[3.5] You lose, no save, no SR, nuthin.

[fortesama]

I'm compiling a list of no save save-or-lose/suck spells to better prepare myself once i start DMing any future games. The spell list is huge and i need some help (and the local budding munchkin is, well, budding so i want a to prepare once he sees the more... interesting material). do mark if they're No SR spells to. Here's what I remember so far:

Solid Fog
Ray of enfeeblement
ray of exhaustion
ray of frost
Freezing Fog, sort of.
maw of chaos
shivering touch

hmmm... the conjuration and necromancy schools seem to be particularly bad about this
Forgive my english.

Edit: New Entries, oh and you can include psionics now. I saw mister budding munchkin looking through XPH a little bit ago.

Spells:

Ice Storm
power word: pain
The orb series
grease
web
stun ray (might be fun on a wand for a stungun)
Illusory pit
2 fear spells in a row
forcecage
a CL-pumped blasphemy/holy word/dictum/word of chaos
fleshiver
irresistable dance
Evard's Black Tentacles
Acid Fog
Cloudkill (offers a save, but you're screwed either way, so yeah, it counts)
Amber Sarcophagus
Gate, sort of (requires plane-shifting to somewhere interesting)
random offensive spell + fell drain feat (only fell drain offers no save)
Reverse Gravity (may require creativity)
The effects of environment-shaping spells such as wall of stone or Transmute Rock to Mud
Maze
Moonbolt (save for 1/2 but it's practically no save)
Mental Pinnacle's Ego Whip

i dunno about call avalanche though. don't have frostburn at the moment.

[Jornophelanthas]

I know Ice Storm. No save, no attack roll.
Does apply SR, though.

[Tyndmyr]

Im assuming attack rolls aren't a problem, as you include rays.

At low levels, power word: pain is a "you die" spell.

If you allow ranged touch attacks to count, the entire orb line.

[bobspldbckwrds]

can't forget grease

[Tyndmyr]

There's also Sonic Snap, where removing a single hp is sufficient to make something lose.

On the plus side, it's a cantrip.

[Jack_Simth]

Phantasmal Pit. Unless you're flying, you get at least one round of lose.

Fear + Quickened Fear. Unless you're immune, you've got at least one round of running away, no save.

You've probably already got Force Cage.

[Ailurus]

SR applies, but Blasphemy (and to a lesser extent holy word). If caster CL > your HD + 1, you lose. (Of course, using this on your players may well lead to you getting lynched. Just a heads up)

[PId6]

There's also Sonic Snap, where removing a single hp is sufficient to make something lose.
It is when you Fell Drain it at low levels.

[Kaww]

Venomfire? Those d6 just keep adding up...
Call Avalanche gives save, but no SR. Pump up the DC and it is a killer...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Irresistible Dance
Forcecage

[Greenish]

Hail of Stones is instantaneous conjuration with no attack roll, save or SR. Feel free to apply the metamagic of your choice.

[Tyndmyr]

It is when you Fell Drain it at low levels.

Oh yeah, it definitely is then. =)

Fell drain makes the "lose" portion of many things more awesome. PW:Pain in particular.

[Adumbration]

Fleshshiver (SpC). So long as your CL is higher than your opponent's HD, they're automatically stunned. Save or damage and nauseated on the next round, but does allow SR:

[Kalrik]

Orbs are meh. I just drop the secondary effect and they are a ranged touch that deals 1d6/cl and bypasses SR...good, but not broken.

I simply tell my players that I can do everthing they can do, and more, and I can do it better, so play nice with your spells. :smallcool:

[WinWin]

Take a holiday to the negative energy plane.

Cast death ward. Cast Plane Shift. While on the negative energy plane, Gate your enemies to you. Go home and use your thought bottle. Rest and repeat.

Using gate to summon your enemies has a 1000xp cost, but there is very few ways to defend against it.

[Sindri]

Truenamers can do no save, no SR with all their spells very easily. The issue is that their spells suck.:smallbiggrin:

[Tetrasodium]

Blasphemy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Blasphemy), heightened for true evil.

[Greenish]

Blasphemy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Blasphemy), heightened for true evil.Heightening doesn't do anything for Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

They don't offer a save, and the effect is based on your CL and opponents HD.

[erikun]

Evard's Black Tentacles

Acid Fog is the damaging version of Solid Fog. Oddly enough, Incendiary Cloud does not slow creatures inside and has a save for half damage.

Cloudkill has saves, but you take CON damage either way. No spell resistance, either.

[nargbop]

Amber Sarcophagus from Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a poor man's Imprisonment. No save, does allow SR, have to hit with a ranged touch.

It's much easier to increase to-hit and SR checks than it is to increase save DCs. True Strike, Assay Spell Resistance, and various other spells allow Amber Sarcophagus to be very likely to work.

[Jack_Simth]

Take a holiday to the negative energy plane.

Cast death ward. Cast Plane Shift. While on the negative energy plane, Gate your enemies to you. Go home and use your thought bottle. Rest and repeat.

Using gate to summon your enemies has a 1000xp cost, but there is very few ways to defend against it.Other than that pesky "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate" - and anyone you'd want to specifically kill likely qualifies as "unique".

[WinWin]

Other than that pesky "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate" - and anyone you'd want to specifically kill likely qualifies as "unique".

lol. Specific is not the same as unique. You would not be able to compel the Tarrasque to respond to the calling effect, because it is unique. Bob the Balor on the other hand, is in for a world of hurt.

[thompur]

When it comes to bypassing SR, Arcane Matery(CAr) and the Spell Penatration feats go a long way. If the SR is relatively level appropriate, you should have no problem. With those feats, at 10th level, you automatically overcome SR 24 or less. Yes, it's feat heavy, but if you hate failing because of SR as much as I do, it's worth it.

Also, get the Gauntlets of Ghostfighting, and never worry about the 50% incorporeal miss chance.:smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

lol. Specific is not the same as unique. You would not be able to compel the Tarrasque to respond to the calling effect, because it is unique. Bob the Balor on the other hand, is in for a world of hurt.
Specific and unique are also not particularly game-defined terms. Is a Balor unique for having the number 19876325812486210 tattooed where the sun don't shine? Does a change in skill rank distribution? What about advancement?

These are, unfortunately, questions that the DM answers, not the player, and are not directly addresses in the rules - which means you can't rely on that method.

[Siosilvar]

To continue Fell Drain, Fell Drain Magic Missile will stack negative levels on multiple targets. One target can only receive one negative level per casting, however.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like to fell drain chill touch. It lets you hit lots of targets for negative levels. On that note a fell animate chill touch is a great way to get zombies by killing droped foes.

[PId6]

Druids are especially nasty with Fell Drain. Fell Drain Produce Flame lets you full attack with energy draining ranged touches. Fell Drain Call Lightning and Call Lightning Storm let you blast enemies with a negative level over multiple turns using only one spell. Fell Drain Spike Growth means death to anyone stupid enough to move through it. None of these allow saves for the negative level. It's funny how well a guardian of nature can abuse the foulest of unholy energies.


Heightening doesn't do anything for Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

They don't offer a save, and the effect is based on your CL and opponents HD.
Well, it helps if you have Earth Spell...

[Tyndmyr]

Fell Drained Cloud of Knives sound fun? Bonus cheese points if you persist it.

I know there's another buff that makes all your attacks touch attacks. So, if you don't mind an incantatrix dip, you have some really nasty gish potential.

Fell Drained invisible walls of fire are also something I've used to excellent effect. Basically, take any recurring source of hard to avoid damage, and slap fell drain on it. You now have a way to horrifically kill anything.

[Greenish]

I know there's another buff that makes all your attacks touch attacks.Wraithstrike from SpC. Only works on melee attacks though, because if melee isn't allowed to get nice things, archery isn't going to be allowed even mediocre things.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Depending on what one may do while "secured", Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reversegravity.htm) might qualify.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I know there's another buff that makes all your attacks touch attacks. So, if you don't mind an incantatrix dip, you have some really nasty gish potential.

There's also Find the Gap, though that is limited to the first attack each round...and it may or may not be a Sor/Wiz spell.

@OP: Shivering Touch, Streamers

[balistafreak]

Fell Drained invisible walls of fire are also something I've used to excellent effect.

Wat. :smalleek:

You, my friend, are one eeeeeeeeeeeeevil person.

Invisible walls are bad enough, but Fell Draining walls?

Wait, wait, wait. Fell Animating walls. Metamagic-inefficient, but nothing says "DERP" more than the entire front rank of an army charging through the breach and coming out as zombies under your control on the other side.

http://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2009/091128-derp.jpg

[Endarire]

Lots and lots of damage, like from a Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon).

[Morph Bark]

Hail of Stone, 1st-level spell I believe, from either Complete Arcane or the Spell Compendium, bypasses any defense. The only problem is that it is useless if the enemy moves from its position after your turn.

[Aran Banks]

Stone shape to capture your foes in solid rock?

I'm pretty sure that's legal.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Wat. :smalleek:

You, my friend, are one eeeeeeeeeeeeevil person.

Invisible walls are bad enough, but Fell Draining walls?

Wait, wait, wait. Fell Animating walls. Metamagic-inefficient, but nothing says "DERP" more than the entire front rank of an army charging through the breach and coming out as zombies under your control on the other side.

The only issue is that Fell Animate only animates 2 x caster level HD of zombies. I guess if it was a pretty small army it would still work, though. But then you'd have to worry about your wall of fire killing your newly arisen friends. Alas :smallsigh:

[Zaq]

I find Wall of Thorns to be on this list. It's only marginally easier to get around than Solid Fog is, and it's more easily shaped.

[Tyndmyr]

The only issue is that Fell Animate only animates 2 x caster level HD of zombies. I guess if it was a pretty small army it would still work, though. But then you'd have to worry about your wall of fire killing your newly arisen friends. Alas :smallsigh:

Hence my preference for fell drain. Sure, it takes 24 hrs, but then they rise as wights. Uncontrolled, I'll grant you, but it's not as if they pose any threat to me. The sort of army that walks into a fell drained invisible wall of fire? Oh, they pose a threat to them. It's a situation that just keeps getting better.

Ideally, choose the circle pattern, facing inward, in the middle of a city. Throw a gold coin in the middle to get it started. The thing is, once you realize it's there....you still need to walk out.

[Ajadea]

Fell Drained Cloud of Knives sound fun? Bonus cheese points if you persist it.

Now I have to try that! DMM: Persist: Fell Drain Cloud of Knives = a ton of negative levels (seriously, over 1000 of them). Perfect for massacring low level things. For bonus points, DMM: Persist: Spell Immunity (Dispel Magic) and no one can do a thing about it. No save, no SR, no dispelling.

[Thefurmonger]

Phantasmal Pit. Unless you're flying, you get at least one round of lose.

Fear + Quickened Fear. Unless you're immune, you've got at least one round of running away, no save.

You've probably already got Force Cage.

Where is Phantasmal Pit from?

[Morph Bark]

The only issue is that Fell Animate only animates 2 x caster level HD of zombies. I guess if it was a pretty small army it would still work, though. But then you'd have to worry about your wall of fire killing your newly arisen friends. Alas :smallsigh:

Make the walls cold-damage based through one more feat? Better yet, make it an Uttercold Fell Animating Wall of "Fire", if you don't want to wait long for wights.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Make the walls cold-damage based through one more feat? Better yet, make it an Uttercold Fell Animating Wall of "Fire", if you don't want to wait long for wights.

Assuming that you are referring to the Lord of the Uttercold from CAr, how are wights involved? :smallconfused:

Other than that, it seems like a decent idea except that it would seem pretty lackluster if made permanent. I do like the idea of making an uttercold fell drain wall of fire trap so the wights don't die when they eventually get up. Though there is a slight delay, you will end up with waaaay more undead if this is done properly. A group trapped in one of these babies has 24 hours to get out before their dead buddies start making things difficult...

[Douglas]

Now I have to try that! DMM: Persist: Fell Drain Cloud of Knives = a ton of negative levels (seriously, over 1000 of them). Perfect for massacring low level things. For bonus points, DMM: Persist: Spell Immunity (Dispel Magic) and no one can do a thing about it. No save, no SR, no dispelling.
Spell Immunity doesn't work against Dispel Magic. It can only protect against spells that allow SR.

[dextercorvia]

Spell Immunity doesn't work against Dispel Magic. It can only protect against spells that allow SR.

Even if it did, you still have to worry about Greater/Chain Dispel Magic.

[Fouredged Sword]

And any caster you fight will be faced with a lowering CL due to negative levels!

[SurlySeraph]

Wat. :smalleek:

You, my friend, are one eeeeeeeeeeeeevil person.

Invisible walls are bad enough, but Fell Draining walls?

Wait, wait, wait. Fell Animating walls. Metamagic-inefficient, but nothing says "DERP" more than the entire front rank of an army charging through the breach and coming out as zombies under your control on the other side.

You can do lots of fun things with Fell Drain. A good one that hasn't been mentioned yet is Fell Drain Death Armor and/or Fire Shield and/or Acid Sheath; anything that attacks you in melee takes negative levels. Nice for shutting down builds that get lots of attacks. You can also use it on Magic Missile or Death's Call (from CMage) which, combined with metamagic reducers, allows you to instakill multiple things with 1 HD at 1st level.

Also, Olo mentioned Streamers. Fell Drain Streamers is possibly the most rage-inducing thing that you can cast.

[Telonius]

I'm compiling a list of no save save-or-lose/suck spells to better prepare myself once i start DMing any future games. The spell list is huge and i need some help (and the local budding munchkin is, well, budding so i want a to prepare once he sees the more... interesting material). do mark if they're No SR spells to.

Not a spell, but an item: Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking). A 20-foot spread of "Ha ha, you lose, no save."

[Person_Man]

Although it is by definition not a No Save effect, several magic weapons and feats have Save or Lose effects that are triggered whenever you make an attack. If you make 4+ attacks against an enemy and the Save DC is 20ish+, then it's highly likely that the target is utterly screwed. A good example is Boomerang Daze.

[liquid150]

Gate...because few things say "You lose" like gating in a CR 66 creature to battle CR 17's

Reverse Gravity against non-flyers

Maze (allows for SR, but SR is a joke anyway and no competent spellcaster cares about it)

Forcecage (expensive, but when you're a Shadowcraft Mage and don't care about components....)

Shapechange....because nothing says "I win" like being pretty much anything. You might as well write "I WIN!!!!!" in big neon letters on your character sheet and start waving it like a sign and shouting.

Wall of Stone...divide and conquer.

Wall of Force...see above.

I could go on like this for a while, to be honest....

[Morph Bark]

Assuming that you are referring to the Lord of the Uttercold from CAr, how are wights involved? :smallconfused:

There are no wights involved. I meant that if you don't want to wait a day to get an army of wights (which would happen with Fell Draining), you could use Fell Animating in combination with cold energy substitution and Uttercold to even make the wall beneficial to the undead it creates.


Other than that, it seems like a decent idea except that it would seem pretty lackluster if made permanent. I do like the idea of making an uttercold fell drain wall of fire trap so the wights don't die when they eventually get up. Though there is a slight delay, you will end up with waaaay more undead if this is done properly. A group trapped in one of these babies has 24 hours to get out before their dead buddies start making things difficult...

Yes, though if the ones passing through the wall would survive and die elsewhere rather than inside the wall (or near enough to it to get damage) it wouldn't matter so much what other metamagic you'd stack atop it.

[Tyndmyr]

Spell Immunity doesn't work against Dispel Magic. It can only protect against spells that allow SR.

Thus, as all good wizards who abuse buffs should, you get a ring of counterspelling, charged with dispel magic.

Proceed to go mad with power. It's no fun going mad without it.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Yes, though if the ones passing through the wall would survive and die elsewhere rather than inside the wall (or near enough to it to get damage) it wouldn't matter so much what other metamagic you'd stack atop it.

I was thinking within the context of fighting the basic army. Any Warrior NPC short of level three (and any other NPC class short of level four or five) is pretty much guaranteed to die. Against medium- to high-level adventures, this would be considerably less cool, although it would still dish out plenty of negative levels.

[Tyndmyr]

However, it will transform that moderately leveled army to a low leveled army. And nobody says you only have to cast it once....sonorous hum can maintain it for you, for the low price of a 2nd level slot.

It's inherently defensive, granted, but there's enough high leveled offensive tricks that being able to simply control the battlefield in so direct a way is immensely powerful. It allows even moderately leveled wizards a way to alter the course of a battle in a major way.

And of course, there's the mental effect on the other army. Even once they figure out the basics of what's going on, there's literally no way to know where they are, unless you intend on having people detecting magic everywhere, then focusing on it to learn the school before merely walking anywhere. And avoiding every aura of evocation. On a...battlefield.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Where is Phantasmal Pit from?

I believe he refers to Illusory Pit, from Complete Arcane. Not the easiest attack to pull off, with a 1-round casting time and rounds/level duration, but it does stun a non-airborne target regardless of their save.

If I recall correctly, Moonbolt (SpC) deals a phenomenal amount of Strength damage, save for half. Honestly, ability scores are like ripe, juicy targets when it comes to quickly defeating a foe.

Speaking of, Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) grants you just enough power to Ego Whip anyone into crippling depression, which is just as good as killing 'em, and that's even if they make their saves.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I've gone over all the spells. Most of them do allow atleast SR or a partial save, so don't trust the OP. I suppose I am doing a real version of this over at BG (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0).


When it comes to bypassing SR, Arcane Matery(CAr) and the Spell Penatration feats go a long way. If the SR is relatively level appropriate, you should have no problem. With those feats, at 10th level, you automatically overcome SR 24 or less. Yes, it's feat heavy, but if you hate failing because of SR as much as I do, it's worth it.

Also, get the Gauntlets of Ghostfighting, and never worry about the 50% incorporeal miss chance.:smallbiggrin:This is a good post. Keep in mind you can roll well and overcome an SR25 at level one. At level 20 SR isn't a true defense until the 70-140 range, assuming PrC shenanigans is disallowed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't see Enervation on your list... although it does allow SR...

with sufficient metamagics, the Orb of X line is pretty much 'you die', since it does several thousand damage a pop...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thus, as all good wizards who abuse buffs should, you get a ring of counterspelling, charged with dispel magic.

Proceed to go mad with power. It's no fun going mad without it.

May I sig this?

[Jack_Simth]

I believe he refers to Illusory Pit, from Complete Arcane. Not the easiest attack to pull off, with a 1-round casting time and rounds/level duration, but it does stun a non-airborne target regardless of their save.

Yeah, I got the name wrong. And it got updated in Spell Compendium. A good thing, really.

Oh, of all things, Tiny Hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm) is crazy-useful. It's not an Illusion, so True Seeing doesn't affect it. From the outside, it's opaque. From the inside, it's clear. Great for when you want to cover the party. Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) does this as well.