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Sir_Mopalot
2010-08-29, 09:54 PM
I've heard it said many times that the Weapons of Legacy book is a great idea bogged down by a mechanical system that is broken in some way. So my question for the Playground is whether any of you know of some fix for the system, or failing that, what exactly the problem is with it. Or maybe I'm suffering from randomly reading people who don't like it more than people who do.

Boci
2010-08-29, 09:56 PM
Generally removing the personal cost will make them useable. If you like the flavour of them, then keep some token cost like 2 skillpoints or 3 life points. Also just check the abilities, since there are some anomalies.
Although others prefer just ignoring all pregenned examples and just making your own.

Sir_Mopalot
2010-08-29, 10:16 PM
That makes sense. I figured it was something along the lines of that, maybe I can talk my DM into waiving the personal cost in exchange for increasing the price of the rituals or something.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-29, 11:15 PM
The rules in Weapons of Legacy are hideously poor design, IMO. For a much better way to do something along these lines, check out the Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds (scary to think that there's something "better" in BoED, but there it is).

Boci
2010-08-29, 11:19 PM
The rules in Weapons of Legacy are hideously poor design, IMO. For a much better way to do something along these lines, check out the Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds (scary to think that there's something "better" in BoED, but there it is).

Whats wrong with the weapon's of legacy once the personal costs are removed?

DragoonWraith
2010-08-29, 11:24 PM
I believe (though I haven't gone through them thoroughly) that they'd be a bit overpowered without the personal costs, which is kind of the problem.

Item Familiars have similar issues.

Mostly, what it comes down to is that with them in play, the DM is a jerk if he takes them away (because it unnecessarily gimps the character; in many cases rerolling is more effective than playing the crippled character), but then it's free power if they're considered inviolate. It's just terrible design.

And before someone complains about player whining and how a DM should never be called a jerk for doing something to a player character or whatever - be that as it may, it's still awful design to put the DM in that position.

Boci
2010-08-29, 11:35 PM
I believe (though I haven't gone through them thoroughly) that they'd be a bit overpowered without the personal costs, which is kind of the problem.

Well, looking at desert wind (which I believe is considered one of the more power pregenned weapon) you get:

Constant endure elements, CL: 5 burning hands 3/day, +2 enhancements to dex, quickdraw as a bonus feat and a +2 scimitar for 4,315gp, so probably underpriced.

Defensing and flaming burst quality on your scimitar, CL: 5 gust of wind 3/day, +4 enhancement to dex, CL: 10 fireball 1/day for 12,700gp. Still a bit underpriced.

+6 enhancements to dex, CL: 15 disingtegrate 1/day, weapon becomes +4 for 40,500gp, so overpriced.

So you need to tweak the prices a bit, but that shouldn't be too hard.

Sir_Mopalot
2010-08-29, 11:37 PM
Hm. I checked out Ancestral Relic, and while it'll definitely be my back-up, I like the flavor in WoL that the weapon is separate and above even most magic weapons. I'm hesitant to even ask about dropping the requirements, my DM is a little on edge as far as me munchkin-ing, I'm already trying to get two separate homebrew classes (from this very forum) approved, and as the new character is to replace one that engaged in a little (very little, I swear) Divine meta-magic tom-foolery, I don't want to push him too far.

Serpentine
2010-08-29, 11:42 PM
In my game, we make the personal costs more... well, personal. They're more roleplayey and/or questish. For example, one character's rapier requires the owner to aid any Drow attempting to leave the Underdark and/or become "better people", should the opportunity arise (it's related to... Alystrae or something like that?). One of my character's items requires it to return home every now and then.
We're still working on what sort of "costs" work, but you get the idea.

Sir_Mopalot
2010-08-29, 11:45 PM
In my game, we make the personal costs more... well, personal. They're more roleplayey and/or questish. For example, one character's rapier requires the owner to aid any Drow attempting to leave the Underdark and/or become "better people", should the opportunity arise (it's related to... Alystrae or something like that?). One of my character's items requires it to return home every now and then.
We're still working on what sort of "costs" work, but you get the idea.

That sounds like a fantastic idea, and one that could work very well. Man, this character is going to be absolutely laden down with commitments (Paladin with an adopted son)

Crow
2010-08-29, 11:47 PM
In my game, we make the personal costs more... well, personal. They're more roleplayey and/or questish. For example, one character's rapier requires the owner to aid any Drow attempting to leave the Underdark and/or become "better people", should the opportunity arise (it's related to... Alystrae or something like that?). One of my character's items requires it to return home every now and then.
We're still working on what sort of "costs" work, but you get the idea.

Best Idea I've seen yet.

playswithfire
2010-08-29, 11:48 PM
I still think Weapons of Legacy could be made usable as is with just the inclusion of rules for succession of ownership since if it's destroyed or you renounce it, you regain all the personal costs. It's only if they're stolen that you're out of luck. Since these items would obviously be either contested or passed down, rules for succession really should have been included in the first place.

My thoughts on the subject.

Weapon of Legacy Succession
If you lose a weapon of legacy you have bonded with, you lose the weapon's abilities and regain the personal costs you have paid at a rate of one level per day (or hour if that seems too long and you don't think you can get it back quickly). Obviously, you can't use an ability that explicitly references wielding the weapon while you don't have it. You retain the legacy feats, however, unless the new wielder begins bonding with the weapon, such that if you regain the weapons you immediately repay all costs and regain all abilities for which you still have the appropriate feat. You lose a legacy feat every time the new wielder gains one. For example, if you had unlocked all three legacy feats, you would lose Greater Legacy when the new wielder learned Least Legacy and Lesser Legacy when he learns Lesser Legacy if you do not reclaim the weapon before that happens.

EDIT: plot costs also sound like a good idea

Serpentine
2010-08-29, 11:48 PM
We also allow/require Weapon of Legacy foundings and the like to be written into a character's backstory, so if you do that too, it wouldn't necessarily be an extra burden to your character, but rather complement/reinforce the commitments he already has. For example, one of the legacies you founded could have been related to how you adopted your son (with "adopt a child" being the legacy ritual), and the restriction being that you must care for the orphan as though it were your own. Somethin' like that.

(The one of my character, mentioned above, goes back into her grandfather's and grandmother's stories - she inherited it, and its legacy, from them.)

Also: whee, something I do has approval! :smallbiggrin:

Gralamin
2010-08-30, 12:32 AM
In my game, we make the personal costs more... well, personal. They're more roleplayey and/or questish. For example, one character's rapier requires the owner to aid any Drow attempting to leave the Underdark and/or become "better people", should the opportunity arise (it's related to... Alystrae or something like that?). One of my character's items requires it to return home every now and then.
We're still working on what sort of "costs" work, but you get the idea.

Neat Idea. At this point, I'd take a look at the Necromancers Games "Tome of Artifacts" Restrictions section for some ideas of costs. Some are more Roleplaying, some are more mechanical, and range between: Creatures of Type covert the item to character is always fatigued. While not a perfect fit, it might give some ideas to help jump start it.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 09:23 AM
I did pretty well with one by talking the DM into letting me pretty much just take HP penalties for it.

On a character whose main shtick was pretty much never getting hit.


But that GM really has no idea how to challenge a party anyway (his encounters vary between 'easy' and 'chose something of too high CR now it is mauling the squishy'), and we had way too much loot, so it didn't really matter!