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Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-08-29, 01:50 AM
Now before anyone starts deviating from the topic on the note of, "Why play monk?" It is a one level dip and I was wondering if it was possible to make the most of it. The monk weapon proficiencies describe a set of weapons that a monk can use while still getting bonuses. I was wondering if it was possible, whether it be through spell or class variant, to add weapons to that list? If it's possile to do, can you please list the Book/Source and Pg #.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-29, 01:55 AM
Oriental Adventures expands the monk's list.
Alternatively, use the weapon group feats and just choose Oriental Weapons or something.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-29, 02:32 AM
There's a few isolated feats that let you count a weapon as a Monk weapon - one I know of for Longswords, and I think there's one for some sort of polearm.

Keld Denar
2010-08-29, 02:51 AM
Polemaster, in Secrets of Sarlona.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-08-29, 02:51 AM
Hmm. I suppose another question that pertains to this could be asked. Are there any monk weapons that can be used with weapon finesse? Something with more than 1d4 damage?

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 02:52 AM
Eberron Campaign Setting, pg 52, 60, 62

Double Steel Strike: treat two-bladed sword as special monk weapon
Serpent Strike: treat longspear as as special monk weapon
Whirling Steel Strike: treat longsword as as special monk weapon

Secrets of Sarlona, pg 17

Pole Master: reach weapon is treated as special monk weapon

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 02:57 AM
Shou Disciple from Unapproachable East can flurry with any light weapon at 3rd level and any melee weapon at 5th.

WinWin
2010-08-29, 04:24 AM
I suppose I should mention the Aptitude weapon enhancement from TOB.

kaptainkrutch
2010-08-29, 04:32 AM
Shou Disciple from Unapproachable East can flurry with any light weapon at 3rd level and any melee weapon at 5th.

Combine that with Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior p.103) and flurry with a fullblade.:smalltongue:

EDIT: Didn't realize Shou Disciple could already flurry with 2-handers.

Darrin
2010-08-29, 08:44 AM
I suppose I should mention the Aptitude weapon enhancement from TOB.

That doesn't help with Flurry, which is a class ability, not a weapon-specific feat.


Combine that with Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior p.103) and flurry with a fullblade.:smalltongue:

Monkey Grip doesn't do what you think it does. It addresses the "handed-ness" of larger weapons, but leaves the -2 off-size penalty intact. Strongarm Bracers (MIC, 6000 GP) is much more effective at wielding larger-sized weapons.


I was wondering if it was possible, whether it be through spell or class variant, to add weapons to that list? If it's possile to do, can you please list the Book/Source and Pg #.

There's a feat in the Dragon Compendium (p. 109), Unorthodox Flurry, that allows you to treat a light weapon as a monk weapon for flurry purposes. Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East) also works with all melee weapons.

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 08:46 AM
Hmm. I suppose another question that pertains to this could be asked. Are there any monk weapons that can be used with weapon finesse? Something with more than 1d4 damage?

Small light monk weapons are 1d4 (sai is 1d3). Medium light weapons are 1d6 (sai is 1d4).

The Intuitive Attack feat (Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 44) allows a character to use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Strength modifer on attack rolls with simple weapons and natural weapons. While this excludes monk weapons, it opens up quarterstaff. Not relevant to your question, I know, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

Enlarge potions? I hate resorting to those but there it is.

kaptainkrutch
2010-08-29, 09:23 AM
Monkey Grip doesn't do what you think it does. It addresses the "handed-ness" of larger weapons, but leaves the -2 off-size penalty intact. Strongarm Bracers (MIC, 6000 GP) is much more effective at wielding larger-sized weapons.

I understand Monkey Grip completely, it's Shou Disciple that I didn't understand. Also, what does MIC stand for?

Demons_eye
2010-08-29, 09:38 AM
Magic Item Compendium

Urpriest
2010-08-29, 09:40 AM
I understand Monkey Grip completely, it's Shou Disciple that I didn't understand. Also, what does MIC stand for?

Magic Item Compendium

Mongoose87
2010-08-29, 09:45 AM
That doesn't help with Flurry, which is a class ability, not a weapon-specific feat.

Sure it does. You take the feats that make a weapon a Monk weapon, then you aptitude the ability to flurry over to your spiked chain.

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 10:14 AM
Sure it does. You take the feats that make a weapon a Monk waeapon, then you aptitude the ability to flurry over to your spiked chain.

Flurry wouldn't apply to an aptitude weapon because flurry is a class feature not a feat. You could possibly get your DM to house rule it (I mean, we are talking about monk after all. :smallwink:)

Mongoose87
2010-08-29, 10:21 AM
Flurry wouldn't apply to an aptitude weapon because flurry is a class feature not a feat. You could possibly get your DM to house rule it (I mean, we are talking about monk after all. :smallwink:)

1. You take the feat that lets you flurry with a non-monk weapon.

2. You grab an Aptitude spiked chain.

3. You use Aptitude to apply the feat to the spiked chain.

Prime32
2010-08-29, 11:06 AM
Hmm. I suppose another question that pertains to this could be asked. Are there any monk weapons that can be used with weapon finesse? Something with more than 1d4 damage?Unarmed strike.

true_shinken
2010-08-29, 11:34 AM
Hmm. I suppose another question that pertains to this could be asked. Are there any monk weapons that can be used with weapon finesse? Something with more than 1d4 damage?

Butterfly Sword is 1d6, IIRC

WinWin
2010-08-29, 11:49 AM
1. You take the feat that lets you flurry with a non-monk weapon.

2. You grab an Aptitude spiked chain.

3. You use Aptitude to apply the feat to the spiked chain.

Should also work with feats that allow stunning blow through monk weapons.

Mongoose87
2010-08-29, 12:14 PM
Should also work with feats that allow stunning blow through monk weapons.

That is correct. Aptitude weapons are awesome.

true_shinken
2010-08-29, 12:22 PM
That is correct. Aptitude weapons are awesome.

They are also obviously not intended to work that way.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-29, 12:28 PM
They are also obviously not intended to work that way.

If we ever got ToB Errata that didn't devolve into CMage halfway through, you'd almost certainly be right. As it stands....it's ambigious. I happen to believe you're right, that Aptitude is only applicable to feats that involve choosing a specific weapon, but the reading of them to apply to any feat applies to a specific weapon is fairly popular too.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-08-29, 02:01 PM
This has been very helpful, if what I read is true the Butterfly Sword can be used with weapon finesse so I will be useing that. Thanks for all your help.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-29, 02:05 PM
This has been very helpful, if what I read is true the Butterfly Sword can be used with weapon finesse so I will be useing that. Thanks for all your help.

A kusari-gama can be Weapon Finesse'd, dunno if it's a monk weapon by default.

kaptainkrutch
2010-08-29, 04:09 PM
A kusari-gama can be Weapon Finesse'd, dunno if it's a monk weapon by default.

If the name sounds Asian, you can safely assume that it's a monk weapon.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-29, 04:13 PM
Except for the Kusari-Gama. It's not a Monk weapon.

kaptainkrutch
2010-08-29, 04:19 PM
Except for the Kusari-Gama. It's not a Monk weapon.

Gah! Thwarted again!

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 04:21 PM
I would think that you would dip a level of monk to get proficiency in the monk weapons themselves, not to get the normal weapons. I mean, what's +1 or +2 damage worth anyway? The monk weapons are good for tripping and disarming as light weapons. Great for low BAB secondary/terciary flurry / TWF attacks for tripping or for disarming items. Both are easy even at low AB. Also helps against the big AB penalty.

And anyone who says the weapons with a bonus to disarm don't have a bonus to disarm gets an internet shot out of a cannon at them. If you really think this is technically true then it's obviously an oversight and you can houserule it if it makes you feel better... right after you finish banning pun pun and 1,000 other things that don't really need to be written down as house rules. The real world versions of the weapons and the builds on the WotC website seem to confirm this btw.

Greenish
2010-08-29, 04:32 PM
And anyone who says the weapons with a bonus to disarm don't have a bonus to disarm gets an internet shot out of a cannon at them.What, like sai or nunchaku? *gets shot by a cannon*

If you really think this is technically true then it's obviously an oversight and you can houserule it if it makes you feel better...It is technically true, and who can fathom what went through the heads of the developers when they were making PHB.

right after you finish banning pun pun and 1,000 other things that don't really need to be written down as house rules.What seems obvious to you might not be so for everyone, so I'd think before declaring that playing the weapon size rules on disarming is the same as allowing Pun Pun.

Were you trying to imply that everyone who plays differently is doing it wrong, or was that an accident?

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-29, 06:07 PM
Monks...

Dragon 346 has some alternate options that let you flurry of blows with some different weapons, like Warhammer, Flail, or Longsword.

Dragon 310 has a list of alternate weapons for monks.

Here is a page that has lots of alternate options for base classes. If there is any class that EVER needed massive cherrypicking from numerous alternate class features, it's monk!

http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf

Jack Zander
2010-08-29, 06:20 PM
Which PHB says sai don't grant a disarm bonus? Mine gives you a +4 bonus (although you do take a penalty for it being a light weapon).

Terazul
2010-08-29, 06:27 PM
Which PHB says sai don't grant a disarm bonus? Mine gives you a +4 bonus (although you do take a penalty for it being a light weapon).

Yeah, that's the thing. +4 Bonus, but -4 Penalty for being light. So Nil.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 06:31 PM
Yeah, that's the thing. +4 Bonus, but -4 Penalty for being light. So Nil.

Zero is still a boost over the regular -4.

SirLagsalot
2010-08-29, 06:35 PM
Warforged Battlefist? Can't be disarmed, unarmed damage at 1 size larger and adding the battlefist's enhancement bonus to to your unarmed strike.

*edit* (ECS pg. 268)

Jack Zander
2010-08-29, 06:45 PM
Zero is still a boost over the regular -4.

See, that's what I'm saying. You're still getting a +4 to the check. I don't think that was oversight at all. It lets you use a light weapon to disarm at no penalty. You think it's easy catching a greatsword with a tiny little sai and twisting it out of their hands?

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 07:09 PM
Historically sais were good at disarming and the WotC website implies that you can make a focused disarmer with monk weapons. But let's assume for a moment you have no idea what sais are for, that's understandable. Why would you bother when you could use a one handed weapon? Monks have no "off hand" for their flurry, and can get the same bonus from a quarterstaff. Why even take the time to write special rules for a sai at all? There's really no point. But, again, the real worlds weapons discussions pegged sais around two handed weapons for disarming, there's a WotC employee / article writer who made a "surprisingly effective" monk disarming master with no power qualms, and a monk NPC at wizards.com that reminds us that sais give a +4 to disarm so we don't have to remember the rule and yet never reminds us that light weapons get a -4.

I see it as akin to the "RAW" that drowning can bring you from -5 HP to 0 HP, except it's made slightly more confusing b/c you're talking to inland people who can't afford pools and have never seen a body of water and are saying "Well, I dunno, maybe water cleanses the wounds at that point or something". Maybe it's slightly confusing b/c you're not familiar with it and you can try to force an explanation, but WHAT?!!? No, just no. There's still absolutely no reason for such a thing to exist whether you understand it fully or not.

Jack Zander
2010-08-29, 09:04 PM
stuff

See, the way I see it, wizards weren't looking at what was mechanically balanced when they made most all weapons. They were going with what was more simulationist. Some weapons are historically better weapons for fighting with. I'm sure there is a good reason why every major medieval oriental battle didn't involve both sides using nothing but sais to disarm then stab their way through the battlefield. Because as good as a select few people were with using the exotic weapon, it simply wasn't the easiest thing to catch a weapon during combat and twist it out of someone's hands.

Personally, I don't think you should be able to even attempt to disarm unless you are unarmed or have a weapon with that use specifically in its design. From a purely simulationist point of view that is.

P.S. no disrespect intended for the edit of your quote. Just trying to cut down on the number of walls of text in the thread.

dextercorvia
2010-08-30, 07:56 AM
If you are dipping for melee, Warblade get's the Weapon Aptitude ability which will work in place of the aptitude enhancement with one of the Sarlona feats-- also maneuvers.

Person_Man
2010-08-30, 10:12 AM
Nekode and Steel Fins: Piss poor weapons, but can't be disarmed. Underdark.

Lajatang: Exotic double weapon. Complete Warrior.

Longstaff: Exotic double weapon. When using Combat Expertise or fighting defensively you can't be flanked. Complete Adventurer.

LansXero
2010-08-30, 10:17 AM
I think there were also some more weapons in the Arms & Equipment Guide, but I only remember the three-section staff off the top of my head.

Greenish
2010-08-30, 10:51 AM
the WotC website implies that you can make a focused disarmer with monk weapons.Yes, we know how WotC considers monks a strong class.

But let's assume for a moment you have no idea what sais are for, that's understandable. Why would you bother when you could use a one handed weapon? Monks have no "off hand" for their flurry, and can get the same bonus from a quarterstaff.Quarterstaff actually gets +4.
Why even take the time to write special rules for a sai at all? There's really no point.Flavour. Maybe they forgot their own rules, but that doesn't mean people playing by them are doing something wrong.

But, again, the real worlds weapons discussions pegged sais around two handed weapons for disarming, there's a WotC employee / article writer who made a "surprisingly effective" monk disarming master with no power qualms, and a monk NPC at wizards.com that reminds us that sais give a +4 to disarm so we don't have to remember the rule and yet never reminds us that light weapons get a -4.What WotC considers effective is rather questionable, and I can see why they would remind people when a weapon has special rules related to it without mentioning the generic rules.
I see it as akin to the "RAW" that drowning can bring you from -5 HP to 0 HPI do actually agree that it's a bit silly how the monk weapons defeat their own purpose, but really, it's not even close to the healing by drowning (which is, by the way, lethal) or Pun Pun. You're drawing false equivalencies here between not changing one rule and playing fully by RAW.

Sure, you may think that sai should be better for disarming and katanas shouldn't be just MW bastard swords, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't agree is wrong. :smallamused:

Telonius
2010-08-30, 11:14 AM
Edit: ninja'd