks :smallsmile:


However, since they aren't experts in each bending, maybe they can't do some of the more delicate things like controlling someone's body.

I always had the vague idea that Avatars probably didn't invent something like Metalbending or Bloodbending, just because they never had to. Both were adaptations born of necessity. Toph figured out how to bend Metal when she was in a situation with no Earth, and Hama figured out Bloodbending when she was in a situation with no "Water" in the normal sense.

If an Avatar is ever without Earth, or without Water, they just use the other three elements to trivially spank whatever army happens to have cornered them in that position. They're never in a position where they have to adapt away from the norm, because the norm for them is already world-shattering.

Lightning, well, there isn't a whole lot you can do with Lightning other than murder people very swiftly and efficiently with it, and Avatars strike me as folk who attempt to avoid that sort of thing as much as possible. So, if they did learn it, they wouldn't use it often enough for it to have shown up in the show.


Helpful stuff
Thank you immensely for the insight. Exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Further questions, though.

Huu's ability to bend plants seems to be something unique to him. We never see anyone else who can do it, really, so would you put it on par with Bloodbending in difficulty? Or is there some overlap? Like, if you can Bloodbend, it follows you could pick up Plantbending pretty easily and vice versa? (EDIT: Or are they essentially the same thing? That might make Huu a bit more...interesting.)

Also, its nice to hear someone else think of Bumi with the respect he deserves. "Earthbending Via The Face", as hard as Metalbending?

Similarly: Sandbending; special discipline, or so routine it doesn't deserve its own distinct name? Thoughts?

[Zevox]

For instance, is bending metal more difficult for an Earthbender than creating lightning is for a Firebender?
Impossible to say. Yes, metalbending was thought impossible until Toph discovered it, but once she figured out how to do it, it came quite easily to her, and the basic concept seems simple enough. Use tremorsense to detect impurities in the metal, then bend those, bringing the metal with them. Anyone with sufficiently advanced mastery of the tremorsense ability should be able to learn it.

We also know how lightningbending works - manipulating the energy in the air around you, separating positive from negative, then letting them come crashing back together and guiding the lightning they release out your fingertips. Trouble is, we have no standard for comparing how difficult that is for a firebender to how difficult it is for an earthbender to bend metal. Like Toph metalbending it also seemed quite easy to accomplish once learned, as none of those who used it seemed to have any difficulty doing so. Azula was even drilling it during the first episode of season 2, implying she can do it multiple times in a row without a problem, and she was probably the least powerful of the three we know could use it.


Is Katara in the second season a better Waterbender than, say, Sokka is at being a swordsman in the third season?
My random guess would be yes, but how the heck do you imagine anyone could compare two completely different fighting styles to determine that accurately? Especially when bending is already pretty much inherently more powerful than swordsmanship.


Is bending the water in vines more difficult than bending the water in someone's blood?
Almost certainly not, given bloodbending requires a full moon, but bending the water in vines did not - in fact, that swampbender was doing it quite easily during the day, both in the original episode and in the Day of Black Sun, and waterbending is at its weakest during the day.


Is Sokka a better swordsman than Zuko is a swordsman?
Probably Zuko, for the reasons Yulian listed.



The way I always thought about difficulty in bending is divided into two parts:

1) Brute force needed
2) Finesse needed

For instance, we see three different "special" techniques: bloodbending, metalbending, and lightning, but we never see Aang as the Avatar do any of these techniques.

So, Aang or Kyoshi, in the Avatar state, can do things no normal powered bender can do: summon up a tsunami, cause a fissure deep enough to separate an island, etc. However, since they aren't experts in each bending, maybe they can't do some of the more delicate things like controlling someone's body.
That doesn't make sense. The Avatar masters all four elements over the course of his life - there's no reason that he couldn't learn techniques like lightningbending, metalbending, or bloodbending. There is a reason why no avatar would have metalbending or bloodbending - they were invented by Toph and Hama respectively (probably - I don't think we ever learned for sure if Hama was the first to discover bloodbending, but it seemed implied), so no one would have known how to use them before then.

And it is quite possible that past Avatars did know how to use lightning, but Aang simply never used it while in the Avatar State. There was certainly no reason given why no Avatar could have known how to use lightning, nor any implication that none did. Just not using it while in the Avatar State doesn't mean anything - there's quite a lot of things he never did while in the Avatar State, simply because he rarely entered it and didn't need to stay in it long when he did.


Huu's ability to bend plants seems to be something unique to him. We never see anyone else who can do it, really, so would you put it on par with Bloodbending in difficulty?
That seems an utterly ridiculous assumption. Nobody else does it because nobody else has both the opportunity and a reason to. How often exactly were any waterbenders in the show around a bunch of vines or other plants they could potentially bend in a useful manner? Not often, and even when they were, the more direct approach they're accustomed to worked just fine. Heck, Katara beat Huu's plant-bending with that more direct approach when they fought in the swamp.

Besides, if Hama's comment when Katara mentioned that technique is any indication, even pulling water out of plants is more advanced than manipulating the plants, much less bloodbending.


Similarly: Sandbending; special discipline, or so routine it doesn't deserve its own distinct name? Thoughts?
Probably just a slightly different variety of earthbending. Toph was unfamiliar with it because she had never been around sand much before going to the desert, but it seems a fairly routine part of the discipline. Bumi was able to convert the ground Aang was running on into sand way back during their battle, Haru reduced a couple of rocks to sand in his season 1 episode, earthbenders who live in the desert learn to bend sand with no problem, etc. Toph even taught herself to do it just while they were staying at Zuko's beach house.

Zevox

[Holocron Coder]

These are just my opinions, but...

BENDERS
Legendary - Fully Realized Avatar
Epic - Avatar, Iroh, Ozai
Superb - Toph, Bumi, Katara, Pakku, Jeong Jeong, Azula, Zuko
Great - Dai Li, Crazy Azula
Good - Hama, Huu
Fair - General Soldiers
Average - Untrained Benders
Mediocre -

Logic: A fully realized avatar is top, period. An avatar not yet reaching the top is right below. Iroh and Ozai are the most powerful seen outside of the Avatar. I'd place them at equal on such a scale, as Iroh admitted he "might not win" against Ozai, but that still implies a chance of victory, and everyone seems to think he has a good change. Most every named character is just below them in terms of bending, though its arguably in two tiers. Dai Li are awesome and stronger than Hama and Huu, IMO. Below them are regular soldiers, untrained benders, and blank below that. You could possibly split the Superb rating into two groups and move one group (and all the rankings below Superb) down a rank, placing Untrained Benders at Mediocre (+0)

SWORDSMEN/ETC
Legendary -
Epic - Piandao
Superb - Mai, Ty Lee
Great - Zuko, Jet
Good - Sokka
Fair -
Average -
Mediocre -

Logic: Fairly simple. Piandao is world-renowned. Zuko and Jet fall a bit below him, and Sokka just below them. Mai and Ty Lee are crazy-good at what they do, and I can imagine them taking out Zuko and Jet most of the time, but falling to Piandao most times.

[BladeofOblivion]

These are just my opinions, but...

BENDERS
Legendary - Fully Realized Avatar
Epic - Avatar, Iroh, Ozai
Superb - Toph, Bumi, Katara, Pakku, Jeong Jeong, Azula, Zuko
Great - Dai Li, Crazy Azula
Good - Hama, Huu
Fair - General Soldiers
Average - Untrained Benders
Mediocre -

Logic: A fully realized avatar is top, period. An avatar not yet reaching the top is right below. Iroh and Ozai are the most powerful seen outside of the Avatar. I'd place them at equal on such a scale, as Iroh admitted he "might not win" against Ozai, but that still implies a chance of victory, and everyone seems to think he has a good change. Most every named character is just below them in terms of bending, though its arguably in two tiers. Dai Li are awesome and stronger than Hama and Huu, IMO. Below them are regular soldiers, untrained benders, and blank below that. You could possibly split the Superb rating into two groups and move one group (and all the rankings below Superb) down a rank, placing Untrained Benders at Mediocre (+0)

I'm going to call foul on Azula's placement. Even after she went insane, she was almost exactly on Par with Zuko. If you look carefully at their final duel in the penultimate episode, their attacks were symmetrical. Azula in her calmer state is possibly even in the epic tier, considering that, at one point in season two, the first time we saw Azula in combat, she was able to hold a relatively even footing with Aang, Katara, Sokka, Toph, Zuko, and Iroh ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Granted, she fled that battle for obvious reasons, but in the first part of it against both Zuko and Aang, she was pretty clearly winning.

[SmartAlec]

I'm going to call foul on Azula's placement. Even after she went insane, she was almost exactly on Par with Zuko. If you look carefully at their final duel in the penultimate episode, their attacks were symmetrical

It's an interesting point - does this seperate state of mind from skill? It's Zuko's state of mind that holds him back in the early series, and Azula is the one with near-perfect self-control, but in that final battle this is reversed, and that's why Zuko was winning.

[Force]

On special techniques-- it's important to note the cultures of the benders in question. The Earthbenders, for example, are very conservative-- to most of them, you can't bend metal and that is that. The Waterbenders are rarely in places where they would have to draw on plants for water. Considering how Katara reacted to bloodbending, I doubt most Waterbenders would even think about such a technique.

It's worth noting that both of the above techniques, however, are masteries created by a single powerful bender in their hour of greatest need, when they had no choice but to push beyond what they considered "normal" in order to survive. Lightning, on the other hand, appears to be a fairly common technique among the high-level Firebenders. This can probably be explained by the Firebender's emphasis on sheer destructive power-- after all, a bending SoD does seem like a Firebender tactic, doesn't it?

In summary, I don't think we can conclude that mastery of Metalbending or blood/plantbending can be used to indicate power level in the Avatarverse. Our sample size is far too small. Lightning, however, is used by three of the most powerful Firebenders we are shown. It's a good indicator that a Firebender is up there on the rank scales.

As a side note, I think Azula should hit epic levels. She is the only character shown to use blue flames instead of the cooler red flames used by other characters. Even Ozai during the Comet did not show such power.

[thorgrim29]

Pretty sure Bumi is right up there with Iroh and Ozai. The man is just too awesome.

[Zevox]

I'm going to call foul on Azula's placement. Even after she went insane, she was almost exactly on Par with Zuko. If you look carefully at their final duel in the penultimate episode, their attacks were symmetrical.
Not to mention the simple fact that she did beat him in that battle, in spite of her mental breakdown. It was Katara, not Zuko, who finally took Azula down. The series is pretty clear about the fact that Azula was Zuko's superior as a firebender, from start to finish.

Zevox

[Douglas]

I don't think Azula winning that final fight is really valid evidence of her being the better bender at that point. She didn't beat Zuko through superior bending, she beat him by unexpectedly attacking a bystander he cared about, violating the one-on-one formal structure of an Agni Kai and forcing him to act as a human shield.

But yes, up until that episode she was better than Zuko rather than just on par.

[memnarch]

Pretty sure Bumi is right up there with Iroh and Ozai. The man is just too awesome.

Heck yeah; the guy can earthbend with his face!

[Hopeless]

Well, let's put it like this. Only one person has ever achieved Metalbending, we know of two people who can bloodbend and two who can use lightning.

Now, Metalbending was only possible because Toph was uniquely able to sense and bend the impurities in the metal. Bloodbending is possible if you know how, but only during a full moon. As for Lightning, it seems like you just need to detach yourself from your emotions.

So Metalbending > Blood > Lightning IMO.

Three, Azula, her father and her uncle hope that doesn't spoil anything.

Oh well got beaten to the punch!

[BladeofOblivion]

It's an interesting point - does this seperate state of mind from skill? It's Zuko's state of mind that holds him back in the early series, and Azula is the one with near-perfect self-control, but in that final battle this is reversed, and that's why Zuko was winning.

Zuko wasn't winning. It was, in fact, a stalemate until Azula cheated by targeting Katara.


As a side note, I think Azula should hit epic levels. She is the only character shown to use blue flames instead of the cooler red flames used by other characters. Even Ozai during the Comet did not show such power.

Upon closer inspection, in fact, her flames turn red as they cool down, meaning that the Blue flame really is hotter and not just different. I forgot to note this. Thank you.


I don't think Azula winning that final fight is really valid evidence of her being the better bender at that point. She didn't beat Zuko through superior bending, she beat him by unexpectedly attacking a bystander he cared about, violating the one-on-one formal structure of an Agni Kai and forcing him to act as a human shield.

But yes, up until that episode she was better than Zuko rather than just on par.

It is worth knowing that her Insanity caused a significant drop in both her skill and her cunning. She was using much larger and more wasteful amounts of fire than ever before, as opposed to the Destructive, highly Efficient blasts she used for most of the series. For comparison to this duel, see the last time Zuko and Azula fought while Azula was still sane. This was the Gondola fight in "The Boiling Rock: Part 2." Azula demonstrated some abilities that would have been very difficult to pull off for any other Firebender, most notably using fire blasts to provide PROPULSION. With Accuracy. On top of that, Zuko and Sokka WORKING TOGETHER couldn't really top her sheer skill, though Sokka did manage to get a strike very close to her head.

[SmartAlec]

Zuko wasn't winning. It was, in fact, a stalemate until Azula cheated by targeting Katara.

I wouldn't call it a stalemate. You asked me to watch it closely, and I did - whereas Azula is throwing everything she's got at Zuko, he's barely breaking a sweat, just going through the motions, blocking everything she throws with bursts of fire that dissipate hers, waiting for his moment to strike. And when it comes, he knocks her down.

Even Azula thought she was going to lose. That's clear on her face. Hence, her attempt to cheat.

[BladeofOblivion]

I wouldn't call it a stalemate. You asked me to watch it closely, and I did - whereas Azula is throwing everything she's got at Zuko, he's barely breaking a sweat, just going through the motions, blocking everything she throws with bursts of fire that dissipate hers, waiting for his moment to strike. And when it comes, he knocks her down.

Even Azula thought she was going to lose. That's clear on her face. Hence, her attempt to cheat.

Hmm. Must have missed that. I'll check again. But still, you must see my point. Up until that very point, Azula was, to put it in TVtropes style, a Hopeless Boss Fight.

[Xondoure]

Hmm. Must have missed that. I'll check again. But still, you must see my point. Up until that very point, Azula was, to put it in TVtropes style, a Hopeless Boss Fight.

Which is a big part of Zukos development. At the very end of the series, I'd say both Katara and Zuko have surpassed Azula. Whether that puts them up a category, or throws her down due to her "madness" is up for debate.

[Douglas]

Hmm. Must have missed that. I'll check again. But still, you must see my point. Up until that very point, Azula was, to put it in TVtropes style, a Hopeless Boss Fight.
Pre-Comet, Azula was indeed a Hopeless Boss Fight for any single good guy except Aang in the Avatar State. In the Comet-powered Agni Kai, though, Zuko was calmly and confidently taunting Azula while she was just snarling in frustration. She went for zapping Katara out of desperation because she had realized she couldn't win by playing fair.

[BladeofOblivion]

except Aang in the Avatar State.

To be fair, not even that. If you remember the Season 2 Finale...

Transformation is NOT a Free Action anymore.

[lord_khaine]

Gotta say i loved that part, just for it being so unheard off.

[The Rose Dragon]

To be fair, not even that. If you remember the Season 2 Finale...

Transformation is NOT a Free Action anymore.

At that point, Aang wasn't in the Avatar state, so it doesn't really count.

[Samurai Jill]

So, any advice/discussion about where certain feats of bending would fit on such a scale (or about the premise in general)?
Although there are probably significant differences in ability, one of the things I've noticed in the show is that everyone 'on the team' tends to put in an equal contribution to scene outcomes even if they're not equally powerful. e.g, Katara and Aang clearly have more raw ability in physical terms, but Sokka will swoop in with his boomerang at a critical moment, and save the day- even when the timing is highly unlikely.

The thing you have to bear in mind here is that 'story logic' is very different from intuitive in-world logic. Just modelling base skill levels probably won't reproduce it. You might want to consider including something like a "Luck" resource that can be earned through role-play and character development, which I would consider to be just as important a feature of the show to emulate.

A major theme will be what constitutes "fair", insofar as two people are born, they both have the same capabilities and potentials, but one can fly and shoot lightning out of his face, does the clearly superior one have the right to lord over the inferior one?
I think this is the same question as whether being Crazy Prepared counts as a superpower- e.g, Batman's level of intelligence and resources is about as rare as a specific allergy to kryptonite, and functionally just as significant.

Sure- all else equal a Bender is more powerful than a non-Bender, but all else ain't equal- Benders are fairly rare, so that statistically there are comparable numbers of highly proficient swordsmen in the population that could hold their own against them. (As Katara finds out when going up against Azula's team.) In other words, talent is a form of power, Bending just represents a different form of natural talent, and talent has never been equally distributed.

So... if you are using some kind of point-buy system intended to ration out character skills and resources in a way that's 'fair', you could be excused for making Bending ability more powerful, but more expensive, than equivalent proficiency in non-bending skills.

Alternatively, you might consider splitting up 'Bending' into several different disciplines that have to mastered separately in order to realise Bending's full potential: i.e, emotional control, physical coordination and formal education, in addition to raw natural ability. (Of course, this implies that swordsmanship does not require equal effort to master, but I think that's not inconsistent with what you see on the show.)

[AtlanteanTroll]

Ozai, Iroh, and Azula makes three. Plus it seems implied that Zuko had the power/competence to do so, but not the state of mind (not that this detracts from your point, just throwing that out there).

5. Don't forget the grannies that taught Azula. Though we never see her do it, how could they teach her if they didn't know?

[Lord Iames Osari]

5. Don't forget the grannies that taught Azula. Though we never see her do it, how could they teach her if they didn't know?

They were politcal advisors, I felt like. We know they aren't firebenders, as they reveal the fact when Azula tries to order them to fight an Agni Kai.

[AtlanteanTroll]

They were politcal advisors, I felt like. We know they aren't firebenders, as they reveal the fact when Azula tries to order them to fight an Agni Kai.

:smallconfused:

Weird. Wonder what they were teaching her for then.

[Force]

:smallconfused:

Weird. Wonder what they were teaching her for then.

Even if you aren't a firebender, you can probably still study the martial arts movements and forms. You wouldn't be the best of teachers, but you could give a firebender tips on following a strict form.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Even if you aren't a firebender, you can probably still study the martial arts movements and forms. You wouldn't be the best of teachers, but you could give a firebender tips on following a strict form.

Normal Firebending, maybe. Lightning? No.

[BladeofOblivion]

At that point, Aang wasn't in the Avatar state, so it doesn't really count.

He was in the Avatar state, actually. He just hadn't opened a can of Whoop*** on everyone there yet. It also blocked his Chi, preventing him from re-entering the state until his battle with Ozai unblocked it.

[Samurai Jill]

Even if you aren't a firebender, you can probably still study the martial arts movements and forms. You wouldn't be the best of teachers, but you could give a firebender tips on following a strict form.
This is partly why I reckon splitting up bending into several different disciplines could be useful here.

I reckon one of the things that made Bending particularly interesting in the show- from the perspective of drama and character development- was that to fully master the art you had to (A) resolve any underlying emotional problems that were 'blocking' your development, and (B) seek out experienced teachers who could give you a formal education, along with all the attendant emotional baggage that they entail. (e.g, Zuko and uncle Ihro, or Aang and his relations with Toph/Bumi/Jeong Jeong/Zuko again, or Katara and Pakku.)

This is all the more interesting because the basic techniques of each bending discipline seem to benefit from certain strong emotions- anger for Firebending, stubbornness for Earthbending, spontaneity or freedom for Airbending, and empathy(?) for Waterbending. So that there's actually a tradeoff between what will make you a powerful Bender initially and what will make you a powerful Bender in the long run- the most potent techniques demand a capacity for emotional detachment that strong passions can hinder.

And, as you suggest, there are cases where a teacher has instructed the student on the correct form for a given technique, without actual Bending taking place (e.g, when Ihro instructs Zuko on the defensive lightning technique.) It's possible you could get some kind of synergy with conventional swordsmanship here.

[Samurai Jill]

...It's possible you could get some kind of synergy with conventional swordsmanship here.
Not restricted to just swordsmanship, of course. Remember that earth-kingdom guardsman in 'Zuko Alone'? Combined twin hammers with earthbending rock-punches quite effectively For that matter, there's no reason why you couldn't combine regular kicks and punches in the same way, if you had an 'unarmed combat' skill.

What other weapons/styles might synergise with the various forms of bending? Whips for water? Fans for air? Though I seem to remember Avatar Kyoshi favoured fans, and wasn't she a native earthbender?

Also, each of the bending styles in based on a specific real-world martial art, so maybe those would be suggestive?

[Marillion]

These are just my opinions, but...

BENDERS
Legendary - Fully Realized Avatar
Epic - Avatar, Iroh, Ozai
Superb - Toph, Bumi, Katara, Pakku, Jeong Jeong, Azula, Zuko
Great - Dai Li, Crazy Azula
Good - Hama, Huu
Fair - General Soldiers
Average - Untrained Benders
Mediocre -

No love for Sparky Sparky Boom Man?:smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

I thought Combustion Man wasn't actually a bender...just this weird one-off villain who never showed up again, though still had a robot leg and a laser beam cannon on his forehead.

[Marillion]

Nah, SSBM is a very powerful (if extremely specialized) Firebender. Wiki says (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Combustion_Man):

Combustion Man's abilities reflect his namesake, and he is able to trigger explosive detonations through his unique style of firebending. Surprisingly, combustion is the only Firebending technique he appears to know. According to creator commentary on "The Western Air Temple", his unique abilities are due to an extremely overdeveloped third eye. He channels chi energy from his stomach, and then focuses and fires it from his third eye, through a tattoo on his forehead. This energy created thin transparent energy bolts that crack like firecrackers as they travel and then explode violently on impact with a surface. This ability is mentally driven, requiring only inhalation and focus on his part (making his fighting style much less dynamic than standard firebending) and can be used at great ranges with considerable accuracy. A single energy bolt is very powerful and can disintegrate large boulders or evaporate entire bodies of water with ease. The true degree of his power and skill is considerable, and in almost all encounters he overpowered everything Aang's group attacked him with.
Wiki also says that he lost his arm and leg in a childhood accident experimenting with his powers.

[The Rose Dragon]

Fans for air?

Airbenders already have their staffs, though.

[endoperez]

Not restricted to just swordsmanship, of course. Remember that earth-kingdom guardsman in 'Zuko Alone'? Combined twin hammers with earthbending rock-punches quite effectively For that matter, there's no reason why you couldn't combine regular kicks and punches in the same way, if you had an 'unarmed combat' skill.

What other weapons/styles might synergise with the various forms of bending? Whips for water? Fans for air? Though I seem to remember Avatar Kyoshi favoured fans, and wasn't she a native earthbender?

Also, each of the bending styles in based on a specific real-world martial art, so maybe those would be suggestive?

There are important design questions to consider, before changing if weapon skills should work together with bending skill. I don't think they should, since the OP wants to contrast benders AGAINST martial artists. The weapons only ever enter the picture if he wants to explore the bender having to choose between his bending and his weapon of choice. In the show proper, Zuko chose bending, but it would be interesting to see the other choice being available. Imagine Sokka's Master as a firebender who never got beyond blasting a single fireblast every now and then, a few tricks here and there - tricks that he hasn't had to use since he mastered the sword... Any way, that's a specific case, and he probably doesn't need any of the stuff listed below.



The styles used in the show are all Chinese, so they share most of the weapons: staff, straight sword, saber, halberd, spear, etc. However, since they are Chinese styles, that still leaves several weapons not found in the other three. Hung Gar, on which earthbending is based, has a weaponized bench (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rl3o4hqT9w).
Also, it's good to remember that there are probably about half a dozen major schools in each of the martial arts mentioned here, based on the teachings of different teachers who (usually) taught slightly different sets of weapons.

I don't think earthbending works well with most weapons. It has to look like the bender is moving more weight than just that of his weapons, so whatever he uses has to have some mass to it for it to look good. Halberds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdkL2_FM9rA) or tiger forks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KXVAMx35vU) would be good, and this CKTC mantis-style big axe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kiZxevIYec), and then there's the double hammers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apkkrucLjaA) and the similar double axes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBy_nLNdSZI).

Airbending is based on bagua, which has all kinds of weapons like deer horn knives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz6Oe6a8TO8), which would be awesome if airbenders weren't all pacifists. It would have been awesome to see monk Gyatso owning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqqiarL9xI) some comet-empowered firebenders. Hook swords (think Jet) are also taught in bagua.
Iron fans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzQaXWjZ2iw) can parry and trap a sword, can be used as a club, is useful as a lever and for pushing into soft tissue. There's more (http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/weapon.htm), like twin daggers, double-tipped spears and meteor hammers (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLoE6zTZyyU), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hOL8juiy1w)), three-section staff (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEkG1R6ZO6o)), etc.

Water itself is the weapon used by a waterbender, so weapons would be mostly unnecessary. The only variation is on how the water is used - water whip, a circle floating around the user, tentacles, ice shards... Of course, some of the ways the water is used is from how how weapons are used. Katara drawing the water from the waterskin in her belt, slashing, and "sheathing" the water again in a single continuous movement - that's basically Japanese iaido.

Firebending with the sabers only works because the weapons themselves are made of metal. I just found out that Northern Shaolin has a twin daggers style, BTW - that explains the fire-daggers Zuko made when he first fought Azula. The straight sword (the one Sokka learns to use) could also be used, every thrust accompanied by a flame. Anything with a wooden shaft would be destroyed if it was used together with firebending the conventional style, and that leaves out most weapons.
If the firebenders controlled an existing fire instead of creating new flames to attack with, movie-style, there are many more options. They wouldn't have to lose their ability to create flames, but since fires are usually blasted from the palm... There's a lot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD_nHqWAUvc) of stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JjprYD2Yhw) they could (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoV8r9P1848) use, if you go this way. Pretty much everything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qms8URX_e0g), really.

[Anteros]

Not to mention the simple fact that she did beat him in that battle, in spite of her mental breakdown. It was Katara, not Zuko, who finally took Azula down. The series is pretty clear about the fact that Azula was Zuko's superior as a firebender, from start to finish.

Zevox

She was losing until she broke the rules and attacked a non-participant, causing Zuko to sacrifice himself. Not really a good indicator of her prowess as a bender.


Zuko wasn't winning. It was, in fact, a stalemate until Azula cheated by targeting Katara.



She was clearly breaking down more and more mentally as things progressed. Zuko was even taunting her. I have a hard time believing she would have beaten him.


Upon closer inspection, in fact, her flames turn red as they cool down, meaning that the Blue flame really is hotter and not just different. I forgot to note this. Thank you.



It is worth knowing that her Insanity caused a significant drop in both her skill and her cunning. She was using much larger and more wasteful amounts of fire than ever before, as opposed to the Destructive, highly Efficient blasts she used for most of the series. For comparison to this duel, see the last time Zuko and Azula fought while Azula was still sane. This was the Gondola fight in "The Boiling Rock: Part 2." Azula demonstrated some abilities that would have been very difficult to pull off for any other Firebender, most notably using fire blasts to provide PROPULSION. With Accuracy. On top of that, Zuko and Sokka WORKING TOGETHER couldn't really top her sheer skill, though Sokka did manage to get a strike very close to her head.

I think having to protect Sokka probably held Zuko back there more than anything

[Zevox]

She was losing until she broke the rules and attacked a non-participant, causing Zuko to sacrifice himself. Not really a good indicator of her prowess as a bender.
To the contrary, neither of them was really winning until that point, and her actions there show that her cunning, a major contributor to her skill, was still intact in spite of her breakdown. Contrast to Zuko, who was still as stupid as ever, openly telling Azula he could redirect her lightning if she shot it at him.

Yes, she broke the rules, but do you honestly think she cared about the rules? Her focus was winning, pure and simple. She was never the type to put anything before success - remember the ending to "The Chase?" "A Princess surrenders with honor..." followed by a fire blast at the first sign of one of her foes being distracted. This is why she's so dangerous. She's very quick, very cunning, and seizes every advantage she can to win, rules and honor be damned.

Heck, she was ultimately defeated because Katara outwitted her, finding a method to attack and restrain her that she could not anticipate, not because her foes defeated her in some stand-up fight.

Zevox

[SmartAlec]

To the contrary, neither of them was really winning until that point

Zuko is untouched the whole fight, up until the lightning. But he gets past Azula's guard twice; the first she narrowly dodges (and the surprise at how close it was is on her face), the second she is sent tumbling. The taunt comes after he's effectively demonstrated he can brush off anything his sister throws and hit back faster, so that's not a bad time for a taunt, all things considered.

[Samurai Jill]

I don't think earthbending works well with most weapons. It has to look like the bender is moving more weight than just that of his weapons, so whatever he uses has to have some mass to it for it to look good.
I agree. I'd add, furthermore, that edged weapons might not suit it either (they'd go blunt, wouldn't they, unless you used them like spatulas?) However, I think that earthbending would synergise well with bare fists and kicks, so that it fits well with training in unarmed combat.

Airbending is based on bagua, which has all kinds of weapons like deer horn knives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz6Oe6a8TO8), which would be awesome if airbenders weren't all pacifists.
Ah. Okay then. It's struck me that Airbending is probably the hardest to defend against using weapons in any case, since it can't be blocked or parried in the way that jets of flame, water, or stone projectiles can. Well, there's always those staves, in any case, which I guess fits since they're supposedly primarily 'defensive' weapons.

Water itself is the weapon used by a waterbender, so weapons would be mostly unnecessary. The only variation is on how the water is used - water whip, a circle floating around the user, tentacles, ice shards... Of course, some of the ways the water is used is from how how weapons are used. Katara drawing the water from the waterskin in her belt, slashing, and "sheathing" the water again in a single continuous movement - that's basically Japanese iaido.
Well, strictly speaking "X is the weapon used by an X-bender" applies to all four elements, at least in principle. But I guess I can take your point about specific techniques being similar to proficiency with particular weapons, so that's useful.

Firebending with the sabers only works because the weapons themselves are made of metal. I just found out that Northern Shaolin has a twin daggers style, BTW - that explains the fire-daggers Zuko made when he first fought Azula. The straight sword (the one Sokka learns to use) could also be used, every thrust accompanied by a flame. Anything with a wooden shaft would be destroyed if it was used together with firebending the conventional style, and that leaves out most weapons.
If the firebenders controlled an existing fire instead of creating new flames to attack with, movie-style, there are many more options.
I'm open to the idea that Bending can consist of either summoning or manipulation (e.g, a general bonus to X-bending if X is abundant nearby, with the general exception that summoning Earth seems to be impossible.) Haven't we seen Katara summon water out of essentially nowhere often enough? (Also, I am not borrowing anything from that movie unless at literal gunpoint.)

The difficulty I see with fire-based weapons is when going up against another Firebender: presumably they'd be as liable to manipulation by your opponent as by yourself, and you'd be a closer target for damage. (...Do most weapons have a wooden shaft? Isn't that just polearms?)

The thing is, though, while you can certainly use weapons while firebending, I don't see how they mutually reinforce, especially (equally, there's nothing to stop you holding a sword when air or water-bending, but I don't see the same synergy you'd get with hammers+rock-punching.) Maybe some ideas will suggest themselves when and if we get down to specific techniques.

...Uh, also, I have a slow connection, so I haven't really gotten around to watching all those videos. Could you maybe summarise?

[endoperez]

I'm in a hurry, but this is towards Samurai Jill's reply...

All bending styles benefit from training in the unarmed combat itself. The skills overlap a lot: breathing, stances, strikes, tactics etc.

Good point about air, didn't remember how hard it was to block.

"X is the weapon of X-bender" is different with water. Waterbenders don't use any weapons while bending water. I'm not sure if they can; even if they do, they lose control on the hand doing the bending. Open palm is used to push and pull, the wrist of the backhand is hooked down in water whip, spread fingers are used to send ice shards etc. One hand bending and the other holding a weapon could be interesting, though.

Controlling water isn't like bending in general. It's like a firebender having fire-whip or the two fire-daggers; or an earthbender holding a weapon in a rock-covered fist.

Again, good point about enemy firebenders being able to control the fire in a burning weapon. I guess that means weapons that are on fire would be a bad idea.
I realized that firebenders might not be able to destroy rocks thrown at them, with just fire alone. When Iroh was caught and chained and Zuko came to his rescue, Z dodged but Iroh destroyed the stones. In Zuko Alone, Z crushed the stones with his swords.

Sorry about your slow internet, I got a faster connection yesterday so I went overboard with the videos. :smallredface: They are (real-world) videos about weapon practice. I thought it'd be nice to include examples.
Here's a page with static images (http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/weapon.htm) of some of most of them.
Oh, and the firebending examples are basically fire-themed circus tricks - staffs, rods, juggling, ropes, whips, "swords", etc.

[Anteros]

To the contrary, neither of them was really winning until that point, and her actions there show that her cunning, a major contributor to her skill, was still intact in spite of her breakdown. Contrast to Zuko, who was still as stupid as ever, openly telling Azula he could redirect her lightning if she shot it at him.

Yes, she broke the rules, but do you honestly think she cared about the rules? Her focus was winning, pure and simple. She was never the type to put anything before success - remember the ending to "The Chase?" "A Princess surrenders with honor..." followed by a fire blast at the first sign of one of her foes being distracted. This is why she's so dangerous. She's very quick, very cunning, and seizes every advantage she can to win, rules and honor be damned.

Heck, she was ultimately defeated because Katara outwitted her, finding a method to attack and restrain her that she could not anticipate, not because her foes defeated her in some stand-up fight.

Zevox

Well if she didn't care about the rules then she's stupid. Ignoring rules and honor is fine in a real fight. If you do it in a formal duel then automatically you lose. Considering that they were engaged in a formal duel over the fate of a kingdom...ignoring the rules is kinda a bad idea.

[Samurai Jill]

I'm in a hurry, but this is towards Samurai Jill's reply...

All bending styles benefit from training in the unarmed combat itself. The skills overlap a lot: breathing, stances, strikes, tactics etc.
Fair point.

Good point about air, didn't remember how hard it was to block.

"X is the weapon of X-bender" is different with water. Waterbenders don't use any weapons while bending water. I'm not sure if they can; even if they do, they lose control on the hand doing the bending. Open palm is used to push and pull, the wrist of the backhand is hooked down in water whip, spread fingers are used to send ice shards etc. One hand bending and the other holding a weapon could be interesting, though.
Interesting. Theoretically, you can make a similar point about Firebenders- projecting lightning seems to need two fingers pointing forward, etc.

Again, good point about enemy firebenders being able to control the fire in a burning weapon. I guess that means weapons that are on fire would be a bad idea.
I realized that firebenders might not be able to destroy rocks thrown at them, with just fire alone. When Iroh was caught and chained and Zuko came to his rescue, Z dodged but Iroh destroyed the stones. In Zuko Alone, Z crushed the stones with his swords.
There's a complication in that fight in that Zuko was trying not to use his Firebending skills at all- we've seen Azula blast straight through rock walls using her standard fire-blast, (then again, this is Azula we're talking about.) But yeah, Earthbending might be particularly tricky to block as opposed to dodging.

I was thinking of covering this is the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9275203#post9275203)- maybe rock-punches gain a bonus against Defend attempts, but a penalty against Evade.

Thanks for the pics, BTW, I appreciate them. :)

[TSGames]

Well if she didn't care about the rules then she's stupid. Ignoring rules and honor is fine in a real fight. If you do it in a formal duel then automatically you lose. Considering that they were engaged in a formal duel over the fate of a kingdom...ignoring the rules is kinda a bad idea.
Um...I don't know about you, but I didn't exactly see any witnesses to the fight.... For that matter, I don't think anyone would have contested the result if Zuko had lost and Katara been killed. Honestly, are you really going to stand up and point at the sociopathic and now outright crazy murder-princess, who has just killed two extremely powerful warriors, and say "She cheated!" After accusing her, I think the best fate you could hope for would be banishment.

[Zevox]

Well if she didn't care about the rules then she's stupid. Ignoring rules and honor is fine in a real fight. If you do it in a formal duel then automatically you lose. Considering that they were engaged in a formal duel over the fate of a kingdom...ignoring the rules is kinda a bad idea.
And who exactly do you think would be enforcing those rules? Her father? Not a chance - he wouldn't care how she did it, all that would matter to him is that she killed her traitor brother and another of the Avatar's companions, securing their victory (if he defeated Aang). One more success under his prodigy daughter's belt.

And who else exactly has authority over her? Nobody. She was already about to be crowned Firelord, and she's probably the third best firebender in the world after her father and uncle, which would make enforcing them by force unlikely at best. Anybody likely to be willing to stand up to her at that point wouldn't be doing it because she broke the rules of her Agni Kai, they'd be trying to depose her for the same reason Zuko and Katara did.

Zevox

[Samurai Jill]

And who exactly do you think would be enforcing those rules? Her father? Not a chance - he wouldn't care how she did it, all that would matter to him is that she killed her traitor brother and another of the Avatar's companions, securing their victory (if he defeated Aang). One more success under his prodigy daughter's belt...
In case you didn't notice, one of the main themes, or points, of Azula's story was that her utter disregard for others, and general standards of honour or trust, was what essentially triggered her downfall. Her inability to retain the real loyalty of those closest to her- even her own father- was what triggered her insanity. So, yes, this kind of behaviour is ultimately stupid.

The whole debate here is retarded. It's impossible to tell clearly whether the outcome of a given fight was due to (A) natural talent, (B) extensive training, (C) luck, or (D) story logic/character development/thematic commentary, or whether it was some combination of the above, and if so, in what proportion. Gods but I hate 'versus' threads.

[Samurai Jill]

*sighs* Sorry. Look, generally speaking, it would be reasonable to conclude that Azula is a tough cookie and should be ranked pretty highly on the skill scale. But Zuko, Katara and Aang advance substantially in ability over time, and she doesn't. Sometimes scene outcomes are distorted by plot requirements. Is it really productive to argue this much over whether Azula "would have won" in scene X under 'ideal' conditions?

...Godzilla could take Batman. There. Let's move on with our lives.

[Zevox]

Is it really productive to argue this much over whether Azula "would have won" in scene X under 'ideal' conditions?
And who exactly is doing that? I've been contesting specific points only, mostly dealing with the idea that Azula "cheating" during her duel with Zuko is somehow an indictment against her abilities or intelligence.

Zevox

[Adumbration]

And who exactly is doing that? I've been contesting specific points only, mostly dealing with the idea that Azula "cheating" during her duel with Zuko is somehow an indictment against her abilities or intelligence.

Zevox

It is an indictment against her bending prowess in relation to Zuko, however. Azula had to resort to unusual methods because she herself recognized that brute strength would not conquer Zuko this time - hence, Zuko can be ranked as a more powerful bender than her in that situation, at that time.

[Yulian]

A
Huu's ability to bend plants seems to be something unique to him. We never see anyone else who can do it, really, so would you put it on par with Bloodbending in difficulty? Or is there some overlap? Like, if you can Bloodbend, it follows you could pick up Plantbending pretty easily and vice versa? (EDIT: Or are they essentially the same thing? That might make Huu a bit more...interesting.)


Oh. I thought it would seem obvious.

Not much plant life at the poles. Plenty of ice, not a lot of seaweed. I imagine we never see the Northern or Southern Water Tribes use the plant trick because they never had enough plant material to work with. Hama never developed her tricks until she was brought to a more temperate climate.

Remember, Hama can use a variant of plantbending to suck the water from living plants. I noted that Huu's power seems more like combining Hama's two techniques at a lower level of difficulty. Huu didn't need the full moon for plantbending, Hama and Katara did need it for bloodbending.

I'd say sandbending is like earthbending using waterbending techniques, rather like how lighting redirection is firebending using waterbending techniques. Toph did say that she was "working on (her) sandbending" in the beach episode.

I would say it's not unique, but that it is one area where Toph's blindness does actively work against her. Note that we often saw Dai Lee agents blast rocks apart into powder. We also saw the "quicksand" trick done multiple times by several different earthbenders, from King Bumi to General Fong. Remember him? He buried Katara in the ground to try and induce the Avatar State in Aang.

Moving to the Avatar State questions, Aang never used lightning likely because he was doing fine already. Also, why throw an attack at a foe who can likely redirect it? We know for an absolute fact that Avatar Roku could bend magma (earth plus fire, most likely), yet Aang never did it in the Avatar State unless Roku was acting directly through him.

I see Holocron Coder posted a list. I would contest one of those. Azula was shown to be flat out better than Zuko every time they clashed. He didn't actually beat her in one single fight I can recall, and they had a couple. I frankly think it was an interesting thing, storywise, the fact that she really was superior to him in many ways...she was just a sociopathic monster.

I would also sit Bumi at the level of Iroh and Ozai in terms of bending prowess. Bumi essentially retook a city alone. I cannot for a moment doubt he could have simply destroyed it had he chosen to do so.



And, as you suggest, there are cases where a teacher has instructed the student on the correct form for a given technique, without actual Bending taking place (e.g, when Ihro instructs Zuko on the defensive lightning technique.) It's possible you could get some kind of synergy with conventional swordsmanship here.

That would also be so as not to kill their students. In Krav Maga we are taught a good number of ways to disarm an opponent who is carrying a firearm, but no one has ever actually shot at us.

endoperez, I'm not sure all Air Nomads were pacifists right up to the end. Note the armour bits around Monk Gyatso's bones? That makes it very likely some Fire Nations soldiers died in the assault. Also, the former Avatar Yangchen told Aang that he may have to kill Ozai.


It is an indictment against her bending prowess in relation to Zuko, however. Azula had to resort to unusual methods because she herself recognized that brute strength would not conquer Zuko this time - hence, Zuko can be ranked as a more powerful bender than her in that situation, at that time.

The only reason she seemed to be losing the final Agni Kai with Zuko was because she was in the middle of a full-blown psychotic break. I would argue that there is enough evidence to suggest that Azula was performing below spec, as opposed to Zuko being any better than her when she's not falling apart.

- Yulian

[SmartAlec]

The only reason she seemed to be losing the final Agni Kai with Zuko was because she was in the middle of a full-blown psychotic break. I would argue that there is enough evidence to suggest that Azula was performing below spec, as opposed to Zuko being any better than her when she's not falling apart.

- Yulian

The thing is, I think the reason she was losing to Zuko there was for very much the same reason that she excelled at other times - she's psychotic. Should 'prone to instability' be considered a factor when gauging her overall power-level?

[endoperez]

endoperez, I'm not sure all Air Nomads were pacifists right up to the end. Note the armour bits around Monk Gyatso's bones? That makes it very likely some Fire Nations soldiers died in the assault. Also, the former Avatar Yangchen told Aang that he may have to kill Ozai.

The armours around Gyatso have barely visible skeletons in them (1 (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/103/397.jpg)). I just would've liked to see how that happened. The most violent thing airbending is shown to accomplish in the show is probably Aang smashing sand-gliders after Appa was captured. That's about the level of Katara causing an iceberg to break into pieces, on the pilot episode...


Can we drop the nitpicking about who'd win against who? A general idea about power levels is enough, as this thread is about general power levels. Even crazy Azula was of a similar level against dragon-taught Zuko, so they can be put on the same tier, as far as this thread is concerned. Sane Azula wouldn't be as high as Ozai or Iroh, any way, so sane and insane Azula are also about the same power level. Pre-dragons Zuko is worse than her, post-dragons Zuko seems to be of about the same general level.

What if we discussed Azula vs Katara, instead? Katara didn't face Azula head-on after the agni kai, but then, the comet was still up, and Katara was doing pretty well back at the end of season 2. She might be at about Azula's level. Again, nor perhaps just as good, but at a similar level of prowess. Anyone against?

[BladeofOblivion]

The thing is, I think the reason she was losing to Zuko there was for very much the same reason that she excelled at other times - she's psychotic. Should 'prone to instability' be considered a factor when gauging her overall power-level?

Actually, a large part of her ability is that she is RUTHLESSLY efficient. She did not win in the early fights because she was unstable, she won because she knew exactly how much force was required and how to use her power efficiently. She may or may not have less Brute "Power" than Zuko or any other character, but her true strengths are the fact that she is apparently an expert in sociology and the fact that she is able to last longer than any other character in battle, since she doesn't waste anything. Her insane levels of agility and cunning help quite a bit too.


And I will agree that Katara is pretty dang powerful. By the end, she's probably significantly better than any other Waterbender alive, possibly even the Master who taught her, though too little is shown of him to make any real argument either way.

[Zevox]

It is an indictment against her bending prowess in relation to Zuko, however. Azula had to resort to unusual methods because she herself recognized that brute strength would not conquer Zuko this time - hence, Zuko can be ranked as a more powerful bender than her in that situation, at that time.
Azula was never the brute strength type - whatever gave you that idea? To the contrary, sneaky tactics were always very much a part of how she operated. Again, look at her escape in "The Chase," or her strike against Aang from behind when he entered the Avatar State, or her destroying parts of the building Aang was jumping on during their fight in "The Chase" and then setting it on fire when she entered to finish the job. Even her basic attacks were always about control and precision, never brute force. She was extremely skilled, cunning, and efficient - for her to use a tactic like shooting lightning at Katara instead of Zuko, especially when Zuko openly informed her that he could redirect it, is entirely normal for her; even surprisingly so given how far gone her mind seemed at that point.


The thing is, I think the reason she was losing to Zuko there was for very much the same reason that she excelled at other times - she's psychotic. Should 'prone to instability' be considered a factor when gauging her overall power-level?
She wasn't "prone to instability," though. Quite the contrary, up until Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal, the one facet of her personality that most defined her was her discipline. She was always in control, of herself and others. And it was precisely because this was her single strongest character trait that her failure to control Mai and Ty Lee through fear hit her so hard and set off her mental breakdown.


What if we discussed Azula vs Katara, instead? Katara didn't face Azula head-on after the agni kai, but then, the comet was still up, and Katara was doing pretty well back at the end of season 2. She might be at about Azula's level. Again, nor perhaps just as good, but at a similar level of prowess. Anyone against?
By the end, she is probably of a similar level of skill, if not quite the same. Had the comet not been around, I'd have bet on Katara in a one-on-one fight between them, at least assuming Azula was still in mental breakdown mode (if she weren't, it'd be pretty hard to call). She was also pretty smart about how she fought as well - again, perhaps not as cunning as Azula, but certainly more so than Zuko - which would also have helped.


And I will agree that Katara is pretty dang powerful. By the end, she's probably significantly better than any other Waterbender alive, even the Master who taught her.
I don't know if I'd say that, though. She is certainly a prodigy of the art, but assuming she's better than Pakku when we see so little of what Pakku is capable of, especially given how little time she has actually had since she began her training, is pushing it too far if you ask me.


I would also sit Bumi at the level of Iroh and Ozai in terms of bending prowess. Bumi essentially retook a city alone. I cannot for a moment doubt he could have simply destroyed it had he chosen to do so.
Agreed. Bumi's skill, even what little we see of it, is extremely impressive, more so than any other earthbender's by far, with the sole possible exception of Toph managing to discover metalbending.

Zevox

[Adumbration]

Azula was never the brute strength type - whatever gave you that idea? To the contrary, sneaky tactics were always very much a part of how she operated. Again, look at her escape in "The Chase," or her strike against Aang from behind when he entered the Avatar State, or her destroying parts of the building Aang was jumping on during their fight in "The Chase" and then setting it on fire when she entered to finish the job. Even her basic attacks were always about control and precision, never brute force. She was extremely skilled, cunning, and efficient - for her to use a tactic like shooting lightning at Katara instead of Zuko, especially when Zuko openly informed her that he could redirect it, is entirely normal for her; even surprisingly so given how far gone her mind seemed at that point.


If you take a closer look at all those scenes, you'll find that she only resorts to underhanded tactics when about to lose: surrounded by 4 extremely powerful benders (and Sokka), the moment before Aang enters Avatar state that she would surely lose to... and when she is about to lose to Zuko in a contest of bending power and skill.

I'm not denying her cunning or deviousness.

[Zevox]

If you take a closer look at all those scenes, you'll find that she only resorts to underhanded tactics when about to lose: surrounded by 4 extremely powerful benders (and Sokka), the moment before Aang enters Avatar state that she would surely lose to... and when she is about to lose to Zuko in a contest of bending power and skill.
Er, she seemed to have been planning on Aang entering the Avatar State, given she knew to move behind his position when he set up the crystals. And you ignored my other example, when she destroyed the building Aang was jumping on, then set it on fire when she entered, trapping him in a burning building while she moved in for the kill.

And the fact that she's willing to seize any advantage to win, and always has been, and that this is no small part of what makes her so dangerous, is kind of my point.


I'm not denying her cunning or deviousness.
No, you're just implying that her using them somehow reflects a failure on her part because she wasn't able to win without them. Which is silly. Which is why I'm contesting your statements.

Zevox

[BladeofOblivion]

I agree with Zevox here. The current subject of conversation seems to be suggesting that Cunning and Intelligence are not important in a fight, and therefore, any fighter that uses it to win over brute strength is somehow inferior. Perhaps this is just my imagination, but this is what I have seen as the underlying point of this entire conversation.

[VanBuren]

I agree with Zevox here. The current subject of conversation seems to be suggesting that Cunning and Intelligence are not important in a fight, and therefore, any fighter that uses it to win over brute strength is somehow inferior. Perhaps this is just my imagination, but this is what I have seen as the underlying point of this entire conversation.

But it has little do with her skill as a bender. When she cheated in the Agni Kai, that was a point for her prowess as a warrior, not as a Firebender.

[Zevox]

But it has little do with her skill as a bender. When she cheated in the Agni Kai, that was a point for her prowess as a warrior, not as a Firebender.
You say that as though Firebenders were not warriors. This, too, is just silly.

Zevox

[BladeofOblivion]

But it has little do with her skill as a bender. When she cheated in the Agni Kai, that was a point for her prowess as a warrior, not as a Firebender.

So what you are saying is that making ineffective use of your power makes you better? :smallconfused:

I would like to direct you to the local webcomic: The relevant Arc starts HERE. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)

[lord_khaine]

So what you are saying is that making ineffective use of your power makes you better?

I would like to direct you to the local webcomic: The relevant Arc starts HERE.


And what you are saying is that cheating in a exam makes you a better student.

Also, i dont see any relevante on the comic you linked.

[endoperez]

So what you are saying is that making ineffective use of your power makes you better? :smallconfused:

I thought he said that having a good tactic doesn't change the size of the flames. If she had cheated by having archers shoot Zuko down, that would tell of her skill as a magnificent bastard, but not of her skill as firebender.

The reply was in answer to "The current subject of conversation seems to be suggesting that Cunning and Intelligence are not important in a fight". That ignores the fact that this thread was about bending prowess only; Sokka is a fighter and a strategist, but that doesn't make him a bender. It just makes him a fighter. Ty Lee can defeat a squad of earthbenders, but that doesn't make her an earthbender...

[VanBuren]

You say that as though Firebenders were not warriors. This, too, is just silly.

Zevox

I didn't actually say that, but whatever floats your boat.

Really now. Her cheating doesn't demonstrate skill at Firebending, in the sense that it in no way demonstrates a superior level of skill at in the art of Firebending.

[BladeofOblivion]

And what you are saying is that cheating in a exam makes you a better student.

Also, i dont see any relevante on the comic you linked.

I'm not saying cheating on an exam makes you a better student, at least as far as the Honor Code goes. However, cheating on an exam does progress you towards better grades, (assuming that you aren't caught) and that will put you closer to success, if that is your goal.

The entire point of that arc in the comic is that brute force means nothing if you haven't the cunning to use it. Xykon would qualify as a much stronger caster than Vaarsuvius, despite the fact that, at that time, Vaarsuvius' effective caster level was likely higher than Xykon's, if only by a bit. Xykon won that fight through his superior cunning, and better usage of his abilities than Vaarsuvius, who was pretty much trying to throw out whatever he/she could to lower his hitpoints.



I thought he said that having a good tactic doesn't change the size of the flames. If she had cheated by having archers shoot Zuko down, that would tell of her skill as a magnificent bastard, but not of her skill as firebender.

The reply was in answer to "The current subject of conversation seems to be suggesting that Cunning and Intelligence are not important in a fight". That ignores the fact that this thread was about bending prowess only; Sokka is a fighter and a strategist, but that doesn't make him a bender. It just makes him a fighter. Ty Lee can defeat a squad of earthbenders, but that doesn't make her an earthbender...

And now the size of the fire you produce is the primary method for determining your worth as a Firebender? If she had just shot him down with archers, then it would mean nothing. The same way it would mean nothing about Zuko's strength if Katara had fought Azula instead. However, people seem to agree that Zuko's ability to redirect lightning is important to his strength as a Firebender. This is in spite of the fact that, according to Iroh, the technique is far closer to Waterbending. The point of that example is that something does not have to directly be a move of your bending style to become an advantage as long as it is wholly yours. Saying that Azula's efficient and intelligent use of bending does not make her a powerful bender is like saying that an Illusion-specialized Wizard is inherently worse at magic than an Evocation-based Wizard, due to the fact that Illusion requires subtlety and intelligence to be effective while Evocation is Point-and-Shoot.

As for the examples of Sokka and Ty Lee, you seem to be making metaphors that do not fully apply. The only way I can think of that makes that argument justified is the Idea that Azula isn't a Firebender at all. Otherwise, that comparison is completely meaningless.


In any case, I am quite sick of this argument. Can we simply agree to disagree? I understand where you are coming from and politely disagree. Does that make me Inherently wrong?

[VanBuren]

In any case, I am quite sick of this argument. Can we simply agree to disagree? I understand where you are coming from and politely disagree. Does that make me Inherently wrong?

It's odd, from the tone of the discussion, it felt like the other way around. :smallannoyed:

[BladeofOblivion]

It's odd, from the tone of the discussion, it felt like the other way around. :smallannoyed:

If you say so. My way with words can be extremely confusing, according to all my friends and family. I intended most of the above as simple rebuttal. If it ever seemed heated or passionate, I apologize for that. However, I would prefer not to start an argument over whether or not we were arguing. :smalltongue:

[VanBuren]

If you say so. My way with words can be extremely confusing, according to all my friends and family. I intended most of the above as simple rebuttal. If it ever seemed heated or passionate, I apologize for that. However, I would prefer not to start an argument over whether or not we were arguing. :smalltongue:

*sigh*

No, no you're right. And truth be told, I didn't feel like I was being attacked by you personally. So yes, I think we can agree to disagree.

Just one last little bit from me though, and then I can let the matter go on my end. I consider bending to be a specific skill, much like swordsmanship, for instance. So I don't think Azula's conduct demonstrates her Firebending skill anymore that it would demonstrate her skill with the sword, because to me the act had nothing to do with her prowess as a bender and everything to do with her tactical expertise.

[lord_khaine]

And i totaly agree with Vanburen

[Samurai Jill]

You say that as though Firebenders were not warriors. This, too, is just silly.
You say this as if the ability to retain the loyalty of comrades was not important in war. Which is silly.

[Zevox]

And what you are saying is that cheating in a exam makes you a better student.
There is no comparison between the two. Being a skilled firebender is not defined by fighting by some system of rules, whereas exams require you to use only your own knowledge or else they are pointless. Azula "cheating" at her Agni-Kai has, if anything, the opposite relevance of cheating on exams - she displayed the ability to use her powers in a cunning way her opponent did not anticipate, and nearly killed him in so doing. That is a demonstration of skill.


I thought he said that having a good tactic doesn't change the size of the flames.
Nor are the size of the flames terribly relevant to the skill with which they are used. Or does "prowess" no longer require that a person be skillful in their use of their abilities? That seems to be what you imply with this:


That ignores the fact that this thread was about bending prowess only;
Which again, strikes me as ridiculous.


If she had cheated by having archers shoot Zuko down, that would tell of her skill as a magnificent bastard, but not of her skill as firebender.
If she had done that, she would not have been the one fighting, and so that obviously would not be relevant to her abilities as a Firebender. But she was the one fighting, and fighting with her Firebending.

Zevox

[Sholos]

Okay, breaking the rules in a formal duel does not count as "using her powers in a cunning way that her opponent did not anticipate". With as much emphasis on formality as the Firebending nation has, there's not a single opponent who would have anticipated that. Are you seriously suggesting that had the fight been outside of the formal duel structure, Zuko would not have anticipated Azula going for Katara? Not to mention the fact that Katara would also have been attacking, and Azula would have been even more screwed.

The comparison to cheating on a test is an excellent one. Sure, you get a better grade, but that doesn't mean you're a better student.

[Zevox]

Okay, breaking the rules in a formal duel does not count as "using her powers in a cunning way that her opponent did not anticipate". With as much emphasis on formality as the Firebending nation has, there's not a single opponent who would have anticipated that.
Perhaps they would not, but that does not change the fact that yes, it was a cunning use of her powers that her opponent did not anticipate.


Are you seriously suggesting that had the fight been outside of the formal duel structure, Zuko would not have anticipated Azula going for Katara?
I am suggesting that what would have happened in other circumstances is irrelevant. Fighting outside the duel structure would change a great deal more than simply Azula's ability to use that particular tactic. But that doesn't matter - she worked with the circumstances she had, not with others.


The comparison to cheating on a test is an excellent one.
No it isn't. There is no parallel. Test results are irrelevant if they don't reflect your actual knowledge - battle results, especially ones with stakes as high as that fight, matter only insofar as someone wins and someone loses, unless someone outside the fight is willing and able to enforce some other rules upon it. And as I mentioned before, there was no chance to anyone enforcing the rules of the Agni Kai here.

Zevox

[VanBuren]

All she did was change her target. There's nothing remarkable of skillful about that. It has nothing to do with her skill as a bender.

[Anteros]

And who exactly do you think would be enforcing those rules? Her father? Not a chance - he wouldn't care how she did it, all that would matter to him is that she killed her traitor brother and another of the Avatar's companions, securing their victory (if he defeated Aang). One more success under his prodigy daughter's belt.

And who else exactly has authority over her? Nobody. She was already about to be crowned Firelord, and she's probably the third best firebender in the world after her father and uncle, which would make enforcing them by force unlikely at best. Anybody likely to be willing to stand up to her at that point wouldn't be doing it because she broke the rules of her Agni Kai, they'd be trying to depose her for the same reason Zuko and Katara did.

Zevox

Then she could have just attacked Zuko and Katara along with all of her guards. She chose to participate in duel.

[Zevox]

All she did was change her target. There's nothing remarkable of skillful about that. It has nothing to do with her skill as a bender.
It is when she does it as a surprise tactic that catches her opponent off-guard and takes him out of the fight entirely, and could even have killed him had he not managed to partially redirect the blast.


Then she could have just attacked Zuko and Katara along with all of her guards. She chose to participate in duel.
Which was itself a calculated move. Katara even pointed this out, remember? She was isolating Zuko so she didn't have to fight two people at once.

Besides, she banished all her guards worth a damn, remember? The Dai Li were sent away and Li and Lo remarked that she done the same with the "Royal Firebenders" (presumably the palace's elite guards). If she had any left, odds are they'd have been no problem for Zuko and Katara anyway, and they certainly weren't on-hand at that moment even if they were around.

Zevox

[Reverent-One]

It is when she does it as a surprise tactic that catches her opponent off-guard and takes him out of the fight entirely, and could even have killed him had he not managed to partially redirect the blast.

Nope. There's no bending skill involved there, merely general combat tatics.

[Zevox]

Nope. There's no bending skill involved there, merely general combat tatics.
You say that as though the two are utterly unrelated. They're not. Bending, especially Firebending, is a technique that is mostly used for fighting - nine times out of ten, skillful use of bending is skillful fighting.

Zevox

[Reverent-One]

You say that as though the two are utterly unrelated. They're not. Bending, especially Firebending, is a technique that is mostly used for fighting - nine times out of ten, skillful use of bending is skillful fighting.

Zevox

I didn't say they're totally unrelated. They merely are in this case. If Azula had some of the Yu-yan archers hidden and then shoot Zuko with an arrow she would have come up with a "surprise tactic that catches her opponent off-guard and takes him out of the fight entirely", and it would have reflected her bending prowess just as much as it did for her to take a pot shot at Katara and forcing Zuko to take the blast to save her.

[VanBuren]

You say that as though the two are utterly unrelated. They're not. Bending, especially Firebending, is a technique that is mostly used for fighting - nine times out of ten, skillful use of bending is skillful fighting.

Zevox

They can be used in Firebending, but they are not themselves Firebending.

[Zevox]

I didn't say they're totally unrelated. They merely are in this case. If Azula had some of the Yu-yan archers hidden and then shoot Zuko with an arrow she would have come up with a "surprise tactic that catches her opponent off-guard and takes him out of the fight entirely", and it would have reflected her bending prowess just as much as it did for her to take a pot shot at Katara and forcing Zuko to take the blast to save her.
No, that wouldn't reflect on her prowess because in that case she would be ordering others to attack her foes for her, not doing so herself. Her own actions in battle do reflect on her prowess because they were, in fact, her own actions, not those of others.


They can be used in Firebending, but they are not themselves Firebending.
So then one's combat prowess is totally unrelated to one's skill with a combat technique? Again, makes no sense. It's like saying that when comparing two swordsmen their skill is totally divorced from their ability to use the field of battle to their advantage. And if you're inclined to think that statement is correct, I think you ought to take that up with Master Piandao.

Zevox

[VanBuren]

So then one's combat prowess is totally unrelated to one's skill with a combat technique? Again, makes no sense. It's like saying that when comparing two swordsmen their skill is totally divorced from their ability to use the field of battle to their advantage. And if you're inclined to think that statement is correct, I think you ought to take that up with Master Piandao.

Zevox

I'm saying that skill with a particular weapon is related to, but not the same, as an aptitude for combat tactics.

[Reverent-One]

No, that wouldn't reflect on her prowess because in that case she would be ordering others to attack her foes for her, not doing so herself. Her own actions in battle do reflect on her prowess because they were, in fact, her own actions, not those of others.

More like it doesn't demonstrate her bending prowess because her skill with bending doesn't comes into the equation, much like with her shot at Katara. But your answer is interesting, because with your logic, if she had pulled a knife and thrown it at Katara, forcing Zuko to get in the way, that would have shown her shown her bending prowess as well, since it's her own actions in battle. Now that makes no sense.

[endoperez]

So then one's combat prowess is totally unrelated to one's skill with a combat technique? Again, makes no sense. It's like saying that when comparing two swordsmen their skill is totally divorced from their ability to use the field of battle to their advantage. And if you're inclined to think that statement is correct, I think you ought to take that up with Master Piandao.

It's funny you should say that, because that's EXACTLY what Piandao said about Sokka.

As we trained, it wasn't your skills that impressed me. No, it certainly wasn't your skills. You showed something beyond that. Creativity, versatility, intelligence. These are the traits that define a great swordsman, and these are the traits that define you.

And a bit later
I believe that you are more worthy than any man I have ever trained.

Sokka was a poor swordsman, but despite that he was able use the battlefield to his advantage. It took Piandao a long time to defeat him. Sokka's ability to use the field of battle to his advantage is indeed divorced from his skill with the sword (or boomerang, or club).

[Partysan]

There are three general abilities tied to combat.

1. Physical Ability:
Azula is very fast and agile and stronger and more resilient than a normal girl of her age.
Zuko loses in agility, I'd say, but not by much. The blue ghost episodes show that he's very agile as well. However, being older and male he'll be stronger than her, probably significantly. As we know him, he will have more stamina as well.
All in all, Zuko is probably more physically powerful than Azula.

2. Technique:
Azula is a prodigy of firebending and employs her technique with great speed and precision. She knows how to use lightning and complicated applications like jetflying.
Zuko is a very apt bender as well and has gained power since being taught by the dragons. He is however not as talented as Azula and lacks in the highly advanced techniques Azula employs, though his basic and advanced basic techniques are very powerful.
Zuko loses to Azula in technique. Their basics are equally strong, but Azula has advanced techniques in her repertoire which Zuko hasn't been taught. His ability to redirect her lightning does not completely offset her greater talent.

3. Combat Intellect:
This is where Azula truly shines. She is extremely cool and composed and very well-versed in reading and manipulating opponents. Generally she's a great tactician. This is also where she suffers so hard in her breakdown, losing composure and coolness, a lot of precision and accuracy with it.
I don't think it was especially clever tactically to shoot Katara, she was like, "Hey, I'm standing exactly here besides Zuko and look very vulnerable, also you hate me and I'm completely helpless against this attack!" It worked, though, but only because Zuko felt compelled to take the shot. One might attribute this to Azula's ability to read and manipulate people, but it might have been pure instinct as well.
While Azula loses, this is what Zuko gained much in by visiting the dragons. He is now much more composed and less impatient and impulsive.
While for the most part of the series this ability is what makes Azula so magnificent and Zuko such a loser, in the duel, those are essentially reversed.

During the Agni Kai, I personally saw Zuko as the superior one. Ask yourself: if Katara hadn't been there at all, would he have won? Probably yes I'd say.
However despite her breakdown, Azula might still have won in a non-formal battle situation where she could have used the environment more to her advantage. If she still had the mental ability to do so, that is. I'm not at all sure there.

Now, talking about firebending technique only, I'd say Azula comes out top because of her knowledge of advanced techniques and greater inborn talent. Zuko is superior because he uses his more basic skills to great effect, using better timing and placement due to his more composed mental state.
Still, at the end of book three they are on similar levels, she being maybe just one level higher than him in pure firebending skill.

[Reverent-One]

Now, talking about firebending technique only, I'd say Azula comes out top because of her knowledge of advanced techniques and greater inborn talent. Zuko is superior because he uses his more basic skills to great effect, using better timing and placement due to his more composed mental state.
Still, at the end of book three they are on similar levels, she being maybe just one level higher than him in pure firebending skill.

You think she's a level higher in pure firebending when, in a contest of pure firebending, she was losing?

[Mystic Muse]

You think she's a level higher in pure firebending when, in a contest of pure firebending, she was losing?

In all fairness, she was partially insane then.

[Reverent-One]

In all fairness, she was partially insane then.

Which doesn't remove her bending abilities, she still shoots lightning just fine. That would reduce Partysan's third point, Combat Intellect.

[Partysan]

You think she's a level higher in pure firebending when, in a contest of pure firebending, she was losing?

This isn't a contest of "pure firebending", because my other two points are attributes which are important in every kind of physical confrontation (though combat intellect is negligible in arm wrestling, but you get my point).

Azula has better technique, slightly inferior physique and heavily inferior combat intellect when fighting Zuko at the end of the series. She knows the techniques, but she isn't in the mental state to correctly use them to full effect. Just watched it again. She's essentially rushing in with big flames.

[Reverent-One]

This isn't a contest of "pure firebending", because my other two points are attributes which are important in every kind of physical confrontation (though combat intellect is negligible in arm wrestling, but you get my point).

But an agni-kai is about as close to pure firebending as you're going to get. She did pull in some of her combat intellect by shooting Katara, but that didn't happen until she was already losing.


Azula has better technique, slightly inferior physique and heavily inferior combat intellect when fighting Zuko at the end of the series. She knows the techniques, but she isn't in the mental state to correctly use them to full effect. Just watched it again. She's essentially rushing in with big flames.

She fought much like she fought at the end of season 2, just with bigger flames thanks to the comet. Which is largely rushing in with big flames- makes sense considering she's in a firebending duel. Zuko is simply taking it all and holding his ground.

[Partysan]

But an agni-kai is about as close to pure firebending as you're going to get. She did pull in some of her combat intellect by shooting Katara, but that didn't happen until she was already losing.



She fought much like she fought at the end of season 2, just with bigger flames thanks to the comet. Which is largely rushing in with big flames- makes sense considering she's in a firebending duel. Zuko is simply taking it all and holding his ground.

I disagree about Azula's fighting style. Usually she prefers to attack much more concentrated and precise, more like with small sharp jabs instead of just covering the whole area with flame. Sure, the comet enhances the flames, but concentrating the strength of the fire on the point of attack seemed like her preferred strategy to me.
Also, Zuko is dispersing her attacks without exerting himself as much as she does. And he gets in a clean sweep. So far he seems to be dominating the duel. As well, baiting Azula to use her lightning he knew he could deliver right back (and she couldn't defend against) was actually clever tactics on his side - it was only horribly, horribly dumb of katara to run onto the field at that moment (which, happening behind him, he couldn't see in time).

[Zevox]

More like it doesn't demonstrate her bending prowess because her skill with bending doesn't comes into the equation, much like with her shot at Katara. But your answer is interesting, because with your logic, if she had pulled a knife and thrown it at Katara, forcing Zuko to get in the way, that would have shown her shown her bending prowess as well, since it's her own actions in battle. Now that makes no sense.
No, because that wouldn't involve her firebending. The fight we are discussing did - shooting lightning is firebending.


It's funny you should say that, because that's EXACTLY what Piandao said about Sokka.

As we trained, it wasn't your skills that impressed me. No, it certainly wasn't your skills. You showed something beyond that. Creativity, versatility, intelligence. These are the traits that define a great swordsman, and these are the traits that define you.

And a bit later
I believe that you are more worthy than any man I have ever trained.

Sokka was a poor swordsman, but despite that he was able use the battlefield to his advantage. It took Piandao a long time to defeat him. Sokka's ability to use the field of battle to his advantage is indeed divorced from his skill with the sword (or boomerang, or club).
Funny you mange to ignore the last sentence of the first quote you give. "These are the traits that define a great swordsmen." How exactly do you make it more clear than that? Sokka becomes skilled with his sword because of those traits. That is a part of what being a skilled swordsman is. It is thus ridiculous to say that they are separate matters entirely.


But an agni-kai is about as close to pure firebending as you're going to get.
An Agni-Kai is nothing but a duel between two firebenders. It is no more "pure firebending" than any other fight between firebenders; its only distinguishing trait is that it is a formal one-on-one.


As well, baiting Azula to use her lightning he knew he could deliver right back (and she couldn't defend against) was actually clever tactics on his side
Not when he did so by telling her he could redirect it. I mean really, what kind of fool gives away his tactic like that?

Zevox

[VanBuren]

Funny you mange to ignore the last sentence of the first quote you give. "These are the traits that define a great swordsmen." How exactly do you make it more clear than that? Sokka becomes skilled with his sword because of those traits. That is a part of what being a skilled swordsman is. It is thus ridiculous to say that they are separate matters entirely.

That same quote also explains that his actual skill is unimpressive. So where does that leave us?


Not when he did so by telling her he could redirect it. I mean really, what kind of fool gives away his tactic like that?

Zevox

Not that I believe this to be the best application, but that was arguably a taunt meant to piss her off and make her reckless. Certainly there are better ways to do that than to tip your hand, but it wasn't without merit.

[Zevox]

That same quote also explains that his actual skill is unimpressive. So where does that leave us?
With that fact that one's overall prowess as a swordsman involves more than mere technical skill. Rather the point I've been trying to make about firebending for the past couple of pages.

Zevox

[Partysan]

No, because that wouldn't involve her firebending. The fight we are discussing did - shooting lightning is firebending.

Being able to shoot lightning is a sign of being a very good firebender, yes. Directing the lighting onto Katara instead of Zuko however has no relation to firebending-specific skills.



Funny you mange to ignore the last sentence of the first quote you give. "These are the traits that define a great swordsmen." How exactly do you make it more clear than that? Sokka becomes skilled with his sword because of those traits. That is a part of what being a skilled swordsman is. It is thus ridiculous to say that they are separate matters entirely.

Sokka is a good fighter because of his creativity and intelligence. Sokka does also have skills in sword technique. Technique and tactics, while both having high influence on overall combat ability, are different matters.



An Agni-Kai is nothing but a duel between two firebenders. It is no more "pure firebending" than any other fight between firebenders; its only distinguishing trait is that it is a formal one-on-one.

The formal aspect also includes rules, which exclude most things other than firebending, while in a real fight firebenders can make use of more than only their bending abilities. Still, I get what you want to say and even partly agree.



Not when he did so by telling her he could redirect it. I mean really, what kind of fool gives away his tactic like that?

Zevox


It might not have been a perfectly thought out idea, but you can hardly call him out that hard when his trick perfectly worked. At least as I interpret it, Azula had the lightning ready to unleash on him when she saw Katara run onto the field and changed target. If Katara wouldn't have been so dumb, Azula would probably have had to chew on her own lightning. Hard.

[endoperez]

I'm quoting from all over the place. It's all Zevox, or at least should be.


You say that as though the two [bending and combat tactics] are utterly unrelated. They're not. Bending, especially Firebending, is a technique that is mostly used for fighting - nine times out of ten, skillful use of bending is skillful fighting.

What about that last one out of ten. We don't know if there are firebenders that can't fight.
If there's even a single skilled firebender who is poor at combat tactics, tactics just can't be intrinsic part of skillful firebending. I don't think there's such an example in the show, since it's set during wartime, so most firebenders would have been taught actual fighting too.


"These are the traits that define a great swordsmen." How exactly do you make it more clear than that? Sokka becomes skilled with his sword because of those traits. That is a part of what being a skilled swordsman is. It is thus ridiculous to say that they are separate matters entirely.

Piandao didn't say Sokka had become a skilled swordsman.
1) "Every A has B, C and D"
2) "S has B, C and D"
These do not imply "S must be A", merely "S might be A".

Any way, it's not directly applicable. "Swordsman" implies fighting ability all the time, at least for me. Swordeaters, jugglers etc performers handle swords, but I wouldn't call them swordsmen. However, the same is not necessarily true of firebenders - the circus performers or juggler-comparable firebenders might not know how to fight with it.


With that fact that one's overall prowess as a swordsman involves more than mere technical skill. Rather the point I've been trying to make about firebending for the past couple of pages.

If by "overall prowess as a swordsman" you mean "combat prowess as a sword-fighter", I agree, there's much more involved than technical skill. And similarly, "combat prowess as a firebender" also requires more than technical skill.

What I disagree with is if "overall prowess as a firebender" is the same as "combat prowess as a firebender".

[Reverent-One]

Being able to shoot lightning is a sign of being a very good firebender, yes. Directing the lighting onto Katara instead of Zuko however has no relation to firebending-specific skills.


This pretty much covers it. Zuko was winning the fight prior to Azula zapping Katara, showing that he was a better bender at that point in time. That Azula knocked him out first by forcing him to defend Katara does not mean that she's better at the art of firebending.

[Yulian]

I'm saying that skill with a particular weapon is related to, but not the same, as an aptitude for combat tactics.

Okay, I have to disagree with that. Skill with a weapon translates almost directly to knowing how to actually use it. How can someone be "good with a sword" and utterly incapable of using it in combat? It's not really possible.

I cannot see "skill with bending" as distinct from "using it in a fight". Unless you're trying to list all this like it's all about some kind of demo.



Sokka was a poor swordsman, but despite that he was able use the battlefield to his advantage. It took Piandao a long time to defeat him. Sokka's ability to use the field of battle to his advantage is indeed divorced from his skill with the sword (or boomerang, or club).

I again have to disagree. Using the field to your advantage is part of being a good swordsman. It's not possible to be "good with a sword" and have no idea how to position yourself or watch your surroundings.

What do you others think "being good with a sword" actually means? You can't be good with a sword and yet be unable to fight with it. That's impossible. It doesn't exist in some vacuum where it's not held in your hand which is attached to your body which is standing on your feet.

Okay, let me use a real-world example I am familiar with; firearms. Shooting a target is not the same as a tactical combat exercise. Being better at hitting a target can make you better in a tactical engagement, but without the additional skills, you can be as accurate as you can be and still lose because you forgot (or know nothing of) cover, movement, and so on.

You cannot be judged good at a combat technique unless you can actually apply it. I get the impression this "good with a sword" stuff involves standing in one place and doing fancy flourishes or something. Without your footwork and movement, it's worthless. Same with firebending.

I mean, I get this image of two firebenders standing side-by-side shooting blasts into the air and being judged as to who is "better" by how big the blast is, with no account taken as to any other factor.

Let me break down what I heard from Piandao. When he was talking about "skill" in that context, I can easily surmise that he's talking about Sokka's grip, the accuracy and speed of his blows, his recovery times, all that. That is part of swordfighting and involves manipulating the sword in your hand, but it's not all of the fighting. One person can have great technique with the sword, strong cuts, a firm grip, and be a stumblebum. They're not likely to be thought of as very skilled, overall, despite their sword-handling.

I've sparred with people who, at the time, were technically competent at a higher level than I was. But they lacked aggression and sureness in their attacks. That made them lose.


This pretty much covers it. Zuko was winning the fight prior to Azula zapping Katara, showing that he was a better bender at that point in time. That Azula knocked him out first by forcing him to defend Katara does not mean that she's better at the art of firebending.

I'm again going to note that "better than a crazy person in the midst of an epic mental breakdown" isn't a great metric. Also, let's get back to lightning. Even going nuts, Azula could whip it out. Zuko could not and indeed, never produced it on his own.

- Yulian

[Reverent-One]

I'm again going to note that "better than a crazy person in the midst of an epic mental breakdown" isn't a great metric. Also, let's get back to lightning. Even going nuts, Azula could whip it out. Zuko could not and indeed, never produced it on his own.

And yet he's capable of redirecting it, something Azula never does and is at least as difficult.

[endoperez]

Okay, I have to disagree with that. Skill with a weapon translates almost directly to knowing how to actually use it. How can someone be "good with a sword" and utterly incapable of using it in combat? It's not really possible.

I cannot see "skill with bending" as distinct from "using it in a fight". Unless you're trying to list all this like it's all about some kind of demo.

Skill with a weapon translates directly in fighting, yes. However, give a swordsman a stick, and he's still good at fighting. Is he a good stickfighter too?
Two skills can be related and trained together, but still separate.
To learn the sword you'll have to learn fighting, unless you already knew how to fight.


re: bending == fighting
See my previous post. The word "swordsman" implies that he can indeed fight with it, but "bender" might not - after all, some earthbenders just move boxes around, some firebenders work in the circus, some waterbenders operate what amounts to weird hydraulics. They can attack with the bending, but they might not know good combat tactics. Compare them to e.g. a blacksmith - really strong, used to handling tools than can double as weapons, not necessarily trained to fight.



This pretty much covers it. Zuko was winning the fight prior to Azula zapping Katara, showing that he was a better bender at that point in time. That Azula knocked him out first by forcing him to defend Katara does not mean that she's better at the art of firebending.

Zuko was winning a fight; that means that he was better at fighting under the circumstances (which favoured him), NOT that he was a better bender.

A counter-example: the earthbender in Zuko Alone was winning a fight against Zuko, and the circumstances favoured the earthbender. Does that make him a better bender? No, just a better fighter under the circumstances.

We don't know how well the earthbender would have fared to the end, if Zuko hadn't surprised him with "a dirty trick". I hope people won't start arguing about the possible power level of the nameless earthbender. :P ;)

[littlekKID]

Probably just a slightly different variety of earthbending. Toph was unfamiliar with it because she had never been around sand much before going to the desert, but it seems a fairly routine part of the discipline. Bumi was able to convert the ground Aang was running on into sand way back during their battle, Haru reduced a couple of rocks to sand in his season 1 episode, earthbenders who live in the desert learn to bend sand with no problem, etc. Toph even taught herself to do it just while they were staying at Zuko's beach house.

Zevox

Toph's main problem with sand seemed to me less ''I don't know how to bend it'' and more ''I can't friking see''

[littlekKID]

I recall there being a full moon during the Southern Raiders episode. If memory serves it was visible in a short scene where they rode Appa, right before they found the Southern Raiders.

Rule number 1 of Avatar world: unless there's a reason in the plot-there's ALWAYS a full moon

[Reverent-One]

Zuko was winning a fight; that means that he was better at fighting under the circumstances (which favoured him), NOT that he was a better bender.

A counter-example: the earthbender in Zuko Alone was winning a fight against Zuko, and the circumstances favoured the earthbender. Does that make him a better bender? No, just a better fighter under the circumstances.

We don't know how well the earthbender would have fared to the end, if Zuko hadn't surprised him with "a dirty trick". I hope people won't start arguing about the possible power level of the nameless earthbender. :P ;)

What circumstances in the fight favored Zuko? It was a straight bender v bender fight. Azula's mental problems? Nothing we've seen indiciates those really hindering her bending capabilities, she even used lightning.

And your counter-example is horrible, because the whole time Zuko was losing, he wasn't bending. Bit hard to use a period of time to judge a person's skill in something they don't do in said time period.

[Yulian]

What circumstances in the fight favored Zuko? It was a straight bender v bender fight. Azula's mental problems? Nothing we've seen indiciates those really hindering her bending capabilities, she even used lightning.


You can have a high skill level and stupid decisions will really kill your ability to win.

Shooting again - you can be a simply frighteningly good shot, but if you lose focus in a gun battle, flip your rifle to full auto, hold it at your hip and spray away, that's not usually a good decision. Your innate level of skill hasn't changed, but your poor decision will hamper your effectiveness.

In the final battle, Azula pretty much just fired huge blasts of flame at Zuko for the start of it. No unusual shapes, no arcs curling around his defenses, she just tried to plow straight ahead which, as we saw, is apparently pretty straightforward to defend against. I watched it again on Youtube and the overwhelming impression I still get from her expression, her breathlessness in certain parts, is that she just isn't thinking straight. Without that, all the raw power in the world won't help that much.

I think the basic problem here is defining what we're trying to get at when we say "bending prowess". Is it subtlety? Amount of element produced/moved? Azula makes blue flames. She is the only one to do so. Does that make her stronger than Iroh? Clearly not. The thing, to me, is that the show makes it clear that bending is almost inseparable from the physical movements and disciplines (including breathing, stance, and so on) used. We've seen over and over again that binding or nerve striking a bender is normally enough to shut them down. No movement, no bending.

A powerful and skilled bender thus must be a good fighter almost by definition, because otherwise, they couldn't master the movements and techniques to become so powerful. My opinion is that it's far too closely related to be easily prised apart. An accomplished waterbender can cut steel with water. Applying that to a living target would be highly lethal, regardless of any other factors. If said waterbender used that technique in a fight, they could slice a human being apart. Whether they have the instinct to go for it is another matter entirely, of course, but that's application of technique, not skill with technique.

So what do we really mean? Mass of element? Complexity of technique? Ability to use it efficiently in a fight? Azula showed hotter flames, more complex shapes, and techniques (like propulsion) that Zuko never did. I cannot see any way, even in the last fight, that he was better than her in terms of technique. He was thinking more clearly than she was, but then we get into muddled territory because just winning isn't enough. Ty Lee beat benders in fights and she can't even bend. Zuko could easily have been doing better than usual because his sister was not thinking tactically, or at least not up to her usual standards.

- Yulian

[John Cribati]

Bending is only as strong as what you do with it.

Azula's powerful firebending was in part due to her technique. I've hardly ever seen her throw an actual punch of fire up until her mental breakdown. Before than, she used a two-fingered technique that's the same sort of stance that's normally used for shooting lightning. Her entire style was about precision, finesse, and accuracy over raw power. If she needed power, she'd go for a huge acrobatic kick of some sort (acrobatics is a free action or something).

Now, take Aang: He has, according to Jeong Jeong, tons of raw power, plus a sort of Schrodinger-Fu thing, because (A) Nobody's fought an Airbender in 100 years or so, and (B) He has four styles of Bending to choose from (C) If he's losing too badly, there's a chance he'll go glowy and wipe you and everything in a twenty mile radius off the face of the earth. Even though he has those advantages, he's lost several fights, including one against a non-bender (Jet). He's certainly powerful in the most literal sense, but he lacked (and might still lack) finesse in any bending style other than Air.

Now Take Iroh. He has tons of Power, and he's one of two people who have taken out Azula without a direct bending attack. Sure, both of those were "Sneak Attacks," but Azula's has only lost two straight bending battles before, both of which used unorthodox means (Katara with chains and Aang on the drill)

As to the Azula/Zuko fight: won by doing something unexpected, whether you want to call it cheating or not. If the battle ended with Zuko dead on the floor and Katara with a hole in her head, anyone who called her out for breaking the honor code would be promptly electrocuted, and she'd say something like "Anyone else want to question my victory?" except in a much more Magnificent Bastard-like way. It's only because she was chained to a sewer grate that Zuko "won." Furthemore, Azula showed that even with both feet in the threshold of insanity, that her mind still has some sharpness.

[Reverent-One]

Very well, I can agree that with her mental issues, Azula was below her previous fighting level, and that contributed to Zuko being the better figher at time of their Agni-Kai, though I do think his own advancement was a factor as well.

[Xondoure]

Why can't the Azula fans come to terms with the fact that the point of the entire freaking section of the story was to prove Zuko's final progression and victory over his conflicted past, with Katara getting in the way because the writers couldn't stand not shipping them until the very last moment? DISCLAIMER: my slightly snotty personal opinion.

[endoperez]

The thing, to me, is that the show makes it clear that bending is almost inseparable from the physical movements and disciplines (including breathing, stance, and so on) used. We've seen over and over again that binding or nerve striking a bender is normally enough to shut them down. No movement, no bending.

A powerful and skilled bender thus must be a good fighter almost by definition, because otherwise, they couldn't master the movements and techniques to become so powerful.

:smalleek:
Are you serious?


Most kung fu these days is wushu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxL7MuFMOFI). It's, basically, acrobatics with a [weapon of choice]. Learning acrobatic doesn't teach you fighting. Wushu does teach you the physical movements, the stances etc, and it does give you power. However, it doesn't usually cover fighting tactics, sparring, punch training etc to a level where it would be useful in an actual fight.

[Sholos]

:smalleek:
Are you serious?


Most kung fu these days is wushu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxL7MuFMOFI). It's, basically, acrobatics with a [weapon of choice]. Learning acrobatic doesn't teach you fighting. Wushu does teach you the physical movements, the stances etc, and it does give you power. However, it doesn't usually cover fighting tactics, sparring, punch training etc to a level where it would be useful in an actual fight.

Then it's a good thing that the forms and such that they learn in the Avatar-verse aren't what's being taught today, isn't it? So, yes, I'd hazard a guess that he was serious, especially as the show itself makes it a point that formal training is extremely important in gaining any decent level of prowess.

[John Cribati]

Wushu... doesn't usually cover fighting tactics.

Well, by your definition, bending is not wushu. The four styles (Northern Shaolin for Fire, Tai Chi for Water, Hung Gar for Earth (Southern Mantis for Toph), Ba Gua for Air) are actively concerned with tactics Total Defense for Earth, Total Offense for Fire, etc. Furthermore, Iroh has at least once used a "waterbending" move physically to disarm someone without bending, so you could say that the styles in Bending, even when not used to manipulate an element, are practical for self defense

[endoperez]

Then it's a good thing that the forms and such that they learn in the Avatar-verse aren't what's being taught today, isn't it? So, yes, I'd hazard a guess that he was serious, especially as the show itself makes it a point that formal training is extremely important in gaining any decent level of prowess.

I wasn't arguing that the real-world performers were doing the same forms. I was saying they're able to become fine athletes practicing their forms to perfection, while not being able to fight. Because form training is form training, basic rules (such as "form training alone isn't enough") will be true in Avatar's universe too.

Besides, while it isn't always the case, sometimes the forms performed in competitions are pretty close to things we saw in the show... Bagua (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OemeJzud1LA) (airbending) is all about circles, just like airbending, although airbending wasn't used much in actual fighting. Taichi (waterbending) is often performed much slower than in the show, but here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBIJxJzu_L8#t=2m40s)it's easy to see the resemblance.

edit:

Well, by your definition, bending is not wushu. The four styles (Northern Shaolin for Fire, Tai Chi for Water, Hung Gar for Earth (Southern Mantis for Toph), Ba Gua for Air) are actively concerned with tactics Total Defense for Earth, Total Offense for Fire, etc. Furthermore, Iroh has at least once used a "waterbending" move physically to disarm someone without bending, so you could say that the styles in Bending, even when not used to manipulate an element, are practical for self defense

I know the styles. It's the Tiger and Crane form of the Hung Gar, specifically, since you seem to want to be pedantic.
What you're talking about isn't the tactic, but the main philosophy of the arts. It isn't "total offense" or "total defense". Taiji philosophy and fighting concepts are about overcoming great force with small force, through redirection. This concept appears in pretty much every fighting style that includes grappling, which includes Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin.

You say that bending without the magic works as a martial art. I say that's the actual martial art shown without bending. When Iroh performs what you call "waterbending" (are you referring to the fight in the ship in s2e1 "The Avatar State"?), I presume his movements are based on the philosophy and moves of Northern Shaolin. Azula does pretty well against Zuko without bending, during the same sequence, and I doubt she'd have studied waterbending anywhere...

[Yulian]

Very well, I can agree that with her mental issues, Azula was below her previous fighting level, and that contributed to Zuko being the better figher at time of their Agni-Kai, though I do think his own advancement was a factor as well.

I agree that that is more than likely why he lasted a lot longer in that last Agni Kai than any other time he fought her.

He was better, and she was impaired.


Why can't the Azula fans come to terms with the fact that the point of the entire freaking section of the story was to prove Zuko's final progression and victory over his conflicted past, with Katara getting in the way because the writers couldn't stand not shipping them until the very last moment? DISCLAIMER: my slightly snotty personal opinion.

I really don't understand any of this "shipping" stuff. The show was pretty clear about the relationships. Zuko and Mai, Aang and (a more reluctant) Katara. It's right there in the show. What else is there to go on if not that? The writers are the people who sketched that all out. What are people seeing here that I'm not aside from wishful thinking?

Honestly, I also like Zuko as a character better than his sociopathic sister, but the fact remains, she won every fight they had, including the last one. Method may vary, but Zuko still wasn't clearly beating her even when she was nuts.


Then it's a good thing that the forms and such that they learn in the Avatar-verse aren't what's being taught today, isn't it? So, yes, I'd hazard a guess that he was serious, especially as the show itself makes it a point that formal training is extremely important in gaining any decent level of prowess.

Pretty much. The show is very clear that people get taught utilitarian uses for bending almost without exception. I can't remember any scene where someone is being shown a form without an implicit or explicit actual use. No "busy work" for benders, it seems. Learn it to use it seems to be the order of the day. If you're a box-lifter in Omashu, then you may or may not know more than that, but anyone we saw being taught a combat-usable form was almost invariably later shown using it in a fight.

I think that we must recognize some distance between bending and real-world martial disciplines, because benders actually have to make the elements respond. I would imagine that just aping the proper motions isn't enough. Iroh spoke to Zuko about channeling energy through the right place or the lightning redirection would kill the user. The creators talked about the mindset for firebending being important.

There is obviously some synergy in the motions, stances, breathing, and (for lack of a better term) "chi flow" or benders could bend accidentally, and we never saw that. Someone can accidentally flail their arms and hit someone, but we never saw any bender accidentally throw their hand out and hurl a mass of earth. They might do it in a panic or lose control, but there seems to be some necessary element of intent that must be engaged. Back to shooting analogies; if my finger is never on the trigger, I cannot fire a pistol. But if it is, I've created that intent, regardless of my control over the shot.

- Yulian

[endoperez]

Pretty much. The show is very clear that people get taught utilitarian uses for bending almost without exception. I can't remember any scene where someone is being shown a form without an implicit or explicit actual use. No "busy work" for benders, it seems. Learn it to use it seems to be the order of the day. If you're a box-lifter in Omashu, then you may or may not know more than that, but anyone we saw being taught a combat-usable form was almost invariably later shown using it in a fight.

...but box-lifting is a combat form. Just push it against an enemy, and he's dead.

It's just like the movements in forms, they all have combat applications. That's why they are in the form (well, some forms also have moves for conditioning or smthng). Yes, in wushu forms as well. Wushu guys know combat applications. No, that doesn't mean they can fight. I know about jabs and straight punches, I can't use them in practice. I haven't trained them. Same thing with wushu, and in bending, they know that, say, Cloud Hands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cB3EkJa5BQ) can be used to block, but they can't do it in practice. The earthbenders know how to move boxes, they haven't tried hitting a moving human.


I think that we must recognize some distance between bending and real-world martial disciplines, because benders actually have to make the elements respond. I would imagine that just aping the proper motions isn't enough. Iroh spoke to Zuko about channeling energy through the right place or the lightning redirection would kill the user. The creators talked about the mindset for firebending being important.

Here, you could have a point. Bending does need the mindset: Zuko's bending and his rage were connected. Zuko was a technically skilled firebender even when he had his troubles in The Firebending Masters, when his firebending became much weaker. He didn't have a source to draw the fire from.
If the source is anger, as it is in firebending, then the bender would tend to get into fights and learn to fight. We don't know if it's the only source, but in Bitter Work, Iroh tells that lightning isn't "powered by rage or emotion the way other firebending is" - that might imply it's the most important one.

However, even if combat skills and firebending would now come from the same source, they could still be separate. Both the levels of firebending talent and rage vary. People with more rage and less talent would be better at combat tactics and worse at bending. Zuko was like that. When Zuko fought Zhao in s1e2, did he intentionally lure the Commander, clearly the better firebender, to over-extend?
edit: actually, rage and combat skill couldn't be connected since then Zhao should have been the more tactically skilled, but whatever... Zuko vs Zhao, Zuko the worse firebender, Zuko wins, what does this mean?


Someone can accidentally flail their arms and hit someone, but we never saw any bender accidentally throw their hand out and hurl a mass of earth.

Zuko in the first Kyoshi Warriors episode (WHAT! and the candles roar), Katara in the first episodes (the iceberg). I think you'd be better off arguing from the mindset angle.


EDIT: Hmm, I seem to remember I tried to move this thread back on-topic sometime... well, before this last argument. :smallredface: It might be too late now. Oh well, at least it has stayed mostly Avatar-related.

[Reverent-One]

I agree that that is more than likely why he lasted a lot longer in that last Agni Kai than any other time he fought her.

He was better, and she was impaired.

But then, Zuko has had his own cocktail of mental issues throughout the series, which definately impacted his abilty to fight (and prevented him from using lightning), and yet no one makes a big deal about Azula having that advantage over him in any of their eariler fights.


Honestly, I also like Zuko as a character better than his sociopathic sister, but the fact remains, she won every fight they had, including the last one. Method may vary, but Zuko still wasn't clearly beating her even when she was nuts.

She may have "won" the fight, but Zuko proved he was the better fighter at the time of the Agni-Kai and was clearly beating her. Even Azula realized this, hence the attack on Katara.

[VanBuren]

She may have "won" the fight, but Zuko proved he was the better fighter at the time of the Agni-Kai and was clearly beating her. Even Azula realized this, hence the attack on Katara.

Yeah, but she switched targets. That clearly proves her vastly superior skillset in both Firebending and general combat tactics, which are identical.

[Reverent-One]

Yeah, but she switched targets. That clearly proves her vastly superior skillset in both Firebending and general combat tactics, which are identical.

...

I actually thought you were serious for a minute, though given your previous posts in this thread, I believe that is sarcasm, yes?

[VanBuren]

...

I actually thought you were serious for a minute, though given your previous posts in this thread, I believe that is sarcasm, yes?

Yessir, that is correct.

I think it's silly, really. Putting aside the debate on whether Firebending is a separate discipline from general combat tactics ("Flanking" and "ambushing" are combat tactics, but have nothing to do with Firebending), it's not as though she used any complicated tactic.

All she did was change her target.