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Dornath
2010-08-29, 10:47 AM
Hey Playground!

I've just recently bought and devoured George RR Martin's series. A fantastic set of books. I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment, and I'm looking to input more of this world into my life.

So.... I'm thinking of buying the Song of Ice and Fire RPG game. But I'm a little wary. I don't want to spend money on a system that may suck, even if the setting is one of my favourites. Here's where you come in! If you've played the game, or even just own it and have read through the book, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know your thoughts and opinions of it.

Thanks!

JBento
2010-08-29, 11:31 AM
I've read it, though never played it. As such, I can't really recommend it, as a lot of things that look good (or bad) in paper fall apart as soon as they hit the game table.

It seems good, though YMMV on the flavour - though it appears it would be able to do a good job at replicating the SoIaF.

It's loaded with role-playing opportunities, but of course, role-playing isn't system dependent. Combat seems to be brutal and deadly - if your group is the kick in the door style, this isn't the system.

I took a whack at making a character - without playtesting, it seemed to be highly competent in melee and passable in social interaction.

It has mechanics for both combat and social challenges that seem both good and interesting.

It also has a bit of administration put in, as the characters are supposed to belong to a minor house, and have lands to take care of.

I'm a bit sad I never got around to play it :smallfrown:

People who played the system should be able to give you a more accurate take of the system, though.

Aroka
2010-08-29, 11:43 AM
The d20 game gets a lot of hate. I haven't played it, just read through the book, and there seem to be a lot of mechanics that make it more lethal than regular D&D, probably on par with Conan d20. It's still level- and class-based, though, which is a bad idea. The combat works out, ironically, because GRRM's ideas of arms, armor, and personal combat are D&D based (rotflmao @ razor-sharp swords cutting through mail and steel harness; the duel in the Eyrie is probably the worst offender). The game also includes notes for playing with Tri-Stat, so if you're familiar with that (from Tri-Stat BESM of Ex Machina, maybe), it might be worthwhile.

I'd just recommend getting your hands on The Riddle of Steel (for realistic and incredibly fun combat, with a nice focus on character drama), or using Mongoose's RuneQuest 2. Artesia: AKW would work well, too. TROS has the advantage of having a pretty good dramatic/abstract mass combat system in the Flower of Battle supplement. Pendragon would also work, obviously - after all, SOIAF is sort of a grim & gritty King Arthur story. None of those games are class- or level-based, which I consider an advantage for replicating a setting as gleefully, viciously realistic on the gritty stuff as SOIAF is.

JBento
2010-08-29, 11:56 AM
The one I read wasn't the d20 - not that I remember if d20s were involved, but there no classes or levels.

Aroka
2010-08-29, 11:58 AM
Ah, yeah, I'm thinking of the Guardians of Order game, not the Green Ronin. Not familiar with that one at all, actually - I'll have to look into it. Still recommend TROS as a known quantity (although it is hard to find).

The Rose Dragon
2010-08-29, 12:01 PM
(although it is hard to find)

This is possibly the understatement of the year, by the way.

Dornath
2010-08-29, 12:55 PM
I agree that a class system would be a horrible idea...

Hmm. I'll have to look for both versions then. My gaming group has also just started reading these (We're young, give us a break.) and there is some growing interest in learning new systems and games.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-08-29, 01:00 PM
I've just recently bought and devoured George RR Martin's series. A fantastic set of books. I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment
Welcome to the club. Sorry if the line's a bit long by now.

Dornath
2010-08-29, 06:10 PM
Welcome to the club. Sorry if the line's a bit long by now.

...do we at least get shirts?:smallfrown:

Satyr
2010-08-29, 11:57 PM
The Guardians of Order system isn't very good, that's true. The included Tri-Stat version which was printed in the appendix of the DeLuxe edition of said book however, is quite decent.
The Green Ronin version is in my opinion a lot worse than the D20 version. The rules are bland and quite boring by default, has several larger logical flaws and are just not very fun, which would make a bland and mediocre game to begin with; as a Song of Ice and Fire RPG it is just one big failure, and doesn't even try to capture the moot of the world (luck points to change one's fate and save your life in a Westeros campaign? Have you read the books?). Seriously, this is one of the most disappointing games I have ever wasted money on.

As a result, the official ASOIAF games are not worth it that one plays them; however, they fulfill a function as a book of ideas and such to use it with better systems.

I would recommend either Burning Wheel (for a low work conversion, as the human side of the game should cover Westeros very well), Gurps (for a more detailed and very thought-out conversion) or a Unisystem take on the whole plot (as a compromise). I have tried to do the latter, but other projects came in the way and so A Unisystem of Ice and Fire is pretty much a wwork in progress without progress.

silversnowe
2010-08-30, 12:33 AM
They have a free quickstart available.

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64701

Aroka
2010-08-30, 02:31 AM
This is possibly the understatement of the year, by the way.

There are a lot of ways to get your hands on out-of-print RPG books, fortunately - walking down to your FLGS is probably not one of them (although mine had everything but the damned core book, a few years after Driftwood disappeared, since the game only got like 1% of the attention it deserved).

Really, The Riddle of Steel is almost perfect off the bat. You don't need to do much of anything SOIAF-specific to it - not even create rules for homelands, since the whole "stat modifiers based on region of birth" thing doesn't make much sense to me for Westeros, and if you want to approximate it, just give NPCs characteristics to reflect it (for PCs, getting equal bonuses and penalties averages out to +0 difference anyway).

The combat system is the epitome of realistic, gruesome, tactical, fun, and challenging medieval hand-to-hand combat - it's not a game where you can sit there and go "I attack and hit for 3 damage," and the level of detail in the combat system is very customizable (I go full-out with the whole winding & binding and grappling "minigames" and complicated missile combat). Combatants are liable to receive sudden and permanently crippling injuries, or suffer a sudden case of dead as a doornail, and even milder wounds can take weeks to heal. (Wearing full harness will, naturally, alleviate this problem somewhat.)

The tech level is already right - all your late medieval favorite arms and armor. Flower of Battle has material for jousting and mass combat.

Just ditch the magic system and wing that part, let players purchase stuff like being a warg with a higher Race option at character creation.

The Companion can help you ditch the Spiritual Attribute system if you don't like drama infringing on harsh realism, but I think it's necessary for telling stories; but it wouldn't be that hard to just make all advancement dependent on training and experience in the relevant area instead. That supplement is full of ideas for tweaks in general - the new skill system is a must, for one.

Combine with the systemless sourcebook Fief or the loosely d20 (but rules-light) Medieval Magical Society for awesomeness.

valadil
2010-08-30, 09:10 AM
I GMed the d20 one. It had some cool ideas but needed a better editor. I think they suffered from a case of already knowing the rules when they read through the book to evaluate the rules. You really need someone with no background knowledge to read through these things to find ambiguities and inconsistencies.

Anyway here's what I remembered about it.

It gave rules for characters who had different places in the world. Yes, you can play the king. You can also play a filthy beggar. Having a high station is kinda like having a higher level adjustment or lower starting level (I can't remember which and it's probably neither, but it's something to that effect).

Social interaction rules were complicated. You'll need a cheat sheet. It was something to the effect of d20 + your level + your ranks + difference in your station, as a size mod (outcast was rank 0, king was rank 7, you multiply the station difference by 4), +- your reputation if applicable + influence points spent towards the target. And probably 3 more things I'm forgetting. And then there are the complicated interaction rules, like influencing someone who is under a third party's control.

Did I mention influence points? Every character gets an allotment of influence points. You can invest these in your relationships with people. So if you're trying to blackmail someone you'd spend those points to represent your social power over them. Influence points can also be put towards influencing a group. Ned Stark's regular dinners with house guards can be seen as influence towards House Stark. Now, what you're trying to do determines if you use your group influence or your individual influence. Stark giving commands to his men would use his house influence. Stark resisting being blackmailed by a guard who found Ned's love notes to Jon's mother would be a personal and private matter.

Combat is more deadly. Everyone gets a shock value which is based off their con score. If damage exceeds the shock value, you make a fort save or be stunned. I liked this rule. But it means that fort saves are much more valuable than everything else. I think I saw one will save in the book and no reflex saves. They weren't even trying to balance saving throws. I think it was just a leftover from d20. Maybe they were going to do more in the second book which never came out.

Anyway, that's what I remember from the system. As far as playing ASoIaF goes you're going to have to break away from the adventuring party mold. Otherwise you're just running D&D on a different map. I was prepared for this but my players had some trouble with it.

What we settled on was that they stayed in their castle (they played House Florent. One of the PCs was Lord Florent's second son who ended up in charge when Lord and First Son Florent went to Bitterbridge to support the Tyrells). They dealt with threats as they came in. This meant everybody could talk to each other (as opposed to my friend's AGoT game where the PCs were in different castles and had to communicate by raven).

They all had pet guards, which I gave out because I wanted everyone to have something to do in combat. There were situations when we couldn't get everyone into a scene though. For instance they couldn't figure out a way to get the knight a seat on their council meetings. The way I tried to deal with this was to have incoming notes and messages for everybody. Or NPCs. Every session I'd have on private message for each player. If that player was left out of a scene (or just looked bored and needed attention) I gave them their note. This definitely helped, but even still you need to make sure your players are comfortable with the possibility of sitting out for a scene or two.

TricksyAndFalse
2010-08-30, 12:07 PM
Stark resisting being blackmailed by a guard who found Ned's love notes to Jon's mother would be a personal and private matter.

If Jon's mom is who I think she is... EWW!

I believe Jon is actually the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Ned kept Jon's parentage secret as a promise to Lyanna because, at the time, everyone was keen to kill all the Targaryen children.

valadil
2010-08-30, 12:12 PM
If Jon's mom is who I think she is... EWW!

I believe Jon is actually the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Ned kept Jon's parentage secret as a promise to Lyanna because, at the time, everyone was keen to kill all the Targaryen children.

That's a cool theory and I've seen it before. I like it, but I'm not sure the books support it.

As far as my example goes, all the more reason for that to be squicky. They find out who mom is and have even more reason to blackmail Ned. That doesn't mean he did it, it just means they know who Jon's mom is and assume Ned is legit the father.

Aroka
2010-08-30, 09:41 PM
That's a cool theory and I've seen it before. I like it, but I'm not sure the books support it.

As far as my example goes, all the more reason for that to be squicky. They find out who mom is and have even more reason to blackmail Ned. That doesn't mean he did it, it just means they know who Jon's mom is and assume Ned is legit the father.

How could they find out who the mother is independently of finding out who the father is? And the support for Jon being Rhaegar's and Lyanna's is pretty massive, even just in the first book. "Bed of blood" is clear enough; Rhaegar is considered noble and honorable by absolutely everyone; the promise to Lyanna that's pretty much all Ned thinks about; and the fact he wanted to tell Jon something but never got to.

Now, Varys being Targaryen is a cool theory with little support.

Knaight
2010-08-30, 10:04 PM
I would recommend either Burning Wheel (for a low work conversion, as the human side of the game should cover Westeros very well), Gurps (for a more detailed and very thought-out conversion) or a Unisystem take on the whole plot (as a compromise). I have tried to do the latter, but other projects came in the way and so A Unisystem of Ice and Fire is pretty much a wwork in progress without progress.

Burning Wheel is just about ideal. That said, in ASoIF conversions, you don't need Artha. Gurps would work, but it doesn't fit it nearly as well, its more work for an inferior product. As for Unisystem, at that point why bother?

Satyr
2010-08-31, 03:28 AM
Burning Wheel is just about ideal. That said, in ASoIAF conversions, you don't need Artha. Gurps would work, but it doesn't fit it nearly as well, its more work for an inferior product. As for Unisystem, at that point why bother?

This is the point were subjective measures comes into play as well. I don't particularly like Burning Wheels. I know it is not a bad system, but for me, it is not a particularly enjoyable one.

And I think Gurps would work well, perhaps better than Burning Wheel. You don't have to bother with magic, because that's nothing which happens to appear in player character hands (okay, prophetic dreams and clairsentience/possession are possible exceptions). Then you make ample use of the Martial Arts rules; that's it. I don't even that it would be a lot of work. You just need to know the setting, everything else is pretty much self-explanatory.

And Unisystem - or at least the system I use based on the Unisystem - is the game which I find most easy to write for and have a lot of fun to play. It's not as formulaic as Gurps, and as such not as rigid, the game is still flexible enough to make fun and I find it easy to modify it.
Okay, by now I have changed the system significantly, and I could probably claim that it is a standalone game which was significantly inspired by the Unisystem, but that would feel too much like plagiarism to me.
The plan for the Unisystem ASOIAF book included the typical stuff I do with the Unisystem, in combination with a background and lifepath system heavily inspried by Artesia AKW.

And by the way: Harnmaster is probably another very good match for the setting.

Aroka
2010-08-31, 05:20 AM
AKW lifepath for the win.

I've actually been considering doing a SOIAF setting for it. The lineages and birth signs would be the most work; I'd like to keep the idea of lineages (because there does seem to be a lot of "family influence" in SOIAF characters), but the omens could be replaced with a lot more formative experiences (which might make the lifepaths even more interesting).

Then again, I'm already working on Imperial, Palatian, and Illian lineages for AKW from practically scratch, so why not?

I'd probably give each region (North, Iron Islands, Stormlands, Dorne, etc.) its own lineage table, each of which would include a Common lineage (possibly separate from a generic Noble lineage), specific House lineages, and in some cases unusual lineages (like Giant and First Men for the North, Rhoynar for Dorne, and so on).

Satyr
2010-08-31, 06:26 AM
I wanted a system which combines the advantages of a choice-based and random character creation to create something like a best of both worlds approach.
Players can choose most of their options for their characters - attributes, skills, and advantages - and then modify these choices with significant but not overwhelming influence on the character.

I thought of six cultures - Dornish, Andals, Northmen, Ironmen, Wildlings, and Seven Cities - with a little influence for the heritage and have some other influences on the characters.

But otherwise the characters consist of different cultural and professional templates (e.g. Iron Islands culture package + Mariner profession + Warrior profession + Noble Heritage profession to create the captain of a ship of the Iron Fleet; or a King's Landing culture package + Street Urchin background + rogue profession + ranger profession to create the average brother of the Nightwatch).

And then the character life through several events in their childhood, adolescence and professional life which then can change the event of the background to create a more unique and surprising character.

IdleMuse
2010-08-31, 07:10 AM
I played in a ten-week campaign of the d6 system, the Green Ronin one. It was... interesting, to say the least. The create-a-minor-house mechanic was fun, if number-crunchy, and same with character generation I think. Unfortunately, it suffered from balance issues; by the end of the campaign, we had already figured out massive exploits, and the high lethality of it was worrying. Our archer was more like a machine-gunner.

I liked the transparency between the physical and social combat systems. Once you understand one, you understand the other, they're the same side from the skills and defences used. 'Social hit points' is an interesting implementation.

Avaris
2010-08-31, 07:23 AM
I've also played the d6 system, and had a lot of fun with it. A word of warning though; the rules are fairly complex, so if something doesn't seem logical it's probably because you got something wrong :smalltongue: (I repeatedly had to (metaphorically) beat the gm round the head with the rulebook).

One thing I have to say though... once you get your head around it (which took a few sessions) the combat system is beautiful. A heavily armoured knight is easy to hit (being slow-moving) but the armour soaks damage, whereas someone unarmoured can ofen avoid being hit at all, but is dead if hit. Normally it is clear that one style of defence is better than the other, but in this case both seem fairly equally valid. In my experience this is a rare feat for an RP game, and seems an accurate depiction of medieval combat.

As for the not being a kick in the door system... my knight once shoulder barged his way through the wall of a peasant house and headbutted the surprised archer inside to death... does that count?

Aroka
2010-08-31, 09:11 AM
One thing I have to say though... once you get your head around it (which took a few sessions) the combat system is beautiful. A heavily armoured knight is easy to hit (being slow-moving) but the armour soaks damage, whereas someone unarmoured can ofen avoid being hit at all, but is dead if hit. Normally it is clear that one style of defence is better than the other, but in this case both seem fairly equally valid. In my experience this is a rare feat for an RP game, and seems an accurate depiction of medieval combat.

Not exactly - you see the same thing in Pendragon (seriously - knights almost double their DEX if unarmored), Artesia: AKW (although experienced characters with high Armor Training can just do both), The Riddle of Steel, and RuneQuest, at least: you can either choose to not get hit, or to not get hurt. Conan d20 even has this to a degree (although the separate Parry and Dodge defenses are mostly useless, since you only ever use the better one, except you always Dodge missiles).

I don't recall if GURPS has much of an armor encumberance mechanic, and even if it did, Passive Defense would mess with this to a degree (since in GURPS armor also helps you "not get hit", kind of, although it does sort of make sense).

Spiryt
2010-08-31, 09:25 AM
One thing I have to say though... once you get your head around it (which took a few sessions) the combat system is beautiful. A heavily armoured knight is easy to hit (being slow-moving) but the armour soaks damage, whereas someone unarmoured can ofen avoid being hit at all, but is dead if hit. Normally it is clear that one style of defence is better than the other, but in this case both seem fairly equally valid. In my experience this is a rare feat for an RP game, and seems an accurate depiction of medieval combat.


No, it's not accurate depiction of medieval combat.

Armor that's properly made doesn't make you really very slow, and you can avoid being hit quite normally, especially using your armor.

Anyone in even pseudo medievalish setting choosing to go battling unarmored, is the invention of RPG, cinema and general fiction.

Anyone who had even hit oneself with axe, or whatever, can "appreciate" the pain, shock, and imagine consequences. Including being dead and a cripple to the rest of his life.

People wear appropriate armor, if they only could afford it, and afford to have it in given situation - move in it to the battle and whatever.

And armored man will always have advantage over unarmored one, as long as bows, crossbows, swords and hammers are involved, in most situations.

Drizzt can do awesome jumping and stuff, rarely getting hit, and that's cool in D&D, but if system is supposed to be relatively "realistic" and gritty, unarmored combat shouldn't be balanced with armor.

Satyr
2010-08-31, 09:32 AM
the rules are fairly complex, so if something doesn't seem logical it's probably because you got something wrong

You mean something like using superior weapons mean that you have a lower chance to hit somebody is not somewhat illogical?
Besides, the lack of differentiation between social aspects and skills is just leveling and a lack of differentiation.
And that's a problem of the system in itself, before it comes to the conversion aspect.


I don't recall if GURPS has much of an armor encumberance mechanic, and even if it did, Passive Defense would mess with this to a degree (since in GURPS armor also helps you "not get hit", kind of, although it does sort of make sense).

Not in fourth edition; the only passive defense bonus you get there comes from shields or similar effects. And yes, there is an encumbrance mechanism in it, based on the sheer weight a character carries with him.

And the armor aspect was already explained by spiryt; speaking from a historical perspective, armor is one of the most decisive factor when it comes to a combat and is pretty much always way, way superior to not wearing armor balancing this is a pretty bad idea.

Aroka
2010-08-31, 09:36 AM
Not in fourth edition; the only passive defense bonus you get there comes from shields or similar effects. And yes, there is an encumbrance mechanism in it, based on the sheer weight a character carries with him.

That's probably better for realism, overall; DR already represents the "it glanced off" part of the mechanics, but shields are all about helping with the active defense (in melee).

Greenish
2010-08-31, 09:47 AM
the high lethality of it was worrying.That should be a boon in trying to imitate the books (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnyoneCanDie).

As for balance between unarmoured and armoured combatants, well, I shouldn't think armour has been invented and reinvented just for funsies.

valadil
2010-08-31, 10:09 AM
I wanted a system which combines the advantages of a choice-based and random character creation to create something like a best of both worlds approach.
Players can choose most of their options for their characters - attributes, skills, and advantages - and then modify these choices with significant but not overwhelming influence on the character.


Take a look at Dark Heresy. It's got a good blend of random character creation and a la carte options. Not really relevant for Game of Thrones though.



As for the not being a kick in the door system... my knight once shoulder barged kool-aid manned his way through the wall of a peasant house and headbutted the surprised archer inside to death... does that count?

Fixed that for you. Ohhhh yeah.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-08-31, 10:10 AM
Burning Wheel sounds like it would be a very good fit. It's all about the tension between your beliefs, your goals, your upbringing...it's all about creating dramatic tension through character struggle.

That fits ASoIaF like a glove, in my opinion.

Nick_mi
2010-08-31, 10:18 AM
Hey Playground!
I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment, and I'm looking to input more of this world into my life.

Thanks!

Good luck ,talks are in the works that the series may not be completed.