Belkar's death: Place yer bets (Spoiler) [Archive]

faustin

2010-08-30, 02:01 PM

I've figured it out.

Belkar will be killed. In the arena.

By Roy.

Isn't that what this whole gladiator spiel is leading up to? And once killed, Belkar will be DEAD-dead. He's been kicked off the team once before. He earned his way back by faking character growth.

Now in the arena he's living down to his worst capabilities, robbing his fellow inmates in front of Roy. Belkar is becoming the stereotyped gladiator villain while Roy is the stereotyped hero.

How else could it end?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

¡Blasphemy! The Great and Powerful Sexy Shoeless God of War cannot die in such ignominious way!

And besides, Belkar is one of the most powerful asses in battles of OotS (not to mention his sharp tongue and sarcastic relief). Roy woldn´t kill Belkar unless absolutely necessary (and with a new character replacement in spot )

pendell

2010-08-30, 02:04 PM

And besides, Belkar is one of the most powerful asses in battles of OotS

Precisely. Who else in that arena can kill him?

Roy woldn´t kill Belkar unless absolutely necessary (and with a new character replacement in spot )

When it comes to the final pair, I have no doubt that when Belkar is given the choice between his life and Roy's, he'll attempt to kill Roy without blinking.

Roy will have no choice, I suspect. Or he may give another heroic speech like the one he gave to Xykon.

The Giant has foreshadowed Belkar's death repeatedly; his story purpose is nearly complete. Which means that when he is finally eliminated from the comic, I don't think anyone will miss him. Except Jenny the Bard in Greysky, possibly.

ETA: Foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0736.html). The bit about "schoolyard bullies steal your bread" and "one of you will give away your bread" has already come to pass .. though without the homoerotic bonding. So it's not an exact match. It still makes me wonder whether the climactic match and the final contestants haven't been foreshadowed here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Crisis21

2010-08-30, 02:13 PM

Except that our beloved Giant likes to subvert tropes and audience expectations. With such an obvious set-up for the death of Belkar occurring, I'm pretty certain Giant isn't going to kill him here.

Gift Jeraff

2010-08-30, 02:24 PM

I'm betting on no. It's still too early in the book (not even halfway through yet), in my opinion. All the other big, game-changing events/revelations (the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard, Roy's death, Belkar's hippie vision quest, Darth V) happened in the "third act", so to speak.

Who else in that arena can kill him?
I'm of the opinion that Enor could probably kill Belkar, but Belkar can most likely kill Gannji.

KenderWizard

2010-08-30, 02:28 PM

Except that our beloved Giant likes to subvert tropes and audience expectations. With such an obvious set-up for the death of Belkar occurring, I'm pretty certain Giant isn't going to kill him here.

Unless! It's an elaborate double bluff! But then, maybe the Giant will suspect we'll suspect a double bluff, and it's actually a triple bluff! :smalltongue:

faustin

2010-08-30, 02:48 PM

Zaydos

2010-08-30, 03:49 PM

While I have noticed the foreshadowing, and thought about it, I decided that it was too obvious and too soon. It could happen, and it could happen in an awesome way, but I doubt it will happen here. I don't doubt it enough to put money on it (there's a fair chance it is a double bluff), but I also don't see Roy killing Belkar in front of the stage, Roy would knock him out and spare him.

pendell

2010-08-30, 04:10 PM

You forget the whole fight will be in a colisseum with all the kingdom citizens (which mean probably Tarquin, Elan and Haley in the royal box). Do you really think they would not step on if Roy´s (or even Belkar´s) life is in mortal danger? Their comrades survival is more important than the whole Girard question.

Ah, but you forget Durkon is with them to ensure that the kingdom carries out its lawful sentence.

I am beginning to really dislike Durkon. For most of the strips I've appreciated his balance between lawfulness and doing what is right for the team. But this is the SECOND time he's gone with outsiders against the team's best interests, the first being when he surrendered to Miko.

I understand and appreciate that his loyalty to his god -- and therefore to Law -- transcends any earthly loyalties. But that doesn't mean I have to have him on my team. I don't like a sword that cuts my hand as often as the enemy's even if it's for reasons the sword thinks best.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

RandomTiger

2010-08-30, 04:29 PM

I think that in some weird twist of fate, Belkar will become a creature that doesn't breathe. When Durkon (possibly) tries to cure him, Belkar might refuse to be cured of his awesome new state. Or maybe they'll decide to punish him with the transformation.

That's my bet, anyhow.

The Pilgrim

2010-08-30, 04:45 PM

I think too that Belkar will be killed by Roy in the arena. If Roy hasn't killed him already, is because loyalty. But Belkar will trespass that line and Roy will finally come to killing him. This provides a perfectly explanable scenario on why he isn't resurrected back.

On the other hand, this may be too cliched for The Giant, yes. But remember, half the Forum foresee that Elan would find his Dad in the Western Continent, it seemed also a cliché, and happened. Gosh, the Giant even delivered him with an "Elan, I am your Father". And everyone on this forums cheered, no one complained for it being too cliché. (No one that matters, anyway)

The Giant has a knack for constructing masterful scenes with clichéd parts. So I fully belive in his ability to sort this Belkar's death thing up in a masterful way.

The Anarresti

2010-08-30, 04:53 PM

Ah, but you forget Durkon is with them to ensure that the kingdom carries out its lawful sentence.

I am beginning to really dislike Durkon. For most of the strips I've appreciated his balance between lawfulness and doing what is right for the team. But this is the SECOND time he's gone with outsiders against the team's best interests, the first being when he surrendered to Miko.

I understand and appreciate that his loyalty to his god -- and therefore to Law -- transcends any earthly loyalties. But that doesn't mean I have to have him on my team. I don't like a sword that cuts my hand as often as the enemy's even if it's for reasons the sword thinks best.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'd like to point out that when Durken surrendered to Miko, he was doing what he genuinely thought was best for his comrades. He also "subverted the truth" to protect Haley.

smuchmuch

2010-08-30, 05:02 PM

Ah, but you forget Durkon is with them to ensure that the kingdom carries out its lawful sentence.

*snip*

Brian P.

I think each time he believed to do what was the best for everyone, party included.
When Durkon refused to break his compagnon out of jail, I doubt he knew they would be sentenced to the arena (frankly, loytal evil or nor, sendin people to death and slavery for lack of papers is very harsh, not to say ridiculouly so, not something you could guess easily).
Would he have known I he probably would have reacted quite differently. Same thing goes with Miko to wich he probably wopuldn't have surendered if he hadn't strongly suspected she was a paladin (he could hardly know she was a psycho one).
You can accuse him of a certain lack of jugement but not of disloyalty to his team, I think.

As to comme back tot he original subject, I do not believe Belkar will die in this arena. it would lack a certain 'oooomph' quality if you see what( I mean.

Lord Bingo

2010-08-30, 05:19 PM

ETA: Foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0736.html). The bit about "schoolyard bullies steal your bread" and "one of you will give away your bread" has already come to pass .. though without the homoerotic bonding. So it's not an exact match. It still makes me wonder whether the climactic match and the final contestants haven't been foreshadowed here.

The Arena Master is iterating yet another cliché. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Belkar's death is foreshadowed are mere handful of pages before it occurs. I know what the Oracle said but please keep in mind that the arena master is not an Oracle -he is a cliché. If Belkar seizes to be I expect it to happen in a slightly more original way.
What I do expect of the arena is a "are you entertained" routine with a healthy amount of sarcasm:smallbiggrin:

Gullara

2010-08-30, 05:19 PM

The Giant has foreshadowed Belkar's death repeatedly; his story purpose is nearly complete. Which means that when he is finally eliminated from the comic, I don't think anyone will miss him. Except Jenny the Bard in Greysky, possibly.

I'd miss him, he's a sweet, wicked, awesome character.

pendell

2010-08-31, 08:43 AM

But Belkar will trespass that line and Roy will finally come to killing him. This provides a perfectly explanable scenario on why he isn't resurrected back.

Another explanation for not coming back is that Belkar's corpse gets defiled. It'd be karma-riffic, considering how he made hats out of Yikyik and Yukyuk as well as ripping off the head of his "friend" the ant-slaver.

Of course, it wouldn't be Roy that would do that, but it's a possibility.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

super dark33

2010-08-31, 09:14 AM

options!
1. Tarquin will execute him cuz he will insult Elan in front of him
2.Roy/Gladiator/Enor/Ganji will kill him in the arena
3. he will insult kilkil and will try to kill him
4.Scruffy will betrey him
5. in the end of the comic, Elan will kill him accidantly (somthing about the 'THE END' screen)

Ancalagon

2010-08-31, 09:36 AM

thubby

2010-08-31, 09:48 AM

i think belkar's death will be swift and with little-to-no lead-in, much like a death in a war movie, to make it jarring and more real.

Ancalagon

2010-08-31, 09:51 AM

i think belkar's death will be swift and with little-to-no lead-in, much like a death in a war movie, to make it jarring and more real.

You think war movies are real? ;)

The Succubus

2010-08-31, 10:24 AM

You think war movies are real? ;)

:smallcool:You think that's air you're breathing now?

pendell

2010-08-31, 10:29 AM

I don't think this will happen in this way - but I really like the theory.

Belkar is Roy's responsibility and he is the one who kept him on the team and probably in this world. It'd be a nice irony if, when it comes to the point where Belkar is unbearable (this was actually reached when he killed the oracle), that it will be Roy who has to take care of the appropiate closing.

As I said: I doubt the arena is going to be the place but it might become the place where it's clear that Belkar is now really more a liability than an asset. So IF Roy kills Belkar later in the story THIS arena plot will be where The Scene happens that will start this path.

It's surely one of the better theories that spin around Belkar's Final End.

Thinking about it ... I like this theory more and more. It may not happen in the Arena, but I'd wager piles of money that when Belkar dies, it'll be Roy who puts the sword in. For two reasons:

1) There aren't many other beings in OOTS verse who could do it. Xykon, Redcloak, the MITD, but very few others could kill Belkar in a standup fight. Even Vaarsuvius would be in trouble if Belkar got to melee range.

Of the non-divine beings in OOTS who can defeat Belkar in single combat, Roy is on the shortlist.

2) Roy accepted responsibility for Belkar. Which means that if Belkar goes off the leash, it's Roy's job in the eyes of Celestia -- literally in the eyes of gods and men -- to bring him to heel. Which means that when push comes to shove it's Roy's job to kill Belkar, no one else's.

I'll wager good money this will happen at the climax of the current book. Which may or may not be in the arena.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Inkling

2010-08-31, 11:06 AM

thubby

2010-08-31, 11:38 AM

You think war movies are real? ;)

*rolls eyes* of course not. it's just one thing war movies have managed to pin down rather well. deaths aren't grand heroic things, they're abrupt and without reason, especially in war. one minute he's there, the next he's all over the walls.

given belkar's record of wanton destruction and needless killing it would certainly be fitting.

Shale

2010-08-31, 11:48 AM

My money's still on giant killer death squid.

pendell

2010-08-31, 12:04 PM

You know, with all that bread he's eating, I'm getting the impression that he's going to die of constipation. Just saying.

Unless, of course, he's also drinking the body oil. That might negate the effect.

Doubtful. I strongly doubt that's white bread like they eat in the palace. So it's probably got lots of nutritious fiber to solve those problems.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Zevox

2010-08-31, 12:05 PM

i think belkar's death will be swift and with little-to-no lead-in, much like a death in a war movie, to make it jarring and more real.
I really doubt it. If Rich wanted it to be "jarring," he wouldn't have so thoroughly foreshadowed it so far in advance. We know he's going to die, the question is only how and when (and the latter we have enough hints to that we can safely bet it will be during this "book" of the story). That makes it pretty close to impossible to truly shock us with it.

Of course, I don't think Belkar will be dying in the arena either - it's too minor of a diversion from the main plot, and there's really no way for his death to be particularly climactic or impressive here, the way a main protagonist's well-foreshadowed death ought to be.

Zevox

Dogmantra

2010-08-31, 12:34 PM

The very last panel of the comic will be Belkar getting hit by a bus.

Miklus

2010-08-31, 12:35 PM

Kish

2010-08-31, 12:37 PM

Both fighter and ranger have d10 hit dice.

No. Look again.

Zevox

2010-08-31, 12:50 PM

What makes you think that Roy could kill Belkar in the arena? Sure, if Roy had his heavy armour and his +5 ancestral sword, he could beat Belkar no problem. But without propper armour his AC is going to be low while Belkars is unchanged. Belkar don't even wear armour, his DEX is probably maxed out, being a halfling and all.
Er, no. Even if Belkar wasn't wearing armor before (a rather silly assumption in its own right), his AC is still going to be extremely poor, especially given his level. There is no such thing as "maxed out" for a stat in D&D, and Halflings only get +2 to dex. Odds are his dex is good, but even if it was as high as he could possibly get it (and it probably isn't), it still wouldn't give him more +6 to AC, which on its own is pathetic at his level.

Without a greatsword, Roy can't use his weapon specialization.
Which is only +4 to damage, if he has the Greater version. Not a huge loss, given his strength score is certainly quite high to begin with - guaranteed to be above Belkar's, given Belkar has a racial penalty to strength.

So who got the most HP?
Roy. Fighters get d10, Rangers get only d8. Roy is the party meatshield, and believed to have a good con score (geekery thread pegs it at 16+), whereas we have no evidence that Belkar's con score is anything special. One or two levels of Ranger will not be sufficient for Belkar to catch Roy in this regard.

Roy also has Power Attack, which, given the low AC Belkar would have unarmored, he could use to its full potential in such a fight, for massive damage.

Let me reiterate though that I do not expect such a fight to occur, or if it does, I do not expect it to be where Belkar dies.

Zevox

MightyTim

2010-08-31, 12:59 PM

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I doubt Belkar's death will occur in the Arena. There is another way to be killed irreversibly, in OotS - and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet - by coming in direct contact with Snarl.

I think Belkar goes out with a bang, perhaps even in a (dare I say it?) heroic way. How better to give such a despicable comic-relief character an emotional ending than to have him die doing something genuinely heroic, just before his very existence is completely undone.

thubby

2010-08-31, 01:08 PM

in addition to power attack (which is absolutely devastating even if he only has a club in this situation) roy has something like 10 levels in fighter, which means he has access to a lot more of his firepower without his gear than belkar (who, thanks to his low wisdom, only brings the twf tree, favored enemy, and basic rage into fights).

Stmr5000

2010-08-31, 01:08 PM

Personally, I don't think that Belkar will be killed in this book at all, and if he is, it will be in the very, very end. I think that he'll bite it when they go to Kraagor's gate after screwing up with this one.

Crisis21

2010-08-31, 01:16 PM

I'm going to go on record right now as saying that Rich probably has something completely unexpected to throw at us in this regard. Just what, I don't know as I'm not yet done expecting things yet.

thubby

2010-08-31, 01:33 PM

I'm going to go on record right now as saying that Rich probably has something completely unexpected to throw at us in this regard. Just what, I don't know as I'm not yet done expecting things yet.

i think this is a given in any of these threads. seriously, has anyone actually called anything of significance in this comic?
still fun to speculate.

Zevox

2010-08-31, 01:34 PM

roy has something like 10 levels in fighter
10? He's a single-class fighter in a party whose average level at this point is around 14-15. If he were only level 10, he'd actually be in trouble if he fought Belkar.

which means he has access to a lot more of his firepower without his gear than belkar
Not really. Aside from power attack, the chief advantage of a Fighter with Roy's style of build is weapon-specific feats, which he won't have access to. What he has up on Belkar is simply that his stats are better (in terms of strength and con) and his build is better (Belkar's is quite bad, Roy's is pretty much the most basic form of optimized Fighter there is).

Zevox

thubby

2010-08-31, 01:47 PM

10? He's a single-class fighter in a party whose average level at this point is around 14-15. If he were only level 10, he'd actually be in trouble if he fought Belkar.

Not really. Aside from power attack, the chief advantage of a Fighter with Roy's style of build is weapon-specific feats, which he won't have access to. What he has up on Belkar is simply that his stats are better (in terms of strength and con) and his build is better (Belkar's is quite bad, Roy's is pretty much the most basic form of optimized Fighter there is).

Zevox
i picked a number out of the air, the giant makes a point of not stating them.

weapon specific feats are actually fairly weak, and even if he did take them all that's only, what, 3-4 feats depending on splats?

at level 14 a fighter has 8ftr+5regular+1human. so between his weapon and the cleave tree he's got 7 to go nuts with.

Crisis21

2010-08-31, 01:50 PM

weapon specific feats are actually fairly weak, and even if he did take them all that's only, what, 3-4 feats depending on splats?

Sorry, but I have to ask so that I can clear up my confusion. Is the above 'splats' a typo or some term I am unfamiliar with?

thubby

2010-08-31, 01:54 PM

Sorry, but I have to ask so that I can clear up my confusion. Is the above 'splats' a typo or some term I am unfamiliar with?

splat books. complete warrior and all those

Crisis21

2010-08-31, 01:57 PM

splat books. complete warrior and all those
*blinks* *googles* *finally understands*
I had never heard them referred to that way before.... Thanks for clearing that up.

Mordaenor

2010-08-31, 02:29 PM

Okay, so first off, reading this thread, I'm reminded of this particular scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html)

My money: Belkar chokes on a crust of bread. Or something equally anti-climactic. AFTER the Arena scenerio is over and done. Because THAT's what I would find funny.

Zevox

2010-08-31, 02:33 PM

i picked a number out of the air, the giant makes a point of not stating them.
Yet their level is pretty consistent within the comic, and very easy to track by noting what the highest level of spells the casters are capable of using is - and in fact we were able to pinpoint V's level at 14 when she expended all of her 6th and 7th level spell slots against Quarr and the Dragon.

at level 14 a fighter has 8ftr+5regular+1human. so between his weapon and the cleave tree he's got 7 to go nuts with.
Feats tend not to increase a melee fighter's "firepower" that much though, outside of weapon-specific ones and power attack. They instead get tricks like Improved Sunder, Improved Bullrush, Combat Expertise, etc which would be of minimal use here. It's casters where more feats tends to lead directly to more firepower, with things like metamagic at their disposal.

Zevox

thubby

2010-08-31, 02:39 PM

Feats tend not to increase a melee fighter's "firepower" that much though, outside of weapon-specific ones and power attack. They instead get tricks like Improved Sunder, Improved Bullrush, Combat Expertise, etc which would be of minimal use here. It's casters where more feats tends to lead directly to more firepower, with things like metamagic at their disposal.

Zevox

however little it is in the grand scheme, against someone else in the same situation that stuff wins. especially things like trip and disarm which favor larger people with beefier weapons.

to say nothing of the fighters with 300+ damage leaping charge attacks or other nonsense.

Zevox

2010-08-31, 03:19 PM

however little it is in the grand scheme, against someone else in the same situation that stuff wins. especially things like trip and disarm which favor larger people with beefier weapons.
Which are abilities which Roy has never displayed, and which do not fall under the category of "firepower" you mentioned earlier. You also seem to have suddenly forgotten that Roy will not have a "beefier weapon" here.

to say nothing of the fighters with 300+ damage leaping charge attacks or other nonsense.
Which is non-core, and thus rather ridiculous to assume Roy has.

Zevox

thubby

2010-08-31, 03:38 PM

Which are abilities which Roy has never displayed, and which do not fall under the category of "firepower" you mentioned earlier. You also seem to have suddenly forgotten that Roy will not have a "beefier weapon" here.
the feats have to be in something and i can't imagine roy is so massively gimped as to have taken all lightning reflex and toughness type feats.

but even without the feats, roy would have at least a +4 on trip and a +8 on disarm (2H gets a bonus on that, even if its just a club) probably more for his likely higher strength.

Which is non-core, and thus rather ridiculous to assume Roy has.

i was more making the point that feats can mean firepower, and a lot of it, whether or not roy has it, which is why i said "to say nothing of"

tcrudisi

2010-08-31, 03:57 PM

Zevox

2010-08-31, 04:03 PM

the feats have to be in something and i can't imagine roy is so massively gimped as to have taken all lightning reflex and toughness type feats.

but even without the feats, roy would have at least a +4 on trip and a +8 on disarm (2H gets a bonus on that, even if its just a club) probably more for his likely higher strength.
And without the "improved" feats he'll be eating AoOs to even attempt those, which can outright stop disarm attempts if it hits (and without armor, it almost surely will). And if Belkar isn't supplied with two weapons that's only +4 on disarm, since Belkar can hold his weapon two-handed as well if he's using only one. It may also be telling that Roy has never attempted such manuevers in the past, even when fighting foes it would be quite beneficial to use them against, like Nale and Miko.

Zevox

Souhiro

2010-09-01, 02:13 AM

When it comes to the final pair, I have no doubt that when Belkar is given the choice between his life and Roy's, he'll attempt to kill Roy without blinking.
I dont think so, Brian. Part of his fake/ perhaps-not-so-fake character development is that he cares for his companions. He don't have to really risk his life for them, but he won't kill em midnlessly.

It's kinda "We have infinity plus one diamonds, and our cleric can cast True Resurrect. Let's fight ourselves to the death, boys!"

Besides, Belkar's death has to be something related to Mr Scruffy, since it is the only living thing he REALLY cares.

Zevox

2010-09-01, 02:15 AM

I dont think so, Brian. Part of his fake/ perhaps-not-so-fake character development is that he cares for his companions. He don't have to really risk his life for them, but he won't kill em midnlessly.
Not really. He's supposed to be faking that, but he's not even faking it remotely well. Remember what he did to Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) back just before their trek into the desert?

Zevox

Ancalagon

2010-09-01, 04:21 AM

*rolls eyes* of course not. [...]

In regard to navigating the web in the future, you might want to read this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon

Zevox, what you mean is "He pretends to care for his companions". We are not talking about him caring... but pretending to care. That's an utterly different thing.
Belkar is now the very same, evil bastard he was all the time.

If anything, he got more dangerous due to his (pretended!) shift towards Neutral Evil. His evil surely got more "able" than it was before. So yes, I'm really with Brian here that it is a very likely theory Roy has to take resonsibility - because this is what "responsibility" means.
Certain things CAUSE you to take actions if you are responsible for something while other people can ignore the problem at hand.

Belkar realising he is better suited for Team Evil or at least *not* being on Team Good is long, long overdue - and that's the point where Roy has to step in.

sasafrazz

2010-09-01, 07:04 AM

Calling it right now. explosive diarrhea. :thog:

super dark33

2010-09-01, 07:48 AM

even after he dies, the giant will let us watch his life in the afterlife because people love him so much

Zevox

2010-09-01, 10:29 AM

Zevox, what you mean is "He pretends to care for his companions". We are not talking about him caring... but pretending to care. That's an utterly different thing.
Belkar is now the very same, evil bastard he was all the time.
But my point was that he's not doing even a remotely good job at that. His actions certainly don't give that impression, much as he wants them to, and his companions certainly don't buy it. It seems he doesn't even know how to pretend to care about them.

Zevox

TheRiov

2010-09-01, 10:55 AM

doesn't it make more sense for Belkar to be turned into a Vampire? He can still be a main character, he will cease to breathe, and we have a potential vampire with Malak already in the script?

Fargazer

2010-09-01, 11:11 AM

Actually, Belkar will get enough experience to level up and try a really cheesy multiclass. Thus, the velociraptor flesh-raker riding paladins will appear. And we all know how that will end.

Crisis21

2010-09-01, 11:19 AM

Calling it right now. explosive diarrhea. :thog:
*turns green at the thought*

Considering what the Mark of Justice did to Belkar, that makes a frightening (though very disgusting) amount of sense.

Ancalagon

2010-09-01, 11:20 AM

doesn't it make more sense for Belkar to be turned into a Vampire? He can still be a main character, he will cease to breathe, and we have a potential vampire with Malak already in the script?

All sorts of cheesy ways around the prophecy have been discussed in countless threads. There's two factions now as result: One that believe there might be some way around the prophecy and Belkar will somehow stay around after getting killed (as some undead, ghost, reborn, construct, whatever, ...) and that faction that thinks Belkar will simply and plainly die permanently. I doubt much can be said to anyone of one of the groups that has not yet been said.

Kish

2010-09-01, 11:36 AM

doesn't it make more sense for Belkar to be turned into a Vampire? He can still be a main character, he will cease to breathe,
...but would still be in the world; he's not going to be in the world.

MightyTim

2010-09-01, 11:40 AM

I doubt much can be said to anyone of one of the groups that has not yet been said.

Doesn't mean we can't keep arguing about it, though. :smalltongue:

Crisis21

2010-09-01, 11:46 AM

All sorts of cheesy ways around the prophecy have been discussed in countless threads. There's two factions now as result: One that believe there might be some way around the prophecy and Belkar will somehow stay around after getting killed (as some undead, ghost, reborn, construct, whatever, ...) and that faction that thinks Belkar will simply and plainly die permanently. I doubt much can be said to anyone of one of the groups that has not yet been said.

I'm going to call a very out-there theory now. Towards the end of the specified time limit, the entire Order gets sucked into the world-inside-the-rift where they finish their quest. Belkar does not die, but elects to never return to the world-outside-the-rift.

Kish

2010-09-01, 11:50 AM

I'm going to call a very out-there theory now. Towards the end of the specified time limit, the entire Order gets sucked into the world-inside-the-rift where they finish their quest. Belkar does not die, but elects to never return to the world-outside-the-rift.
Now you need to explain how he stops breathing. :smalltongue:

(We can take as given that the world inside the rift has neither cake nor taxes, as those are invented by sapients. Breathing is a little trickier.)

Ancalagon

2010-09-01, 11:52 AM

Doesn't mean we can't keep arguing about it, though. :smalltongue:

... which, given the above posts, is already happening. Belkar is going to die permanently. Just to throw in my position. ;)

TheBlackShadow

2010-09-01, 04:14 PM

Crisis21

2010-09-01, 05:14 PM

Now you need to explain how he stops breathing. :smalltongue:

(We can take as given that the world inside the rift has neither cake nor taxes, as those are invented by sapients. Breathing is a little trickier.)
Easy. The oracle cannot see events inside the rift, and so thinks that Belkar is dead.

Kish

2010-09-01, 05:25 PM

Easy. The oracle cannot see events inside the rift, and so thinks that Belkar is dead.
...And I would have thought what was left was the easy part, but you had to go to "the Oracle is wrong." Ah well.

Crisis21

2010-09-01, 05:33 PM

...And I would have thought what was left was the easy part, but you had to go to "the Oracle is wrong." Ah well.

Well, after 'Belkar gets turned into an undead or construct' and 'Belkar dies completely', 'The oracle was in some way wrong due to not being truly omniscient, just nearly omniscient' is the only option left.

Edit: Besides, who says that the world-inside-the-rift is a plane where breathing is necessary anyway?

MightyTim

2010-09-01, 05:49 PM

Well, after 'Belkar gets turned into an undead or construct' and 'Belkar dies completely', 'The oracle was in some way wrong due to not being truly omniscient, just nearly omniscient' is the only option left.

Edit: Besides, who says that the world-inside-the-rift is a plane where breathing is necessary anyway?

Do we have any evidence that the Oracle was ever outright wrong? We do know the Oracle likes to twist words, but if Belkar simply vanishes from the Oracle's purview of omniscience, but still possibly lives, I don't think the Oracle would have used the choice of words that it did.

Crisis21

2010-09-01, 05:53 PM

Do we have any evidence that the Oracle was ever outright wrong? We do know the Oracle likes to twist words, but if Belkar simply vanishes from the Oracle's purview of omniscience, but still possibly lives, I don't think the Oracle would have used the choice of words that it did.

We don't, but that's what we're left with in terms of possibilities from what I can deduce. I did say the theory was out-there.

Lord Loss

2010-09-01, 06:52 PM

A) He dies at the end of the arc

B) He dies in the arena

C) He becomes an undead in the snarl-world (I hope, but I know it's not ot be)

Zaydos

2010-09-01, 06:55 PM

A) He dies at the end of the arc

B) He dies in the arena

C) He becomes an undead in the snarl-world (I hope, but I know it's not ot be)

We can dream though. Belkar the Death Knight.

feltex

2010-09-01, 07:20 PM

My bet is that Belkar has eaten his last supper tonight and will draw his last breath before dinner-time tomorrow.

MightyTim

2010-09-01, 07:50 PM

So all in all, it sounds like people fall into a few categories:

1: Belkar dies in the Arena, probably being the bastard he is and tried to betray Roy or something, which explains why he doesn't just get resurrected.

2: Belkar meets his end from Snarl or some spell which prevents resurrection.

3. Belkar becomes some sort of intelligent undead, thus allowing him to continue to be an active character while technically be no longer breathing.

4:The Oracle is wrong, or Belkar meets some fate that the Oracle can't properly account for.

Other considerations: The Oracle likes to twist words, which is why a number of people (myself included) don't think he'll just die. However, when predicting Belkar's death, the Oracle didn't specifically intend to tell Roy (or so we assume), so it's possible, and makes sense that if the words just slipped, there isn't as much of a double meaning behind them.

Kish

2010-09-01, 09:13 PM

So all in all, it sounds like people fall into a few categories:

1: Belkar dies in the Arena, probably being the bastard he is and tried to betray Roy or something, which explains why he doesn't just get resurrected.

That needs an explanation? Roy's already made it clear he's glad at the prospect of Belkar dying. You think he means he's glad to have an excuse to have Durkon cast Resurrection again?

2: Belkar meets his end from Snarl or some spell which prevents resurrection.

3. Belkar becomes some sort of intelligent undead, thus allowing him to continue to be an active character while technically be no longer breathing.

4:The Oracle is wrong, or Belkar meets some fate that the Oracle can't properly account for.

3 is a subcategory of 4, since the Oracle said Belkar is not long for the world and an intelligent undead would still be in the world.

Also, you left out the category I (and I believe Ancalagon, as well as many others) fall in: Belkar is a goner. Details are currently unknown, but he's a goner.

Other considerations: The Oracle likes to twist words,

...for which, the evidence offered is generally a prophecy to which the actual answer turned out to be, "You will cause the death of the Oracle of the Sunken Valley by stabbing him with your daggers."

Zevox

2010-09-01, 09:25 PM

We do know the Oracle likes to twist words
No we don't. To the contrary, his prophecies have so far all been very direct and to the point. Heck, only Haley's question was even answered with a metaphor, and it still turned out to be very obvious to readers when it was occurring. He sometimes gives useless answers ("Where is Xykon?" "In his throne room."), but never ones that involve twisting words or "from a certain point of view" style outcomes.

Zevox

Souhiro

2010-09-02, 02:34 AM

I need to know... When said the oracle that Belkar won't be for long in the world? I saw the part of will draw his last breath ever, but the other part...

Besides, I really HATE the Oracle, I rejoiced when saw him meet the wrong side of belkar's daggers, and was very dissapointed when he "munchkined" his way to life.

You know, using omniscience to know how and when you will die, and contract a few clerics to raise you, again and again... if a PC tries to do this in one of my campaigns, the wrath of the GM would fall over that munchkin.

curtis

2010-09-02, 07:05 AM

I think Belkar goes out with a bang, perhaps even in a (dare I say it?) heroic way. How better to give such a despicable comic-relief character an emotional ending than to have him die doing something genuinely heroic, just before his very existence is completely undone.

I so, so want this to be true...

Shale

2010-09-02, 07:17 AM

I want him to die doing something heroic that he thinks has no chance of killing him. Because it's so very new-Belkar to take a no-risk "gamble" that makes him look like a good guy.

Zevox

2010-09-02, 08:18 AM

I need to know... When said the oracle that Belkar won't be for long in the world? I saw the part of will draw his last breath ever, but the other part...
You didn't pay terribly close attention, since it's in the same comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) as the "last breath ever" statement (panel 3). See also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) for more hints of Belkar's coming demise with other wording, panels 7 and 8.

You know, using omniscience to know how and when you will die, and contract a few clerics to raise you, again and again... if a PC tries to do this in one of my campaigns, the wrath of the GM would fall over that munchkin.
Er, if a PC has access to omniscience, then the GM has screwed something up royally. Forget resurrection, that'd break the game in so many other ways it wouldn't be funny.

Zevox

loveandwar21

2010-09-02, 11:14 AM

I think he will live out the rest of his days in the world in the rift. When the oracal said that he wasnt long for this world and that he souldnt fund his irk that could simply mean that he knows that balkar will be going to this alternat world and staying permanetly. Also when he says that he should cheris his next birthday it could simply mean that it would be his last in this would with his "friends".

Kish

2010-09-02, 11:29 AM

Still a slight breathing problem...

Grendus

2010-09-02, 09:07 PM

My money's on Belkar dying doing something vaguely heroic. Most webcomics go through character development in phases - first one, then another, than another. Belkar was the second most recent, after Varsuvius (and really, those were back to back so it hardly counts). It would be a total waste to kill him so soon after he finally "evolved".

loveandwar21

2010-09-02, 09:12 PM

{scrubbed}

Swordpriest

2010-09-02, 11:14 PM

Well, I'd give the little blighter a 99% chance of dying permanently shortly. However, I also give a high probability to his becoming undead, precisely because Roy is so smug and sure and confident that he won't be any trouble anymore in just a few weeks. Roy is too certain and it's too straightforward and easy for him to just die and vanish from the strip.

Basically, when characters in this comic are too sure about something, it's definitely going to come back and bite them in the posterior. Especially if the situation seems too pat, like this one does.

"I'm glad I'm still safe up here." *Squashed by falling masonry.*

"I'm getting too old for --" *Decapitated by Nale.*

"Belkar's absolutely sure to be out of our hair permanently in just 7 weeks."

Anyone else sensing the pattern here? :smallbiggrin:

tcrudisi

2010-09-02, 11:38 PM

Hmm...

I'm going to bet a hundred gold pieces that Belkar is killed by Vaarsuvius while trying to defend Girard's Gate from him/her, after V is possessed by the IFCC.

I'm also going to bet an extra twenty gold pieces that this act results either in V having a BSoD and/or giving him/her the strength to throw off the IFCC's possession.

I know that BSoD is Blue Screen of Death :smalltongue: - okay, seriously, what is BSoD? Also, side note, I assume "SoD" is Start of Darkness?

I'm quoting this because I really, really like the theory. I do not want to see Belkar die, but if he's going to go out, I really want it to be truly epic, like what you suggested.

Saphy

2010-09-02, 11:50 PM

While it is possible Belkar dies in the arena, I don't think it's probable. The arena would seem like an anticlimax I suppose, unless there was some huuuge twist that throws everyone off.

Sinfonian

2010-09-02, 11:51 PM

I know that BSoD is Blue Screen of Death :smalltongue: - okay, seriously, what is BSoD? Also, side note, I assume "SoD" is Start of Darkness?

I hate myself for doing this...
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicBSOD)

Stabber

2010-09-03, 09:38 AM

belkar will die......but not now.

loveandwar21

2010-09-03, 11:46 AM

you want epic heres epic

whill fighting the evil lich in the end balkar steps up to finish him. then a severly wounded redclock fires off a one in a million shot ande hits him in the head instantly killing him.

The Pilgrim

2010-09-03, 12:08 PM

Belkar's death must be involved with his recent character "developement".

Either he dies "heroically" for miscalculating the risk he was incurring on while pretending to be doing "sacrifices for the party".

Or

He fails at fooling his team mates (and we know that Roy hasn't been fooled at all, see #666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) or, more recently, #729 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0729.html)), and they kill him after Belkar goes too far again.

Might or might not happen at the Arena. But I'd bet it will happen before the end of this book.

loveandwar21

2010-09-03, 12:13 PM

Well it really gets epic when you take into consideration that they whould accullly have to survive the carnage of a massive battel in order to get the Lich, during this they must retain enouph HP to be able to kill Recclock the Lich and Any of his presonal guards. Not to even mention the monster in the shadows which I belive will only be reveiled in such an end moment.

The Pilgrim

2010-09-03, 12:17 PM

LightsOnNo1Home

2010-09-03, 12:19 PM

I would bet that whatever happens, no one will have accurately predicted the whys and wherefores. The Giant is just to good for that, but after all the foreshadowing, I fully expect that it will be Epic.

I also think that it will happen before the end of the current book. If he had 7 weeks left at the end of DStP, then he can't have much more than.. what 2?... maybe 3 weeks left?

I will say this.. whatever it is, I'm looking forward to it.

thubby

2010-09-03, 12:37 PM

I would bet that whatever happens, no one will have accurately predicted the whys and wherefores. The Giant is just to good for that, but after all the foreshadowing, I fully expect that it will be Epic.

i sometimes wonder if he reads these kinds of forums and deliberately avoids making people here right.
then i realize that's silly and paranoid, but still.

loveandwar21

2010-09-03, 12:46 PM

He tries not to read these forums because he feels that when he does he dilibretly tries to prove us wrong by changing what happpens.

I remember that i read this in the Q&A they had a while back

TheDarkblade

2010-09-03, 01:41 PM

Belkar never had a birthday cake yet (or a birthday that we know of) while the Orcale said that he was to savor his next birthday cake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html). Therefore Belkar will not die until that happens.

Now, if you think that is silly, it is even more silly that when the Orcale says "Not long for this world", which is a common saying that they are going to die, not necessarly that they aren't going to come back undead or that the body is going to somehow disappear, and could very well mean nothing. Also as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) he does like to twist words. To a point of it being almost a jedi truth.

'Belkar corpse was raised by . He ceased being the "sexy shoeless god of war" and became "the [i]undead sexy shoeless god of war". When that happened the evil halfling you knew as Belkar was destroyed. So what I told you was true..... From a certain point of view'

Besides I think he was saying not long for this world as the saying meaning they are dead, not that he can't become undead. Though I am not sure when or what will happen to him, unless you see him have a birthday cake don't put to much pressure on the 'not long for this world'. Though I will admit I am not expecting him to be raised or turned undead when he dies.

Personally I think he will die dramatically doing something that would make his alignment go from evil to neutral or good.

MightyTim

2010-09-03, 01:51 PM

TheDarkblade

2010-09-03, 01:59 PM

A question just occurred to me: Can the Oracle lie? We seem to take for a given that what the Oracle says will happen, one way or another, but is it possible that the Oracle can fake the omniscient future teller thing it does?

Edited to remove a quote I didn't intend to include.

I think he can't lie in his "omniscient future teller thing" as you put it but he can lie outside of it.

edit: Though I don't truly think he has any reason to lie outside of the state as
1. He is resurrected if killed
2. There has been nothing showing a motivation for him to lie
3. People forget what he says outside of the state anyway so there is no point to him trying to deceive people.

Kish

2010-09-03, 02:06 PM

Now, if you think that is silly, it is even more silly that when the Orcale says "Not long for this world", which is a common saying that they are going to die, not necessarly that they aren't going to come back undead or that the body is going to somehow disappear, and could very well mean nothing.

I think you left out part of that sentence.
Or possibly put in extraneous parts. Anyone who wants to ignore something the Oracle said is welcome to, they should just prepare themselves for disappointment (this sentence being aimed more at MightyTim than TheDarkblade, since TheDarkblade does think Belkar is going to die and stay dead).

Also as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) he does like to twist words. To a point of it being almost a jedi truth.

And none of that was actually the fulfillment of the prophecy he was talking about, remember? The actual fulfillment of that prophecy was Belkar causing the death of the Oracle by the most direct means possible.

Though I am not sure when or what will happen to him, unless you see him have a birthday cake don't put to much pressure on the 'not long for this world'.

If the Oracle had said, "...should savor his next birthday cake which he will eat on-panel," that would be a good analogy.

MightyTim

2010-09-03, 04:25 PM

I think you left out part of that sentence.
Or possibly put in extraneous parts. Anyone who wants to ignore something the Oracle said is welcome to, they should just prepare themselves for disappointment (this sentence being aimed more at MightyTim than TheDarkblade, since TheDarkblade does think Belkar is going to die and stay dead).

I admit I'm over analyzing the situation.I just find it fun to think of ways to possibly get around what we're taking for a fait accompli.

Zexion

2010-09-03, 04:35 PM

you want epic? here's epic

while fighting the evil lich at the end Belkar steps up to finish him. then a severely wounded redcloak fires off a one in a million shot ande hits him in the head, instantly killing him.
How is that epic? He doesn't accomplish anything noteworthy, and it's a pointless and ultimately plotless sacrifice. :smallconfused:

Bedinsis

2010-09-03, 05:04 PM

I believe Belkar will die at a moment when either he cares about his comrades or they care about him.

We don't know which calender the oracle follows, so I wouldn't be surprised if Roy one day notes that it's past New years eve, yet Belkar is alive, and he would therefore conclude that the oracle was wrong. Only for Belkar to die some pages later.

Detrinex

2010-09-03, 05:08 PM

Money's on Roy, Hinjo, Mr. Scruffy, O-Chul (after he learns of Belkar's bad behavior and guts him with his hands), or a kobold gets a lucky 20.

ALSO, about the earlier posts: A Team Evil charrie is too likely to deal the final blow. Maybe the MitD, actually. MitD might just knock Tsukiko out a window, hit Xykon into pieces, or do something like take on all the hobgoblins, while eating up Belkar with a nice batch of stew.

Poppy Appletree

2010-09-03, 09:19 PM

The partial list of Xykon's spells includes Soul Bind; Xykon can permanently off any of the PCs, and I figure Belkar will probably be going that way.

Swordpriest

2010-09-03, 11:47 PM

The partial list of Xykon's spells includes Soul Bind; Xykon can permanently off any of the PCs, and I figure Belkar will probably be going that way.

A very interesting point indeed. :smallsmile:

blunk

2010-09-04, 12:50 AM

1. Belkar bests Roy but refuses to kill him
2. Tarquin gets angry, hops the wall, kills a weakened Belkar himself
3. Empire of Blood vs. OOTS moral disjunction is resolved somehow (http://star.psy.ohio-state.edu/coglab/Miracle.html) (a million ways to do this)
4. OOTS decide that Belkar may have made it into a slightly better afterlife due to his sacrifice, and believe that he'd just screw it up if they brought him back
5. plot continues

It's a terribly straight progression, so I don't think it'll happen this way, but it would be serviceable.

Stabber

2010-09-04, 02:45 PM

I could see tarquin attempting to kill Belkar......Succeding, not so muhc.

super dark33

2010-09-08, 07:57 AM

i think it will be that way:
1.belkar is killed by high level armored gladiator

pendell

2010-09-08, 10:30 AM

The partial list of Xykon's spells includes Soul Bind; Xykon can permanently off any of the PCs, and I figure Belkar will probably be going that way.

Doesn't soul bind require a gem worth <a lot> as a material component? It may be that Xykon doesn't carry these in his pocket like a bag of marbles, ready to whip them out whenever any random adventurers crash his dungeon.

So unless Xykon has prepared for this battle beforehand, I don't see him using a soul bind gem on Belkar. He doesn't even care enough about them to remember their names. "Kill him and reanimate him as undead" would work just as well for less expense.

Hmm ... still, the fact that Xykon felt it necessary to cast Soul Bind would suggest that somewhere out there is a cleric capable of casting True Resurrection, wouldn't you say?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2010-09-08, 10:48 AM

Doesn't soul bind require a gem worth <a lot> as a material component? It may be that Xykon doesn't carry these in his pocket like a bag of marbles, ready to whip them out whenever any random adventurers crash his dungeon.

We know he carries one, and apparently can and does store multiple souls in it.

So unless Xykon has prepared for this battle beforehand, I don't see him using a soul bind gem on Belkar. He doesn't even care enough about them to remember their names. "Kill him and reanimate him as undead" would work just as well for less expense.

There I agree, though. He's unlikely to bother to Soul Bind a random halfling victim.

Hmm ... still, the fact that Xykon felt it necessary to cast Soul Bind would suggest that somewhere out there is a cleric capable of casting True Resurrection, wouldn't you say?

How would Xykon know, either way?

pendell

2010-09-08, 11:07 AM

How would Xykon know, either way?

He was over 90 years old when he converted to Lich, I should think he picked up some basic ranks in Knowledge <OOtsverse>. Plus, I think when you have a life as an adventurer or an aspiring villain, knowing what your options are when the heroes bust in your throne room and your minions have to carry what's left of your body out in a tiny jar would be important. Basic, fundamental research, part of Evil Overlord 101.

Plus, he's got Redcloak's brains to draw on.

Plus ... Xykon acts stupid, but he's smarter than he lets on. He was able to research an original Force Cage spell. He showed he could research in Serini's tower. And I'm sure you remember this line from SOD ...

Don't confuse not knowing with not caring, Redcloak

And there was also the time when

Redcloak threaten to smash his philactery, and Xykon said,
"Go ahead". "That was your big plan for controlling me , wasn't it?"

Xykon, you see, was deliberately faking ignorance earlier. Maybe he didn't know what a lich was when Redcloak proposed it, but if he was helearned in a hurry just what a philactery was and what it actually meant.

He allowed Redcloak to believe that Xykon was completely ignorant of what a philactery was and how it worked, or Redcloak might not have done it.

Then he dropped the other shoe ... a long time after it was too late for Redcloak to do anything about it.

Xykon may have average or below-average intelligence, but he's NOT stupid.

Xykon knew exactly what would happen and had already prepared accordingly, all without slipping so much as a clue to the other parties involved.

Xykon's strength is his charisma, not his intelligence. But I'd be shocked if his Int wasn't at least 10 and he didn't gain something on his long journey to epic-level sorcerer without picking up SOMETHING along the way besides spell levels.

I think he's a dumb sorcerer. I think he knows it. I think he exaggerates the dumb sorcerer schtick to such an extent that people underestimate him. And that surprises people like those above when they find that he's actually capable of some really cunning plans. Deliberately exaggerating his weakness, playing to the stereotype, is part of what has kept him alive functioning on this plane for as long as he has. That, and bringing as much force to bear as possible.

Plus, I think playing to the stereotype is his way of mocking the wizards who look down on him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2010-09-08, 11:11 AM

What does how much general knowledge someone does or doesn't have have to do with whether that person has one specific piece of knowledge--specifically, whether there are level 17+ clerics in the world? If Xykon has met one or heard of one, he knows there is one/was one then, regardless of whether he's a genius or an idiot. He can't know that there isn't one; basic logic tells him that it's impossible to prove a negative, and he's certainly smart enough to know that.

pendell

2010-09-08, 11:13 AM

I think he knows that it's possible, possibly even probable. Probable enough to go through the time and effort to make a soul bind spell.

Hmm .. just how many souls can a gem hold, by SRD?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Zevox

2010-09-08, 11:40 AM

Hmm .. just how many souls can a gem hold, by SRD?
As many as its value will allow. 1 hit dice per 1,000 gp of value. The one Xykon has must be a real whopper to hold two epic-level souls.

Zevox

JonestheSpy

2010-09-08, 12:35 PM

No way that Belkar's going to die in the Arena. He's got way too much to do yet.

My pet theory is that Belkar is going to end up sacrificing himself at some point to save Mr. Scruffy, the only entity he was real affection for. Probably not directly, like taking a crossbow bolt for the kitty, but realizing that if he doesn't take some action to prevent some big bad from happening - Snarl destroying the world, for example - then Mr. Scruffy will be among the victims, and he just can't allow that.

Pet, theory, get it? Ha, ha, I slay me...

Stabber

2010-09-08, 07:38 PM

I'm in utter agreement.

PsychoticPanda

2010-09-11, 08:05 AM

My thought on Belkar "dying"(or just not taking any breaths) will be him gathering so many halfling followers, he is promoted to a sexy shoeless god of war.
( like the dark one) :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Belkar will not die in the arena, you are forgetting the fact that he could beat almost anyone to death with a wooden stick.

Kish

2010-09-11, 10:35 AM

My thought on Belkar "dying"(or just not taking any breaths) will be him gathering so many halfling followers, he is promoted to a sexy shoeless god of war.

He'd better start soon, then. Right now, the total number of halflings who have any indication of a positive opinion of him is um 0, and the total number of other halflings he's indicated knowing and not wanting to brutally murder in their sleep is um also 0.

PsychoticPanda

2010-09-11, 05:55 PM

He'd better start soon, then. Right now, the total number of halflings who have any indication of a positive opinion of him is um 0, and the total number of other halflings he's indicated knowing and not wanting to brutally murder in their sleep is um also 0.

I admit it is stretching it, but Belkar's followers don't have to be halflings, Belkar could be so brutal that the whole army has him as there idol. You know a catchy phrase like :belkar:"Be Like Belka's":belkar:

Kish

2010-09-11, 05:58 PM

PsychoticPanda

2010-09-11, 07:49 PM

yeah your probably right.... I (sniff) just can't bear the thought of seeing him go. :frown:

The only person who worships him is the snarl.....:smallsmile:

Raging Gene Ray

2010-09-11, 09:46 PM

Very few heroes of legend really were as virtuous or perfect as their worshipers make them out to be. If a bard chronicles Belkar's adventures and popularizes him as some sort of Archetype of Inner Strength and Jovial Badassery, he could ascend...maybe Jenny, the bard he had a one-night stand with in Greysky, will immortalize him in song and saga.

Of course, she gets his name wrong and the legends cause some random commoner named Bekalar to ascend...or she forgets him during her next one night stand.

PsychoticPanda

2010-09-12, 08:07 AM

pendell

2010-09-13, 01:54 PM

Right now, the number of people in the OotS universe who have any positive feelings or admiration toward Belkar, who his companion describes as "a horrible little miscreant"? Not 0, but low. He's less likely to become a god than--for starters--any other member of the Order of the Stick.

Why does becoming a god mean being nice? Whatever mythology or religion you're thinking of, I don't think it works that way in the D&D universe. Does the name Lord Cyric ring a bell? He became a god in the Forgotten Realms by ... something very spoilery but very nasty. When they put out the job wanted ad for the god of death, murder, and assassination they weren't looking for Moonglow Nicebunny.

Hmm .. have to add, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) was just brought to my attention. It's been at least a couple of days since that strip occurred, so I believe the odds of Belkar dying in the Arena are >50%. There simply isn't a lot of time left to go anywhere else.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2010-09-13, 02:21 PM

Why does becoming a god mean being nice?
1) It doesn't. It does mean being revered. Do I have to repeat what you replied to with "or admiration" bolded?
2) There's no Ao in the OotS universe. The Dark One was empowered by the goblins waging a massive war on his behalf. Who would do more than say, "Good riddance" if Belkar did die? Jenny, maybe, if she still hasn't grasped how casually she was used. Now she just needs to find another million or so people to join her in starting a war...

pendell

2010-09-13, 03:44 PM

All he needs to do is wage mass slaughter in the Arena and he can be revered like Spartacus, which will be enough to get him his deity hood. Perhaps CE god of Gladiators.

I forget who it was who said 'Kill one and you're a murderer. Kill millions and you're the Father of your Country" or whatnot. But if murdering and butchering people is enough to get someone revered, Belkar should have no trouble.

Perhaps a thousand years from now people will remember this day in the Arena and mothers will threaten their children with Belkar if they're not good. He would be the nightmare that makes the world afraid of the dark, the monster on every bed, under every closet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Stabber

2010-09-15, 07:41 PM

thubby

2010-09-15, 10:52 PM

Blasphemy.....The Sexy Shoeless God of war is the greates Demi-god who has ever lived!

there is some truth to this. iirc the goblins during the battle for azure city were talking of a god of death who spews fire (belkar with skull guy)

Capt Spanner

2010-09-16, 08:02 AM

I don't think Belkar dies in the arena.

Has anyone read Seven Basic Plots (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tujDvUEpY10C&lpg=PP1&dq=seven%20basic%20plots&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q&f=false)? I'll be referring to page numbers, but you can follow up what I'm talking about from this link.

On p72, four types of adventuring party are described for The Quest archetype. The fourth one, and "most fully-differentiated form of relationship between the Quest hero [Roy, in our case] and his companions, the latter are each given distinct characteristics which complement each other, and add up to a 'whole'."

He then describes Watership Down, where each has their own strengths and weaknesses, and without their separate contributions combined could not succeed.

Would the party have been weaker without Belkar? Not hugely. Less firepower, sure, but no situation has come up which relies on Belkar to solve it. (The same could be argued for other members of the party: but each has provided their own essential role at some point: Haley as surrogate leader, Elan as a moral compass, Vaarsuvius rescuing O-Chul and shaking up Xykon, Durkon as the voice of reasonable compassion and Roy as leader - take any away and the party fails).

Belkar has yet to finish his plot arc. At some point the Order will face a challenge that can only be overcome with Belkar's contribution. (Assuming The Quest archetype is followed. Only at this point will the plot allow Belkar to die.

As for the time he has left, two or three weeks? Not long in real life, but aaages in comic time. With Xykon having set off to find Girard's gate, I'm sure that he'll find the party there in about that length of time.

pendell

2010-09-16, 08:27 AM

A solid argument, Captain Spanner, but I don't believe it's necessarily conclusive. Skillful authors can break or subvert those expectations, and Rich certainly possesses the necessary skill.

My approach is less from novels and more from video games, where a party member or an ally in Act 1 becomes an adversary in Act 2. Character development can do that to you ... when one character's overall philosophy is LG and the others is CE, it is inevitable that at some point their philosophies will bring them to separation. If their interests cannot be cleanly separated, it is inevitable that they will move from separation to conflict.

Unless either Belkar or Roy change their philosophical outlook on life and change alignments, their continued character development will draw them further and further apart. The separation moment has already occurred -- when Belkar killed the Oracle. That was rolled back first by the memory charm and then by Belkar's good behavior, but it's only a postponement of the inevitable break unless one or the other has a real change of heart.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

WWBelkarD

2010-09-16, 08:57 AM

Going back to the possibility of Xykon soul binding Belkar, can you imagine how cruel that would be to Lirian and Dorukan? Heck, Xykon might even do it just for that. Stuck with the psychopathic halfling for eternity... :belkar:

Witty Username

2010-09-18, 12:15 PM

Hypothesis, belkar will be killed by the order after it is reveled that he was thrown back in time becoming MitD.

Kish

2010-09-18, 01:47 PM

Aside from the fact that that would delete the creature in the darkness from existence, Belkar has absolutely nothing in common with him. Even to the point of their attitude toward food being, "I need only the most refined foods or I'll go into shock" vs. "Weeks-old cheeseburger? Dibs!"

teratorn

2010-09-18, 03:31 PM

Elan kills Belkar.

Hieronymus Rex

2010-09-18, 03:41 PM

I'm thinking Professor Plum in the Library with the Lead Pipe.

Failing that, the Roy v Belkar gladiator death theory does seem plausible, but because I'm rather fond of Belkar I hope it proves false.

Octopus Jack

2010-09-18, 04:01 PM

I'm thinking Professor Plum in the Library with the Lead Pipe.

It is obviously Colonel Mustard in the Kitchen with the Candlestick. :smallbiggrin:

blackjack217

2010-09-18, 09:26 PM

:miko: who else?

NegativeFifteen

2010-09-18, 09:43 PM

Im going to try and take a different spin on this. Belkar is one of the most beloved and funniest characters in the story, do you really think the giant is going to try and write him out so soon?

Kish

2010-09-18, 10:06 PM

Im going to try and take a different spin on this. Belkar is one of the most beloved and funniest characters in the story,

"Most beloved" is distinctly questionable. Unlike, say, Durkon, he inspires strong feelings for and against in many people.

Would he beat Elan in a popularity contest? Would he beat anyone in a popularity concept if people were allowed to cast positive, negative, or neutral votes (so that two people who are indifferent to Durkon count the same as one who loves and one who hates Belkar)? I don't know, and neither do you.

"Funniest" is distinctly subjective. You calling him that really only means you, personally, don't want Belkar to die.

do you really think the giant is going to try and write him out so soon?
I think Belkar will be dead and gone within seven weeks, yes. If that's what you mean by "so soon." I think he'll probably leave the arena alive.

Zevox

2010-09-18, 10:16 PM

Im going to try and take a different spin on this. Belkar is one of the most beloved and funniest characters in the story, do you really think the giant is going to try and write him out so soon?
Considering the many hints that Rich has dropped that Belkar will die, including in author commentary in the last book? Yes.

And honestly, "so soon?" Belkar's been around since strip 1, and we're nearly at 750 now. Nobody could possibly rationally complain about him being killed off too early, even if he died in the very next strip.

Zevox

Lord Bingo

2010-09-19, 05:15 PM

For me it won't be a question of Belkar dying too soon or too late. I think that when he goes, unless it is at the very end -which I doubt, it will be a great loss to the comic as a whole, as would the loss of any major -tagonist.:smallfrown:

NegativeFifteen

2010-09-19, 05:40 PM

Considering the many hints that Rich has dropped that Belkar will die, including in author commentary in the last book? Yes.

And honestly, "so soon?" Belkar's been around since strip 1, and we're nearly at 750 now. Nobody could possibly rationally complain about him being killed off too early, even if he died in the very next strip.

Zevox

Its clear Belkar is going to die, no one is debating that, but its going to be near the end of the story, considering how big a resource he is to the comic. And I use the term so soon to reference that not a lot of time has passed since the oracles prediction. The prediction said within 7 weeks, so why write him off so soon? I don't know the giant's writing style, so I may be wrong, but that would seem a little odd to me. I just think that its going to be in a way we dont expect. Seriously, its BELKAR. How would you write him off?

Kish

2010-09-19, 07:32 PM

Its clear Belkar is going to die, no one is debating that,

Lots of people are debating that actually.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-09-19, 07:35 PM

Zevox

2010-09-19, 10:28 PM

Its clear Belkar is going to die, no one is debating that,
As Kish noted, yes, there are some people arguing that, and your previous post certainly gave the impression that you were one of them.

but its going to be near the end of the story, considering how big a resource he is to the comic.
Nope, sorry to burst your bubble, but it'll be during this book. That author commentary quote from Don't Split the Party I mentioned in my previous post? It's from when Rich was giving hints at the events of the next book (the one we're currently in). It says:

Oh, and someone will die. But I bet you already knew that, right?
Hm, someone dying in this book, who is important enough to merit authorial foreshadowing in the commentary of the last one, and who we already knew was going to die. I can think of exactly one person fitting that bill.

It's also worth noting that another of his comments in that book was to say that Don't Split the Party contains the halfway point of the story. That makes it highly unlikely that Belkar's death will be near the end of the overall story, as it seems ridiculous to assume that this book alone will cover the majority of the remaining half of the story.

Zevox

JonestheSpy

2010-09-20, 12:36 AM

Hm, someone dying in this book, who is important enough to merit authorial foreshadowing in the commentary of the last one, and who we already knew was going to die. I can think of exactly one person fitting that bill.

Me too: Durkon.

We know that he doesn't get to go home alive (unless there's some real twisty logic going on to defy expectations), but we also know that the last gate is in the Dwarven homelands. Yeah, maybe the story will be resolved at this gate on the Western Continent- anyone want to place bets on that?

No, I think Belkar is going to be around to vex the rest of the Order for a long time, in strip numbers if not actual in-story days.

Cerlis

2010-09-22, 10:41 PM

I know its silly but i'm going to stick with my long-shot theory that the Oracle was wrong (or rather, an imperfect diety who is obviously not all powerful. See God killing monster :Snarl)

Prospekt

2010-09-23, 04:27 AM

I know the Oracle likes to play word games, but he did say "Belkar will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year" which is actually making me consider that maybe he could be "uncreated" by the Snarl. Hmm...

Zevox

2010-09-23, 10:54 AM

I know the Oracle likes to play word games
And how exactly do you "know" this? None of the Oracle's prophecies have been "word games" - they've all been remarkably straightforward, with only one even being a metaphor (Haley's), and that one an obvious metaphor at that.

Zevox

Gray Mage

2010-09-23, 11:03 AM

I know its silly but i'm going to stick with my long-shot theory that the Oracle was wrong (or rather, an imperfect diety who is obviously not all powerful. See God killing monster :Snarl)

I believe that Rich has stated that the oracle is 100% right.

Kish

2010-09-23, 11:37 AM

I believe that Rich has stated that the oracle is 100% right.
I feel obligated, with a heavy heart, to follow principle over my own desires here.

That is to say: I'm pretty sure that's Telephone Game again.

hamishspence

2010-09-23, 11:55 AM

From Don't Split the Party: Round Seven: Deus Elf Machina

V asks the kobold, "How will I achieve complete and total arcane power?" The Oracle responds, "By saying the right four words at the right time to the right being for all the wrong reasons." In this chapter, that prophesy is fulfilled- but not the way that readers expected.

It then goes on to explain that by containing all three possible Soul Splices, V had a complete set, by being able to use all of their spells at the same time, V had the sum total of their magic, and by having more total spell levels than any other spellcaster, V had the ultimate selection of arcane powers.

The question then becomes, did events come to pass as the Oracle predicted? Yes.

Minent

2010-09-23, 12:27 PM

I have to agree that Belkar will probably die, and in some heroic fashion, or because he really made someone mad.

However, the Oracle ONLY said that Belkar will not live to see his NEXT birthday. I bring your attention to Roy here, who was dead on his birthday, there for not living to see said birthday. So, say his birtday is the day after the fight, but the group has to go and get his body, which could be that it cannot be done during the day, then he would probably be revived the day after his birthday, therefore he would not live to see his next (being the one he was dead on) birthday, which would fulfill the Oracle's prophecy.

Just one way of looking at it.

Zevox

2010-09-23, 12:31 PM

However, the Oracle ONLY said that Belkar will not live to see his NEXT birthday.
...except that he also said that he "shouldn't bother funding his IRA," that he "isn't long for this world," and that he "will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year."

Seriously, how did you remember one of the Oracle's offhand comments on the matter, but not even remember the one he made while in official prophecy-giving mode :smallconfused: ?

Zevox

JonestheSpy

2010-09-23, 12:40 PM

And let's remember, there's nothing to stop undead, constructs, or whatever from investing in retirement funds. Y'gotta save up for that big fancy sepulcher, y'know!

Minent

2010-09-23, 12:48 PM

Yeah, I though he said something different, but went back and reviewed the strip. he did say that Belkar would die before the end of the year. But i don't know, he'll probably be some even blood-thirstier zombie running around. But, yeah thanks for pointing that out.

However, if he is undone, I wonder how literal the "undoing" process is. I mean are we talking as in just gone or as in poof, never existed.

hmm...

and as far as the offhand remark vs prophecy goes, I had just finished a 3 day read of the full series. and he did kill the oracle, so it seems that the oracle now has a fairly good streak running.

Cerlis

2010-09-23, 05:09 PM

I believe that Rich has stated that the oracle is 100% right.

Just because i think something is a certian way, doesnt mean i think I'm right.

Either way we have no way of knowing what will happen until it happens. And so i dont mind saying that I think the Oracle who gets his prophecies from a Deity who is no less or more flawed than your average peasant (see Thor for an example of just how flawed a Diety can be) may have made a prophecy involving circumstances changed by a change in motivation of the subject.

Every instance of the supposed Legitimate prophecies happened before Belkar decided to "evolve or Die". And it can be infired via other dieties and the story of the snarl thatTiamat is flawed.

As someone once said in regards to Elan, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" Well a working clock can be wrong all the time, if its fast, slow, has crooked hands. Ect.

And dont think i'm saying im right, cus I'm not saying that. I'm just saying its possible Belkar wont die and or that he wont die permanently. And we have no proof either way until the story ends. So all we are doing is brainstorming and hypothesising. So that is my idea, which has about as much legitimacy as any other paranoid theory on this site.

Bongos

2010-09-23, 05:35 PM

As someone once said in regards to Elan, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" Well a working clock can be wrong all the time, if its fast, slow, has crooked hands. Ect.

Actually, even a clock that is fast or slow will be right sometimes, it catches up or slows down, unless you are perhaps implying a variable speed clock that always avoids the correct time.

Now a working clock set wrong will always be wrong.

But Belkar, yeah, his time is surely running out.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/bb-1184copy.jpg

Doomboy911

2010-09-23, 05:46 PM

Small question the oracle said he'd die correct? Did the oracle say he'd stay dead? Why can't durkon bring him back?

Zevox

2010-09-23, 06:20 PM

Small question the oracle said he'd die correct? Did the oracle say he'd stay dead? Why can't durkon bring him back?
Most of the Oracle's comments indicating his death also indicate it is permanent. Most notably the "official prophecy mode" version: "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever."

Zevox

Kish

2010-09-23, 07:17 PM

Why can't durkon bring him back?
A better question would be, why would Durkon bring him back?

Cerlis

2010-09-23, 07:40 PM

Actually, even a clock that is fast or slow will be right sometimes, it catches up or slows down, unless you are perhaps implying a variable speed clock that always avoids the correct time.

Now a working clock set wrong will always be wrong.

But Belkar, yeah, his time is surely running out.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/bb-1184copy.jpg

ur right, i had in my mind instances of a Clock being set so many minutes ahead or behind, when "slow" or "fast" as regards to clocks results in an exponential time loss.

*shrug*

anyways, since i think my little theory is wrong I've also noted that while belkar is trying to turn a bitterleaf, that he has if not become more dangerous, definately more annoying and alienating himself from the party by trying to achieve his scewed ideas of morality. Last few strips everything he's done seems to have alienated himself from one member to the whole party. Before Azure city they had him as a homocidal companion. Then he completely lost Haley's respect, and is working on giving durkon and roy a reason to never see him again.

If my stupid, insane, unlikely theory is wrong, then i believe the idea that Belkar will live for much longer is wrong as well. I just hope for stories sake his death isnt in the arena

Stmr5000

2010-09-23, 08:14 PM

A better question would be, why would Durkon bring him back?

Because he's a sucker. After all, he healed him up for free that one time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html)

Bongos

2010-09-23, 08:43 PM

My guess is Belkar is going to kill himself, as I see that as being the least predictable. Dying while fighting something, well Belkar is always fighting something. Dying while doing something dangerous, dangerous is what Belkar does. Being killed by somebody, half the Ootsiverse must want to kill the little b*stard.

But suicide? From somebody as selfish and shallow as Belkar? To me at least that would be unexpected, and of course appropriately dark and climatic.

Of course he'd have a pop culture reference punchline while he offed himself.

Lord Bingo

2010-09-24, 06:17 PM

I think an actual suicide is out of the question. Why would he do that? If Belkar goes and gets himself killed I think it will be in the same way he almost let Miko kill him to push her over the edge.
In the end, when Belkar does die I hope it is the least remarkable way -by accident rather than intent. While I love the little bastard he does not deserve a glorified death. Unless his "change of heart" does turn out to be legitimate -which I doubt, he deserves to die in obscurity and be forgotten.

Bongos

2010-09-24, 07:45 PM

I think an actual suicide is out of the question. Why would he do that?
See, that is why it would be so surprising. Nobody would ever suspect it of him.

Kish

2010-09-24, 09:07 PM

See, that is why it would be so surprising. Nobody would ever suspect it of him.
No one would ever suspect he'll multiclass to paladin either, but that doesn't mean he's going to.

Doomboy911

2010-09-25, 09:00 AM

Can we get a link to the page with the actual prediction?

Ancalagon

2010-09-25, 09:39 AM

Because he's a sucker. After all, he healed him up for free that one time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html)

A) That is Belkar's estimation.
B) There's a difference between "Healing Belkar" and "Bringing Belkar Back".
C) A lot has happened since then. I doubt Durkon would bring such an Evil as Belkar is back to this world after it died.

Gray Mage

2010-09-25, 12:03 PM

A) That is Belkar's estimation.
B) There's a difference between "Healing Belkar" and "Bringing Belkar Back".
C) A lot has happened since then. I doubt Durkon would bring such an Evil as Belkar is back to this world after it died.

D) It's also completely not free.

Bongos

2010-09-25, 12:11 PM

No one would ever suspect he'll multiclass to paladin either, but that doesn't mean he's going to.

We don't have a prediction that Belkar is going to multi-class as a paladin.
We do have a prediction that he will be dying soon. Suicide is just as possible as any of the other ways mentioned and quite a bit less expected so it would be a surprising demise for Belkar.

Kish

2010-09-25, 12:19 PM

We don't have a prediction that Belkar is going to multi-class as a paladin.
We do have a prediction that he will be dying soon.

But not a prediction that he'll commit suicide, which would be the proper analogy for "prediction that he's going to multi-class as a paladin." If we had had a prediction, at the beginning of the comic, that Belkar would multiclass, the people who guessed "barbarian" would be right and the ones who guessed "paladin" would not.

Suicide is just as possible as any of the other ways mentioned and quite a bit less expected

That seems kind of oxymoronic.

so it would be a surprising demise for Belkar.
Again, "it would be surprising" does not mean it will happen.

Bongos

2010-09-25, 12:32 PM

But not a prediction that he'll commit suicide, which would be the proper analogy for "prediction that he's going to multi-class as a paladin." If we had had a prediction, at the beginning of the comic, that Belkar would multiclass, the people who guessed "barbarian" would be right and the ones who guessed "paladin" would not.
We have a prediction Belkar will be dying, and suicide is dying. Nothing in the Oracle's prediction excludes the possibility of Belkar taking his own life.

That seems kind of oxymoronic.Why?

Again, "it would be surprising" does not mean it will happen.
I'm not arguing that it's going to happen just because it's surprising. This is a thread placing bets on Belkar's death, and I'm placing it on suicide. I believe that would be an unexpected turn of events and within the realm of possibility, and possibly a very interesting plot twist.

Zevox

2010-09-25, 01:52 PM

Suicide is just as possible as any of the other ways mentioned
No it isn't. There isn't a plausible reason for him to commit suicide. There are plausible reasons why he could die in battle.

and quite a bit less expected so it would be a surprising demise for Belkar.
It is less expected and would be surprising because it makes no sense at all. That makes it unlikely to occur, given Rich does not have a history of doing things that make no sense just to surprise his readers.

Zevox

blackjack217

2010-09-25, 04:41 PM

my bet is that :thog: out barbarians blekar

Lord Bingo

2010-09-25, 05:05 PM

I place my two cents on Belkar dying in an accident -such as falling of/into something or having something big fall upon him:smallcool:

Bongos

2010-09-25, 05:29 PM

No it isn't. There isn't a plausible reason for him to commit suicide. There are plausible reasons why he could die in battle.

Zevox
Possible and plausible are two separate things. There isn't a plausible reason right now, but there might be in the future. Right now it makes no sense, of course Rich would have to create a context for such an event to happen.

I could see Belkar offing himself just to spite someone for example.

Doomboy911

2010-09-25, 06:57 PM

Let me just mess with all your heads with my bet.

Three nickels says he changes his last name.

Zevox

2010-09-25, 08:40 PM

Possible and plausible are two separate things. There isn't a plausible reason right now, but there might be in the future. Right now it makes no sense, of course Rich would have to create a context for such an event to happen.

I could see Belkar offing himself just to spite someone for example.
I couldn't. Belkar's personality does not lend itself to suicide - he's the type to go out fighting, killing or injuring as many other people as possible before he dies if his death becomes inevitable. He's also not the sort to end up in despair, but more the sort to end up angry or bored by anything that would cause despair in others.

No, there is no reason whatsoever I can think of where Belkar committing suicide would make sense. Especially given the Giant's actual character development for Belkar, as he mentions in commentary to Don't Split the Party, is his coming to care for Mr. Scruffy - caring for another living thing is the sort of thing that is more likely to make you want to hang around, not kill yourself. Him committing suicide would make that development completely pointless, and I don't see the Giant wasting Belkar's only character development like that.

Plus it'd be anti-climactic and disappointing as heck, and I don't think the Giant would kill Belkar in a way that'd disappoint his fans.

Let me just mess with all your heads with my bet.

Three nickels says he changes his last name.
Has been suggested before, has been shot down before. Changing his name doesn't explain or fit with any of the Oracle's statements about the matter. Especially not his last name, given the one statement that people could make a (poor) argument for such explaining is the "official prophecy mode" statement, and he only used Belkar's first name there, not his last.

Zevox

137beth

2010-09-25, 08:46 PM

Well, finally, y'all can stop saying Belkar will be killed in the arena!

Zevox

2010-09-25, 08:55 PM

Well, finally, y'all can stop saying Belkar will be killed in the arena!
:smallconfused: Why, exactly? The most recent comic has both Belkar and Roy being selected for participation in the arena. That's kind of a prerequisite for Belkar dying in the arena to happen.

Granted, I don't think he'll die there either, but still.

Zevox

Minent

2010-09-25, 09:54 PM

Wait, the oracle went on about savoring the icing on his birthday cake. Therefore, I think Belkar will be murdered by poisoned icing.
---Update--
I went back and looked, and he said he should savor his cake, so, still with the poison, only poisoned cake now.

Minent

2010-09-25, 10:12 PM

Theory, what like 3 or is it 4, Belkar kills Xykon, only to have a castle wall fall on him, as the castle implodes for no apparent reason!

squeekenator

2010-09-26, 12:27 AM

I think it's highly unlikely that Belkar is going to simply be removed from the comic. He's been there since the beginning, and has his fair share of rabid fans (myself included). No matter how epic or climactic his death may be, permanently killing him off just doesn't sit right with me. He may have a conflicting alignment, but that doesn't mean that he's not an important main character, and in fact the addition of someone who isn't just a standard "Let's go save the world because we're ADVENTURERS!" type makes the story so much more interesting. Besides, the Belkster still has plenty of potential. He's only just starting to get any sort of character development, making him actually care for a creature other than himself only to kill him off shortly afterwards seems rather pointless.

Now, assuming that Belkar isn't killed off permanently, which I highly doubt he will, because, while he may be rather two-dimensional, he's had his fair share of memorable lines and jokes and has just as much potential as the other characters for more, he needs to never breathe again. This means that he won't be resurrected at any point. While it's possible that the others will simply decide not to bring him back, that would hardly do justice to all the Belkar fans. It's a rather lame and uninspiring way to end the career of the sexiest, most shoeless god to have ever included War in his portfolio. Imagnie if, after Roy had died, the others decided that 5,000gp was too much for a fighter and just left him to rot. Besides, they need Belkar. While theoretically V would be just as good at crowd control, in practice he/she ends up doing other things in fights, and Belkar's screw-the-rules-I'm-a-halfling approach to the entire combat system results in him usually outdamaging the entire party on his own.

[Note: This is where the well thought-out argument ends and the wishlisting begins.]

No, there has to be a good reason that they can't resurrect him. The most obvious way for this to happen without the Belkster vanishing entirely would be for him to become an undead. Now, who do we know who makes undead? The bad guys. Obviously, Xykon and Redcloak at least have seen him in action and know that he's a member of the Order of the Stick. So, when he, for whatever reason, dies, if either of them should come across the body, they would immediately know that he is one of their arch-rivals, and it would be prudent to ensure that he can't rejoin his party members. This means either a Soul Trap or, hopefully, raising him as an undead monstrosity, freed from all rules of society and allowed to freely roam around slaughtering everything he finds...

...until he comes face to face with his former comrades, at which point he has a brief moment of weakness, knowing that they used to be his allies and being unsure about whether to kill them, then realises that he's Belkar and of course he's going to kill them. Except that, just as he's about to do so, he notices that they still have Mr Scruffy with them. He immediately decides that his favourite cat is much better than Xykon and rejoins the party, although he chooses not to be returned to life, possibly because whatever template he acquired was too badass to give up.

Cerlis

2010-09-26, 12:32 AM

Roy's dad isn't breathing and he still gets more than his fair share of airtime.

Cerlis

2010-09-26, 12:33 AM

but its not like there are any evil extraplanar creatures insterested in corrupting/using powerful adventuerer's to accomplish their goals

Lord Bingo

2010-09-26, 04:24 AM

Since the Oracle said that the Belkster should savour the icing on his next birthday cake -which I assume should be taken as a figure of speech- is it not fair to assume that Belkar won't be pushing up daisies until after his next birthday has been marked?

Kish

2010-09-26, 09:39 AM

Since the Oracle said that the Belkster should savour the icing on his next birthday cake

No, he didn't. Look again.

-which I assume should be taken as a figure of speech- is it not fair to assume that Belkar won't be pushing up daisies until after his next birthday has been marked?
You can assume whatever you please, but I won't be joining you there. The Oracle indicated Belkar would have only one more birthday when he first met Belkar, i.e., he wouldn't see two more years of life. Not that that birthday would be specifically called out in the comic.

137beth

2010-09-26, 09:49 AM

:smallconfused: Why, exactly? The most recent comic has both Belkar and Roy being selected for participation in the arena. That's kind of a prerequisite for Belkar dying in the arena to happen.

Granted, I don't think he'll die there either, but still.

Zevox

Uh, no:| They said Roy would be in the first fight, facing of against the dragon, not Belkar:|

Ancalagon

2010-09-26, 09:52 AM

Uh, no:| They said Roy would be in the first fight, facing of against the dragon, not Belkar:|

No, they did not.

We have no idea what "spot 1" or "spot 2" means. It could be it's the last fight or the #1 fighter does not have to go through the K.O.-rounds or...

Zevox

2010-09-26, 10:20 AM

Uh, no:| They said Roy would be in the first fight, facing of against the dragon, not Belkar:|
Yes, they put Roy and Enor in the first two slots, but why on earth do you assume that means they abandoned their intentions to use Belkar? They were talking about using him as their headliner in the middle of the strip - which he may still be, since they wouldn't necessarily put the headliner in the first fight, but might save him for later. He was quite clearly impressing them quite a bit, and we're given no indication that they had only one spot left in the schedule or anything.

Zevox

Minent

2010-09-26, 11:12 AM

Yeah, I think Roy's gonna be their headline act, but Belkar will be in the 5trillion to one event, as the one, from which Belkar will emerge victorious.

The Pilgrim

2010-09-26, 12:34 PM

Well, Belkar has managed to annoy Roy enough to force him stomp his ass with a wooden blade. So, one step closer to drive him to do the same with a metal one.

Doomboy911

2010-09-26, 12:34 PM

I need to see the actual page that is about him dying. Than we can get all pragmatic on the oracle.

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-26, 10:25 PM

is it not fair to assume that Belkar won't be pushing up daisies until after his next birthday has been marked?
What makes you think it hasn't already passed? None of the other characters' birthdays have been shown or even mentioned, save for the archon's comment that Roy had missed his while he was settling into the afterlife.

Yes, they put Roy and Enor in the first two slots, but why on earth do you assume that means they abandoned their intentions to use Belkar?
Because Roy took him out with a single blow. For all we know, there might only be two spots available. Belkar's "audition" was going great for a while, but the ending let him down hugely; there's nothing in the current strip that suggests he's going to be in the games at all.

(Which is not to say that he won't be, just that we shouldn't assume so.)

Zevox

2010-09-26, 10:44 PM

Because Roy took him out with a single blow.
Which is why Roy impressed them - Belkar was already impressing them, and he then took him out like that. Doesn't change the fact that Belkar impressed them too.

For all we know, there might only be two spots available.
And for all we know there may be hundreds. Fact is that there is no reason to assume there aren't enough spots for Belkar to compete.

Belkar's "audition" was going great for a while, but the ending let him down hugely; there's nothing in the current strip that suggests he's going to be in the games at all.
Except, you know, them saying he'd make a good headliner. As I said, getting beaten by Roy doesn't negate that Belkar impressed them too, it just means that Roy impressed them perhaps a bit more.

Certainly it's ludicrous to think that the strip indicates Belkar won't be fighting, as 137ben indicated he does.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-26, 10:54 PM

Which is why Roy impressed them - Belkar was already impressing them, and he then took him out like that. Doesn't change the fact that Belkar impressed them too.
Belkar did a few fancy moves and then was laid out hard by the first blow he took. The crowd want to see someone who puts up a fight, not someone who comes in with all the swagger and flair but gets his ass handed to him the minute anyone fights back. Which is presumably what the warden currently thinks of him.

And for all we know there may be hundreds. Fact is that there is no reason to assume there aren't enough spots for Belkar to compete.
When the warden arrived, Enor was the only one considered to be good enough. If there were hundreds of spots available, I expect they'd be a little less discerning.

Except, you know, them saying he'd make a good headliner. As I said, getting beaten by Roy doesn't negate that Belkar impressed them too, it just means that Roy impressed them perhaps a bit more.
The phrasing implies the warden has overruled what the guards thought. Roy gets top billing, Enor second. Absolutely no reason to just assume Belkar will be there at all; if the warden still considered him worthy of competing I'd expect him to at least get a mention. Something like, "Put the human in the first slot, and the blue dragon as number two. Might as well stick the halfling in there somewhere as well."

Certainly it's ludicrous to think that the strip indicates Belkar won't be fighting, as 137ben indicated he does.
"Ludicrous" is a bit strong. I tend to agree Belkar's plan just backfired on him and he won't get to fight at all.

Zevox

2010-09-26, 11:02 PM

Belkar did a few fancy moves and then was laid out hard by the first blow he took. The crowd want to see someone who puts up a fight, not someone who comes in with all the swagger and flair but gets his ass handed to him the minute anyone fights back. Which is presumably what the warden currently thinks of him.
A rather silly presumption to make, given the display Belkar was putting on and the total lack of any indication that they somehow think he's no longer impressive after Roy's blow.

When the warden arrived, Enor was the only one considered to be good enough. If there were hundreds of spots available, I expect they'd be a little less discerning.
Why assume that Enor was the only one they thought was worth it because they had some high standards due to having few spots? That seems an idea without support in the comic.

The phrasing implies the warden has overruled what the guards thought.
Er, no, it simply indicates that he's ordering Roy to be put in with Enor. Nothing more or less. And in case you missed it, the guards were agreeing that Roy's move there was very impressive in that same panel, and the Warden was the first to say Belkar was "pretty good" back in that panel, so no, there's no overriding going on regardless.

"Ludicrous" is a bit strong, as I tend to agree Belkar's plan just backfired on him and he won't get to fight at all.
Looks more to me like this strip was an explanation for why they both end up in the arena in spite of Roy trying to keep them out. Belkar because he wanted to be, Roy because he couldn't keep his cool with Belkar wailing on him.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-26, 11:15 PM

A rather silly presumption to make, given the display Belkar was putting on and the total lack of any indication that they somehow think he's no longer impressive after Roy's blow.
Well, that's the way I read it, and continue to do so despite your arguments.

Why assume that Enor was the only one they thought was worth it because they had some high standards due to having few spots? That seems an idea without support in the comic.
They said that Enor was definitely on tomorrow's schedule, but they're "not sure about anyone else". Doesn't sound like the words of someone who has to find a large number of competitors to me.

Er, no, it simply indicates that he's ordering Roy to be put in with Enor. Nothing more or less.
Not necessarily. It's entirely possible for fight number two to be Enor vs Challenge X, and fight number one Roy vs Challenge Y, immediately after. Nothing says they'll be in the arena together.

And in case you missed it, the guards were agreeing that Roy's move there was very impressive in that same panel, and the Warden was the first to say Belkar was "pretty good" back in that panel, so no, there's no overriding going on regardless.
"In case I missed it"? I can read just fine, cheers. There's nothing there at all that suggests anything more than everyone agreeing Belkar looked good until Roy stepped in.

The guards were the ones who wanted Belkar to headline. When the warden made his final decision, however, he disagreed.

Looks more to me like this strip was an explanation for why they both end up in the arena in spite of Roy trying to keep them out. Belkar because he wanted to be, Roy because he couldn't keep his cool with Belkar wailing on him.
As I said before, that's perfectly possible. It's not the way I'm leaning at the moment though.

Mando Knight

2010-09-26, 11:52 PM

Not necessarily. It's entirely possible for fight number two to be Enor vs Challenge X, and fight number one Roy vs Challenge Y, immediately after. Nothing says they'll be in the arena together.

In fact, if it's a death-elimination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html) tournament, they won't start out fighting each other. No one sics the top two seeds against each other in the first match, the tournament would only be downhill from there, and you could easily end up with some random schmuck winning it all if the best fighter exhausts himself killing the second-best fighter in the first round so he dies to a less-exhausted opponent in the second.

Zevox

2010-09-26, 11:54 PM

They said that Enor was definitely on tomorrow's schedule, but they're "not sure about anyone else". Doesn't sound like the words of someone who has to find a large number of competitors to me.
Just sounds to me like the words of someone who doesn't have any particularly promising candidates. Remember, they look for those who are either particularly good or particularly pathetic - if the batch they have at the moment falls in between those, he'd be hesitant about who to pick.

Not necessarily. It's entirely possible for fight number two to be Enor vs Challenge X, and fight number one Roy vs Challenge Y, immediately after. Nothing says they'll be in the arena together.
That's not what I meant, though I can see how you would misread it to mean that. Let me try again: the Warden's final statement means nothing more or less than that both Roy and Enor will be fighting.

There's nothing there at all that suggests anything more than everyone agreeing Belkar looked good until Roy stepped in.
And there's nothing there that suggests they think he no longer looks impressive after Roy's strike.

The guards were the ones who wanted Belkar to headline. When the warden made his final decision, however, he disagreed.
As I pointed out before, the Warden agreed that Belkar looked good, and the guards agreed that Roy's strike on Belkar was very impressive. They don't disagree at any point in there.

Zevox

Swordpriest

2010-09-26, 11:57 PM

A rather silly presumption to make, given the display Belkar was putting on and the total lack of any indication that they somehow think he's no longer impressive after Roy's blow.

I disagree with you also. At the start, they were saying that Enor was their only likely candidate -- presumably, they have a stable of favorites and are just skimming out the ones most likely to put up a good fight. At the start of the comic, Enor was the only one. Then Roy proved himself able to stand in the arena also, and they added him to the "short list" of those to appear in the games. The rest are too "mediocre," as the comic says in the second frame, to be scheduled to fight.

The "display" Belkar put on was that he could be annoying -- he got their attention, then Roy bashed him, and the trainer decided that Roy was also good enough to pull out of the pool of "newbies" and put in a fighting slot for the games. Belkar just came across as an irritating jackass who showed who had real fighting skill -- Roy.

I think it's a very silly presumption to think that Belkar impressed the trainer in the slightest -- all he was good for was the "cannon fodder" who revealed the hidden talents of Herr Greenhilt. Belkar's nothing to them after this -- he's just the second-rate twerp who was momentarily useful in showing who the real potential gladiator is.

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-27, 12:08 AM

As I pointed out before, the Warden agreed that Belkar looked good, and the guards agreed that Roy's strike on Belkar was very impressive. They don't disagree at any point in there.
The warden never agreed to anything with the guards, as such. It was the warden who first mentioned Belkar, by saying he was "pretty good", and THEN the guard comments that they might've found their headliner. The warden makes no further remark on the issue - but when he eventually makes his assessment, Belkar is not mentioned.

That's what swings it for me. He thought Belkar was pretty good, and changed his mind when he saw Roy take him out. As I've said several times now, I find the fact that the warden makes no mention of Belkar in his final analysis to be pretty damning. I really don't think I have anything more to add after that.

Zevox

2010-09-27, 01:08 AM

The warden never agreed to anything with the guards, as such.
I don't see how you can say that when they're all saying basically the same thing each time they speak - that Belkar and then Roy in turn are impressive.

That's what swings it for me. He thought Belkar was pretty good, and changed his mind when he saw Roy take him out. As I've said several times now, I find the fact that the warden makes no mention of Belkar in his final analysis to be pretty damning. I really don't think I have anything more to add after that.
And I can only disagree - there is no indication that the Warden changed his mind about Belkar, only that he immediately wanted Roy added to the roster after seeing him beat Belkar like that. And think about it for a second - if he didn't think much of Belkar's display, why would he be impressed by Roy beating him? Belkar impressing him is practically a prerequisite for Roy impressing him, since if he thought Belkar wasn't any good, Roy slapping him down wouldn't mean much.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-27, 01:20 AM

I don't see how you can say that when they're all saying basically the same thing each time they speak - that Belkar and then Roy in turn are impressive.
I say that because the warden never agreed that Belkar should be put in the arena. The only time he makes a comment about the competitors, Belkar is not mentioned. Therefore, no reason to assume Belkar will be entered.

And I can only disagree - there is no indication that the Warden changed his mind about Belkar, only that he immediately wanted Roy added to the roster after seeing him beat Belkar like that. And think about it for a second - if he didn't think much of Belkar's display, why would he be impressed by Roy beating him? Belkar impressing him is practically a prerequisite for Roy impressing him, since if he thought Belkar wasn't any good, Roy slapping him down wouldn't mean much
Again, all the warden ever said about Belkar was that he was "pretty good". Maybe he still thinks that. But maybe he's not looking for just "pretty good".

Since he never said Belkar would be in the games in the first place, and when he specifically mentions who he wants to fight and Belkar is not mentioned, I'd say the default assumption has to be that Belkar isn't going to be there.

You can keep repeating how impressed by Belkar you believe the warden to be, if you like... but until I see something more substantial than a single tidbit of lukewarm praise, I remain unmoved.

Innis Cabal

2010-09-27, 01:36 AM

And you keep basing your statements on assumption and things we don't even see in the story what so ever. So..until you post some sort of proof of what you way why should anyone take your opinion as any more or less correct as anyone else's.

He only said two characters were going to be going in. Are you telling me that only two people are going to be fighting in this? I mean, it's pure assumption on your part if you say yes. Where as it's -not- on anyone's part that says Belkar will be going in because this is a gladiator's competition and that's not how they run. Evidence exists to the contrary against your point and for the other.

Minent

2010-09-27, 01:47 AM

Also, the only thing that Belkar did to impress the guards was to engage several people at once. So if he does go into the arena, I see them sending wave after wave of their prisoners in to fight him, similar to the Zapp Branagin Stratagem.

Zevox

2010-09-27, 02:05 AM

Again, all the warden ever said about Belkar was that he was "pretty good". Maybe he still thinks that. But maybe he's not looking for just "pretty good".
And maybe he's only looking for terrible fighters and actually put Roy in because he thinks he sucks. I mean, he never said Roy seemed good, he just put him in without stating why! :smallsigh:

Yes, I honestly think your reasoning here is that silly. We know from the other prisoners that they take two types of people into the arena - those are good fighters and will give a good show of killing people, and those who are bad fighters and will give a good show of dying. Belkar definitely seems to have displayed to them that he is the former. Why would they then pass him up? Just because Roy is even better? That would only work if they had extremely limited number of slots left, which we have no reason to believe they do. Particularly given nobody else but Enor was impressing them before Belkar started trying, I cannot possibly understand how you would think he'd be passed up short of assuming they simply ran out of space, since it's not like he has much competition for whatever space they do have.

You can keep repeating how impressed by Belkar you believe the warden to be, if you like... but until I see something more substantial than a single tidbit of lukewarm praise, I remain unmoved.
I can say much the same - you can keep repeating how you don't think the Warden is going to bother putting him in, but until I see something more substantial than your assumptions about him not being impressed enough with him, I remain unmoved.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-27, 02:08 AM

I can say much the same - you can keep repeating how you don't think the Warden is going to bother putting him in, but until I see something more substantial than your assumptions about him not being impressed enough with him, I remain unmoved.
I'm not the one assuming things here, I'm just going by what we've directly seen. The warden is clearly the one with the authority to schedule the listings, and he never once said that he wants Belkar to fight.

nd you keep basing your statements on assumption and things we don't even see in the story what so ever. So..until you post some sort of proof of what you way why should anyone take your opinion as any more or less correct as anyone else's.

Are you telling me that only two people are going to be fighting in this?
Assuming this was directed at me: whuh? :smallconfused:

I've said repeatedly that we don't know the specifics of who will be fighting and when. All I've been trying to illustrate is that we cannot assume that Belkar will be, based on the comic so far. We know that Roy and Enor are going in and that is all we know. But at the same time there's good reason to suspect that Belkar will not be joining them.

Again, for clarity's sake: BELKAR MIGHT WELL END UP IN THE ARENA TOO. But there's nothing in the latest strip that confirms it, and I rather suspect it's going to be the opposite. I've stated my reasons over and over by this point, and it'd be just swell if I didn't have to do it again. :smallsigh:

Zevox

2010-09-27, 02:20 AM

I'm not the one assuming things here, I'm just going by what we've directly seen.
Funny, I could swear that was reversed.

The warden is clearly the one with the authority to schedule the listings, and he never once said that he wants Belkar to fight.
Yet he did say Belkar was pretty good, and we know what they do with prisoners who display themselves to be good fighters. Simple logic, 1+1=2. I thought I spelled that out clearly enough in my last post, but maybe this one will do the trick. An explanation would be required for them to reject Belkar at this point, not for them to include him.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2010-09-27, 02:21 AM

I thought I spelled that out clearly enough in my last post, but maybe this one will do the trick.
Nope. :smalltongue:

Swordpriest

2010-09-27, 03:25 AM

An explanation would be required for them to reject Belkar at this point, not for them to include him.

Zevox

I changed my mind a bit here -- personally, I think there's about a 50/50 chance that they'll include him. However, although I agree with you that they probably won't reject him, there's a possibility they might think he needs some more training or testing before they put him on -- so I'm going to posit that there's still a good chance that he won't be put on simultaneously with Roy.

Minent

2010-09-27, 10:37 AM

I don't think they would want to have Belkar in the major fights, especially since he got one-shotted by Roy, as I think that would take him out of the "good show fighting" category, and put him squarely in the "good show dying" category. However, if they take into consideration his fighting style, they will probably stick him into an onslaught event, and then bet on which wave can kill him.:smallsmile:

:belkar: vs. 1e5500 (His first fair fight.)
[and yes, that is a 1 with 5500 0's behind it.]

Actually, I would still have to bet on Belkar myself.

pendell

2010-09-27, 11:28 AM

Based on the latest strip, I'll wager that both Belkar and Roy will be in the arena, but fighting different opponents. Belkar demonstrated enough skill that I think he'll definitely be put in .. but not against Roy.

So this probably means that my theory is wrong. They won't ever fight each other. I was assuming there would be some kind of tournament system until there was only one champion left, but I guess it makes sense that they wouldn't do it that way. In a tournament system, the champion would be the sole survivor, and that makes it hard to keep the sport going. Killing off all the gladiators but one in every match means that every bout is fought between untrained amateurs, and where's the fun in that?

Hmm .. just what exactly did Roy do to Belkar? That looked to me like submission damage with an improvised weapon that sent Belkar to 0 hp in one shot. Is Belkar really that low on hit points or can Roy really hit for triple-digits damage with a wooden sword?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ancalagon

2010-09-27, 12:11 PM

I think there might be two different events:

One "free for all", where Gladiators slaughter Prinsoners. Belkar will start in that (probably as prisoner and then getting weapons and goes on killing everyone who sort of might be in his way at some unspecified in some possible future).

Roy, on the other hand, might fight in some tourney-thing.

JonestheSpy

2010-09-27, 12:22 PM

Hmm .. just what exactly did Roy do to Belkar? That looked to me like submission damage with an improvised weapon that sent Belkar to 0 hp in one shot. Is Belkar really that low on hit points or can Roy really hit for triple-digits damage with a wooden sword?

He hit him in the face really hard with a big stick. That will knock anybody down.

Really, as I said before, portraying combat in pure DnD terms really doesn't work in actual storytelling. If it's all about keeping track of hit point totals and nothing else, it's going to look a lot like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html).

tcrudisi

2010-09-27, 11:01 PM

Which is why Roy impressed them - Belkar was already impressing them, and he then took him out like that. Doesn't change the fact that Belkar impressed them too.

And for all we know there may be hundreds. Fact is that there is no reason to assume there aren't enough spots for Belkar to compete.

Certainly it's ludicrous to think that the strip indicates Belkar won't be fighting, as 137ben indicated he does.

I politely disagree. There is a reason to believe that Belkar won't compete - there won't be enough strips: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html

In 732 Durkon informs us that there will be no more than 30 strips before the end of this plotline. We just had 748, so we have had 16. That means we have no more than 14 strips before they leave. Since the Giant hasn't been doing too many double-strips lately, I am not so sure there will be enough strips left to have both Belkar and Roy fight in the arena.

Yes, my logic might be a bit faulty (but we do know that OotS likes to break the 4th wall), but it's certainly not "ludicrous" to think that the arena will consist of only Roy + one other.

Zevox

2010-09-27, 11:08 PM

I politely disagree.
As do I. Taking a joke literally like that is not an argument that I would consider credible.

Zevox

tcrudisi

2010-09-28, 07:43 AM

As do I. Taking a joke literally like that is not an argument that I would consider credible.

Zevox

Yes, Durkon was making a joke, but I find it just as credible as trying to gauge what a throw-away character meant. In fact, considering the OotS propensity to break the 4th wall, which he was doing in that joke, I actually consider that joke to be realistic in nature. I think when the Giant wrote it, he really did expect the current plot arc to take between 20-30 strips. Of course, he won't hold himself to that should he need more, but he certainly would not have wrote 30 if he knew he would need 500 or thought he only needed 10. No, he was giving us his best guess as to how long it would take: 20-30.

Doomboy911

2010-09-29, 05:21 PM

Kish

2010-09-29, 05:50 PM

Skull the Troll

2010-09-29, 05:53 PM

I still think that Belkar is going to go out doing something good. He is too beloved a character for his death to be meaningless/pointless. Just getting killed in the arena by Roy (even if Belkar is trying to kill Roy) is too empty to a main character death, even if it does fit Belkars personality.

Cerlis

2010-09-30, 08:54 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html for the first bit and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html for the actual prophecy. Might I make the suggestion that our oracle friend was lying. Or maybe Belkar will change his first name.

So there exists no prophecy that says that Belkar Bitterleaf, the halfing who is a member of the Order of the stick (currently) will die before the end of the year :P

technically

(unless Belkar is the only mortal with that name in the multiverse)

headmonkeyboy

2010-10-04, 11:15 PM

What Happens To Belkar:
Belkar Dies. Rolls Up New Character Sheet. Becomes a Paladin.

lord of pixies

2010-10-04, 11:19 PM

So there exists no prophecy that says that Belkar Bitterleaf, the halfing who is a member of the Order of the stick (currently) will die before the end of the year :P

technically

(unless Belkar is the only mortal with that name in the multiverse)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneSteveLimit

^aplied

Doomboy911

2010-10-09, 09:06 AM

I'm sure Belkar has mentioned with his cooking jokes before other members of his family shared his first and last name.

Minent

2010-10-10, 01:53 AM

I'm sure Belkar has mentioned with his cooking jokes before other members of his family shared his first and last name.

Good point, the oracle never said it was Belkar Bitterleaf that would die, just Belkar, that could be any Belkar.

But if someone does kill him then I think it would be V.

Minent

2010-10-10, 09:26 AM

Though seriously, Belkar turns the tide of a battle, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html, I dont think he's going quietly.

Minent

2010-10-10, 09:27 AM

What Happens To Belkar:
Belkar Dies. Rolls Up New Character Sheet. Becomes a Paladin.

except he hates palies..... He rolls as a barbarian.

Kish

2010-10-10, 11:38 AM

Good point, the oracle never said it was Belkar Bitterleaf that would die, just Belkar, that could be any Belkar.
Any Belkar who could also be described as "the halfling" and "your friend," if the Oracle hadn't been obvious about which Belkar he meant.

Keep dreaming.

Ender Wigin

2010-10-16, 12:45 AM

I have some ideas for how Belkar will die.

First off, its probibly going to be in the glatiator arc. It became kind of obious that he would get in a fight in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0736.html Hes gonna kill that bald guy, and then his friend is going to try to kill him. However, due to events unknown, hes gonna go fight Varstilis instead (the team will probibly go to bust them early and find him fighting roy in the tornement, since, as explained in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html , they will both be in the fight, and unless they get separated because of diffrent weight classes, they are most defenetly going to fight, at least, thats my opinion.)

The croud will be in an uproar once they interupt the fight. Guards will be sent in, prosioners will get lose, and only one of the Order will be able to fight Belkar. Its gonna be Varstilis. They have had a rivalry for a REALY long time and if anyones going to kill him, its gonna be her. Thats right, her.. Now you know my oppinion of her gender (mabe I should debate this on the thread about hergender). Oh, and they are probibly going to kill each other, but Varstilis will be raised by Dunkon.

After that, Belkar will probibly be raised from the dead by necromancy, then sent to attack our heros or sent to complete some other mission and run into them while doing it. In the end, Belkar will be raised up, only to die again straight away after Xlyon has been defeated, or leaves the Order permenetly and goes to wreak havoc in the world. (The only way for him to do this with no one stopping him is if Roy did not know he was reserected, otherwise, he will hunt him down due to him being his responsibility, as mentioned in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html )

Of corse, Roy could be the one to kill him to, but I'm realy hoping its Varstilis. :smallbiggrin:

Jallorn

2010-10-16, 01:21 AM

^Who is Varstilis?

Personally, I think it's within the realm of possibilities that Belkar might actually die trying to save Roy or something like that. I mean, yeah, he's been a bit more of a jerk lately, but it would be like the Giant to twist it like that, and I don't see it entirely outside the realm of possibilities that Belkar might try to help Roy. One possible interpretation of his character is that he's no longer as evil as he once was, that he's actually a solid Neutral, and that he has some degree of attachment to the group.

Bongos

2010-10-16, 03:08 PM

So there exists no prophecy that says that Belkar Bitterleaf, the halfing who is a member of the Order of the stick (currently) will die before the end of the year :P

technically

(unless Belkar is the only mortal with that name in the multiverse)

There doesn't need to be. The Oracle isn't answering a question, he's giving them a freebie. He's trying to antagonize them with the info.

Ender Wigin

2010-10-17, 12:53 AM

^Who is Varstilis?

...Thats a joke right? Mabe I just misspelled it... Vaarsuvius :vaarsuvius:

Anyway, I'm not sure that I actualy believe that all thats going to happen, because I just made it up on the spot. Those are, more or less what I would like to happen in the comic. More likely it will be Belkar killing Roy, or even saving him, because, as Jallorn said, Rich is twisted like that.

And now, ladioes and gentlmen, my list of the top ten people that I would like to bet on that would kill Belkar! (NOTE:Remember: this is just what I would like to happen, not what I think will REALY happen. I would also like to orginize a large pool for other people to vote on another top ten list for the top ten people that everyone would like to see Belkar get killed by. I would like to do that. I realy would. But...Theres this thing on sunday...And the week after that... Oh, whatever, I'm just lazy. :smallwink:)

10. Roy
9. Samwise Gamge
8. Varstilis
7. Mr. Scruffy
6. A hypothetical ospring between Gadreal and Inigo Montoya
5. Elan
4. Belkar himself
3. Banjo
2. The god of Slapstick
1. Miko

(NOTE: I changed my mind: I would like to see Miko kill Belkar instead of V.)

*Sigh...* :smallsigh: I wish Rich would do his comics more like magna and bring people back from the dead more often. I'll miss you, Miko.:frown:

Kish

2010-10-17, 06:10 AM

8. Varstilis
Why do you keep spelling Vaarsuvius' name Varstilis?

whitelaughter

2010-10-17, 08:13 AM

Keep going! I have a Bingo card that isn't quite filled out yet.

Oh, in that case, I'll throw the suggestion that Belkar takes the Feat that ups caster levels so that he meets the pre-reqs for Lich, and is transformed by Redcloak.

No, I don't believe it for a second, but I doubt it's the most absurd theory we've had.

PopcornMage

2010-10-17, 08:25 AM

The oracle stated that Belkar would draw his last breath.

Belkar is a character in an illustration.

If he becomes a REAL BOY then he'll never "draw" breath again.

Either that or he gives up his art skills after he realizes he always messes up by using solid lines.

Hope nobody else came up with this idea first.

Nimrod's Son

2010-10-17, 10:01 AM

Hope nobody else came up with this idea first.
Probably. But Rich Burlew certainly didn't, if it's any consolation.

Ender Wigin

2010-10-17, 08:54 PM

Why do you keep spelling Vaarsuvius' name Varstilis?

I don't know... Its not a commonly used name. What do I look like, an elf?:vaarsuvius:

The oracle stated that Belkar would draw his last breath.

Belkar is a character in an illustration.

If he becomes a REAL BOY then he'll never "draw" breath again.

Either that or he gives up his art skills after he realizes he always messes up by using solid lines.
And thats a realy good theory. Better than my theorys, even though I want them to be true soooooooooo much... I'm even getting my avatar changed for the occasion. Heres a hint about what its gonna be: :belkar: - :xykon:x:miko: = :xykon:x:belkar:.

PopcornMage

2010-10-17, 09:10 PM

Yes, Belkar will no longer draw breath, because he will be painting.

Gettles

2010-10-17, 09:59 PM

He will walk into a random room only to step directly in between Redcloak and (a revived, re-paladined, but never mentioned or hinted at before this moment) Miko. He eats a destruction and smite evil at the same time and is immediately killed.
Either Miko or Redcloak will ask if the other saw something for a moment and the other will say they didn't. The scene will then cut away and the outcome of the fight will never be known.
The boards will crash due to the fan reaction.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-10-17, 10:16 PM

I don't know... Its not a commonly used name. What do I look like, an elf?:vaarsuvius:

No...but it's still a name of one of the main characters in the comic. I wouldn't remember the name "Gandalf" except for the character attached to it.

Heres a hint about what its gonna be: :belkar: - :xykon:x:miko: = :xykon:x:belkar:.

So...without the quest to fight Xykon to focus his anger and the demands of a LG society to keep him in check, Belkar would be a destructive force exponentially (or is it geometrically?) more powerful than himself and Xykon combined?

I'm still not sure how you can communicate all that with your avvie.

Ender Wigin

2010-10-17, 11:15 PM

Actualy, I was going for Miko comming bck from the dead and killing Belkar, and later he would come bak as an undead creature, but your theory works too.

Kondziu

2010-10-18, 10:06 AM

Actualy, I was going for Miko comming bck from the dead and killing Belkar, and later he would come bak as an undead creature, but your theory works too.

* Miko would have to be resurrected for that. I guess now it'd could even have to be True Ressurect.
* I think Belkar would have a fair chance against a warrior without bonus feats.
* I see you did resolve the issue of "drawing last breath", but you may have missed "not long for this world".

So no, your theory doesn't work.

PopcornMage

2010-10-18, 06:46 PM

* I see you did resolve the issue of "drawing last breath", but you may have missed "not long for this world".

So no, your theory doesn't work.

The one is the Oracle's literal prophecy, the other is just conversation. Green bubble-white text is prophecy, standard black on white is talking.

That may be an important distinction.

Zevox

2010-10-18, 08:42 PM

The one is the Oracle's literal prophecy, the other is just conversation. Green bubble-white text is prophecy, standard black on white is talking.

That may be an important distinction.
It is not. The Oracle explicitly told us in his first appearance that the purpose of the memory charm over the Sunken Valley is to prevent people from remembering his offhand comments because he has a tendency to reveal things about the future in them. He even used Belkar's death as his example there, saying he "shouldn't bother funding his IRA" and "should savor his next birthday cake," remember?

Zevox

PopcornMage

2010-10-18, 08:49 PM

That he's trying to prevent non-prophecy words of his from having an impact does not prove that his words outside the prophecy are actually correct divinations of the future.

Certainly he knows and remembers things, but he is filtering them through his own limited perspective, and as such, may not be reliable compared to the actual prophecies.

You may believe otherwise, fair enough, but I'm not convinced.

Zevox

2010-10-18, 09:02 PM

That he's trying to prevent non-prophecy words of his from having an impact does not prove that his words outside the prophecy are actually correct divinations of the future.
Sure, if you choose to completely ignore what he said and make up your own excuse for why his statements might not be accurate. I'll go with the actual evidence on the matter myself, thanks.

Zevox

PopcornMage

2010-10-18, 09:12 PM

No, I'm just not taking what he said to mean that his words outside of the prophecy text are to be given the same weight.

His prophecies are established as being typically obfuscatory and twisted anyway, so I don't see it as implausible as you apparently do that they do have a different level of authority. He could just be misreading the future he thought he saw, and without the divine powers of his goddess, well, he's not giving out the literal truth, just his filtered impression of it. In other words, while the gods can give a view of the future, he, a mere mortal, isn't authorized to do so because he can mess it up by being wrong.

At least that's how I take it.