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View Full Version : Optimize me a Theurge!, or, I love Gouda!



WarKitty
2010-08-29, 10:48 AM
Ok, so I'm taking build advice.

Here's the starting setup: Bard and Cleric (pref. cloistered cleric but open to all cleric variants) going to Mystic Theurge. Entry as early as possible; alignment must be CG. Any and all deities are available. All WoTC 3.5 materials are fair game. Now I am well aware MT is not an optimal class. Which is where I'm taking playgrounder's advice. Given those requirements, what's the most optimized build you can create? No infinite loops, otherwise cheese away.

Edit: ABSOLUTELY NO messing with the base classes or the alignment restriction. I will throw a virtual book at your head.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-29, 11:25 AM
Does it have to be Cloistered Cleric? Because Theurging Ur-Priest and that fast-spell advancing Bard PrC is pretty awesome.

Or use mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217) and you can get in with CC 3/Bard 2, ending up with CL 17/17 casting (subtle advertising is my speciality :smallwink:)

Vizzerdrix
2010-08-29, 11:30 AM
Cleric2/Sorc1/Theurge10/Legacy Champ7. Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster should cover the spell needs, and I'm not 100% on Legacy Champ but it should advance Theurge.

Favored Soul might cut down MAD a bit too.

I think Druid3/Sorc1 would allow Arcane Heirophant(sp?). So you could go Druid3/Sorc1/MT3/AH10/MT3. Not too shabby either. you'd be able to have an animal companion as a 16th level druid with the right feat.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 11:30 AM
Does it have to be Cloistered Cleric? Because Theurging Ur-Priest and that fast-spell advancing Bard PrC is pretty awesome.

Or use mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217) and you can get in with CC 3/Bard 2, ending up with CL 17/17 casting (subtle advertising is my speciality :smallwink:)

Sorry I have an alignment restriction in place, so no ur-priest. The bardic casting is really the focal point if I have to advance one class higher than the other.

And yes I know other classes might be able to qualify, and that the entry has a bit of MAD - it's not too bad, I have decent stats and I want the INT skill points anyway.

WinWin
2010-08-29, 11:45 AM
If you use Illumian as your race, you can use early entry tricks.
Same with DMM on any race.

It all boils down to increasing the level of spells you cast with turn attempts to meet the 2nd level spells prerequisite.

Mind you, heightening spells in this manner increases the spell level without increasing the effective spell level. So it may not pass your DM's standards.

Analytica
2010-08-29, 11:59 AM
If I would build something optimized with bard and divine caster flavour, I would go:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer (dragon mag class) 5/Arcane Hierophant 10

Casts as a Bard 17/Druid 18, no levels have less than 4 skill points.

If you are dead set on cleric, and can use cheese...

Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Hierophant 10

This requires Alternate Spell Source to qualify for MT (you can prepare your cleric spells as arcane spells, so you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells) and Bamboo Spirit Folk for race to get into Arcane Hierophant. It gives you Bard 17/Cleric 19 casting, and I think slightly fewer skill points.

The first solution is completely legal RAW and RAI though. The other, slightly more iffy.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 12:05 PM
If I would build something optimized with bard and divine caster flavour, I would go:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer (dragon mag class) 5/Arcane Hierophant 10

Casts as a Bard 17/Druid 18, no levels have less than 4 skill points.

If you are dead set on cleric, and can use cheese...

Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Hierophant 10

This requires Alternate Spell Source to qualify for MT (you can prepare your cleric spells as arcane spells, so you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells) and Bamboo Spirit Folk for race to get into Arcane Hierophant. It gives you Bard 17/Cleric 19 casting, and I think slightly fewer skill points.

The first solution is completely legal RAW and RAI though. The other, slightly more iffy.

It needs a temple-y flavor, not just divine. I know druid is technically divine, but it's not really the same. My DM will let me slip a fair bit of cheese past the radar as long as I promise not to break the game's power level (especially since the primary reason for the cleric is so I can keep everyone else breathing and not enspelled).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-29, 12:33 PM
Sorry I have an alignment restriction in place, so no ur-priest. The bardic casting is really the focal point if I have to advance one class higher than the other.

And yes I know other classes might be able to qualify, and that the entry has a bit of MAD - it's not too bad, I have decent stats and I want the INT skill points anyway.

Your biggest problem with this idea is that most early entry tricks for MT either require Ur Priest or Wiz/Sorc to function properly (precocious Apprentice)

There was an UrPriest/Sublime Chord MT I made once that ended up with 9th level spells on both sides, but you said you didn't want MT...
Sublime Chord = Bard with Sorcerer casting. Fun stuff.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 12:37 PM
Your biggest problem with this idea is that most early entry tricks for MT either require Ur Priest or Wiz/Sorc to function properly (precocious Apprentice)

There was an UrPriest/Sublime Chord MT I made once that ended up with 9th level spells on both sides, but you said you didn't want MT...
Sublime Chord = Bard with Sorcerer casting. Fun stuff.

I'm not just looking for early entry tricks. I'm looking for anything - useful feats, races that offset penalties or give handy bonuses, etc.

Although I should have specified, my DM has approved Alternate Spell Source as qualifying for MT.

Edit: I presume you meant to say "you didn't want UrPriest." It's a no-evil campaign.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 12:37 PM
Your biggest problem with this idea is that most early entry tricks for MT either require Ur Priest or Wiz/Sorc to function properly (precocious Apprentice)

There was an UrPriest/Sublime Chord MT I made once that ended up with 9th level spells on both sides, but you said you didn't want MT...
Sublime Chord = Bard with Sorcerer casting. Fun stuff.

O.o what? She does want an MT.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-29, 01:04 PM
The Adaptation section of Ur-Priest recommends a non-evil variant where you worship a dead god. Would that work? You'd have to tweak the entry requirements slightly, but it would work.

Anyway, getting into MT as soon as possible: Illumian (RoD) Bard 2/Cleric 1 with Improved Sigil (Krau) (RoD) gets to treat two spells as one level higher than usual - choose a Bard spell and a Cleric spell, and you'll qualify for Mystic Theurge (assuming you have the Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion) requirements, which shouldn't be hard).

Ur-Priest or not, though, you're going to want to become a Sublime Chord. You'll need to get Perform and Listen as class skills - Apprentice (Entertainer) (DMG2) handles Perform, but Listen's harder (and more important) - Whispered Secrets (RoD) would be perfect, except you have to worship Vecna, who is Evil, and a Good Cleric can't do that. Draconic Heritage (RotD) is Sorcerer-only, so that doesn't work. Aerenal Focus is from Eberron and probably requires being an Aereni Elf, and Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana is supposedly from a variant (no real reason it can't be used in a normal game, though). Ask your DM about getting those as class skills; a reasonable DM should not have a problem with this.


Honestly, the correct way to do this would be to discuss a homebrew'd Bard/Cleric Theurge. Cheesing your way into classes that weren't designed for this (or weren't well-designed to begin with) is just not a great way to do this, IMO.

Adumbration
2010-08-29, 01:39 PM
You could try and use the Illumian Heighten trick to qualify early.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 04:36 PM
Grrr... tbh I was really hoping for feats, skill ideas, etc, not just what levels to take when. I posted this way because last time I got a bunch of "MT sucks take something else" answers and nothing actually useful. Or "Spontaneous casters suck be a wizard" or other stuff that requires messing with the character concept.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-29, 04:44 PM
Practised Spellcaster x2, one for each class. Less of an option and morbid a necessity if you ever want to use a spell that requires a Save.

Skills are pretty Wizardy so anything useful is cross class, which sucks since neither of your classes require high Int. Beyond Concentration invade you get surrounded nothing particularly important.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 04:44 PM
I don't know anything about optimizing, but this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873054/The_Mystic_Theurge_Handbook) looks like a decent guide.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-29, 04:57 PM
Practised Spellcaster x2, one for each class. Less of an option and morbid a necessity if you ever want to use a spell that requires a Save.
Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do anything for Save DCs, it only affects Caster Level (which isn't used for DCs).


Skills are pretty Wizardy so anything useful is cross class, which sucks since neither of your classes require high Int. Beyond Concentration invade you get surrounded nothing particularly important.
Yeah, pretty much, this. Mystic Theurge doesn't get worthwhile skills - look to Concentrate and Spellcraft, and then I guess you get some Knowledge skills.

You won't be very Bardic, at all, because you'll have very little Bardic Music, and you won't have any particularly Bard skills, leaving you with... a really weak Mystic Theurge.

Hence, I suggest homebrewing something that works better - has 6+Int skills, appropriate class skills, and advances Bardic Music. Otherwise, you're likely to be a Bard in name only.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-29, 04:59 PM
Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do anything for Save DCs, it only affects Caster Level (which isn't used for DCs).


...

Every single time I forget that <facepalm>

Tyndmyr
2010-08-29, 05:20 PM
Sanctum Spell would be my recommendation. Mind you, there's still a bit of a hump, as you only qualify while in your sanctum, but it is delightfully versatile, getting you the 2nd level in both casting classes with only a level each. Now, you still have the skill requirements to death with, but this lets you determine which is your primary class.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 05:23 PM
Once you reach a certain point of RAW-bending cheese, you have to ask yourself why not just gestalt an arcane and divine casting class and call it a day.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 05:26 PM
Once you reach a certain point of RAW-bending cheese, you have to ask yourself why not just gestalt an arcane and divine casting class and call it a day.

Because I have a newbie DM that is very good at building incredibly complex ideas and not so good at figuring out advanced stuff like gestalt or homebrew, so I'd rather not keep coming to him with can I do x or y.

That and the only reason I'm cheesing in the first place is so I can be reasonably competent rather than completely sucky. I'm not trying to break the game, I'm trying to build a character that can hold its own against a moderately optimized single-classed caster in a mid-level game. I like the flavor of a character that combines arcane and divine casting, just not the way it works out.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-29, 05:30 PM
Early entry should be enough for that. Consider what you plan to do when MT ends, though. Most DMs are ok with simply extending the class, as it's not like MT has a great deal of class features to deal with.

Plus, if you're only a single CL behind on one of your classes, you can get away with only taking practiced spellcaster once.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 05:31 PM
You don't want to confuse him/her with gestalt, but you're confident he/she can figure out rules bending cheese? O.o
I don't see that, but ok fair enough. You're the one that knows him/her. :smallsmile:

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-29, 05:33 PM
Divine Bard is on the SRD under variant classes. Basically a Bard that except their spells are Divine.

Maybe look into just playing one of them since it fits te flavour you seem to be going for.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-29, 05:37 PM
Alternatively, straight bard into the PrC of your choice, with extra spell once or twice along the way to pick up signature healing spells.

Not the same as cleric/bard dual progression, but if the big need is a party healer, that can definitely be done.

Draz74
2010-08-29, 05:37 PM
If somewhat liberal interpretations of Alternate Spell Source have already been OK'ed, could you just make a Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard)? Mix in Virtuoso or Sublime Chord if desired. You need some way to get Perform as a class skill; if nothing else, you could use a couple levels of Half-Elf Paragon.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 05:41 PM
DM doesn't actually look at or care about cheese as long as I tell him it's legal and it'll work. Unfortunately I'm in a rather tough spot building this character, as the concept comes from a different system. I'd really rather not redo the character too much, I've gotten rather attached to her - but it's very hard to make the concept work in 3.5. The original character was a bardess that joined a temple later on. She had two main sets of abilities, one was the ability to charm people and animals, the other was healing. I've looked at the divine bard but it doesn't seem to fit, mostly because of the switch to wisdom-based casting on what was built as a Cha>Int>Dex>Wix character.

Draz74
2010-08-29, 05:49 PM
OK, so you want to stay focused on Charisma-based casting. That kills the Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Bard. And no one has been able to come up with any other really good way to combine Cleric and Bard.

Why, exactly, do you need Cleric at all? A pure Bard should be able to function just fine as a temple-flavor priest. Just give him a lot of Knowledge (religion) and other cleric-friendly skills, and say his magic comes from a deity. If his magic doesn't actually come from a deity (via refluffing), give him enough Bluff and Disguise to fake it.

(Side note: Favored Soul is not as good as Cleric overall, but at least it's a genuine Charisma-based divine caster. Well, it has some Wisdom dependence too, but a lot less.)

Marnath
2010-08-29, 05:50 PM
If you just wanted to be a healer.... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 05:55 PM
Hmmm...my main gripe is that I want access to healing spells past just the cure line, and access to the protection/magic circle line. If there's any good way to get those I'd be happy. We're high enough level that healing goes well past simply casting cure spells over and over.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 05:58 PM
Wands of lesser vigor and healing belts would be a good start. You can even use your healing belts charges on someone else I beleive, which gives all party members a limited ability to step into your shoes. And the rogue can probably umd your wand if you are down.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 06:02 PM
Wands and belts...just sort of ugh. I don't want healing because "the party needs a healer." I want healing because it's part of the character. Especially the restoration and resurrection lines (along with magic circle, like I said).

Urpriest
2010-08-29, 06:02 PM
If you just want Cleric for the cool SpC healing spells, the magic circle line, etc...

Is the temple you're aligned with fixed? Or might you, for example, have been trained in the secret temple of the couatls? Rainbow Servant isn't a horrible choice for bards, and grants you all those spells, including the magic circle line as an earlier class feature that most people ignore.

WarKitty
2010-08-29, 06:06 PM
If you just want Cleric for the cool SpC healing spells, the magic circle line, etc...

Is the temple you're aligned with fixed? Or might you, for example, have been trained in the secret temple of the couatls? Rainbow Servant isn't a horrible choice for bards, and grants you all those spells, including the magic circle line as an earlier class feature that most people ignore.

I totally never considered that class. Yes, that looks perfect with a bit of refluffing. Particularly since her backstory contained some trace of outsider blood.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-29, 06:39 PM
I totally never considered that class. Yes, that looks perfect with a bit of refluffing. Particularly since her backstory contained some trace of outsider blood.

Just beware the Text vs Table arguments... Text says spellcasting is advanced every level, Table says you loose four caster levels. Define in advance which one your GM wants to run with ahead of time.

I would still suggest getting into Sublime Chord.... here's a build:

Bard8/Rainbow Servant2/Sublime Chord1/Rainbow Servant8/Sublime Chord 1

You end up with:

Casting 8th level Sorcerer spells (or 9th, depending on text vs table debate)

Still a Bard, with all the Bardic things you love to do, and you keep all your Bard spells as well

Access to every Cleric spell in the game (from capstone of Rainbow Servant) and Circles from class abilities earlier than that

Here's how you do it:

The feat Able Learner lets you retain skills as class skills, however it has to be taken at 1st level, and you must be a Human to get it. Well, Humans are never a bad choice to begin with, and get a bonus feat you can use to get Able Learner. That lets you pick up all 13 ranks in Listen by level 10.

Marnath
2010-08-29, 06:42 PM
Considering the DM is new, I bet warkitty can present the more beneficial view and have it approved easy.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-29, 07:32 PM
Rainbow Servant as a 10/10 caster is overpowered in the case of full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage), arguably overpowered in the case of prepared spellcasters (Wizard, Wu Jen), and decent but very much not overpowered for spontaneous spellcasters with limited spells known (Bard, Sorcerer, etc.)

Rainbow Servant as a 6/10 caster is underpowered, no matter who you are.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-30, 12:02 AM
Hmmm...my main gripe is that I want access to healing spells past just the cure line, and access to the protection/magic circle line. If there's any good way to get those I'd be happy. We're high enough level that healing goes well past simply casting cure spells over and over.

Healer, from miniature's handbook. It's wis for minimum spell level and bonus spells, but cha for DCs and for the healing bonuses. If you have solid cha, they're actually really quite good at healing, and they have access to the other healing spells, such as restoration. Really quite short on offense, but that's not a big deal when dual classing.

It also avoids the problem of spont classes, ie, the slower progression, which is pretty rough when you already have to deal with MT. One side of that is plenty.

Edit: Text always trumps table. It's the rule. A good thing too, or there'd be random silliness every time WoTC mistypes a table.

Draz74
2010-08-30, 01:51 AM
Rainbow Servant as a 6/10 caster is underpowered, no matter who you are.

Eh, maybe not if you combine it with rapid-advancement PrCs like Sublime Chord.

dextercorvia
2010-08-30, 07:46 AM
Eh, maybe not if you combine it with rapid-advancement PrCs like Sublime Chord.

You still wouldn't get nines pre-epic.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-30, 08:39 AM
Eh, maybe not if you combine it with rapid-advancement PrCs like Sublime Chord.
No, it's still underpowered. If you're entering from an overpowered entry, it may wash, but the Rainbow Servant is still underpowered.

Personally, I think the most meaningful - often the only - way to judge PrC balance is to compare it to what the entry class would have gotten instead.

dextercorvia
2010-08-30, 09:30 AM
Maybe if Rainbow Servant provided full list casting for the spells it puts on your list. Even if you early entry RS like Bard3/RS7/SC2/RS+3/X+5, (which would get you nines pre-epic -- barely), you have to use up SC spells known for RS spells. At that point, I'd just take arcane disciple once or twice (replacing the feats required for early entry) and get the couple of cleric spells I wanted anyway.

Draz74
2010-08-30, 11:18 AM
No, it's still underpowered. If you're entering from an overpowered entry, it may wash, but the Rainbow Servant is still underpowered.

Personally, I think the most meaningful - often the only - way to judge PrC balance is to compare it to what the entry class would have gotten instead.

Eh, fair enough. Yes, Rainbow Servant itself is still underpowered in that case.

I posted late at night and was forgetting that Sublime Chord can't get started until Level 11. Losing four caster levels still might not hurt at all if you use a rapid-advancement PrC that also starts earlier. For example, if there was an arcane version of Ur-Priest, then Something 6 / Arcane-Ur 4 / Rainbow Servant 10 would still get full casting even with 6/10 casting progression on RS.

EDIT: Another random thought for the OP. If Charisma focus is all you really care about for the Bard side of your build (which I doubt), then another crazy build you could do, to get a Charisma-based healer, is Wilder/Sangehirn.