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ZiggZagg
2010-08-27, 07:10 PM
Alright, so I have been getting back into playing Bioshock 2, and it really makes me want to try and D&D campaign with similar tones. So, I'm looking for input on how to turn a D&D 3.5 campaign into a trip through the world of Bioshock. Mainly, I need to think of a way to handle the Plasmids and Eve consumption. The Gene Tonics could be turned into magic items or even feats easily enough. For the Plasmids and stuff, I was thinking of trying to modify the Monster of Legacy template from Weapons of Legacy. Anyway, any thoughts or ideas are welcome!

Kiren
2010-08-27, 08:43 PM
Let me guess, you saw the trailer for Infinite and were inspired to replay.

ZiggZagg
2010-08-27, 08:46 PM
Nope, got access a big screen HD TV with HDMI and a high refresh rate and wanted to revisit the impressive visuals. It was, for lack of better words, VERY pretty :-p LoL

Kiren
2010-08-27, 08:57 PM
Nope, got access a big screen HD TV with HDMI and a high refresh rate and wanted to revisit the impressive visuals. It was, for lack of better words, VERY pretty :-p LoL

Indeed, 1080P?

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-27, 09:00 PM
You could try treating Gene Tonics as Magic Items and Plasmids as Reflavored Rods.

jiriku
2010-08-27, 09:04 PM
Plasmids = charged spell trigger item.
EVE = method of recharging said items.

Temotei
2010-08-27, 09:07 PM
That, or you could use psionics with faster-depleting power points (and less, probably), and a very reduced list of powers. Add in some relevant spells to the list and you have your plasmids in your character.

ZiggZagg
2010-08-27, 10:26 PM
Well, as I have been thinking about it (it being Plasmids in this case), I was thinking of making them Spell Like Abilities that are tied to a pool of points, and introducing Eve Hypos to regain them. They would have increasing power, though I'm still working on that (Thinking of just increasing them with different spells, such as the Incinerate tree, going from either Scorching Ray or Lesser Orb of Fire->Fireball->Firestorm.)

As for the presence of ADAM, I need to think of a way to work it in that it is through Eve, ADAM, and Plasmids that you gain these abilities, but that it has a drawback if overdone. I'm thinking of trying to work with the drug addiction, taint, and possibly sanity mechanics to get the desired effects. To make sure that you actually need the Plasmids to accomplish the amazing feats they are capable of, I will probably limit the PC's in their class choices. Make it that only through Plasmids, Gene Tonics, and Feat selection that you truly flesh out your character. The most extreme idea I have juggle is making them all choose either the Warrior or Expert generic classes, and then using the class AC bonus variant in place of actual armor. Any thoughts on what I have so far?

I appreciate the replies so far, but as you can see, I'm looking for something a little bit more extreme than just minor tweaks and substitutions. I want to make this as much like Rapture as possible without having to resort to a different game system. Ideally, I think Bioshock would play really well in a World of Darkness setting (and even found a nice YouTube video detailing this possibility), but the group I play with only knows D&D and isn't too keen on learning anything different.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-27, 11:27 PM
If you are making modifications that large, you may be better off overhauling the entire class system. You could make one class that gets a bonus feat progression and make new feats around the Four Progressions (And Gun use, for good measure.)

dgnslyr
2010-08-28, 12:28 AM
Don't forget to throw in Improvised Weapon Use progression. Those things are DEADLY.

ZiggZagg
2010-08-28, 01:03 PM
Well, getting away from the idea of classes now, because honestly I would like to try and do a slightly classless system. I'm still not sure how I'm going to handle the idea of different races. Anyone with ideas for the mechanics behind ADAM and it's addictive properties and the side effects it can have on a person?

DracoDei
2010-08-28, 02:19 PM
I concur that Psionics match more closely than arcane magic for Plasmids... for one thing they have "displays" rather than "components".

Other than that, it sounds like you are on a good track.

I would just drop the concept of Improvised Weapons all-together.... IE make them count as simple weapons and not give an attack penalty.

Big Daddies should definitely have natural armor.

Little Sisters will need statting out at some point since I think they are the major source of Adam... right?

ZiggZagg
2010-08-28, 07:46 PM
Yeah, I wasn't going to worry about improvised weapons. I will take a look at the Psionics and see if they more closely represent the plasmids I'm looking at. I haven't gotten around to statting anything out yet. This "project" is still in developmental stages. As for the Little Sisters, considering they are effectively invulnerable to harm, statting them out isn't a huge priority so much as determining how harvesting and saving them will work. That brings me back to the effects of ADAM again and how to emulate how ADAM changes one's DNA and the mental and physical side effects that you see in so many of the citizens of Rapture...still working on that part.

elpollo
2010-08-29, 02:00 PM
Are you set on using D&D as a base? I'd have thought something like BRP (spiced up with the combat from MRQ II) would have been a good fit.

ZiggZagg
2010-08-30, 08:21 AM
Forgive my ignorance, sir, but what are BRP and MRQ II?

As for D&D as a base, I regret that I am forced into such a position, but I at least need to try to keep D20. The group I play with only knows D&D and a bit of Pathfinder. Now, that has not stopped us from playing a Modern Setting Campaign with nothing but D&D rules and a bit from the D20 Modern SRD for the rules on firearms, so they are willing to go outside "the norm" for it. But, they refuse to learn another system. Otherwise, I would consider running this campaign in the World of Darkness rule set, as I found a nice video on YouTube that details how someone did just that, custom character sheet and everything, and it seems to work quite well.

DracoDei
2010-08-30, 10:57 AM
I found a nice video on YouTube that details how someone did just that, custom character sheet and everything, and it seems to work quite well.

Link please? (Especially since seeing how that was done might be very helpful for creating what you need.)

ZiggZagg
2010-08-30, 11:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSHfTTScbxs&feature=related

He has a few videos made that pertain to this particular topic. He seems to have done an amazing job. I have only seen the first video, and the video that was about how he designed the system, making the character sheet, and how he invented the personalities and voices he was using for the characters involved. Quite interesting.

DracoDei
2010-08-30, 11:31 AM
Well, maybe you could send him a PM on YouTube and ask for the full details? Maybe even offer to clean it up and post it here with a link to his YouTube channel and proper credit (would probably get him more viewers). Or course, if he has it posted somewhere already (such as a WoD fan-site), he could just give you that link.

elpollo
2010-08-30, 12:04 PM
Forgive my ignorance, sir, but what are BRP and MRQ II?

BRP is the Basic Roleplaying System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Role-Playing), perhaps best known as the system that Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu uses. MRQ II is the second edition of Mongoose Publishing's version of RuneQuest, Mongoose RuneQuest. It's a very similar system but has more interesting results in combat. I really like the two as the basic system is easy (roll under your skill level on a d100), but it's got a lot of options. It can also be very gritty.

ZiggZagg
2010-08-30, 02:19 PM
Interesting concepts. I shall look into them. Thank you :-D

Croverus
2010-08-30, 05:01 PM
BRP is the Basic Roleplaying System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Role-Playing), perhaps best known as the system that Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu uses. MRQ II is the second edition of Mongoose Publishing's version of RuneQuest, Mongoose RuneQuest. It's a very similar system but has more interesting results in combat. I really like the two as the basic system is easy (roll under your skill level on a d100), but it's got a lot of options. It can also be very gritty.

By roll under your skill on a d100, you mean like in Dark Heresy and Rouge Trader?

I'm very interested in a Bioshock style forum game.

Dashwood
2010-08-30, 08:59 PM
I suggest building off of something like "D20 Modern". It's built for firearms and magic.

As for a classless system, I agree wholeheartedly. Magic and stats should determine your character, and you should be able to trade between the two. Making stat points and spell points interchangeable (to an extent) would balance character design.

Biggest thing Bioshock did (And I'm sorry if I love the first one to death over the second) was atmosphere. If you're doing this game, not only do you need to set the scene for the players, but add a bit of psucological horror to the players. If this is a single module, build them right into your characters.

Most people do "Living" ganes now and not "Classic" so that probably won't happen.

Anyway, those are my suggestions.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-30, 10:52 PM
In fact, a sanity system might not be out of place.

DaragosKitsune
2010-08-31, 01:42 AM
What about something based off of the Taint and Depravity system from Heroes of Horror. Heck, making it so that every stage carries benefits would encourage splicing.

ZiggZagg
2010-08-31, 08:20 AM
I am currently trying to balance in my head how to do a D20 classless system. What I have so far is that I am thinking of introducing a Sanity mechanic. Maybe corruption and depravity as well. As for the Plasmids, I came up with the idea to make each one a skill. Not sure how this would work out, though. Trying to think of how to work that, but it seems like the best way to go, in a way. Can't have access to the skills until the first time you splice up with ADAM, then you can take any number of the Plasmid skills. After that, you have to spend more ADAM to upgrade them to make them more effective, turning them into their more powerful versions the more ADAM you dump into them, but also tying ADAM to sanity, almost in relation the Cthulu Mythos skill from the Call of Cthulu system subtracts from your maximum sanity. Any ideas on how that would work?

The_Admiral
2010-08-31, 08:26 AM
It already does exist

ZiggZagg
2010-08-31, 08:44 AM
What exists where?

The_Admiral
2010-08-31, 09:01 AM
a classless D20 system it is Mutants and Masterminds

ZiggZagg
2010-08-31, 09:06 AM
I know of Mutants and Masterminds, but from what I have seen of the system, it doesn't really lend to what I need. It's built for super heroes. This is going to be built for normal people stuck in an extraordinary situation. Not to mention I don't know how it could work for a suspense/horror campaign

elpollo
2010-08-31, 10:05 AM
By roll under your skill on a d100, you mean like in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader?

I'm very interested in a Bioshock style forum game.

I've not played either, but Wikipedia tells me that yes, it is very similar. There are a few differences (this being difference to what I've gained by a quick look over the "rules" section in the Warhammer 40k Roleplay article on Wikipedia), but here's a brief overview of how you work out whether you succeed at a task or not:

Mechanically, a character is primarily made up of Characteristics and Skills. Characteristics are the equivalent to D&D attributes, and are Strength, Constitution, Size, Intelligence, Power, Dexterity, Appearance, and (if you want) Education. These are rated from 1-18 for a normal human, although you can have things (or people enhanced with magic or what have you) with higher scores). If you are ever called to make a check against one of these you roll a d100 and have to equal or get lower than the Characteristic score multiplied by a number. You might have to roll under Strength x 1 (so if you have a strength of 9 you have a 9% chance of success) to break down a difficult door, for example, or Appearance x 10 to charm a woman in a bar into coming back home with you after playing a most excellent slap bass solo (so if you have an appearance of 10 you'll have a 99% chance of success [as there are various optional rules about whether you can automatically succeed or not when you've got 100%+ skill rating]).

Skills are rated from 0 to 100 (you can go over, depending on the level of grittiness), and to pass a roll you have to roll under or equal to the skill level. This can be modified, so you might have a -20 to your Shotgun skill if you're fighting in darkness (I'm sure there must be official rules for this but I can't remember off the top of my head), or you might be rolling at half your skill rating for a difficult action.

On top of this, you've also got critical successes/fumbles as options. Critical successes occur if you roll 01 (or more if you've got a higher skill value - the higher the value the larger the range for a critical success), and fumbles can occur at 96-100 (or at fewer values if you've got a high skill value).



What about something based off of the Taint and Depravity system from Heroes of Horror. Heck, making it so that every stage carries benefits would encourage splicing.

Actually, that's a very good idea, although I don't remember there being advantages to gaining Taint - I was under the impression you gained various disadvantages. The reason to splice is splicing. You can make yourself stronger, faster, change how you look, control people's minds, shoot fire out of your eyes (maybe)... there are plenty of reasons without needing other benefits. The Taint and loss of Sanity give reasons for people to not oversplice, or the risk becoming monsters, which is a feeling Bioshock never really captured (sure, the Splicers were all crazy and ugly, but Jack never had any problems from Splicing Up(TM). It's possible it just requires more Adam than he took to create problems, or maybe the effects take longer to manifest, but it would have been interesting to have to weigh the pros and cons of splicing).


I am currently trying to balance in my head how to do a D20 classless system. What I have so far is that I am thinking of introducing a Sanity mechanic. Maybe corruption and depravity as well. As for the Plasmids, I came up with the idea to make each one a skill. Not sure how this would work out, though. Trying to think of how to work that, but it seems like the best way to go, in a way. Can't have access to the skills until the first time you splice up with ADAM, then you can take any number of the Plasmid skills. After that, you have to spend more ADAM to upgrade them to make them more effective, turning them into their more powerful versions the more ADAM you dump into them, but also tying ADAM to sanity, almost in relation the Cthulu Mythos skill from the Call of Cthulu system subtracts from your maximum sanity. Any ideas on how that would work?

The problem that I see with D20 as any sort of horror system is that gaining levels makes a lot of things trivial, and therefore kinda takes the horror out. I'm not saying that you can't do horror with D20, but it seems that at first level when the party's struggling against a group of splicers the game has a very different feel to when you're five levels in and can take on that same party of splicers single handed.

Also, with powers as skills you risk having people optimising skills to the point where you can hit stupidly high DCs regularly, meaning you get incredible effects. I suppose a lot of this is mitigated by not having magic in a setting, though.

I was going to comment on the fact that a lot of "useless" plasmids would be useless in this sort of system, but they actually work with it. People without the boost (read skill ranks and possibly focus) to apply these to combat would only be able to light cigarettes/lift forks/turn on electrical devices rather than set people on fire, fling them across the room then char the remains with lightning.


edit - also, a quick search revealed this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59837&), which might be something to build on.

DaragosKitsune
2010-08-31, 11:27 AM
The Taint and loss of Sanity give reasons for people to not oversplice, or the risk becoming monsters, which is a feeling Bioshock never really captured (sure, the Splicers were all crazy and ugly, but Jack never had any problems from Splicing Up(TM). It's possible it just requires more Adam than he took to create problems, or maybe the effects take longer to manifest, but it would have been interesting to have to weigh the pros and cons of splicing).
[/i]

There is the chance that Jack didn't get enough exposure to be changed (mainly because he only spliced himself with useful plasmids/tonics as opposed to the aesthetic ones the citizens of Rapture almost certainly used) but remember that the bad ending has him becoming an ADAM addict during the fight with Fontaine. Heck, Fontaine got addicted after his first splice.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-31, 05:57 PM
To be fair, Fontaine injected a LOT of it. It's like smoking 135 packs of Cigars a day. That wasn't a typo. PACKS OF CIGARS.

DaragosKitsune
2010-08-31, 08:49 PM
Yeah, but that worked out for him physically, if only for a little while. It did drive him crazy and make him dependent on continual injections though (as evidenced by his repeated teleportation back to his injection bed).

ZiggZagg
2010-08-31, 09:29 PM
Realistically, I don't think basing the addiction off Jack is fair. I think the reason he didn't get addicted to all the **** you jacked him up with (no pun intended) was because the game wasn't meant to deal with it. But yeah, as for the possibility of people optimizing the skills, there will be no magic in this campaign. No wizards, no magic items, everything will be based on ADAM. So that should help mitigate that a bit.
The Taint system is designed to be a drawback, but as you gain taint, there are a certain number of benefits, such as applying for tainted feats, and when you hit a new taint threshold, you get a bonus feat. The drawbacks are sort of the cost of power.
There's a lot of good ideas floating here so far. I think if we keep brainstorming, things are going to start falling into place. I'm off to work to continue with the idea. Good night, all!

devinkowalczyk
2010-09-01, 12:20 AM
I think a good definition is if you want the feel of it
feel: Under the sea, insane people, darkness, not really sure what is going on, haunted

or the action
plasmids, atom, big daddies, upgradeable weapons


I personally love the feel of it and like a good under sea maze. it can be easily done with good descriptions of the corroded metal, the water outside. leaks, damage, and the insane behavior of those you come across (insane behaviors that have left marks like writing on the walls or chewed on bodies)

ZiggZagg
2010-09-01, 09:34 AM
Ok, so I have been thinking about the removal of the class system. What do you guys think?

Option 1: Give players 3x normal hitpoints at level 1. They have either defense archetype or offensive, giving 6 or 8 hitpoints, respectively. Still working out these archetypes, but after this, no real experience is gained.

Option 2: The other option is go with the injury system from Unearthed Arcana. Same idea, no XP gained.

Upgrades to hitpoints or saves or abilities and such go up only through ADAM expenditure. As for feats, trying to figure that out, but I will find a way. Probably just make them genetonics.

So, anyone think either of these options will work?

elpollo
2010-09-03, 09:40 AM
Any progress since the last post?

Would you be basically removing the levelling up aspect of D20, then? Is levelling up now done by Adam instead (here's a link to Big Eyes, Small Mouth SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/animesrd.html) where it has costs for buying certain abilities that might be helpful if you're using Adam as a Character Point type advancement system. Using this method you can do a sort of "Every 10 Adam gained you advance a level, you can spend Adam on abilities (costs given in the BESM SRD), you can only have a number of ranks in an ability equal to half your level or something" type thing. Feats costs 2 CP each, so people can buy Feats as gene tonics, or buy powers/increases to their BAB/defence bonus/extra arms or whatever)?


Also, important news! I totally linked you to the wrong thing when I mention the BRP. I should have linked this (http://www.chaosium.com/forms/coc_quick_start_color.pdf), a Call of Cthulhu quickstart which should give a better idea of how the whole thing works if you're interested.

ZiggZagg
2010-09-03, 02:24 PM
Well, I have done some work on the Plasmids and decided to use the injury system. I am pulling the two "classes" from Call of Cthulu, Offensive and Defensive, but they won't gain any levels, so they just get the first level benefits. Still working on everything though. Thanks for the links. I will post an update next week when I compile all my information, as I have it all saved on my H:\ at work at the moment.

ZiggZagg
2010-09-15, 09:36 AM
Alright, so it's been a little bit since I worked on this. Just an update and looking for a little more advice. So I have decided to use the Insanity system to respresent the effects of ADAM on the human body. When you Splice up for the first time. Insanity test damage 0/1d6, so you have the possibility of it not affecting you. However, you also have to make a fortitude save. If you fail the save (haven't decided on a DC yet), then you become addicted. I'm still working out the levels of addiction, but a low addiction you only need to get your "fix" every week or so, so only 1 save a week. If you succeed, nothing bad. If you fail, Con and Wis damage. If you succeed so many in a row, you break your addiction, like standard drug rules. The more you fail, and the more you use, the worse addiction becomes, and you need to make saves more often. Does that sound like it will work?

And as for Plasmids, Gene Tonics, and the like, how should I go about letting the players acquire them? I really have to read back into the story of Bioshock, because I'm a little hazy, but I don't think the citizens actually shot up raw ADAM to splice up. They were injecting the gene tonics and plasmids. Anyone have any insight into this while I continue to do my research, or should I just go with the same idea the game had and they splice up with Raw ADAM, and then "spend it" somehow, maybe even at the Gatherer's Garden station or something.

Other than that, just solidifying everything. Have a couple of plasmids figured out. I have decided to try a model where the DC's and damage are static, rather than scaling. This is countered by the fact that the player's don't level up. I am going to work out a way that they purchase their "upgrades" through ADAM, so they can improve their abilities with save bonuses, feats, and what not. Probably make them into Gene Tonics.

Any thoughts or concerns so far?

DracoDei
2010-09-15, 09:02 PM
Having a spliced person recharge their "juice" at a rate that would work out to a full refill every 3 days or maybe as little as every day would work... the hero in the game was probably in a bit too much of a hurry for that to work at any point in the story-line, and if you are just lighting your cigars with the fire plasmid and other non-combat stuff, that would probably be more than enough that you would never need to inject anything.

Note that I have never actually played the games.

elpollo
2010-09-19, 05:49 AM
Link ahoy! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox360/931329-bioshock/faqs/50049)

Here be another. (http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Plasmid)

First off, this has a lot of speculation in it, and there may be sources contradicting my ideas. Some of the sources may be from the games, however, where things are skewed to make them more playable.

Gene tonics and plasmids are made from Adam. In the game the Adam found is taken to a Gatherer's Garden or whatever then genetically modified to create the required plasmid/tonic, so the "buying" of a tonic is really the tonic being created from the Adam you possess. Realistically there should be a monetary cost as well, as the Fontaine/Ryan have to make money, and I can see Fontaine charging the wealthy as much as he can for splicing up.

Splicing with raw Adam accelerates your healing, but it doesn't give you Plasmids. I imagine surgeons used raw (or close to raw) Adam for their cosmetic surgery, so I can see raw Adam being used far more often than modified Adam, as there's more call for looking prettier than setting someone on fire (plus see that the majority of splicers don't have plasmids in game).

Before the Little Sisters came along it would be much more expensive to splice. The first link I provided says that they produced 20-30 times the Adam that a lone slug could make, so this is probably the point where Gatherer's Gardens came into play, as it becomes more viable to keep Adam reserves in the machines (before hand when Adam was a lot more limited I imagine most plasmids and the Adam would be kept in Fontaine Futuristics buildings where it was heavily guarded, or in secure rooms at hospitals or whatever). Obviously people would still want the Adam, as it's valuable, so people would try breaking open the Gatherer's Garden to get the Adam inside. There needs to be a way to stop this. There are turrets and security bots, sure, but when you're spliced up you can deal with that sort of thing. We can assume that each Gatherer's Garden has its Adam modified to make it identifiable to one particular machine (some sort of genetic code is put in). A machine can only use its own Adam to make things - this stops people from looting one machine and using it in another. If that does happen the machine happily whirrs and hums, making the thieves think that they are getting a plasmid, whilst the police and security bots are called.

This doesn't stop the machines from being looted, but it should greatly reduce the number of people who try. This also gives Fontaine a way to appear the victim - he hires some people from the slums to loot a machine, which he has insured. The looters give most of the Adam to Fontaine (indirectly), but keep a small proportion of the Adam, in exchange for the codes to deactivate the security alarms on the machine. They loot a few machines, give Fontaine the Adam (which he knows how to remove the ID coding from), and sends the looters off to spend the Adam, knowing that they will get caught. They promptly do, they say "Oh, someone told us the codes", Fontaine has an investigation and finds the "culprit". The culprit and the looters are imprisoned, Fontaine keeps the Adam, gets the insurance money, and gets to show people that looting his machines is a bad idea.



Alright, so it's been a little bit since I worked on this. Just an update and looking for a little more advice. So I have decided to use the Insanity system to respresent the effects of ADAM on the human body. When you Splice up for the first time. Insanity test damage 0/1d6, so you have the possibility of it not affecting you. However, you also have to make a fortitude save. If you fail the save (haven't decided on a DC yet), then you become addicted. I'm still working out the levels of addiction, but a low addiction you only need to get your "fix" every week or so, so only 1 save a week. If you succeed, nothing bad. If you fail, Con and Wis damage. If you succeed so many in a row, you break your addiction, like standard drug rules. The more you fail, and the more you use, the worse addiction becomes, and you need to make saves more often. Does that sound like it will work?

Honestly that's probably a little fast. I'd do things this way:

Each plasmid/gene tonic has a "Degeneration Value" for a lack of a better phrase. This might be 1 for simple surgery, 2 for a level 1 plasmid, 4 for a level 2, etc. As you use Adam you tally up the total score (a "Degeneration Score", if you will). The higher the score the faster your skin starts to run and your mind starts to go. If you're within the 1-10 range then maybe it takes a month or two for ill effects to be felt. As they are you require surgery to fix your face or whatever, meaning your score goes up (does anybody tell anyone else that their face is melting? Of course not. It's a "Never before seen side effect", and the rich people who will be amongst the first to start aren't going to want to embarress or alienate themselves). As you get in the 11-20 range it might only take 3-4 weeks before you need more surgery, and it'll add 2 or 3 points to your score if you wait longer as it's getting worse. 21-30 it might only take a week or two, 31-40 less than a week, etc. I'd also cap a person's maximum sanity at 99-[Degeneration Score], so someone who's spliced a lot has a lower maximum sanity than someone who doesn't.

I don't know if I'd include Sanity checks when you actually splice up. The effects on your sanity come after, as the Adam in your head starts to reproduce unstable cells and your face starts to melt. In my proposed system I'd perhaps call for a sanity check after the same period of time has passed that means your face would start to run (so if you're in the 11-20 Degeneration Score range you have to make a San check every 3-4 weeks.

These values are all pretty arbitrary, and I'll try and think up some specific effects for d20.



And as for Plasmids, Gene Tonics, and the like, how should I go about letting the players acquire them? I really have to read back into the story of Bioshock, because I'm a little hazy, but I don't think the citizens actually shot up raw ADAM to splice up. They were injecting the gene tonics and plasmids. Anyone have any insight into this while I continue to do my research, or should I just go with the same idea the game had and they splice up with Raw ADAM, and then "spend it" somehow, maybe even at the Gatherer's Garden station or something.

Hopefully my block of text at the start and the links will provide some help for this. I'd say let them find stuff like in the game. They can find some Adam to spend. They can find tonics to use. Both are appropriate, but remember: Adam can be split amongst a group, whilst a tonic can't. It also makes more sense for raw Adam to be found, as if you've had a tonic made, why haven't you used it (obviously there are reasons, but I'd imagine raw Adam would be more common [although still fairly uncommon]).




Other than that, just solidifying everything. Have a couple of plasmids figured out. I have decided to try a model where the DC's and damage are static, rather than scaling. This is countered by the fact that the player's don't level up. I am going to work out a way that they purchase their "upgrades" through ADAM, so they can improve their abilities with save bonuses, feats, and what not. Probably make them into Gene Tonics.

I'd be interested in reading through what you've got when you're done.

ZiggZagg
2010-09-19, 08:39 AM
That is by the best post so far, and I GREATLY appreciate it. I will post the plasmids I have up here sometime soon. Can't right now as I'm at home and all the information is at work on the computer there. Anyway, thanks for all the help. Forgive me for asking a question that might be answered in one of your links, as I have yet to look at them yet, but what is your take on the gene tonics and how they are able to be "equipped"? The idea that you harvest the adam and then use it to manufacture the upgrades you get at the Gatherer's Garden is great, but that is one part I'm still sketchy on. If you splice up with a Gene Tonic, how can you unequip it to make room for another (assuming I put a limit on them), or to swap it with someone else?

ZiggZagg
2010-09-19, 08:54 AM
Also, what I'm looking at is kinda using the system from Mutants & Masterminds, and blending it with a bastardization of the Call of Cthulu. What I mean is, the players will use ADAM to buy their tonics and plasmids and such, but I'm going to give them small amounts of XP, and with it, they will buy their attack bonuses and skill points and such. Now I can't port it directly over, as I'm removing alot of what needs to be bought, but the premise is there. I will probably just jack up the cost of everything or just be REAL picky of how much XP everyone gets. Still a work in progress, but it is all starting to come together.

As for ADAM, the degeneration factor is definitely a fascinating way to go about it. Now do you propose that be used as a penalty to their Sanity score, much like the Cthulu Mythos skill does? Because I have been looking for an idea like that, and that sounds phenomenal. I think I'm still going to have them making Fortitude saves whenever they Splice up to resist addiction, and maybe even hold the degeneration at bay, as it seemed to me that there were some who could take it better than others. Anyway, great stuff, there, Elpollo. I really appreciate your assistance

elpollo
2010-09-19, 04:08 PM
That is by the best post so far, and I GREATLY appreciate it. I will post the plasmids I have up here sometime soon. Can't right now as I'm at home and all the information is at work on the computer there. Anyway, thanks for all the help. Forgive me for asking a question that might be answered in one of your links, as I have yet to look at them yet, but what is your take on the gene tonics and how they are able to be "equipped"? The idea that you harvest the adam and then use it to manufacture the upgrades you get at the Gatherer's Garden is great, but that is one part I'm still sketchy on. If you splice up with a Gene Tonic, how can you unequip it to make room for another (assuming I put a limit on them), or to swap it with someone else?

That's an interesting question, and one I'm not entirely sure of the answer to. From the video game standpoint it made sense to have a limited number of tonic slots since you had to choose between them and could also eventually become more powerful as you gain more slots. Switching slots also meant that you could try out new toys without thinking you'd made the wrong mistake.

Translating this into a "realistic" viewpoint is tricky. I'm not a biologist, and my knowledge of this whole area is pretty lacking (and what little knowledge I have is probably Hollywood Science anyway), so if someone with appropriate knowledge could weigh in here that would be helpful.

You could put a hard limit like "You can only have X Gene Tonic slots", which is certainly a viable and easy way to do it, and simply explain it by there only being so much DNA you can add to/alter before you stop growing limbs. You could have slots for different body parts (maybe 1 head slot, 2 or 3 torso slots, 1 legs slot and 1 arms slot), and say that each body part can only have so much rewriting done to it before it flips out (and perhaps allow a torso tonic to grant an additional slot elsewhere). You could let people splice up with as many tonics as they want and simply have the degeneration be a barrier to stop them from having everything available.

I'm not entirely sure which I'd go for, and it's not something I'd actually considered before. In a d20 system I'd probably favour the second (slots for different body parts), as if you allow saves to avoid degeneration and stuff then it might be possible to boost your saves to the point where you can tonic up into godhood without penalties.

Rewriting tonics is easy - stick another tonic in your arm and bamf! Old one gone, new one in its place. Storing them has a few options. You could not do it and simply have it that as soon as you write over an old tonic it's gone for good (unless you obtain another copy). You could have it that you can remove it at a gene bank and it can then be used by someone else, but if this is the case then why are there little sisters wandering around when the bodies could just be carted off to a gene bank? I suspect the reason is that the gene bank stores a copy of your DNA, which already has been altered by the Adam, and isolates the specific part you want. Since the tonic has already been integrated into your DNA the hard part is done, so with the application of a much smaller amount of Adam than it would take to create the tonic again and the sample of the DNA with the tonic in from the Gene Bank you can copy it back into your body (so yeah, handwavium abound). I think you should have to pay some Adam to switch tonics, partly due to Adam being the answer to the question "How does that work?", and partly because splicing should always have a price.



Also, what I'm looking at is kinda using the system from Mutants & Masterminds, and blending it with a bastardization of the Call of Cthulu. What I mean is, the players will use ADAM to buy their tonics and plasmids and such, but I'm going to give them small amounts of XP, and with it, they will buy their attack bonuses and skill points and such. Now I can't port it directly over, as I'm removing alot of what needs to be bought, but the premise is there. I will probably just jack up the cost of everything or just be REAL picky of how much XP everyone gets. Still a work in progress, but it is all starting to come together.

As for ADAM, the degeneration factor is definitely a fascinating way to go about it. Now do you propose that be used as a penalty to their Sanity score, much like the Cthulu Mythos skill does? Because I have been looking for an idea like that, and that sounds phenomenal. I think I'm still going to have them making Fortitude saves whenever they Splice up to resist addiction, and maybe even hold the degeneration at bay, as it seemed to me that there were some who could take it better than others. Anyway, great stuff, there, Elpollo. I really appreciate your assistance

Yeah, I think limiting sanity is the way to go. There certainly are people who deal with it better, but limiting sanity doesn't make you crazy - even having 50 "Degeneration Points" only limits your sanity to 50, which is, by the Call of Cthulhu book, about the sanity of the average investigator (3d6 x 5).

On resisting addiction: I'm not sure Adam actually causes withdrawal symptons. I can't recall any mention of it. People get addicted to splicing because they can become better and less face melty, so it's a psychological thing rather than physical. Will saves might be more apt to resisting addiction. Of course, this doesn't stop their face melting, so they are still going to want to go back to fix this despite a successful save (and thus the addiction is born! Mwahahaha!) If you mean Fortitude saves to stop the physical face melting symptons then remember that it might be possible to boost your Fortitude to a point where you're not really taking any penalties from having used a huge amount of Adam, which could lose a lot of the personal horror aspect that the video game doesn't convey incredibly well, but is a large aspect of the setting.

ZiggZagg
2010-09-19, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I'm a little worried about their ability to boost saves, but do keep in mind that since I am moving the setting to Rapture, there is no D&D Barbie Dress Up nonsense where they vie for the better gear. And by putting a cap on how high they are able to get their saves (because the human body has its limits), then I should be able to regulate it to the point that the danger is always there. Also dabbling with a way to impose penalties on certain saves regarding ADAM depending on how dependent (physically or psychologically) you are. You do bring up an excellent point about ADAM, and its "addictive" properties being more in the mind than the body. Definitely an avenue to explore. Once again, another brilliant post. Thanks for your continued assistance.

ZiggZagg
2010-09-25, 07:43 AM
Well, I ran the campaign for the first time a few days ago. The players said they really enjoyed it, so I guess I'm doing something right. They did succeed on a ridiculous number of fortitude saves, so I may have to keep an eye on that. I already told them that after watching the session go through, the Great Fortitude feat is removed. Granted, I didn't have much prepared, and I had no stats written down for the splicers that they faced, but I can get to that later. The important part is that what I have so far worked, and I owe a lot of that to everyone that has thrown their ideas my way. Thank you very much. I will post up some of the information, such as the plasmids and gene tonics, later so you can see the fruits of our labors :-p Thanks again everyone!

elpollo
2010-09-25, 12:50 PM
That's good to hear. When are you setting it?

ZiggZagg
2010-09-25, 12:59 PM
It is set in 1959, shortly after the fall, but before Jack shows up in 1960. The Bathysphere network has yet to be genetically locked down by then, so it didn't require a retcon. Since I kinda ran it before I was really ready to do so, I'm sure some of the information I gave the players was slightly misleading, but I can fix that next session. I created a new NPC for Rapture who has his own agenda, and has told the players he is planning to take Rapture back from the madness of Atlas and Ryan. I freaked the players out more than a couple times with the first Spider Splicer. I pretty much recreated the first hour or so of gameplay. My main issue at this point is remembering all the different areas of Rapture, where they were located in accordance with each other, what their purposes were, and all that. A lot of lore to try to memorize and keep track of, but my work seems to be paying off as we only played for like 4 hours, but the players had a lot of fun with it and have created some very interesting characters to play with. Gearing up to be very interesting indeed :-D

Lord of Bones
2011-01-02, 08:24 AM
Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I've noticed there's a link to one of my videos in it and if anybody is interested in discussing my Storyteller System take on the game then feel free to ask. Just as a reminder, here's the first of my videos on the subject:

Bioshock RPG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkZOqXNEkXM)

And there are many more that can be found through my channel.