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true_shinken
2010-08-28, 10:01 PM
Hello, guys.
I will be starting a new campaign in a few months. It will be set 100 years afetr the end of my current campaign. One of the details is the returno of the drow - they were sealed by the dwarves years ago (kind of like the darkspawn are kept in check by the dwarves in Dragon Age), but will escape and be basically a red herring for the players.
So, before I continue, I must say I like the Salvatore drow fluff and I'll be using it. I've seen many people complaining about it, but please refrain from doing it in this thread.
So, I'm thinking of having Lolth as usual, but adding Vulkir from Eberron as the common 'renegade drow god' option for male drow.

So, how exactly do you think could I use the drow against my characters at the lower levels? The campaign will revolve around finding the Rod of Seven Parts, but initially the drow wouldn't know about it. I'm toying with the idea of a drow assassin stalking the characters, but a single drow simply does not showcase'em like I wanted.

chiasaur11
2010-08-28, 10:08 PM
Uh, sorry to be asking, but why Drow?

I mean, they talk the talk, but they're basically elves with LA in a self destructive society that should be dead of infighting within a generation.

More importantly, they live right next to Aboleths and Mindflayers, cthuloid horrors from beyond time.

When you can have the best, why go with some knock offs?

true_shinken
2010-08-28, 10:18 PM
Uh, sorry to be asking, but why Drow?


Because I like them.

Coidzor
2010-08-28, 10:30 PM
...Why am I imagining Lolth as Rita Repulsa now?

Well, drow like to use minions, so as long as you create an atmosphere where there are drow moving around and can impart this to the PCs as they investigate whatever goings on are goings on...Hobbo Slave warriors, for instance would be a credible threat, and a pair of low-level NPC classed drow could make for a mini-boss sort of fight for a low level party.

heymejack
2010-08-28, 10:46 PM
cuz they're cool. elves are cool, and drow are black-skinned, evil elves. who wants to fight brain-sucking alien things when you can fight evil, black-skinned elves.

LA doesn't matter when you're the DM. you make them 2 levels higher, or, you know. anything you want.

so, it seems like your problem is that the drow wouldn't even send anyone up to the surface unless they're at LEAST like 10th level or something? cuz, they've been planning this for 6000 years and they're evil masterminds, so they'd have been training, and not send anyone weak to the surface.

i'd think about making them the puppet masters. suddenly all the surface-dwelling monsters are a lot more organized, coordinated, and every time the PC's break into a room to find the BBEG of the bugbears, or orcs, or whatever it is, they see a dark figure sneak out the back of the room. always around the next corner, or whatever. maybe have one of those white drow from the drow of the underdark book as a spy among the surface elves, or among the humans even, if that'd make sense in your world, manipulating the nations to fight each other and so on. that way they don't get into a direct confrontation with them until they're higher level.

that's what i'm doing in my campaign. they actually met the BBEG, a zharkai (the white drow things) in the very first session, under the guise of ambassador from a faraway elven kingdom, and are currently escorting him to the capital city of the big human kingdom. i'm pretty excited about the reveal, it's a shame it's gonna be like a year and a half from now.

Grommen
2010-08-28, 11:46 PM
One of my current campaigns I am running feathers the drow. It's the second darkness campaign arc from Pazio. I really like their version of the drow. Not that their is anything wrong with Salvitore's drow, cause they are kool too.

Thing you have to keep in mind when your Dm'ing drow, or any creature that lives a good long time. They have time to plan things. A long time. More time that we can really imagen cause we just don't live that long. A good drow plot is one where they always seem to remain one step ahead of your players. Their is always another layer to the plot. They are the puppet masters, and they know how to pull strings, and move pawns.

Even in the second darkness arc, we have known from nearly day one that they plan on blowing up the world. We even know how. But the process to uncover they why, when, and where. That has taken a very long time to uncover. Even when we went down to their city. We played their game. And we only found out what we did, because they let us.
Drow are sneaky, crafty, and they should be hard to kill. Every chance one of the boss drow gets to flee, they take it. They make back up plans, and back up plans for the back up plan.

They make good bad guys. They are tragically flawed as a race. They fall prey to a powerful divine being every time. I like that when I sit down to write a story. I can wrap my head around someone who is like that. That's what makes them so good at being bad. Mind Flayers want to eat your brain. Gross and horrible, but boring. Drow hate you. They hate everything about you. They think that they are the master race and everything, other than their god, is below them.

Now to me if you locked your drow up in a city for a few centuries. I think they just sat back and made stuff up. Thought up stuff....bad stuff. Stuff that will melt your face off, and make your ho-ha shrivel and hide. Then they found a way out. Now some evil would just horde up and come screaming out of the abysss and cause all kinds of hell. Not the drow. They didn't find a way out, just ask one. No they sent their scouts out, their elite soldiers to find out what the world looks like. And they will find it soft my friend. Ripe for the taking. But first they need to blot out the sun. Then they come out screaming, howling, and looking for Bloody Vengeance. After all you put them in the box unjustly. Now it's time for you to pay. So what if it was not you directly, all surface dwellers look alike. Now it's time to die...

chiasaur11
2010-08-29, 01:57 AM
One of my current campaigns I am running feathers the drow. It's the second darkness campaign arc from Pazio. I really like their version of the drow. Not that their is anything wrong with Salvitore's drow, cause they are kool too.

Thing you have to keep in mind when your Dm'ing drow, or any creature that lives a good long time. They have time to plan things. A long time. More time that we can really imagen cause we just don't live that long. A good drow plot is one where they always seem to remain one step ahead of your players. Their is always another layer to the plot. They are the puppet masters, and they know how to pull strings, and move pawns.

Even in the second darkness arc, we have known from nearly day one that they plan on blowing up the world. We even know how. But the process to uncover they why, when, and where. That has taken a very long time to uncover. Even when we went down to their city. We played their game. And we only found out what we did, because they let us.
Drow are sneaky, crafty, and they should be hard to kill. Every chance one of the boss drow gets to flee, they take it. They make back up plans, and back up plans for the back up plan.

They make good bad guys. They are tragically flawed as a race. They fall prey to a powerful divine being every time. I like that when I sit down to write a story. I can wrap my head around someone who is like that. That's what makes them so good at being bad. Mind Flayers want to eat your brain. Gross and horrible, but boring. Drow hate you. They hate everything about you. They think that they are the master race and everything, other than their god, is below them.

Now to me if you locked your drow up in a city for a few centuries. I think they just sat back and made stuff up. Thought up stuff....bad stuff. Stuff that will melt your face off, and make your ho-ha shrivel and hide. Then they found a way out. Now some evil would just horde up and come screaming out of the abysss and cause all kinds of hell. Not the drow. They didn't find a way out, just ask one. No they sent their scouts out, their elite soldiers to find out what the world looks like. And they will find it soft my friend. Ripe for the taking. But first they need to blot out the sun. Then they come out screaming, howling, and looking for Bloody Vengeance. After all you put them in the box unjustly. Now it's time for you to pay. So what if it was not you directly, all surface dwellers look alike. Now it's time to die...

Uh, given Drow SOP, wouldn't they be, you know, extinct?

I mean, they're more prone to infighting than Orkz, with comparatively awful reproductive rates. Wouldn't see many left after a WEEK without someone to distract, I'd assume.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-08-29, 02:17 AM
they have EVERY surface-dwelling race ever to distract them. sure some might kill or die but the majority would be to wrapped up in plotting mass genocide of every sentient race except them!

chiasaur11
2010-08-29, 02:20 AM
they have EVERY surface-dwelling race ever to distract them. sure some might kill or die but the majority would be to wrapped up in plotting mass genocide of every sentient race except them!

But that was the thing.

They'd been sealed up.

As in, only Drow to target.

As in, they should be dead from infighting.

And I hold to my earlier point. Elves are lame. Palette swapped elves are no better. Hordes of mini cthulhus are aces.

Saint GoH
2010-08-29, 02:28 AM
Something I read and have taken to heart has been mentioned already...

Make the drow the masterminds. Have the PC's go through series of events wherein their enemies are too well equipped, too organized, and almost too tough. Poison their food. Weaken their weapons. Use divination so teh drow are always one step ahead. Make the PC's quake in their boots. Heck, they may never even see a drow till ECL 10 or later, and by that time they will be taking every precaution.

WeeFreeMen
2010-08-29, 02:34 AM
Your assuming the Males are strong enough to kill the females.. which they (atleast in Salvatore Lore) flat out aren't. Ever see a fighter kill a Cleric? Exactly.

Infighting doesn't mean much when the vast majority of their race trumps the other. Males are Servants and Breeding and mundane tasks (or dangerous ones). So as normal, their society chugs along, however hateful it may be.

As for answering the OP's question. I did something similar in a 5 shot campaign. I found that a "Death" squad fitted their style, squads of 3, 5, 10+

At lower levels, have them gather intelligence, let them learn their enemy. Often, at low levels fighting even numbered Drow is a bad idea. Especially underground. After lv 4 they should be ok. Perhaps you could have them set up an alliance with some dwarfs, or run across some beat up dwarf outpost with a few stuborn dwarfs fighting back the constant Death Squads.

Any of this hiting any key notes for you? I got time, Id be more than willing to help you flesh out some stuff.

Tsumeken
2010-08-29, 02:44 AM
I always liked the Drow, I agree that they do in fight but that's more like between houses (IMO) then against themselves as a whole. Even sealed away the Drow might find some other thing to distract them or at least entertain them. Maybe they could stumble on some portal to another realm and find more slaves there, heck maybe even establish a colony in this new world and start a take over.

One Drow rp I had in my head once was where the characters were Drow and they had to survive everything from conspiracy to a good aligned cleric on a crusade. Any who, I was just throwing in my two cents in that I believe that they could survive even sealed away. They make pacts and deals with other creatures and Drow to form alliances (shaky as they may be) plus all that hate and brooding of 100 years is quite the motivation to survive just to get even (especially when you think about the fact that the average Elven lifespan is 400+).

WinWin
2010-08-29, 04:12 AM
The Drow: A Higher Technology Setting
Everyone knows that the dark elves are hardcore. Even in the bad old days of DnD’s conception, dark elves were “mirror matches” to the party with class levels of their own, crazy magic items of their own, and good tactics. The real question is: “why are the dark elves so hardcore?” The answer is simple. Dark elves are living at a higher technology level than the rest of the DnD world; their society only exists because, as a society, they cheat. Rather than grow food like surface races, they eat magic mushrooms as the basis of the food chain, they enslave other races for menial positions rather than work, and rather than mine or gather their own resources, they take them from other races. They don’t even have to work that hard on defense as Underdark caverns are naturally easy to defend with small numbers of troops stationed at chokepoints

This means that your average dark elf has free time to spare. While some take that time to indulge in the pleasures of their society, most dark elves are the products of a very odd world view: if only dark elves are your peers and everyone else is a slave, then the only real power worth having is power over other dark elves. That being the case, this means that dark elves have both the free time and the inclination to attempt to enslave each other all the time. This breeds great internal strife with each noble house being an armed camp designed to use stealth, power, and manipulation in order to both resist the efforts of other dark elves and attempt to enslave them.

Like any heavily-automated wartime culture, the dark elves spend considerable resources on weapons research, espionage, and cultural misinformation. This means that every noble house or other organization is constantly looking for an “edge” in their dealings with other dark elves and other races. This leads them to kidnap experts from other races, engage in spell research, experiment with weird magic or exotic technology, forge partnerships with magically or technologically-advanced races, and otherwise do whatever it takes to grow in power. In any particular drow city you can expect to see dozens of competing forms of magic, odd inventions ranging from mechanical limbs to powered gliders, exotic troops like demon-bred orcs or elite espionage races like skulkers, and constructions with magical architecture or resonances. Since every drow is attempting to master his peers, these magics and technologies are tightly controlled, meaning that when the individual or organization that controls them is killed off, these secrets are often lost, meaning that any particular drow might be using relics from a previous generation (that he may well lack the ability to understand or reproduce).

Other races in the Underdark realize that the dark elves truly only want to control each other, so they allow the occasional resource and slave raids of the dark elves. They know that the dark elves are ill-suited to any form of large-scale conquest due to their particular style of command, so placating the drow is often the best way to conserve the resources of your society. Since the other Underdark races tithe goods to the drow and the drow are smart enough to see the value in trade relationships, Underdark races of note are allowed to use dark elf cities as major trading posts between their own kind and other races. The dark elves see all races as being underneath them, so as long as the other races show deference to them and bring in a profit in trade, they allow this enterprise to continue.

The average drow city is thus a hornet’s nest of power, full of indolent, wildly dangerous, and spoiled aristocrats. Even the lowliest of drow lives in a level of luxury suitable to the most powerful of nobles on the surface, and each one of them has reached adulthood in an atmosphere of distrust and manipulation with the weakest dying early. As individuals this makes them powerful and cruel, but as a race it keeps them inwardly looking and less of a threat than more ambitious warrior races, a fact that actually prevents other races from gathering their forces and destroying the drow outright.


From Frank and K's Dungeonomicon. I hope it goves you some inspiration. If the link is a problem I will remove it.

Dungeonomicon (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547)

true_shinken
2010-08-29, 11:05 AM
But that was the thing.

They'd been sealed up.

As in, only Drow to target.

As in, they should be dead from infighting.


They were actually fighting the dwarves that kept them sealed.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, it really got me thinking.
Also, I noted the original Rod of Seven Partts adventure path for AD&D has a lot of spider-demon things. This fits very well with thw drow theme. In 3.5, whre can I find spider-demons?

Esser-Z
2010-08-29, 11:08 AM
...Why am I imagining Lolth as Rita Repulsa now?

And with that one sentence, lo, the Drow had found there place in my campaign.

heymejack
2010-08-29, 02:20 PM
there is good stuff in both the 'drow of the underdark' book and the monster manual IV.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 03:41 PM
Uh, given Drow SOP, wouldn't they be, you know, extinct?

I mean, they're more prone to infighting than Orkz, with comparatively awful reproductive rates. Wouldn't see many left after a WEEK without someone to distract, I'd assume.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that drow reproduce at the same rate as humans. And we've had self destructive societies like that before, and we never went extinct. Keep in mind that most of the infighting plots and stuff take long decades of planning to pull off because you don't want to leave yourself vulnerable while you do it. It's not like drow are shooting each other in the streets everyday or anything.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-29, 06:50 PM
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that drow reproduce at the same rate as humans. And we've had self destructive societies like that before, and we never went extinct. Keep in mind that most of the infighting plots and stuff take long decades of planning to pull off because you don't want to leave yourself vulnerable while you do it. It's not like drow are shooting each other in the streets everyday or anything.

And they will only attack when they know that they can win without leaving a trace of themselves behind.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 06:58 PM
And they will only attack when they know that they can win without leaving a trace of themselves behind.

Exactly. And with everyone being as sneaky as you, that's pretty hard to pull off.

true_shinken
2010-08-29, 07:42 PM
Exactly. And with everyone being as sneaky as you, that's pretty hard to pull off.

Yup. The kind of thing you learn at the first 5 pages of a Salvatore novel. ^^

sambo.
2010-08-29, 08:08 PM
hope your PCs all have decent Fort saves and pack some poison antidotes.

that sleepyjus is nasty stuff if it takes hold.

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 11:36 PM
And with that one sentence, lo, the Drow had found there place in my campaign.

Time to recruit some teenage adventurers with attitude.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 06:37 AM
Seriously, I am totally going to have the Drow use all sorts of ridiculous monsters, which will sometimes grow huge, in a campaign one of these day. XD

Evard
2010-08-30, 07:02 AM
Instead of the party actively fighting the Drow, have the Drow recruit the adventurers to go on some quests for them...

By recruit I do mean forced
And by quests I do mean really really dangerous missions that the female Drow won't even send the men Drow to go do....

You know... Make the PC's their slaves from that other realm they found while they were locked away by the dwarves... This way the PC's can fight dwarves at low levels due to being forced by the drow and later level (10 ish) when the Drow decides the party is getting to good the party can escape and start killing Drow. This is good for a few reasons...

1) Lots of story goodness... Like the dwarves that saw the party working with the drow ... maybe a party member killed a dwarf and when working for a drow and after they escape and start helping/working with the dwarves to beat the Drow one of the dwarven fighters will be all "you killed my fathah!" lol

2) You won't really have to start planning anything to diabolical (layers and layers under the layers of other layers) till later in the game when you can do sooo much more to the party without really killing them :)

3) If you have restricted classes... Then you can say "All adventurers of these classes are killed, no if and or butts about it". You didn't ban ToB the Drow just happen to slice the necks of all the warblades, swordsages, and crusaders :D

4)You could easily make the PC"s think they are working toward 1 goal when in fact the Drow have goal number 2 in order... That way when (and they will) they gain their freedom they will fight toward the wrong goal for a while. Maybe the false info given to the dwarves make the dwarves attack them? After months of planning the resistancy (haha zim,.,,) finds a warehouse with a sign that says "haha" and the dwarves think the party lead them there on purpose...

yeah lots of fun things to do :3

Heck you could make it so that the party doesn't know the Drow are evil and that they have the party destroy the dwarves (I hate dwaves btw lol)

And then after the party stops the drow or destroy them.... Have the party reincarnate into dwarves to repopulate the race they wiped out...

Ormagoden
2010-08-30, 09:46 AM
Loth! Make my monsters GROW!!!!!!!!!
http://www.rangercentral.com/images/mmpr-m1-spidertron.jpg

true_shinken
2010-08-30, 04:29 PM
Heck you could make it so that the party doesn't know the Drow are evil and that they have the party destroy the dwarves (I hate dwaves btw lol)

Lots of good suggestions, but I'm going for a more heroic kind of game.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-30, 08:07 PM
you could always do it as though the PC's are creatures that were trapped down then (in the case of Dwarves, Humans, Draconic races, Shadar-kai, etc), as they are all known to live in the Underdark, or that have come through portals accidentally (ie Fey races). That would give them a reason that they would be done there in the first place.

And remember that in the case of your BBEG getting Frustrated with the Party always interfering with thier plans a Drow will always send in Driders if need be

chiasaur11
2010-08-30, 09:10 PM
Instead of the party actively fighting the Drow, have the Drow recruit the adventurers to go on some quests for them...

By recruit I do mean forced
And by quests I do mean really really dangerous missions that the female Drow won't even send the men Drow to go do....

You know... Make the PC's their slaves from that other realm they found while they were locked away by the dwarves... This way the PC's can fight dwarves at low levels due to being forced by the drow and later level (10 ish) when the Drow decides the party is getting to good the party can escape and start killing Drow. This is good for a few reasons...

1) Lots of story goodness... Like the dwarves that saw the party working with the drow ... maybe a party member killed a dwarf and when working for a drow and after they escape and start helping/working with the dwarves to beat the Drow one of the dwarven fighters will be all "you killed my fathah!" lol

2) You won't really have to start planning anything to diabolical (layers and layers under the layers of other layers) till later in the game when you can do sooo much more to the party without really killing them :)

3) If you have restricted classes... Then you can say "All adventurers of these classes are killed, no if and or butts about it". You didn't ban ToB the Drow just happen to slice the necks of all the warblades, swordsages, and crusaders :D

4)You could easily make the PC"s think they are working toward 1 goal when in fact the Drow have goal number 2 in order... That way when (and they will) they gain their freedom they will fight toward the wrong goal for a while. Maybe the false info given to the dwarves make the dwarves attack them? After months of planning the resistancy (haha zim,.,,) finds a warehouse with a sign that says "haha" and the dwarves think the party lead them there on purpose...

yeah lots of fun things to do :3
.

Odd definition of "fun" there.

Only thing worse than railroading is railroading followed up with "Ha Ha! You fell into my trap!"

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 09:43 PM
Which is exactly when a good party reveals they say it coming and prepared a counter trap!

Worira
2010-08-31, 12:20 AM
Said counter-trap being the PCs pulling out the weapons they are carrying, either openly or concealed, and beating the drow to death with them.

Seriously, if you ever make a plan as a DM that relies on PCs not having weapons on their persons, scrap it and make a new one.

And not one that requires them to assume a statue is an innocuous object, either.

Coidzor
2010-08-31, 07:17 AM
And with that one sentence, lo, the Drow had found there place in my campaign.Time to recruit some teenage adventurers with attitude.

Yes... Yes.... MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA! :smallbiggrin:


Seriously, I am totally going to have the Drow use all sorts of ridiculous monsters, which will sometimes grow huge, in a campaign one of these day. XD

Loth! Make my monsters GROW!!!!!!!!!
http://www.rangercentral.com/images/mmpr-m1-spidertron.jpg
I...I think I love you guys. *tears up*

Seriously, if you ever make a plan as a DM that relies on PCs not having weapons on their persons, scrap it and make a new one.

And not one that requires them to assume a statue is an innocuous object, either.

Maybe one that requires them to pull the other one that has bells on?

Tsumeken
2010-08-31, 07:43 AM
Drow crossover Power rangers rp. intresting to say the least lol.

Starting the characters as prisoners isn't always a bad thing but if they were going to be Drow prisoners they'd have to be on their toes that's for sure. i can see a male fighter/barbarian going off and doing something minor (like trying to talk, or eyeing someone funny) and getting his rear kicked. Heck in Drow society it's even unlawful to talk to a female Drow (even if your a male one) unless given permission. One way it might work is if the PC's stumble upon one of the many plots of another Drow and then are "recruited" to their cause. That would give them a way out of bondage but of course afterward they would still have to deal with their new Drow master who formulated the plan. Best way probably have them not fully in the Underdark so that they could escape and then make a run for the surface (that or the convenient wizard save).

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 07:54 AM
Some of the other Faerun sources (Underdark in particular) make drow a bit more interesting. Sshamath, a city ruled by drow wizards, for example. Or Undrek-Thoz, near Thay. Not all drow are as prone to infighting, or as matriarchal, as those of Menzoberranzan.

Using the more Affably Evil drow might make life a bit easier for the players.

HenryHankovitch
2010-08-31, 11:23 AM
I've always gotten the impression that drow are not so insane as they are commonly reputed to be, in-game and out of game. Certainly, there's no "fluff" reason to do so. That said, the worst thing that's been done to them is being used in D&D novels. The matrons and priestesses in particular tend to get written as psychopathic, perpetually-PMSing retards with no sense of self-preservation. As opposed to the sneaking, conniving survivors they would have to be to stay alive.

Additionally, I think people overestimate the effects of the matriarchal theocracy, extending it to all levels of society. In other words, females at the top of the political ladder rule with impunity, sure; but that doesn't mean that low-rank and houseless females can lord it over any male they see. Especially if the male is of some position of importance in a House heirarchy.

In general, your average drow matron ought to act less like Malice Do'Urden and more like Atia of the Julii (from HBO's Rome). Politically savvy, ruthless, willing to commit horrible crimes, but usually careful to keep her own hands clean.