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ericgrau
2010-08-28, 05:07 PM
We all know how much multi-classing, LA, etc. sucks for 3e casters, unless you get a prestige class. But prestige classes only cover certain combos. For example someone recently wanted to play a rogue / cleric. This is my attempt to make a more general rule.

Prerequisites: If you meet the prerequisites for any class then your multiclass "prestige class" gains advancement for that class. Triple/quadruple/etc. advancement is allowed. Double dipping the same class for two prerequisites is not allowed.

{table]Prerequisites | Advancement benefit
Sneak attack +2d6 | Sneak attack progression at even levels, 4 skill points per level
Casts 2nd level arcane/divine/psionic spells/powers* | Full casting progression in the given type, wildshape progression if applicable
2 levels in a class proficient with all martial weapons, another prerequisite class has poor BAB | Full BAB
[/table]
* The 2nd+ time you take a class of the same type, reduce this requirement to 1st level spells / powers

BAB: Poor BAB unless otherwise noticed. Exception: If all prerequisites are divine, use mid BAB.
Skill Points: 2 + int per level, except where otherwise noted
Saves: 1 good save from any of your prerequisites classes. If you have any non-caster prerequisites, you may select 2 good saves instead.
Half Casters: Half-caster prerequisites also grant advancement in other major (but not minor) class features from that class including skill points (but not BAB nor saves), bardic music, smite evil, favored enemy, combat style and animal companion. "Major class features" are typically those with a progression pattern, rather than appearing only once or twice.
LA, racial HD: LA and racial HD from a "martial" race may be applied towards the martial class prerequisites. Your DM has the final word on what is martial, but most monstrous races should fit.
Fluff Abilities: You and your DM may agree on additional minor fluff abilities.
Retraining: You may retrain 1 level into a Multiclassed Caster prestige class level each time you level up as long as the resulting build still would have been possible without this rule. For example a wizard 5 could now decide "I want to switch to mystic theurge now" without totally gimping himself (e.g., wizard 5 / cleric 1, wizard 5 / cleric 2, wizard 4 / cleric 3 / mystic theurge 1, wizard 3 / cleric 3 / mystic theurge 2).

Example: A fighter 2 / wizard 3 / psychic warrior 4 gains full BAB, full wizard casting, full psychic warrior power progression and psychic warrior bonus feat progression. The fighter levels are necessary because of the restriction on double dipping prerequisites. Now he has decent BAB and both wizard and psychic warrior buffs. The drawback is that he is of course 5-6 levels behind on his spells / powers and 3 BAB behind a full BAB class.

"Full" applies only to prestige class levels; you still lose caster levels and BAB to non-prestige class levels. As with any existing prestige class, any resulting combo will be lower in power but higher in versatility. If you have a problem with that, then there are other home brews / house rules out there and addressing this concern is beyond the scope of this home brew.

Shpadoinkle
2010-08-29, 12:54 AM
That's a great idea, lets make the strongest classes in the game even stronger!

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 12:56 PM
Uh, most people think mystic theurges, gishes and so on are weaker...

I'm trying to allow for more interesting character builds for people like the rogue / cleric who want to play something new.

Milskidasith
2010-08-29, 01:39 PM
Why is it that a multiclass PrC for a martial character/sneak attacking character gets you poor BAB?

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 02:09 PM
Mostly b/c this was mainly meant for multi-classed casters and you don't want someone with 19 BAB and heavy armor who can buff himself. Actually martial / sneak attack doesn't even qualify so you don't get a prc at all.

Milskidasith
2010-08-29, 02:19 PM
Mostly b/c this was mainly meant for multi-classed casters and you don't want someone with 19 BAB and heavy armor who can buff himself. Actually martial / sneak attack doesn't even qualify so you don't get a prc at all.

That's my entire point... why would you make it so you can't multiclass sneak attacking and fighting?

Also, if you don't want somebody who has 19 BAB and can buff himself, why is it that is entirely possible with this system? I'm confused as to your design intent, when you are saying "I don't want this" while explicitly allowing it and using the "I don't want a full caster with high BAB" as a reason why you don't allow sneak attack/full BAB multiclass.

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 02:57 PM
It's not allowed in either case; it's not possible. You need poor BAB in one of your classes to qualify for a full BAB prc. Cleric / fighter and rogue / fighter simply are not allowed. So you have to find an abusive loophole to pull off cleric / fighter; it can't normally be done at all. Rogue / fighter might be covered by someone else's non-caster prc, but I'm working on a caster prc here. Plus there are already variants to handle it like the sneak attack fighter, or regular multi-classing even.

Milskidasith
2010-08-29, 03:00 PM
It's not allowed in either case; it's not possible. You need poor BAB in one of your classes to qualify for a full BAB prc. Cleric / fighter and rogue / fighter simply are not allowed. So you have to find an abusive loophole to pull off cleric / fighter; it can't normally be done at all. Rogue / fighter might be covered by someone else's non-caster prc, but I'm working on a caster prc here. Plus there are already variants to handle it like the sneak attack fighter, or regular multi-classing even.

I never said anything about cleric/fighter, so I have no clue why you are bringing that up.

My entire point is asking you why you don't allow progression of sneak attack and full BAB at the same time without requiring you to take a poor BAB class. I fully understand it is not possible by the rules you have made, but I am wondering why you wrote it that way, and also why you wrote it so that any OK BAB multiclass gets poor BAB.

ericgrau
2010-08-30, 11:17 AM
For the poor BAB thing it's to avoid things like rogue/cleric sneak attack codzilla, wildshape codzilla and other martial exploits where dual progression could be stacked into crazy buffed melee power instead of the intended purpose of this which is spells. Unlike AB and damage, spell levels don't stack or otherwise bolster eachother, so dual progression is ok there. It also has precedence as most existing prc's are poor BAB. For the remaining comments I think there's some kind of misunderstanding.

So... no one else has a comment on this? Is this system viable? Something you would use?

Milskidasith
2010-08-30, 11:39 AM
For the poor BAB thing it's to avoid things like rogue/cleric sneak attack codzilla, wildshape codzilla and other martial exploits where dual progression could be stacked into crazy buffed melee power instead of the intended purpose of this which is spells. Unlike AB and damage, spell levels don't stack or otherwise bolster eachother, so dual progression is ok there. It also has precedence as most existing prc's are poor BAB. For the remaining comments I think there's some kind of misunderstanding.

So... no one else has a comment on this? Is this system viable? Something you would use?

You are solving problems that dont' exist... cleric with sneak attack isn't worth losing caster levels, and losing BAB is pointless when you have a spell to put it back to full.

Also, most PrCs aren't poor BAB. Only pure caster PrCs are generally poor BAB, and even then cleric/druid ones usually aren't.

ericgrau
2010-08-30, 11:58 AM
Arcane trickster is poor BAB. An exception could be made for divine / divine I suppose. Divine power is a trap. You usually do more damage using the round attacking rather than boosting the hits on your remaining attacks. But ya it becomes worth more as your BAB drops and I've considered disallowing it. You can try to argue that caster > all else, but making a gish that is strictly better than a rogue even with only some all day buffs and none of his other casting (including divine power) is just rubbing it in. You get a little less SA damage per hit but you get more SA dice total from more hits. And okay skill points.

Milskidasith
2010-08-30, 02:35 PM
Arcane trickster is poor BAB. An exception could be made for divine / divine I suppose. Divine power is a trap. You usually do more damage using the round attacking rather than boosting the hits on your remaining attacks. But ya it becomes worth more as your BAB drops and I've considered disallowing it. You can try to argue that caster > all else, but making a gish that is strictly better than a rogue even with only some all day buffs and none of his other casting (including divine power) is just rubbing it in. You get a little less SA damage per hit but you get more SA dice total from more hits. And okay skill points.

You still aren't explaining why you aren't allowed to multiclass between skill monkeys and martial characters.

Roderick_BR
2010-08-30, 05:03 PM
Uh, most people think mystic theurges, gishes and so on are weaker...
Weaker than single class full casters. They are still far more powerful than non-casters. I don't see why you should allow casters to multiclass and keep their power on maximum.

ericgrau
2010-08-31, 12:58 PM
This system is the same power level as mystic theurges. They only get full progression for prc levels. Edited first post to clarify, though it's also in the example.


You still aren't explaining why you aren't allowed to multiclass between skill monkeys and martial characters.
See thread title. Go try someone else's home brew, or other existing prcs.