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Talbot
2010-08-27, 07:14 PM
Is there a feat that increases the ranged from which a Rogue can sneak attack beyond 30ft?

Greenish
2010-08-27, 07:17 PM
Crossbow Sniper, PHBII.

Hawriel
2010-08-27, 07:59 PM
as said above. Ive seen feats in 3rd party books. I myself made a feat for a homebrew ranger that had sneak attack.

the requirments would be

point blank shot and precise shot.

Or make it a special rogue ability.

eather way I wouldnt go much beyond an aditional 30 feet.

gomipile
2010-08-27, 11:18 PM
There is also a spell from Complete Adventurer which lets you make one sneak attack at any range you can shoot from.

Edit: Sniper's Shot, level 1 Wiz/Sorc/Assassin spell, swift action to cast.

BobSutan
2010-08-28, 07:42 AM
I've always house-ruled that far shot extended Sneak Attack and Point Blank Shot out to 45'.

Zieu
2010-08-31, 11:58 PM
I've always house-ruled that far shot extended Sneak Attack and Point Blank Shot out to 45'.

I've used this too. It balances out pretty well for most campaigns.

Newbieshoes
2010-09-01, 12:31 AM
There is also a spell from Complete Adventurer which lets you make one sneak attack at any range you can shoot from.

Edit: Sniper's Shot, level 1 Wiz/Sorc/Assassin spell, swift action to cast.



This on a magic item is 8000 Gold for a continuous effect.

Jallorn
2010-09-01, 02:23 AM
It's a bit high on input, but the Spellwarp Sniper PRC allows you to get SA with rays out to 60 feet.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 06:49 AM
This on a magic item is 8000 Gold for a continuous effect.
No, it's really not. You're skipping the primary pricing rule (comparable similar items) and going right to the "otherwise" clause. Don't do that.

Jack Zander
2010-09-01, 07:56 AM
No, it's really not. You're skipping the primary pricing rule (comparable similar items) and going right to the "otherwise" clause. Don't do that.

So what should the price be then?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 08:44 AM
So what should the price be then?
Pretty high. It takes a feat with another feat as a prerequisite to merely give you an extra 30' of range, and with only one specific weapon type. Using the guidelines in Arms and Equipment Guide for the cost of an item granting a feat, something that granted Crossbow Sniper would be worth 15,000 - 20,000 gp. That's a tiny fraction of what you're asking for in a magic item.

There really aren't many ways to remove distance limits. One example is Distant Shot [Epic], which is normally not available before level 22. All Epic magic items cost more than 200,000 gp, so that's where I'd set the minimum cost of an item that removes all sneak attack distance limits.

Jack Zander
2010-09-01, 08:54 AM
Pretty high. It takes a feat with another feat as a prerequisite to merely give you an extra 30' of range, and with only one specific weapon type. Using the guidelines in Arms and Equipment Guide for the cost of an item granting a feat, something that granted Crossbow Sniper would be worth 15,000 - 20,000 gp. That's a tiny fraction of what you're asking for in a magic item.

There really aren't many ways to remove distance limits. One example is Distant Shot [Epic], which is normally not available before level 22. All Epic magic items cost more than 200,000 gp, so that's where I'd set the minimum cost of an item that removes all sneak attack distance limits.

Except Sniper's Shot isn't a feat, it's a level 1 spell.

Telonius
2010-09-01, 09:01 AM
Now I'm picturing a sniper team - Ranger with Distracting Attack, and Rogue with one of those items.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 09:19 AM
Except Sniper's Shot isn't a feat, it's a level 1 spell.
So? We were initially talking about a feat, and then, because such a feat doesn't exist, a magic item that would simulate such an Epic feat.

Person_Man
2010-09-01, 10:26 AM
FYI, ranged Sneak Attack is mechanically quite lousy. Rogues are very feat hungry, and ranged combat generally requires Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, and Greater Many Shot. It's a very low return on investment. To add another feat or two on top to get your range out to 60 ft doesn't really add much.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-01, 10:37 AM
This on a magic item is 8000 Gold for a continuous effect.

A use-activated item of True Strike at will is also 8000 gold...

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 10:53 AM
A use-activated item of True Strike at will is also 8000 gold...
It's worth pointing out that the spells supposedly justifying such awesomeness in bargain price items have limitations that would keep these items from working as desired. True Strike applies only to the next attack rather than the current one, and Sniper's Shot has effect only before the start of the next turn (independent of the spell's duration).

Jack Zander
2010-09-01, 11:15 AM
It's worth pointing out that the spells supposedly justifying such awesomeness in bargain price items have limitations that would keep these items from working as desired. True Strike applies only to the next attack rather than the current one, and Sniper's Shot has effect only before the start of the next turn (independent of the spell's duration).

Exactly, so what's wrong with the balance of this magic item? When the rogue needs to, he spends the required action to get a sneak attack on a dex-denied target within range.

Is sneak attacking within 100 feet game-breaking? Why is crossbow sniper such a lousy feat? Why can't we give the non-casters nice things in the form of magic items?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 12:13 PM
Exactly, so what's wrong with the balance of this magic item? When the rogue needs to, he spends the required action to get a sneak attack on a dex-denied target within range.
I don't get you here. The point of the item is to remove all range limits for sneak attack.

Boci
2010-09-01, 12:20 PM
I don't get you here. The point of the item is to remove all range limits for sneak attack.

I am pretty sure he means within range the ranged weapon the rogue is wielding. So that like 800ft with a light crossbow I think.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-01, 12:23 PM
It's worth pointing out that the spells supposedly justifying such awesomeness in bargain price items have limitations that would keep these items from working as desired. True Strike applies only to the next attack rather than the current one, and Sniper's Shot has effect only before the start of the next turn (independent of the spell's duration).

Except that limitation isn't actually a limitation at all. Use-activated items cost the same as continuous items, as in 'on-use' - i.e., effectively a free action. If you have bracers of use-activated True Strike with their trigger condition being "I am about to make an attack"...it's neverending True Strike. The same thing would go for a use-activated Sniper's Shot item - if its trigger condition is something as simple as 'about to make an attack', then it doesn't matter what the duration is, because it's near-continously refreshing itself.

A command-word item would be slightly more balanced, and cheaper to boot.

Akisa
2010-09-01, 12:28 PM
speaking of which, why does it take a standard action to say a command word? Could you speak the word as you attack? Also the item could be use activated but limited to certain amount like 3 times a day.

Greenish
2010-09-01, 12:39 PM
Could you speak the word as you attack?If you gained extra standard action from somewhere, sure. (It wouldn't technically be perfectly simultaneous due to how combat is handled in the game, but well.)
Also the item could be use activated but limited to certain amount like 3 times a day.Or a wand of Sniper's Shot (1,500 gp) in the wand chamber (100 gp) of the bow. Swift action to activate as of Rules Compendium, 50 charges. :smallamused:

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 12:40 PM
speaking of which, why does it take a standard action to say a command word? Could you speak the word as you attack?

More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. How fast can you say a common "nonsense" word like "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"? I'd say it takes a full 3 seconds (1 standard action) to say.

PId6
2010-09-01, 12:59 PM
FYI, ranged Sneak Attack is mechanically quite lousy. Rogues are very feat hungry, and ranged combat generally requires Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, and Greater Many Shot. It's a very low return on investment. To add another feat or two on top to get your range out to 60 ft doesn't really add much.
Why do you need Manyshot and Greater Manyshot? You're better off just full attacking every turn. It's not like you need to pull off skirmish.

Ranged Sneak Attack is bad unless you can support it. You need a reliable way to deny Dex to enemies (Ring of Blinking, Greater Invisibility, etc), and you need a lot of feats. However, you end up with greater safety, easier full attacks, better accuracy (thanks to Improved Precise Shot and/or Woodland Archer), and lots of extra attacks (Rapid Shot and Splitting). Splitting alone is a great reason to go ranged, since it pretty much doubles damage output.

Person_Man
2010-09-01, 02:41 PM
Why do you need Manyshot and Greater Manyshot? You're better off just full attacking every turn. It's not like you need to pull off skirmish.

On the first round of combat you'll generally need to move within 30 ft in order to trigger Sneak Attack. If you kill the front line of enemies, you'll often need to move in order to put the back line of enemies within 30 ft. And if an enemy moves up to you and attacks or otherwise puts you within his threatened range, you'll generally want to move 25ish feet away so that you can attack him without provoking AoO. So while you do not strictly need Greater Manyshot, most Rogue-ish builds will want it, unless they get access to Travel Devotion or Hustle or something similar.



Ranged Sneak Attack is bad unless you can support it. You need a reliable way to deny Dex to enemies (Ring of Blinking, Greater Invisibility, etc), and you need a lot of feats. However, you end up with greater safety, easier full attacks, better accuracy (thanks to Improved Precise Shot and/or Woodland Archer), and lots of extra attacks (Rapid Shot and Splitting). Splitting alone is a great reason to go ranged, since it pretty much doubles damage output.

Splitting (Champions of Ruin, IIRC) is definitely an amazing enhancement. If your DM allows it, then there's definitely a good reason to play an archer build of some type.

But keep in mind that via a variety of methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777), (such as 3 feats and a reach weapon, or 2 and a wand and a reach weapon) you can get 30 feet of reach. This offers the same protection of standing far away from your enemies that a ranged weapon does, plus you have an easier time flanking, and enemies moving through your threatened area provoke AoO.

So I'm more then willing to concede that certain Rogue-ish ranged builds with certain equipment is worth it. But for most of the Rogue-ish ranged builds I've seen waste a huge amount of feats for minimal return.