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Waylor
2010-08-28, 03:24 PM
So im going to join a new game here in the forums and im going to be de party skillmonkey/healer, but is im right now travelling around europe therefore i cant check my books. Is there any Prc for rogues/cleric? (i guess so but i cant remember any right now), as my work as clerics is going to be mainly healing and removing bad things, what about a Factotum/Healer/WhateverPrcThatAdvancesCastingAndGivesSkillPoints? ?

Has anyone here played something like that before? Is healer a good idea or should i stick with CodZilla for the spells?

Thanks :P

balistafreak
2010-08-28, 03:54 PM
First of all, describe the degree to which you subscribe your character to healing.

A well-chosen feat and some cheap, basic equipment are all you NEED for healing. Draconic Aura: Vigor (disclaimer: there are arguments about Draconic Auras) is a cute feat for non-equipment based healing, and Wands of Lesser Vigor should provide all the non-combat healing you'll ever need. If you're a Rogue, for example, just whip wands. You don't even need UMD if you stock up on Healing Belts, although this loses efficiency above 8th-9th level or so.

To whit, the Cure line of spells are useless for in-combat healing, as they are almost strictly slower than damage. (At high caster levels, Cure Serious Wounds, a 3rd level spell, will only ever heal, what, 3d8+10? Average 23.5 healing. A 3rd level Fireball will deal 10d6, average 35. You're losing the race, and badly. Better to negate the Fireball somehow - usually by removing the threat before it can shoot.)

If you want to maintain all that divine casting, though, a Human Factotum1/Cloistered ClericX is all you need. Cloistered Cleric, a class variant in Unearthed Arcana, is a Cleric that gets 6 skill points. Human race + Factotum1 + Able Learner means that ALL skills are class skills forever, so you can use those 6 skill points from C. Cleric to do whatever you want; social skills, trapfinding (which you have due to Factotum1), stealth, you name it.

The Healer base class is pretty much straight up terrible. Just saying. :smallyuk:

There is some good information on C. Cleric skillmonkeys here, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) the Brilliant Gameologists' Cleric Handbook.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-28, 03:58 PM
You could try my cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124934) rewrite. See if your DM will let you follow a god that has access to the Healing and Trickery domains. Choose the Trickery domain as your domain, and pick Healing as one of your Devotions. Knowledge might be a good third, as could Life, Courage, or Luck.

Navigator
2010-08-28, 04:03 PM
Depending on your level, Factotum could work very nicely. Carry some cheap wands for out of combat healing, and a few scrolls for big healing, negative levels, and ability damage. Just make the rest of your party throw in for the healing resources. That and the factotum is the skill monkey's skill monkey. I'd take a dip in Exemplar for skill mastery, and a Swordsage dip.

There is also a prestige class called Shadowbane Inquisitor, not positive which book it's in, but it's meant for a rogue/cleric. There's a lot of fluff involved with that, so it may turn you off, but you can easily work around it with your DM.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-28, 04:06 PM
Skillmonkey/Healer? You don't need to multiclass. Just a good level in Use Magic Device, although it could be tricky before level 7 without any UMD related feats, or without a good Charisma score. Better stick to potions until then.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-28, 04:10 PM
There is also a prestige class called Shadowbane Inquisitor, not positive which book it's in, but it's meant for a rogue/cleric. There's a lot of fluff involved with that, so it may turn you off, but you can easily work around it with your DM.

Complete Adventurer. It does not, however, advance spellcasting, so it's basically worthless... well, unless you want a Paladin-4/Rogue-3/Shadowbane Inquisitor-X/Blackguard-Y... who retails all Paladin abilities.

Waylor
2010-08-28, 04:17 PM
We are starting at lvl 9, so UMD wouldnt be a problem, but i thought only that wouldnt be enought, as you said at high levels is better to prevent than healing. Didnt knew about Cloistered Cleric, probably the way to go, but i dont understand what you said about all skills being class skills. I mean, for my factotum lvl they are, but Able learner only lets you pay 1 point for cross-class skills, not break the half you regular limit (lvl+3/2), right? Even if they where class skills in another class, am i missing something?

ericgrau
2010-08-28, 04:17 PM
So im going to join a new game here in the forums and im going to be de party skillmonkey/healer, but is im right now travelling around europe therefore i cant check my books. Is there any Prc for rogues/cleric? (i guess so but i cant remember any right now), as my work as clerics is going to be mainly healing and removing bad things, what about a Factotum/Healer/WhateverPrcThatAdvancesCastingAndGivesSkillPoints? ?

Has anyone here played something like that before? Is healer a good idea or should i stick with CodZilla for the spells?

Thanks :P

Why DMs must only allow things from books is beyond me. Bam homebrew PrC:
poor BAB, high ref save, full divine casting progression, 6 skill points per level, SA progression on odd levels, uncanny dodge at level 4, improved uncanny dodge at level 8, any other minor weak fluff abilities that fit the flavor you give the PrC
pre-req: sneak attack +2d6, must be able to cast 2nd level divine spells

You might be wondering why it has poor BAB when both entry classes have mid BAB. Answer: sneak attack Codzilla :smalleek:. Even then quickened divine power will make this guy a beast at levels 18+. At lower levels un-quickened divine power is a bit of a trap so it's not so bad. Or simply add a restriction that the class may not cast divine power or it only gives mid BAB or etc.

gallagher
2010-08-28, 04:19 PM
ask your DM if you can make a divine Unseen Seer. the flavor is essentially the same, and all that would need to be changed is to go from arcane to divine spell progression

Waylor
2010-08-28, 04:21 PM
Why DMs must only allow things from books is beyond me. Bam homebrew PrC:
poor BAB, high ref save, full divine casting progression, 6 skill points per level, SA progression on odd levels, uncanny dodge at level 4, improved uncanny dodge at level 8, any other minor weak fluff abilities that fit the flavor you give the PrC
pre-req: sneak attack +2d6, must be able to cast 2nd level divine spells

You might be wondering why it has poor BAB when both entry classes have mid BAB. Answer: sneak attack Codzilla :smalleek:. Even then quickened divine power will make this guy a beast at levels 18+. At lower levels un-quickened divine power is a bit of a trap so it's not so bad. Or simply add a restriction that the class may not cast divine power or it only gives mid BAB or etc.

Im not the kind of player that breaks the game, even if im playing a really uber character ill try to stick to the rest of the party lvl and let them shine (as often im the only optimizer in the table).

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 04:25 PM
Human (prereq for Able Learner):
Lv 1 Factotum, take Able Learner as a feat (cross-class skills do not cost extra to put ranks into).
Lv 2+: Cloistered Cleric.

Able Learner means you can buy ranks in any skill at a 1 to 1 ratio regardless of what class you're putting a level into. Factotum has all skills as class skills so that the max ranks in any skill is Level +3. Together all skills are effectively class skills always.

So yeah the easiest way to do it is Factotum/Cloistered Cleric. If you want sneak attack I guess you could replace Factotum with Rogue and there's a Dragon Magazine (don't have those with me at the moment) that has a feat Sacred Outlaw that causes Cleric and Rogue levels to stack for Sneak Attack progression... might require a +2d6 sneak attack though.

jiriku
2010-08-28, 04:26 PM
Good classes for clerical spellcasting and skill point advancement include:

Base Classes: cloistered cleric variant (UA): full casting 6sp/level

Prestige Classes:
Complete Adventurer: shadowbane stalker (8/10 spellcasting, 6sp/level)
Complete Divine: church inquisitor (10/10 casting, 4sp/level), seeker of the misty isle (8/10 casting, 6sp/level)
Complete Chamion: holt warden (10/10 casting, 4sp/level), paragnostic apostle (5/5 spellcasting, 4 sp/level), squire of legend (2/3 spellcasting, 6 sp/level)
Sandstorm: lord of tides (9/10 spellcasting, 4sp/level)
Frostburn: stormsinger (10/10 casting, 4sp/level)
Lords of Madness: keeper of the cerulean sign (10/10 spellcasting, 6sp/level), sanctified mind (5/6 spellcasting, 4sp/level)

Jack_Simth
2010-08-28, 04:35 PM
but i dont understand what you said about all skills being class skills. I mean, for my factotum lvl they are, but Able learner only lets you pay 1 point for cross-class skills, not break the half you regular limit (lvl+3/2), right? Even if they where class skills in another class, am i missing something?
Skill cap is based on if it's a class skill for *any* of your classes. So with all skills being Factotum skills, Factotum-1 means that any skill has a cap of Character Level+3.

Able Learner cuts out the cross-class rank penalty, but doesn't change the caps.

Combine the two, and all skills are effectively class skills forever.

Waylor
2010-08-28, 04:37 PM
Ok! I thought it was for the class taking the level, then able learners is even more good :P

Lots of good ideas, ill check those prcs, thank you guys ^^

RMS Oceanic
2010-08-28, 04:53 PM
Skill cap is based on if it's a class skill for *any* of your classes. So with all skills being Factotum skills, Factotum-1 means that any skill has a cap of Character Level+3.

Able Learner cuts out the cross-class rank penalty, but doesn't change the caps.

Combine the two, and all skills are effectively class skills forever.

:smallconfused:

Where does it say that? I always thought the skills considered class skills where only the class skills available to the level of class you're taking.

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 04:59 PM
:smallconfused:

Where does it say that? I always thought the skills considered class skills where only the class skills available to the level of class you're taking.

Factotum gets all skills as class skills. As the cap is based off of whether you have any class with that skill on its class list, 1 level of factotum + Able Learner effectively makes everything a class skill forever.

What level you are taking is only important to how many ranks are required to raise it by 1 rank for your current level.


Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís
classes, then character level determines a skillís maximum rank.
(The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís
classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum
for a class skill.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-28, 05:15 PM
:smallconfused:

Where does it say that? I always thought the skills considered class skills where only the class skills available to the level of class you're taking.

If it has ever been a class skill, the cap is level +3. If it is a class skill for the class you are currently leveling in, the buy rate is 1:1; otherwise it is 1:2.

Greenish
2010-08-28, 05:20 PM
Cloistered Cleric with Trickery, Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) and Knowledge domains makes a pretty good skillmonkey out of the box (and as an added bonus, you get to be a kobold, jungle variant is probably the best bet). Trickery can be swapped to Magic so you can use wizard wands and so forth.

true_shinken
2010-08-28, 06:20 PM
Why DMs must only allow things from books is beyond me.
1) You spent money on those books. Better make it count.
2) Lightning Warrior.
3) Easier to find the source material and therefore check for inconsistensies.
4) Lightning Warrior.

Greenish
2010-08-28, 07:17 PM
1) You spent money on those books. Better make it count.
2) Lightning Warrior.
3) Easier to find the source material and therefore check for inconsistensies.
4) Lightning Warrior.Counter-arguments:
1) Now you don't have to, any more.
2) Planar Shepherd.
3) Easier than all of it being online? Googledy goo!
4) Spell-to-power Erudite.

DanReiv
2010-08-28, 07:38 PM
Factotum/Archivist synergize on INT. Both solid classes.

It's quite the skillmonkey thanks to Able learner + divine casting (loosing only 1 CL if dip in factotum)

I'd say go Human (start 16 INT) Factotum 1 (Able Learner/whatever)/Archivist X/PrCwhynot X

Archivist levels will still net you 8 skills point, then 9 at level 8 (INT 18) with all skills being class skills.

A forgiving DM might let you go with iajutsu focus for added fun and Dark Knowledge is quite a nice class feature.

true_shinken
2010-08-28, 07:55 PM
Counter-arguments:
1) Now you don't have to, any more.
Why exactly?

3) Easier than all of it being online? Googledy goo!
Do you play with a computer by your side? Because I don't.

4) Spell-to-power Erudite.
It takes some effort to break a StP Erudite by finding the right spells or even a Planar Shephard, since you have to choose the right planes. It takes time to pick up, even.
Lightning Warrior is broken right out of the gate, sporting even a d20 Hit Die.
There is a lot of bad homebrew - D&DWiki is proof. I find it a lot easier to decide if I allow something within parameters I already know (i.e., books I own) than allowing anything and everything a player might bring on a whim. Being a DM is already a lot of work - having to read through homebrew just to decide if it has a place on my game or not adds even more work.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-28, 07:58 PM
Lightning Warrior

...is not homebrew. It is commentary on D&D design.

true_shinken
2010-08-28, 08:03 PM
...is not homebrew. It is commentary on D&D design.

It was posted in Wizards' homebrew forum, was it not? Also, I heard a few tales about people trying to get Lightning Warriors past their DM. I believe a few of those tales were even in the original Lightning Warrior thread.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-28, 08:08 PM
It was posted in Wizards' homebrew forum, was it not? Also, I heard a few tales about people trying to get Lightning Warriors past their DM. I believe a few of those tales were even in the original Lightning Warrior thread.

If you think the Lightning Warrior is a real, honest-to-god homebrew, then you need to get your sarcasm detector checked and perhaps read some political cartoons. It is commentary on poor class design, nothing more.

Eldariel
2010-08-28, 08:12 PM
Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/5M5QGsJ5mpbLfAHduZG.html) 10 is pretty good; good skills, full-1 casting and Sneak Attack progression.

Tho just Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) with some domains would also perform the same job just fine, even better since you have full casting and need no multiclassing. Or with one-level dip in Rogue or Factotum and Able Learner.


EDIT: Domains easily add the following skills to your class list:
Search/Disable Device
Hide/Bluff/Disguise
Survival
Sense Motive/Intimidate/Appraise

Further, you can use an Initiate-feat to get Spot/Listen in class. Really, the only key one you'll miss out on is Move Silently, and maybe Sleight of Hands. And you can generally handle those with spells just fine though going an extra mile to get 'em in class too may just be worth it.

true_shinken
2010-08-28, 08:39 PM
If you think the Lightning Warrior is a real, honest-to-god homebrew, then you need to get your sarcasm detector checked and perhaps read some political cartoons. It is commentary on poor class design, nothing more.

Since it was never outright stated by the author, this is simply a matter of opinion.
There is A LOT of unbalanced homebrew. Here, for example is a race with LA +0 that gets outsider type, immortality, emotion detection, 40' flight and a bit more. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Alteaevantae_(3.5e_Race)
I wouldn't blame anyone to be careful with homebrew. Of course there is agood homebrew, but D&D wiki at least makes me think most of it is pretty bad.

Greenish
2010-08-28, 08:44 PM
Since it was never outright stated by the author, this is simply a matter of opinion.:smallconfused:

Honestly, now?

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 01:09 PM
Assuming he avoids [quickened] divine power, as mentioned, the poor BAB of the prc shuts down common codzilla abuse. That plus he plans on being the healer and does not plan on abusing the game anyway. So what you have is a healer who can also skillmonkey and sneak attack, but can't do any of those as well as a straight cleric nor a straight rogue. Like a mystic theurge I expect it to be less powerful than either class it blends, only more versatile.

Likewise any home brew that matches itself to something pre-existing and merely tweaks it a little is at little risk of breaking the game. At worst it'll still be in the ballpark of anything else. Or there will be some sick unnoticed combo that takes an abusive player to unravel... which neither the OP nor any civil player will do.

Home brews that write an entirely new class from scratch and so on are a different animal.

Kosjsjach
2010-08-29, 02:16 PM
I've thrown together a skillmonkey cleric before. He was a Changeling Rogue 1/ Cloistered Cleric 4/ Shadowbane Stalker 3 with Able Learner and the Changeling Rogue racial substitution level in Races of Eberron. I never got to play him, but he would've made a fantastic party face, fully-functional healer, and a decent sneak.