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TechnOkami
2010-08-29, 07:00 PM
The title says it all. I'd like a link to the original build of the diplomancer, since I have no idea where it is.

Zeta Kai
2010-08-29, 10:25 PM
There isn't a specific build for Diplomancy, just as there isn't a specific Batman-Wizard build. It's a conceptual family of builds which works toward reaching the same goal: utter pwnage of the Diplomacy rules to make everything with an INT>3 your loving friend, whether they like it (or it would even make sense) or not.

That being said, the Giant himself discusses the exploitable problems with Diplomacy here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). In that article, you can find the following quote under section #1 of Surveying the Rule:


It has a flat DC that is too low; a 2nd level bard turning a hostile character to indifferent is DC 25; seems "tough, but doable". But it's actually child's play. With a 16 Charisma, 5 ranks in Diplomacy, 5 ranks in Bluff (which grants a +2 synergy bonus), and 5 ranks in Sense Motive (which also grants a +2 synergy bonus), and (new in 3.5!) 5 ranks of Knowledge (nobility) (which yes, ALSO grants a +2 synergy bonus), the 2nd level bard already has a +14 and only needs a 11 or better to succeed. And that's without spending a feat on Skill Focus (Diplomacy) or Persuasive. Now here's the real problem: at 11th level, that same bard will have 9 more ranks in Diplomacy and probably at least an extra +1 from Charisma; he can now succeed on a roll of 1, which means he doesn't have to roll. He can automatically turn all hostile people indifferent by talking to them. He has 9 more levels of adventuring before he goes epic, but he can already make every enemy he meets apathetic to his existence.

So, if you follow the bard route above, you should be charming beholders, kings, & assassins in no time.

Zaydos
2010-08-29, 10:34 PM
Level 1 Marshal (Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Motivate Charisma Aura).
Level 2 some better class with Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nob & Royal) on its class skill list; preferably Cha focused (Bard).

Get a +25 and you only need a 10 to make someone indifferent as a full-round action (it's a -10 to do so, normally the check is 1 minute). Put your highest stat possible in Charisma, get a Crown of Persuasion (+3 Competence bonus to Charisma checks and skills) if you can't get a custom item of diplomacy. Play a half-elf (+2 to Diplomacy) while you're at it.

Assuming 18 starting charisma:
Lv 1: Persuasive (feat), Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (marshal bonus feat), +4 (Motivate Charisma), 4 ranks. +19.
Lv 2: +6 synergy, 5 ranks. +26.
By Lv 8 you ought to be able to afford a Crown of Persuasion and/or a +2 Cha item and have +36 or +37. Congratulations, by level 8 if it has a language and can understand you, you can take 6 seconds to make it not care about your existence. On a 1.
Throw in a level of Mindbender for Telepathy and now you don't even have to speak the same language.

Diplomacy breaks games.

PId6
2010-08-29, 10:53 PM
One I made at ECL 5 for both Bluff and Diplomacy optimization:


Venerable Half-Elf Cloistered Cleric 1/Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Incarnate 1

Ability: 18 Cha + 3 Age + 1 Level + 2 Enhancement = 24 Cha
Flaws: Noncombatant, Murky-Eyed
Traits: Illiterate (Bluff), Polite
Skills: Bluff 8, Diplomacy 8, Knowledge (Royalty) 5, Sense Motive 5, 2 ranks in Literacy, rest in every Speak Language ever
Feats: Sacred Vow , Nymph's Kiss [BoED], Complementary Insight [RoD], Skill Focus (Diplomacy) [Bonus], Skill Focus (Bluff)
[B]Stuff: Community Domain [SpC], Trickery Domain, Knowledge Domain, Motivate Charisma aura [MH], Beguiling Influence invocation [CA], Silvertongue Mask soulmeld [MoI], Naberius vestige [ToM]
Items: Circlet of Persuasion [4,500 gp], Cloak of Charisma +2 [4,000], Masterwork Tools of Bluff [50 gp], Masterwork Tools of Diplomacy [50 gp]

Bluff:
8 ranks
+7 Charisma
+7 Motivate Charisma
+4 insight Silvertongue Mask
+2 circumstance Nymph's Kiss
+3 Skill Focus
+6 Beguiling Influence
+1 Illiterate
+3 competence Circlet of Persuasion
+2 circumstance Masterwork Tools
Able to take 10 (Naberius)
= 53

Diplomacy:
8 ranks
+7 Charisma
+7 Motivate Charisma
+9 synergy (Complementary Insight)
+4 insight (Silvertongue Mask)
+2 racial
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Community Domain
+2 circumstance Nymph's Kiss
+6 Beguiling Influence
+1 Polite
+2 perfection Sacred Vow
+3 competence Circlet of Persuasion
+2 circumstance Masterwork Tools
Able to take 10 and use as standard action without penalty (Naberius)
= 68

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 11:00 PM
And now you know why you can never say no to certain NPCs. :smallwink:

ericgrau
2010-08-29, 11:09 PM
IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 11:12 PM
IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

So you make your players actually roleplay it out? You fiend! :smallwink:

DementedFellow
2010-08-29, 11:13 PM
If you are ever going to try to get a diplomancer in-game, then my advice is not to dip into too many classes, as it draws attention. A DM is more apt to take a bluff-focused build and if you concentrate on that more early on, he'll forget about the diplomacy.

Then at a pivotal moment throw it out there. Use it as a backup weapon to surprise even your DM. Otherwise, be prepared to fight a lot of constructs and undead.

averagejoe
2010-08-29, 11:14 PM
Does synergy stack? They're same-named bonuses, and I've yet to come across any rules provision that specifically stacks synergy bonuses. How is this justified?

DementedFellow
2010-08-29, 11:17 PM
It's not really a "synergy" bonus, rather an unnamed bonus that skill synergy provides. It's unnamed and applies.

averagejoe
2010-08-29, 11:21 PM
Ah, so it is.

cupkeyk
2010-08-29, 11:23 PM
Isn't there a bard PRC that weaponizes Diplomacy, or at least allows it to become a standard action supernatural ability to prevent an opponent to act hostile?

PId6
2010-08-29, 11:24 PM
Isn't there a bard PRC that weaponizes Diplomacy, or at least allows it to become a standard action supernatural ability to prevent an opponent to act hostile?
Half-elf bard substitution level from RoD.

El Dorado
2010-08-29, 11:27 PM
I pointed my DM to that article's revised Diplomacy skill and he implemented it in our game. He seems to like it. Don't know how it would fare against a Diplomancer.

Hirax
2010-08-29, 11:28 PM
Isn't there a bard PRC that weaponizes Diplomacy, or at least allows it to become a standard action supernatural ability to prevent an opponent to act hostile?

This brought to mind the Evangelist PrC for me.

Jallorn
2010-08-29, 11:51 PM
1 level of Warlock will net you +6 to Diplomacy. (and bluff and intimidate, but that's beside the point)

TechnOkami
2010-08-30, 12:03 AM
...there's an actual Giant in the Playground... D: ...please don't eat me...'

And YFI: I'm not interested in becoming a diplomancer. My girlfriend who plays a vampire and plans to go bard with Master of Masks however, does, or at least wants to do something along those lines.

Draz74
2010-08-30, 02:08 AM
Classes that are good for Diplomancers:


Marshal: double your Charisma bonus (which eventually becomes huge), and gain Skill Focus (diplomacy) as a bonus feat.
Binder: take 10 on Diplomacy checks, and more importantly, make Diplomacy checks as a standard action without penalty in combat. The class doesn't actually give you a higher bonus to your Diplomacy check, but at least it does have it as a class skill, as well as some of the synergy skills.
Warlock/Dragonfire Adept: both have an Invocation that will give you a +6 bonus to Diplomacy. DFA seems like a better class to me, for a Diplomancer; it gains more skill points and has more Diplomacy-supporting skills on its class skill list.
Bard: Despite having all the skills that the Diplomancer cares about, Bard isn't actually anything special to a Diplomancer, unless you are playing Core-only or using Half-Elf racial substitution levels. Although if you like Bluff, too, Glibness is always tasty.
Psion (telepath): an often-overlooked option. It has social skills on its class skill list, but the main real benefit here is the bonus feat at Level 1: pick Psicrystal Affinity and choose the Psicrystal personality that grants an additional +3 Diplomacy. It's like being able to take Skill Focus twice (and as a bonus feat each time). Not to mention, you can always pick Powers that fit thematically with the Diplomancer, like Attraction (additional Diplomacy bonuses if target fails a Will save), or Charm, or communication powers like Mindlink or Psionic Tongues. (The latter is better than arcane Tongues, but does require three levels of Psion rather than just a dip.)
Incarnate: Silvertongue Mask. And essentia to power it.
Exemplar: This one is actually disappointing, for a skill-focused and Diplomacy-focused class; +4 Competence Bonus is useless for a Diplomancer with good equipment choices, and Taking 10 with Skill Mastery is lame compared to what the Binder option can do at Level 1. Exemplar only actually shines if you do some crazy optimization on some other skill and use it to replace your Diplomacy checks, a la Jumplomancer hilarious cheese.
Uncanny Trickster: the Social Recovery skill trick is decent for a Diplomancer with half-decent Bluff skill, just because it lets him reroll a failure. For a Diplomancer with super-optimized Bluff skill (e.g. Glibness), it's amazing. This PrC lets you use it twice per encounter, rather than just once.
Rogue: Semi-noteworthy if you're a Changeling and take the racial substitution level.


Am I missing any more Diplomancer powerhouse classes?

ericgrau
2010-08-30, 02:14 AM
Ah in that case you want:
Skills: Diplomacy, bluff, disguise, speak language
Spells: charm person, disguise self*, hypnotism, alter self*, calm emotions, detect thoughts, suggestion, charm monster, glibness, dominate person, modify memory, dream, nightmare, seeming, mass charm monster, veil

Maybe some illusions too: silent image*, ventriloquism*, major image*, mislead, project image
Maybe: comprehend languages*, tongues*

* Also works well on scrolls or wands, to help save her spells known.

A good DM helps too, one who won't draw up a fight, drop in the PCs and monsters and say "go at it". Instead one that will give you a chance to approach the enemies and find alternate means to handle them.

Morph Bark
2010-08-30, 05:14 AM
There isn't a specific build for Diplomancy, just as there isn't a specific Batman-Wizard build. It's a conceptual family of builds which works toward reaching the same goal: utter pwnage of the Diplomacy rules to make everything with an INT>3 your loving friend, whether they like it (or it would even make sense) or not.

That being said, the Giant himself discusses the exploitable problems with Diplomacy here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). In that article, you can find the following quote under section #1 of Surveying the Rule:



So, if you follow the bard route above, you should be charming beholders, kings, & assassins in no time.

You know, that makes me think... is it explicitly stated somewhere that synergy bonuses stack? Because bonuses of the same type, unless untyped, don't stack together. If synergy bonuses (which seem to be clearly typed) don't explicitly stack, well... that's that.

DementedFellow
2010-08-30, 05:27 AM
You know, that makes me think... is it explicitly stated somewhere that synergy bonuses stack? Because bonuses of the same type, unless untyped, don't stack together. If synergy bonuses (which seem to be clearly typed) don't explicitly stack, well... that's that.

This has already been answered in this section, but fine, I'll quote the FAQ.


The text for synergy under the Diplomacy skill on page
72 of the PH states: “If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff,
Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get
a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.” I’m assuming that
means if a character has 5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge
(nobility and royalty), and Sense Motive that the character
would receive only a +2 synergy bonus on Diplomacy
checks. Or would the character receive a +6 synergy bonus
(+2 for each)?
The bonuses listed in the synergy section of a skill
description are unnamed and so they stack. (There’s no such
thing as a synergy bonus in the current edition of the D&D
game.) The character in your example would receive a +6
bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Kaww
2010-08-30, 06:58 AM
IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

I agree with you but you can take a -10 to the check and make it a full round action...

I get around that by saying to my players: "He is just not listening to you."
They know that actually means "No, not this time."

Besides, diplomacy does require the other side to listen to your proposal, so have a lot of deaf opponents :smallwink:...

dextercorvia
2010-08-30, 07:43 AM
@Draz74

Note: Bard has Speak Language as a class skill. Combined with the 6 skill points makes it a great choice to take at first level.

Person_Man
2010-08-30, 09:54 AM
Am I missing any more Diplomancer powerhouse classes?

Binder is even better then you give him credit for. In addition to being a Cha based class with access to the awesome Naberius vestige (Continuous Disguise Self, Command at will, take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff, can make rushed Diplomacy check as a Standard Action with no penalty, fast healing of ability damage in case you want to use drugs to buff yourself further) at level 1, several other vestiges grant bonuses to social Skills and other goodies that a party face would want, like Telepathy, Speak With Dead, Bardic Knowledge, and Suggestion.


In addition, here are a few other things people might find helpful:


Smooth Talk feat: When you rush a Diplomacy check, you only take a -5 penalty (instead of the normal -10). Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 43.

Sociable Personality feat: You can reroll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check. Requires that you be a Half Elf. Races of Destiny pg 153.

Spirit Sense: Let’s you see an interact with spirits of the recently dead (basically a continous Speak with Dead spell). “Sorry that we had to ambush you, but could you tell us your master’s weaknesses?” “Are you kidding me, you just killed me.” “Please? (My Diplomacy check is 52.) “Fine, fine. He’s vulnerable to fire.” Heroes of Horror pg 124.

Undead Empathy: You can use Diplomacy to effect mindless undead. Eberron Campaign Setting pg. 61.

Vow of Peace: Continuous Calm Emotions aura. A bonus to AC and Diplomacy. And if a creature strikes you with a manufactured weapon, the weapon must make a Fort Save or shatter. And Vow of Nonviolence (prereq) boosts the Save DC of many abilities by +4. The down side is that you have to vow never to harm any living creature, and your party has some strict roleplaying restrictions as well. Requires Sacred Vow, Vow of Non-Violence. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 48.

Amulet of Aberrant Empathy: You can use a Handle Animal check in place of a Diplomacy check to influence the attitude of aberrations of 9 Int or lower. 1,400 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 132.

Amulet of Peace: Twice per day you can replace your AC with a Diplomacy check for 1 round. 5,000 gp, Secrets of Sarlona pg 139.

Choker of Eloquence: +5 or +10 competence bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform (sing) Skills. 6,000 gp or 24,000 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 132.

Mask of Lies: Disguise Self (+10 Disguise) at will, continuous Undetectable Alignment, and a +5 Competence bonus to Bluff. 17,000 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 134.

Medal of Gallantry: +2 unnamed bonus Diplomacy, -2 Bluff, and Sanctuary 3 times per day as a Swift Action. Comp Adventurer pg 134.

Pendant of Dragon Empathy: You can use a Handle Animal check in place of a Diplomacy check to influence the attitude of dragons of 11 Int or lower. 3,300 gp, Comp Adventurer pg 134.

Ring of Truth Telling: Detect Thoughts and Zone of Truth. Champions of Valor pg 69.

Wild Empathy: Although not as easy to buff as Diplomacy, you can still get it quite high with various magic items and soulmelds. Can be used to change the opinions of Animals and Magical Beasts with an Int of 1 or 2. A Beast Heart Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4). 1 level grants the Monstrous Empathy ability, which allows you to effect magical beasts regardless of their Intelligence. There's also the Scorpion Wraith (Secrets of Xen'drik) which allows you to treat Vermin as Magical Beasts for Wild Empathy.


Having listed all that, I have yet to encounter a DM who used the RAW Diplomacy rules. My groups all use some variation on "I'm the DM, you can use social Skills when the person might actually listen, and I set a reasonable DC, and your check is modified by how well you roleplay." So just before combat is usually ok (especially if you throw your weapons down or otherwise lull them into a false sense of security), but not if you're ambushed or in the midst of combat.

HamHam
2010-08-30, 10:42 AM
For an example of a Diplomancer in action, go watch Doctor Who.

Zaydos
2010-08-30, 10:47 AM
For an example of a Diplomancer in action, go watch Doctor Who.

Obviously they aren't playing by RAW diplomacy rules, though. He fails at it too often (if they were the Daleks would never say Exterminate again).

Lapak
2010-08-30, 11:57 AM
Obviously they aren't playing by RAW diplomacy rules, though. He fails at it too often (if they were the Daleks would never say Exterminate again).I'd call him a psuedo-Diplomancer who focused on Bluff, actually. He can convince anyone of anything... at least momentarily. Then the rest of his abilities kick in while they're distracted.

Zaydos
2010-08-30, 12:04 PM
I'd call him a psuedo-Diplomancer who focused on Bluff, actually. He can convince anyone of anything... at least momentarily. Then the rest of his abilities kick in while they're distracted.

I'd actually agree, although I still say they aren't using RAW diplomacy (I only know one person who advocated RAW diplomacy and then only when playing; he also claimed +6 synergy bonuses at Lv 1 in 3.0).

DeltaEmil
2010-08-30, 12:13 PM
For extra ownage, try the Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious), which Draz74 already mentioned.

Mongoose87
2010-08-30, 12:14 PM
My favorite is still the not-to-be-mentioned-plomancer.

thompur
2010-08-30, 12:46 PM
Just because you get a good diplomacy roll against someone, it doesn't mean your party is out of the woods, only you are.
Example:

BBEG: "I WILL TORTURE YOU ALL TO DEATH! SLOWLY, PAINFULLY!"

DIPLOMANCER: "I say old chap, be a good fellow."(rattle rattle rattle: diplomacy check of 58)

BBEG: Very well, I won't destroy you all. I like you. You I'll keep around as my personal slave and court jester. As for the rest of your party, as a favor to you, because I like you, I will kill them quickly and painlessly,relatively."

Doug Lampert
2010-08-30, 01:12 PM
IMO the simple answer to turning every hostile monster indifferent is "that's not diplomacy". First you need to be able to sit down and talk, and even then a diplomat who has united countries still cannot sweet talk enemies into being friends without bringing something to the discussion table. But if you can make an appealing deal and find a way to get the monster to stop and talk then, okay, fine let the silver tongued PCs have an automatic success, or 50% success at low levels.

But it is EXACTLY AND PRECISELY what the skill is defined to do in the game.

The rules are totally clear on this. There's NOTHING AT ALL in the skill description about offereing a deal or deal making or anything else. It changes attitudes. What you've done is NOTICE that the Giant's alternate rules are actually far better. So what you should do if you are GM is simply implement them and TELL THE PLAYERS that you have done so, since the rules for skills the characters can use should actually be known to the players.


So you make your players actually roleplay it out? You fiend! :smallwink:

Do they also have to roleplay out a Dominate Monster by actually casting the spell? Because Dominate Monster actually gives the target MORE and BETTER resistance than diplomacy as written.


I agree with you but you can take a -10 to the check and make it a full round action...

I get around that by saying to my players: "He is just not listening to you."
They know that actually means "No, not this time."

Besides, diplomacy does require the other side to listen to your proposal, so have a lot of deaf opponents :smallwink:...

If you're going to change the rules to fix a broken rule (which diplomacy is), then CHANGE THE RULE, don't just arbitrarily say "that doesn't work" without giving the player any chance to know what does work.

Deaf doesn't help. PCs can get telepathy if they need it.

The rule is broken. THIS SITE has a fix posted by the Giant. Fix the rule. Don't just houserule everytime someone tries to do EXACTLY WHAT A DIPLOMATIC CHARACTER WOULD DO and thus acts in character and according to the ruleset you said you were using at the start of the session.


Just because you get a good diplomacy roll against someone, it doesn't mean your party is out of the woods, only you are.
Example:

BBEG: "I WILL TORTURE YOU ALL TO DEATH! SLOWLY, PAINFULLY!"

DIPLOMANCER: "I say old chap, be a good fellow."(rattle rattle rattle: diplomacy check of 58)

BBEG: Very well, I won't destroy you all. I like you. You I'll keep around as my personal slave and court jester. As for the rest of your party, as a favor to you, because I like you, I will kill them quickly and painlessly,relatively."

Except for the part where the rules DEFINE what a friendly attitude means, and it involves stuff like helping you and not wanting to hurt you.

And the rules also define indifferent, and it's fine.

And the EPIC skill rules are accessible from level 1 (it's in the rules, everything else epic needs epic characters, but the skills are explicitely usable at any level if you can hit the DCs). And diplomancers start getting GODS to be fanaticly loyal followers at level 5 or so BtB. The BBEG isn't a problem for that.

This is pretty much straight out equal to having AT WILL Dominate Monster with no save and no SR and not counting as an attack for things that trigger when attacked.

FIX THE RULE! Don't come up with 50,000 different broken excuses for why the broken skill doesn't function as it is clearly written to do. Fix the actual broken rule. The game designers SCREWED UP. Big time.

They screwed up in 3.0 and then made it WORSE in 3.5. It's obvious that they screwed up to anyone who actually thinks about the rule they wrote. Making up excusses (oh, you're in a hurricane so he can't hear you and he's in an antimagic field that blocks your telepathy) is a horrible example of treating the symptoms while ignoring the desease, and given where we are that's really unforgivable since the best fix I'm familiar with is ON THIS SITE.

DeltaEmil
2010-08-30, 01:13 PM
You then roll again to make him reconsider it, until he proposes something that is acceptable to you. You do this infinitely, locking down even mighty Pun-Pun.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-30, 01:17 PM
utter pwnage of the Diplomacy rules to make everything with an INT>3 your loving friend
No so fast. Anything with an intelligence score period is up for grabs.

I recently got 2nd place in an optimization contest with a Ranger/Animal Lord who could get wild empathy checks in the 50's by 15th level. Hundreds of fanatic warbred riding dogs and direwolves trained in the Teamwork (Massed Charge) Handle Animal skill. Any animal (or magical beast) he passed could automatically be added to the charge, because of his ability to 'push' the creature.

With all the wild empathy alterations out there I could probably grab practically anything else as well and add it to my growing wave of fur and hide.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-30, 02:42 PM
The DM who accept that a creature who wants to eradicate changes his mind only because of high Diplomacy should seriously reconsider being a DM. It's not because "it's in the rules, durrrrrh" that you should accept such nonsense.

Darth Vader: Luke, join me, and we will rule the galaxy as father and son.
Luke: Nah, let's say YOU join me and kick the Emperor's bony ass, okay?

*roll Diplomacy*

Darth Vader: Sounds reasonnable. Let's go to the Millenium Falcon see my new bestest buddies.

Seriously...

Zaydos
2010-08-30, 02:50 PM
The DM who accept that a creature who wants to eradicate changes his mind only because of high Diplomacy should seriously reconsider being a DM. It's not because "it's in the rules, durrrrrh" that you should accept such nonsense.

Darth Vader: Luke, join me, and we will rule the galaxy as father and son.
Luke: Nah, let's say YOU join me and kick the Emperor's bony ass, okay?

*roll Diplomacy*

Darth Vader: Sounds reasonnable. Let's go to the Millenium Falcon see my new bestest buddies.

Seriously...

I find it ironic you used Darth Vader since ultimately he did rather fall to a Diplomacy check from Luke. Okay one that made sense in context and probably had a circumstance bonus, but still it was ultimately a Diplomacy check that beat him and through him Palpatine. Actually Anakin became Darth Vader because of a Diplomacy check on Palpatine's part.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-30, 03:01 PM
I find it ironic you used Darth Vader since ultimately he did rather fall to a Diplomacy check from Luke. Okay one that made sense in context and probably had a circumstance bonus, but still it was ultimately a Diplomacy check that beat him and through him Palpatine. Actually Anakin became Darth Vader because of a Diplomacy check on Palpatine's part.

Indeed, my point was not clear.

Yes, there ARE good ways to make Diplomacy a wonderful tool for stories. But players -god bless them - have such fantastics tendencies to... how can I say... Defile? Obliterate? Spit on the story in order to win?... that I can't accept the Diplomacy skill as it is.

Zaydos
2010-08-30, 03:06 PM
Indeed, my point was not clear.

Yes, there ARE good ways to make Diplomacy a wonderful tool for stories. But players -god bless them - have such fantastics tendencies to... how can I say... Defile? Obliterate? Spit on the story in order to win?... that I can't accept the Diplomacy skill as it is.

Oh I agree with you, but had to point out that Darth Vader was not the best example. Palpatine himself would have worked better. You could easily take the scene where he is trying to convert Luke to the Dark Side (another example of Diplomacy in action, but this time on a PC) and then have Luke say, "Nah, why don't you join the Light side." Followed by rolling Diplomacy and would have had a better example.

Or better still use Sauron, Gollum, or the Green Goblin.

Devils_Advocate
2010-09-01, 12:30 AM
Beyond being horrifically imbalanced, a major issue with the Diplomacy skill in D&D 3.5 is that it's way too abstract. To illustrate why, imagine a rule for a PC to fight NPCs using a single d20 roll, with the fight lasting one minute and the NPCs taking damage based on the result of the check.

This always lasts exactly a minute, which is bizarrely specific for no apparent reason. The interaction is entirely one-way, with the player character affecting the non-player characters but not vice versa, which is as nonsensical as it is broken. Having multiple participants on your side helps your side, via Aid Another, but having multiple participants on their side doesn't benefit the NPCs, who are all affected the same way as if to underscore their entirely passive role in this engagement.

Potentially important, story-relevant details get skipped over entirely. Or else are mentioned but have no impact on the check, except maybe in the form of a small circumstance bonus or penalty. Or else are given a big impact in an entirely ad-hoc or at least house-ruled fashion, because the rules as written certainly don't give the details a meaningful impact.

Oh, and this rule exists alongside other, admittedly incomplete and imperfect, rules for actual back-and-forth interaction between characters, with the action broken up into much shorter increments of time, and with a wide array of possible choices and possible outcomes with a much higher level of detail.

I think that it would be immediately obvious to everyone that such Fight checks are terrible game design. That Diplomacy checks don't usually instantly and reflexively trigger that "What were they smoking?" response is sort of illustrative of the degree to which rules for social skills are, generally speaking, basically an afterthought.

It's not just Diplomacy, either. Check the Bluff and Sense Motive rules. Does an average human seeing through the believable lies of another average human half the time seem right to you? Trying to convince someone of an implausible truth isn't even covered.

Person_Man
2010-09-01, 09:19 AM
The DM who accept that a creature who wants to eradicate changes his mind only because of high Diplomacy should seriously reconsider being a DM. It's not because "it's in the rules, durrrrrh" that you should accept such nonsense.

Darth Vader: Luke, join me, and we will rule the galaxy as father and son.
Luke: Nah, let's say YOU join me and kick the Emperor's bony ass, okay?

*roll Diplomacy*

Darth Vader: Sounds reasonnable. Let's go to the Millenium Falcon see my new bestest buddies.

Seriously...

Maybe that's why Count Dooku used droids - you can't use Diplomacy on mindless constructs.


As a side note, does anyone here use the RAW Diplomacy rules? Would you continue to if your PCs played a Diplomancer?

dextercorvia
2010-09-01, 09:29 AM
Maybe that's why Count Dooku used droids - you can't use Diplomacy on mindless constructs.


As a side note, does anyone here use the RAW Diplomacy rules? Would you continue to if your PCs played a Diplomancer?

Before I really knew what a diplomancer was, I built a character using the standard rules. It frustrated me to no end when my (online) DM just told me that my diplomacy checks didn't work. He never let me know what his house rules were though, and I thought that sucked. I wasn't actually trying to break anything at the time. I just wanted a rogueish general figure a la Matrim from WoT.

Doug Lampert
2010-09-01, 11:28 AM
Before I really knew what a diplomancer was, I built a character using the standard rules. It frustrated me to no end when my (online) DM just told me that my diplomacy checks didn't work. He never let me know what his house rules were though, and I thought that sucked. I wasn't actually trying to break anything at the time. I just wanted a rogueish general figure a la Matrim from WoT.

This! This is why diplomacy is broken and needs to be fixed.

Not because I can break the game by a deliberate diplomancer build, but because if I say, "I want to play a bard, I guess I should be decent at diplomacy" and then try to use the rules (PHB I ONLY, no magic items at all, no splat book feats). Then I can break the game at level 2. BY ACCIDENT!

Seriously. Outside of combat I need a +20 diplomacy bonus to convert indiferent (aka almost everyone) to helpful. And a human or half elf (the two obvious choices for this character type) can get +20 at level 2 with nothing not in the PHB.

Helpful means something, from the SRD:
Attitude: Means: Possible Actions
Helpful: Will take risks to help you: Protect, back up, heal, aid

That's EVERYONE I MEET who doesn't already dislike me and that speaks any one of the 8 or so languages I speak. They will take risks to help me, they will protect me, back me up, heal me, and/or aid me.

By level 8, STILL BY ACCIDENT, I can easily be converting hostile to indiferent with a single standard action.

You need to fix that rule, and let your players know you've fixed it. Otherwise someone will break your game without meaning to.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-01, 11:40 AM
As a side note, does anyone here use the RAW Diplomacy rules? Would you continue to if your PCs played a Diplomancer?

I have used them, back when I ran the endless dungeon. Someone did run a diplomancer, and was doing pretty well, IIRC. Of course, there were reasonable numbers of undead and constructs, and I enforce that you must have a shared language and way of communicating in order to diplomance someone.

In a regular game...ehh. The Giant's rules are better. You *can* use normal ones, sorta, if everyone mostly ignores diplomacy, but the instant someone tries to get good it, it kinda falls apart.

Bayar
2010-09-01, 03:51 PM
My favorite is still the not-to-be-mentioned-plomancer.

The Spelunker ? What's wrong with a halfling that min-maxxes his Escape Artist check to do...extreme exploring ?