PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Help me with an lvl 11 avenger, urgetn I am playing tomorrow



Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 10:15 PM
As the title says I am going to play in an 4e game tomorrow and I want to play an avenger, the problem is that I suck at making avengers, on a level 5 game my maximum damage was something like 13 points or so.

so can you help me?

I am dead set on avenger
I work with the Character builder (last updated in may if that matters)
Level 11

Meta
2010-08-28, 10:18 PM
Well you are one lucky sir, I can whip up some nasty avengers :). Are there any requisites for your character aside from class? Also do you have a preferred censure or play style? We can even take this to PM if you like

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 10:22 PM
Well I would like a crit fisher build... but I hear they are very prone to make DM chuck books at the offending player.

As of race I am not sure, IIRC half elf make good avengers, but I am open to suggestion

Meta
2010-08-28, 10:24 PM
Well I would like a crit fisher build... but I hear they are very prone to make DM chuck books at the offending player.

As of race I am not sure, IIRC half elf make good avengers, but I am open to suggestion

Half elves make good crit fishing avenger's. A very good non crit fishing build would be elf/deva/githzerai ideally. Any of those jump at you?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 10:29 PM
hmm Githzerai sounds interesting.... I think I can work with it.

Meta
2010-08-28, 10:35 PM
K pursuit avenger.

Feats as follows:

Githzerai blade mastery
Unarmored agility
Painful oath
Power of skill
Monastic disciple
Zuoken's centering
Weapon expertise heavy blades

Meta
2010-08-28, 10:38 PM
Powers:
Overwhelming strike
Bond of pursuit

Angelic alacrity
Sequestering strike/the minor attack one (fury's advance?) it's in dp
Inexorable pursuit

Aspect of might
Executioner's cloak/menacing presence
Blade of repulsion

Refocus enmity
Step of fate/oath of the relentless hunter
Spot weakness

If you have any questions on why there's two choices at a level holler

Pp: favored soul is decent. Ardent champion is good. Any ideas on your PP?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 10:45 PM
First thanks I'll start building right now,

As for the PP, this is the first time I am going to play on a level where PP are available (highest level game is at level 7)

Meta
2010-08-28, 10:55 PM
I edited a bit up above for ya.

And as for PP's favored soul is more of a utility choice while ardent champion is more strikery oriented. Both are quite good and useful in their respective fields though

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 11:00 PM
I am going to go with ardent slayer PP (the name sounds Badass) and I like love rolling huge amounts of dice, so the moar striker abilities the better.

Meta
2010-08-28, 11:03 PM
Right slayer not champion my mistake. And yep it's about as strikery as it gets for a dex avenger. Anything else to cover? For your skills I'd take insight perception acrobatics stealth and your choice of another

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 11:15 PM
Um what are the pre-reqs for Argent Slayer?

Edit:t: I am guessing a stat priority of Dex->Wis->Con->Int->Cha-Str

CakeTown
2010-08-28, 11:33 PM
Potion Sale was right the first time, it is Ardent Champion. There's another Paragon Path called Relentless Slayer, so maybe that confused you a little.

The prerequisites for Ardent Champion are being an Avenger with the Censure of Pursuit class feature. For Relentless Slayer, you just need to be an Avenger.

Now with a Pursuing Avenger, Wis should be your highest, with Dex as your second highest. Charisma or Strength should probably be your dump stat.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-28, 11:35 PM
My bad on the name (though Ardent slayer sounds better than champion)

Ok so Wis->Dex->Con->Int->Str-Cha?

CakeTown
2010-08-29, 12:01 AM
Yes, those stats would work the best.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:05 AM
So how does this array (pre- race and level modifiers) looks?

Str 10
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 8

Meta
2010-08-29, 12:26 AM
Sorry for the delay, I was on rounds. You don't need con at all. Check out what zuoken's centering does and you'll see why.

12 str
10 con
16 dex
10 int
16 wis
10 cha

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:29 AM
Would do if I could find the feat....

Meta
2010-08-29, 12:31 AM
Spelling is a bit off perhaps. It's a githzerai monk feat I believe. Or just one of those. It's in a dragon.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:38 AM
I can't find it, but melee training (wisdom) is great with a +10

Meta
2010-08-29, 12:40 AM
I can't find it, but melee training (wisdom) is great with a +10

Nononono, power of skill is far superior. You can use overwhelming strike as an MBA and you get +1 to your trained skills (which are great!)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:42 AM
I also took power of skill

Meta
2010-08-29, 12:44 AM
I also took power of skill

Then you have no need for melée training

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:49 AM
Then what should I take? right now skill training (insight) is the one I am taking

Meta
2010-08-29, 12:50 AM
Then what should I take? right now skill training (insight) is the one I am taking

You def don't need that? You take insight with your monastic disciple feat. Why are you changing your feats around?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 12:55 AM
You def don't need that? You take insight with your monastic disciple feat. Why are you changing your feats around?

took stealth with monastic disciple.

I took intimidate as a class skill since it fits Bane's dogmas, plus it I like it.

And I am changing feats arround cause I can't find Zuoken centering or that

My feats right now are
1 Githzerai Blade Master
2 Unarmored Agility
4 Power of Skill
6 Monastic Disciple
8 Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades)
10 Skill training (Insight)
11 Painful Oath

Gralamin
2010-08-29, 01:01 AM
Zuoken's Centering Can be found in Dragon Magazine 378, or the compendium. In short, it makes you use Wisdom for more stuff.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 01:07 AM
Now I understand why I couldn't find Zuoken Centering, it is has pre-requisites level 11, and as my feat is painful Oath I won't take it till later level.

Gralamin
2010-08-29, 01:11 AM
Now I understand why I couldn't find Zuoken Centering, it is has pre-requisites level 11, and as my feat is painful Oath I won't take it till later level.

At 11th level, you can retrain a feat (Such as your 10th level feat) into a paragon feat. Thus you can have two paragon feats.

By the way, if you have the character creator, I beleive the build Potion Sale is currently looking at looks like this:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Githzerai, Avenger, Ardent Champion
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 11, Dex 21, Int 11, Wis 21, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 25 Fort: 17 Reflex: 21 Will: 21
HP: 95 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +11, Stealth +16, Acrobatics +18, Perception +16, Insight +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +5, Heal +10, History +5, Intimidate +5, Nature +10, Streetwise +5, Thievery +10, Athletics +12

FEATS
Level 1: Githzerai Blade Master
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Power of Skill
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Monastic Disciple
Level 10: Avenger's Fortunes (retrained to Painful Oath at Level 11)
Level 11: Zuoken's Centering

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Monastic Disciple: Centered Flurry of Blows
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger daily 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 2: Refocus Enmity
Avenger encounter 3: Fury's Advance
Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence
Avenger utility 6: Step of Fate
Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger daily 9: Blade of Repulsion
Avenger utility 10: Spot Weakness

====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 01:15 AM
Didn't know I could do that.... now all make sense thanks!!!

Sorry I am a noob concerning 4e and the builder, I just used the most basic functions and retraining hadn't come up till now.

Gralamin
2010-08-29, 01:20 AM
Didn't know I could do that.... now all make sense thanks!!!

Sorry I am a noob concerning 4e and the builder, I just used the most basic functions and retraining hadn't come up till now.

No problem, glad to help.

Item wise:
You probably want a +3 Jagged Fullblade, +2 Bloodthread Cloth armor (+3 Magic Githweave makes you trade +1 Ref/Fort for 1 Will/AC), and amulet of protection +3 (End defenses: 27/20/24/24). Spend gold on whatever, really.

I'll do some math quickly to see what you should look forward to, DPR wise.

Meta
2010-08-29, 01:20 AM
Didn't know I could do that.... now all make sense thanks!!!

Sorry I am a noob concerning 4e and the builder, I just used the most basic functions and retraining hadn't come up till now.

We all start somewhere. You good to go now though?

Meta
2010-08-29, 01:23 AM
No problem, glad to help.

Item wise:
You probably want a +3 Jagged Fullblade, +2 Bloodthread Cloth armor (+3 Magic Githweave makes you trade +1 Ref/Fort for 1 Will/AC), and amulet of protection +3 (End defenses: 27/20/24/24). Spend gold on whatever, really.

I'll do some math quickly to see what you should look forward to, DPR wise.

Sanguine Vestments are fairly solid, but i don't remember the level. And Iron Armbands of Power should be a definite. The heroic dragonshard of radiance would be solid too.

EDIT: apologies for double post

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 01:32 AM
Thank you so much for all the help, and that jagged fullblade looks smexy!!!

Edit: Another noob question, how do tatoos work?

Gralamin
2010-08-29, 01:36 AM
Sanguine Vestments are fairly solid, but i don't remember the level. And Iron Armbands of Power should be a definite. The heroic dragonshard of radiance would be solid too.

EDIT: apologies for double post

Sanguine are level 3/8/13 - too high
5000 gp. - Iron Armbands take up 1800
No need for Siberys shard - currently doesn't have any radiant damage powers, or any way to convert damage to radiant.


Thank you so much for all the help, and that jagged fullblade looks smexy!!!

Edit: Another noob question, how do tatoos work?
Tattoos take up their own slot. So you can only have one, but they don't interfere with your other items.

Meta
2010-08-29, 01:38 AM
Sanguine are level 3/8/13 - too high
5000 gp. - Iron Armbands take up 1800
No need for Siberys shard - currently doesn't have any radiant damage powers, or any way to convert damage to radiant.


Tattoos take up their own slot. So you can only have one, but they don't interfere with your other items.

painful oath adds the radiant and necrotic keywords

EDIT: I believe he'll still have some gold after shard and IAoP

Gralamin
2010-08-29, 01:56 AM
painful oath adds the radiant and necrotic keywords

EDIT: I believe he'll still have some gold after shard and IAoP

Oh that works? Okay. And he will have some gold.

The following spoiler contains DPR math, against an even level generic opponent:

DPR:

If Censure of Pursuit triggers, +9 damage.
If oath target, roll twice, crit on 19-20 or if both roll the same number and are not 1 and the attack hits. In addition, +5 for the first attack against your oath each turn.

Attacking at +17, usually against AC. Enemy AC is ~level +14. So probably looking at around 25. In which case, you have to roll an 8 or higher to hit.

So: Roll combinations that lead to a miss:
1 - 1, 2, 3,... 7 (7 Combos)
2 - 2, 3,... 7 (6 Combos)
3 - 3, ... 7 (5 combos)
4 - 4, ... 7 (4)
5 - 5, ... 7 (3)
6 - 6, ... 7 (2)
7 - 7 (1)

7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 28

210 Possible Combinations
-> Miss 13.333...% of the time

Possible crit combinations:
8 - 8, 19, 20 (3 combos)
9 - 9, 19, 20 (3)
Etc. until 18, 19, 20 (3)
19 - 19, 20 (2)
20 - 20 (1)

11 numbers between 8 and 18, so: 11*3+2+1 = 36 combinations
-> Crit 17.1428571% of the time

So you hit normally 69.5238095% of the time.

Non-AP At-will DPR, against oath, with oath:
Average damage: 6.5 + 5 (Wis) + 2 (Armbands) + 3 (Feat) + 3 (Enhance) + 5 (Painful Oath) + 1 (Shard) = 25.5
Crit Damage: 12 + 13 (High Crit) + 5 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 5 + 1 = 44, +10 ongoing save ends (Leaving out for now)

19.5 * 146/210 + 38 * 36/210 = 25.271486 Damage per round per at-will attack (or OA).

If you get Censure, this increases to 33.0714286

Damage drops to ~20.0714286 per each additional at-will attack. (27.8714286 with Censure). I'm not including that Painful oath would transfer over, which complicates the math for minimial benefit.

Encounters and dailies will of course deal more.

So what does this mean? Well say you were fighting generic monster X, and all the following were true:
You have your AP, you have him Oath'd and can gain its benefit, and you have censure.
If you attack him with an At-will twice, via AP, you deal, on average:
33.0714286 + 27.8714286 = 60.9428572 damage.

If you also get an OA on that round, you would deal an additional 20.0714286 damage (Censure hasn't activated again yet), for a total of just over 81 damage.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 02:00 AM
@Gralamin:Though I REALLY appreciate the DPR math you did, I am too tired to try to make sense of it right now (It is almost 2 AM here), but at a glance it seems that my DM will hate my character soon enough.
Oh and here is the finnished character

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Asiraeh, level 11
Githzerai, Avenger, Ardent Champion
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Background: Githzerai - War Band Survivor (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 11, Wis 21, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 27 Fort: 21 Reflex: 24 Will: 24
HP: 95 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +11, Stealth +16, Acrobatics +18, Perception +20, Insight +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +5, Heal +10, History +5, Intimidate +5, Nature +10, Streetwise +5, Thievery +10, Athletics +12

FEATS
Level 1: Githzerai Blade Master
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Power of Skill
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Monastic Disciple
Level 10: Avenger's Fortunes (retrained to Painful Oath at Level 11)
Level 11: Zuoken's Centering

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Monastic Disciple: Centered Flurry of Blows
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger daily 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 2: Refocus Enmity
Avenger encounter 3: Fury's Advance
Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence
Avenger utility 6: Step of Fate
Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger daily 9: Blade of Repulsion
Avenger utility 10: Spot Weakness

ITEMS
Jagged Fullblade +3, Bloodthread Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Amulet of Protection +3, Ruby Scabbard (heroic tier), Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Radiance (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Cannith Goggles (heroic tier), Hedge Wizard's Gloves (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (10), Pierced Heart Tattoo (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Gralamin
2010-08-29, 02:01 AM
@Gralamin:Though I REALLY appreciate the DPR math you did, I am too tired to try to make sense of it right now (It is almost 2 AM here), but at a glance it seems that my DM will hate my character soon enough.
Oh and here is the finnished character


No problem, take a look at it when you are more awake.

Meta
2010-08-29, 10:09 AM
@Gralamin:Though I REALLY appreciate the DPR math you did, I am too tired to try to make sense of it right now (It is almost 2 AM here), but at a glance it seems that my DM will hate my character soon enough.
Oh and here is the finnished character

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Asiraeh, level 11
Githzerai, Avenger, Ardent Champion
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Background: Githzerai - War Band Survivor (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 11, Wis 21, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 27 Fort: 21 Reflex: 24 Will: 24
HP: 95 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +11, Stealth +16, Acrobatics +18, Perception +20, Insight +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +5, Heal +10, History +5, Intimidate +5, Nature +10, Streetwise +5, Thievery +10, Athletics +12

FEATS
Level 1: Githzerai Blade Master
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Power of Skill
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Monastic Disciple
Level 10: Avenger's Fortunes (retrained to Painful Oath at Level 11)
Level 11: Zuoken's Centering

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Monastic Disciple: Centered Flurry of Blows
Avenger encounter 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger daily 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 2: Refocus Enmity
Avenger encounter 3: Fury's Advance
Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence
Avenger utility 6: Step of Fate
Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger daily 9: Blade of Repulsion
Avenger utility 10: Spot Weakness

ITEMS
Jagged Fullblade +3, Bloodthread Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Amulet of Protection +3, Ruby Scabbard (heroic tier), Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Siberys Shard of Radiance (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Cannith Goggles (heroic tier), Hedge Wizard's Gloves (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (10), Pierced Heart Tattoo (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


you snuck a point into STR when you shoulda gone with DEX each time.

And @Gralamin, the does damahe type apply keyword thing is a fairly new change. It was always unclear before but WotC included in an update for PHB.

Meta
2010-08-29, 11:03 PM
did your character do okay for ya?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-29, 11:26 PM
It worked extremely well, I don't remembering having so much fun at a 4e game before. There is something in seeing the face of your DM when you roll 2d20 and get a 19 and a 20 on a jagged weapon.

The overwhelming assault + charging + boots of adept charging combo is awesome.

Finally I got the most satisfying kill ever. I charge the Chain Devil that just the round before send me into negatives (which my Warlord took me out of) and get double 7 on the dice which thanks to the Argent Champion PP means that if I can normally hit them with that number is a crit. Then my DM smiles as I can't hit it with a 24, then I point him that I got a 25 due the charge. Cue a splatter on the floor where the Chain devil used to be.

Also I made a Zabuza with a combination of Fanatical Fury, fury's advance and centered flurry of blows.

TD;LR It was A.W.E.S.O.M.E

Thanks for all the help you gave.

Meta
2010-08-29, 11:36 PM
It worked extremely well, I don't remembering having so much fun at a 4e game before. There is something in seeing the face of your DM when you roll 2d20 and get a 19 and a 20 on a jagged weapon.

The overwhelming assault + charging + boots of adept charging combo is awesome.

Finally I got the most satisfying kill ever. I charge the Chain Devil that just the round before send me into negatives (which my Warlord took me out of) and get double 7 on the dice which thanks to the Argent Champion PP means that if I can normally hit them with that number is a crit. Then my DM smiles as I can't hit it with a 24, then I point him that I got a 25 due the charge. Cue a splatter on the floor where the Chain devil used to be.

Also I made a Zabuza with a combination of Fanatical Fury, fury's advance and centered flurry of blows.

TD;LR It was A.W.E.S.O.M.E

Thanks for all the help you gave.

That's great! Glad you had a good time and were effective. Can't ask for more than that! :smallbiggrin: