PDA

View Full Version : How do you kill a Paladin?



Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-30, 01:45 PM
In the Underdark game I'm DMing, the party paladin has become the most powerful member of the party and has wreaked bloody vengeance on every monster I throw at him. Because of this the party is still having fun but feels safe and unchallenged.
Do you know of any ways to terrorize a Paladin character without killing the entire party?

Zaydos
2010-08-30, 01:46 PM
Which edition? From previous threads you've started I'm assuming 4e. Not the most familiar with the 4e paladin (good AC, some nice damage output, and not sure what all else).

Yukitsu
2010-08-30, 01:47 PM
Unless the rest of your party is a samurai, a true namer and a commoner, a standard CR = to character level + a character review to make sure he's legit ought to do. Paladins are pretty darn weak, and if the problem is the paladin, you may want to consider buffing everyone else instead.

Greenish
2010-08-30, 01:51 PM
My first thought was to make him fall, but that'd be mean and ill-spirited.

Well, actually my first thought was "paladin too strong, wut?", but I'm not familiar with 4e.

Telonius
2010-08-30, 01:51 PM
What in particular about this Paladin is really powerful? As the others have said, Paladins are generally on the low end of the power spectrum. It's possible to get a particularly powerful combination (something like an ubercharger) but there are some pretty simple tactics you can use to neutralize this. What level is he, what feats does he have, and what sorts of magic items is he using?

EDIT: Oh yeah, what I just wrote is for 3.5. What's the edition here?

Caliphbubba
2010-08-30, 01:51 PM
what, specifically, about the paladin is causing you problems? what edition is this?

World Eater
2010-08-30, 01:54 PM
Just give everything +5 vs. Paladins.

Tharck
2010-08-30, 01:58 PM
Try more challenging neutral encounters based in the underdark for a session. Toss some treasure that the other PCs will find useful and will buff them up some. This will allow you to bring a heavier hammer in future encounters that can dent the paladin without smashing the rest of the PCs into bloody bits.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-30, 01:58 PM
To clear up any confusion, I'm talking about 4e.

Greenish
2010-08-30, 01:58 PM
Talking out of my derričre here, but 4e paladin is the tank, right? To challenge that, some untankable enemies would be in order. Flyers, sneakers, ambushes and the like are all a days job. Separating him from the others should allow you to play on his weaknesses, or just attack until his strength is no longer enough to easily overcome it.

Other option would be challenges unrelated on wreaking bloody vengeance on poor lil' monsters, such as a race against time to escape a creatively trapped maze, or trying to convince the law you're the good guys (preferably in a situation where "the law" has an army handy).

mootoall
2010-08-30, 02:00 PM
A really mean trick for a paladin? If the party really needs him, drop some sort of force effect around him that separates him from the rest of the party, then make him watch them struggle against an appropriately CR'd encounter. That should be suitable to make a paladin feel horrible and useless.

Lapak
2010-08-30, 02:02 PM
4e Paladin's role is Defender. The way that occurs to me to terrorize him is to harry the hell out of the rest of the group. Attacks from multiple directions at once, lots and lots of minions, terrain that makes keeping the enemy off his party's backs difficult. You don't have to threaten him at all to make him feel stressed; you just have to make his job difficult. IIRC, the Paladin is a fine single-target tank and weaker at holding multiple enemies at once. Give him a dozen wasps to swat instead of a single bruiser and he should sweat a bit.

tcrudisi
2010-08-30, 02:02 PM
If it's 4e and you are using the char builder, can you show us the printout? If it's 3.5, then as everyone else says: I'm shocked. Pally's aren't exactly notorious for having a high power level.

Josha, what does the scouter say about the paladin's power level?
It's over nine thousand!
WHHAAATTTT??!!!! What?! WHAT?!
Josha, what does the scouter say about the paladin's power level?
It's over 9,000! Over 9,000! Over 9,000! 9,000!

Tengu_temp
2010-08-30, 02:03 PM
How did a 4e paladin become that much more powerful than the rest of the party? If he focuses on defendery stuff, then his damage potential isn't that good. If he uses Divine Power options to improve his damage, then he should take a lot of beating from the monsters, and his damage still should be below a striker doing his job.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-30, 02:04 PM
Talking out of my derričre here, but 4e paladin is the tank, right? To challenge that, some untankable enemies would be in order. Flyers, sneakers, ambushes and the like are all a days job. Separating him from the others should allow you to play on his weaknesses, or just attack until his strength is no longer enough to easily overcome it.

Other option would be challenges unrelated on wreaking bloody vengeance on poor lil' monsters, such as a race against time to escape a creatively trapped maze, or trying to convince the law you're the good guys (preferably in a situation where "the law" has an army handy).
Would lots of lurkers work?



A really mean trick for a paladin? If the party really needs him, drop some sort of force effect around him that separates him from the rest of the party, then make him watch them struggle against an appropriately CR'd encounter. That should be suitable to make a paladin feel horrible and useless.
Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

Greenish
2010-08-30, 02:09 PM
Would lots of lurkers work?Assuming they can hit and retreat quick instead of trying to go toe to toe with the paladin, and there being sufficient numbers of them.

mootoall
2010-08-30, 02:11 PM
Perhaps I'll try something along those lines. Woo hoo, I'm participating!

Eldariel
2010-08-30, 02:12 PM
Would lots of lurkers work?

Really, I'd probably go all the way and try Defilers; he can't shoot under Dark Swarm and Plague is gonna eat through his health, and that of the party, much faster than it can be restored (meaning they'll mostly just waste resources trying to restore it) while he gets Ultra-Ling'd.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-30, 02:14 PM
I don't have a character sheet to readily show you but I can tell you this about him:

- Uses strength not charisma.
- Amazing damage output for his class.
- Above average hit points.
- Accurate attacks.
- Low-average defenses.
- Player is an optimizer.
- Lots of magic items.

AtwasAwamps
2010-08-30, 02:17 PM
I don't have a character sheet to readily show you but I can tell you this about him:

- Uses strength not charisma.
- Amazing damage output for his class.
- Above average hit points.
- Accurate attacks.
- Low-average defenses.
- Player is an optimizer.
- Lots of magic items.

Standard strength-based paladin, probably. That's certainly what it sounds like. They can actually be QUITE strong, since even optimizing damage paladins have inherent boosts to their ability to staying standing.

My suggestions are cruel. Ranged minions. Things that brush off his marks. Things that hit hard and retreat. Sap his endurance. While the rest of the party maintains a line of fire on the enemies, hurl minions at him like there's no tomorrow.

It'll get him a crowning moment of glory as he goes down, taking one for the team, and you get to drop him.

mootoall
2010-08-30, 02:18 PM
Well, I'm not sure if this is technically "legal" or "fair" by the rules, but would magic items be made regular items through the use of an AMF or dispell?

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 02:20 PM
Paladin of whom, might I ask?

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-30, 02:21 PM
Standard strength-based paladin, probably. That's certainly what it sounds like. They can actually be QUITE strong, since even optimizing damage paladins have inherent boosts to their ability to staying standing.

My suggestions are cruel. Ranged minions. Things that brush off his marks. Things that hit hard and retreat. Sap his endurance. While the rest of the party maintains a line of fire on the enemies, hurl minions at him like there's no tomorrow.

It'll get him a crowning moment of glory as he goes down, taking one for the team, and you get to drop him.

Why thank you, I'm working on the encounter right now.




Paladin of whom, might I ask?

The lawful-good dragon god guy, you know.

tcrudisi
2010-08-30, 02:26 PM
Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

If you are going to try something like that, make sure he has something to do. Don't just force him out of the combat and make him watch, give him a chance to participate. Yeah, he's stuck outside looking in, but he can manipulate something to drop stones from the ceiling on the bad guys in the other room. Or he can try to disable the trap that's holding him back. Or, while the party is having the fight and trying to stop the bad guys, he is the one that's on the other side able to find whatever it is the group is looking for -- and the groups success or failure rides on him.

He's optimized for combat, right? Oh boy - nothing will make a combat optimized character cry harder than having success or failure in the solo skill challenge ride solely on them.

Having said that, you never said whether this Paladin was the primary defender, a secondary defender, or somebody who considers themselves a striker first and foremost. That does make a difference in how you kill him.

And also, if the player is an optimizer, chances are he'll just create something new and more vicious - and in 4e there are worse things than an optimized Paladin.

Reis Tahlen
2010-08-30, 02:26 PM
Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.

Don't.

You'll be punishing the rest of the group just because they're not as powerful as the Paladin. Well, that's what they'll think when the only one alive is the ubber-Paladin behind the Wall of Force, that's it.

The basis of... everything... when you attack someone, is to attack his weak spots. Don't forget you play a ROLEPLAYING game; throwing monsters at your players is not the only tool at your disposal. You are playing D&D, not Diablo.

Traps, intrigue, threats, powerful political conspiracies, difficult choices between two lesser evils... Heck, the Paladin is perhaps the EASIEST character to obliterate with a Palpatiny-type of manipulation.

Oh, and above all, your job as a DM is to make sure he never learns you (tried to) destroy him because he was powerful; nothing frustrates more player than knowing that once you have a certain amount of power, DM will kill you.

Bayar
2010-08-30, 02:45 PM
The lawful-good dragon god guy, you know.

Bahamut the Platinum Dragon ?

Anyway, just send some flying enemies with some ranged weapons. That should work.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 02:46 PM
Look up Bahamut's stuff in the PHB. If he breaks any sort of code or rule, strip him of his paladinhood.

Bayar
2010-08-30, 02:53 PM
Look up Bahamut's stuff in the PHB. If he breaks any sort of code or rule, strip him of his paladinhood.

That is unnecesarily cruel and bad DMing. Falling should not occur just because the paladin gave 1 GP to a beggar that was actually CE or something trivial like that. Falling should occur after repeated offences to the paladin's code of conduct.

Edit @V: Not being familiar to 4e rules or fluff, but that sounds preety awesome. Seems that paladins in 4e are like some kind of Jedi :biggrin:

tcrudisi
2010-08-30, 02:54 PM
Look up Bahamut's stuff in the PHB. If he breaks any sort of code or rule, strip him of his paladinhood.

And do what? Make him lose all his class features and powers? No, there's no way to do that in 4e. Here's the relevant information about Paladins from the PHB:

Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

Stripping him of his Paladinhood is strictly not an option. Please do not go this route.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 02:59 PM
And do what? Make him lose all his class features and powers? No, there's no way to do that in 4e. Here's the relevant information about Paladins from the PHB:

Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

Stripping him of his Paladinhood is strictly not an option. Please do not go this route.

Sorry, my paladins' fluff is the same as it always has been. Your god/goddess giveth, and he/she can taketh away. Sometimes I (try very hard to) forget that WoTC bought TSR. If you use 'generic DnD' fluff, ignore my suggestion.

tcrudisi
2010-08-30, 03:03 PM
Sorry, my paladins' fluff is the same as it always has been. Your god/goddess giveth, and he/she can taketh away. Sometimes I (try very hard to) forget that WoTC bought TSR. If you use 'generic DnD' fluff, ignore my suggestion.

If the Paladin player was forewarned that he could fall before the game started, as I'm sure you do in your game DSmiles, that would be fine. But if he stepped into the game assuming the typical 4e Paladin, then this would be tantamount to DM fiat saying "your character is now useless." Nobody wants to be made impotent via a house-rule that was just sprung on them.

However, if you told the player beforehand that Paladin's can fall in 4e, well, that option is fair game.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 03:04 PM
If the Paladin player was forewarned that he could fall before the game started, as I'm sure you do in your game DSmiles, that would be fine. But if he stepped into the game assuming the typical 4e Paladin, then this would be tantamount to DM fiat saying "your character is now useless." Nobody wants to be made impotent via a house-rule that was just sprung on them.

However, if you told the player beforehand that Paladin's can fall in 4e, well, that option is fair game.

I have it written in my campaign book, which all players in my games are highly encouraged to read. They can ignore the listed changes at their own peril. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!

DeltaEmil
2010-08-30, 03:07 PM
Are the paladin's abilities in 4th edition so good that some people still want to make paladins fall and take away their powers so that they can laugh at the paladin's player?

I mean, it made perhaps somehow sense that paladins could fall, because paladins were kinda a lot better than fighters in 1st and 2nd edition, when dinosaurs and mammuts roamed the world, and cavemen were worshipping burning logs. But with third and fourth edition, paladins just aren't that uber, and them still having assinine restrictions for a bunch of rather low-key powers doesn't make sense anymore.

Tharck
2010-08-30, 03:12 PM
How do you kill a Paladin?

With kindness or course.

tcrudisi
2010-08-30, 03:12 PM
Are the paladin's abilities in 4th edition so good that some people still want to make paladins fall and take away their powers so that they can laugh at the paladin's player?

I mean, it made perhaps somehow sense that paladins could fall, because paladins were kinda a lot better than fighters in 1st and 2nd edition, when dinosaurs and mammuts roamed the world, and cavemen were worshipping burning logs. But with third and fourth edition, paladins just aren't that uber, and them still having assinine restrictions for a bunch of rather low-key powers doesn't make sense anymore.

Nah, in 4e every class is equal. Okay, maybe not exactly equal, but the difference between the strongest class and the weakest class is small, indeed. Taking away any classes powers would literally make them impotent and nigh-useless.

AtwasAwamps
2010-08-30, 03:15 PM
Are the paladin's abilities in 4th edition so good that some people still want to make paladins fall and take away their powers so that they can laugh at the paladin's player?

I mean, it made perhaps somehow sense that paladins could fall, because paladins were kinda a lot better than fighters in 1st and 2nd edition, when dinosaurs and mammuts roamed the world, and cavemen were worshipping burning logs. But with third and fourth edition, paladins just aren't that uber, and them still having assinine restrictions for a bunch of rather low-key powers doesn't make sense anymore.

...Which is why in 4e, they can't fall! I always liked that part of the fluff. I don't like the idea that the gods are just running around dealing with issues like "Oh man, Dorian killed a puppy". I like that its the mortals' responsibility to handle waywards. Just makes it better.

Don't do the whole "you fall" thing to try and beat him. If you want to put him in a bad situation in combat, wear him down with minions/reinforcements or keep him running after the other players to protect them. I know that the paladin in my game is nigh-impossible to kill on his own half the time, but because he IS a dragonborn paladin of bahamut, will put himself in awful situations for the sake of the party. Namely:

Paladin: "I charge through the horde of zombies and attack the giant zombie in the back that's hurling boulders at the party."
Rogue: "Dude, you realize that's going to trigger opportunity attacks out the rear-end?"
Paladin: "Dude, did you forget I'm a paladin? Now you go stab something while my character saves your character's rear-end."

Eorran
2010-08-30, 03:17 PM
As far as I recall, just about all of the Paladin's powers are melee, or range 5 at most. So artillery monsters and skirmishers are more threatening than brutes, controllers, or soldiers.

Using terrain or traps to split the party can make for a very interesting and memorable encounter - as long as it doesn't make anyone either unable to act at all, or unable to act effectively.

My suggestion would be an encounter that separates the Paladin slightly from the regular group, and includes a bunch of artillery monsters.
Example: the PCs must cross a lava field by hopping from island to island of cooled lava, which can break away and move. Above them, a bunch of hippogriff-riding foes pelt them with arrows. And there are monsters in the lava!
...
Now I need to work that into one of my own games.

Ihouji
2010-08-30, 04:02 PM
I'm going to have to go with the tons and tons of weaker monsters threatening the whole party thing. If he is the main defender it will drive him insane.

I play main or off defender most of the time when I'm not GMing and those situations stress me out more than anything else. Toss in something putting slow on him and/or the occasional immobilize or knock down and he will be freaking out.

The divide and force a skill check is also a decent idea, but taking away powers is just bad GMing.

Edit: Another idea would be divide the party so that everyone else is dealing with lackeys while the paladin is forced to square off against a single more powerful foe possibly even Barron Von Badass himself. The rest of the party could finish off the lackeys and swoop in just in time, or the poor pally may need to be avenged by the time they get there. Thats kind of up to you.

Evard
2010-08-30, 06:29 PM
Since the paladin is the strongest member of the group... It would make sense for monsters to not only want to destroy him but maybe even try to make him go to their side... Keep offering things to the player in exchange for favors... First few times nothing happens but when he takes something more valuable BOOOOM his diety smites the crap out of him... Ok maybe not.... Hmmm

Neutralize his lay on hands (aura that causes it to harm the target)
Neutralize his mark (with an anti-mark)

Have him fight never ending minions... Have a BBEG place a mark on him that as long as he has positive hp then 1 minion will generate in a square adjacent to him, if another living creature is in that square then it will be pushed if it is hit by a (+10 v.s fort/ref) attack (no damage). If the attack misses then the minion is pushed 1 square (repeat this process till the minion or whatever it pushes ends in an unoccupied square.

*edit*
Make the BBEG mark be (save ends) but the paladin has to save 8 times before the mark is completely gone :D 1 for each square adjacent :D

Shadowbane
2010-08-30, 08:39 PM
Just don't totally ruin his fun. Be careful of that. This board always goes overboard, in my humble opinion.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 08:39 PM
Is he ruining the party's fun with his power?

If not, no need to punish him.

Chrono22
2010-08-30, 08:42 PM
Have him die of old age, revered, respected, and surrounded by loved ones and family.

Aerodynamik
2010-08-30, 08:49 PM
Minions that explode. Lots of them.

If the minions surround the paladin and each of them gets an attack when they died, the paladin takes a whole bunch of attacks. If these attacks are vs. REF defense, then even better.

But don't try to kill the paladin; rather, build the encounters so that the paladin is challenged, as well as the rest of the party. It's more work, but also more work.

tcrudisi
2010-08-30, 10:36 PM
Minions that explode. Lots of them.

If the minions surround the paladin and each of them gets an attack when they died, the paladin takes a whole bunch of attacks. If these attacks are vs. REF defense, then even better.

But don't try to kill the paladin; rather, build the encounters so that the paladin is challenged, as well as the rest of the party. It's more work, but also more work.

Ya know, in one module I ran, there was a minion that upon death did a psychic backlash to any enemies adjacent to him. However, due to the fact that all the minions were basically insane, the backlash was increased for each other minion adjacent to the foe. It was only like 3 damage per foe adjacent, but it got kinda crazy the first time, since the Swordmage walked up and did a Swordburst on 5 of them...

15 damage for the first one dieing, 12 for the next, 9 for the next, 6 for the next, and 3 for the last. That's 45 damage -- I assume you are unconscious?

Oh man, the look on the players face was priceless. But hey - he had the fluff forewarning him. :smallbiggrin:

Zaydos
2010-08-30, 10:49 PM
Ya know, in one module I ran, there was a minion that upon death did a psychic backlash to any enemies adjacent to him. However, due to the fact that all the minions were basically insane, the backlash was increased for each other minion adjacent to the foe. It was only like 3 damage per foe adjacent, but it got kinda crazy the first time, since the Swordmage walked up and did a Swordburst on 5 of them...

15 damage for the first one dieing, 12 for the next, 9 for the next, 6 for the next, and 3 for the last. That's 45 damage -- I assume you are unconscious?

Oh man, the look on the players face was priceless. But hey - he had the fluff forewarning him. :smallbiggrin:

Makes me think about these minions I fought (as a swordmage) which when they died shot a laser (the DM initially rolled the damage at something like 4d6 and eventually put it at a flat number noticeably lower than the initial few rolls). We didn't have any warning of this so I blew up three with swordbust... thankfully 2 missed me (although it took a while to get the DM to realize what my Ref defense was) but the other one dealt more than 14 damage on its own. They became much less threatening when the DM actually fully statted them out and gave them a much lower attack damage.

That was one of the two battles in which I got bloodied (one was me soloing multiple battles). I was a lucky guy.

Edit: On topic, exploding minions are fun, and a nice way to damage/scare a defender that can take out multiple minions in one attack.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-08-30, 11:06 PM
Have him die of old age, revered, respected, and surrounded by loved ones and family.

On this note--how into RPing the Paladin Way is he? Setting up an opportunity for self-sacrifice might provide a very cool way for the player to switch characters.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-30, 11:08 PM
if you want to deal with him in a combat encounter then i would suggest using a combination of minions and artillery.

You use minions to bog him down whist the artillery blasts away from afar.

possibly use Mind Flayers for the Artillery as you're in the underdark.

Or even using a Bullette. They always wreak havoc ;)

Angelmaker
2010-08-31, 01:34 AM
In the Underdark game I'm DMing, the party paladin has become the most powerful member of the party and has wreaked bloody vengeance on every monster I throw at him. Because of this the party is still having fun but feels safe and unchallenged.
Do you know of any ways to terrorize a Paladin character without killing the entire party?

1) Why do you feel the need to punish the defender of the group for doing his job?

If you are simply throwing monsters versus the most armoured character in the group, your monsters are stupid as hell and don´t deserve to life ;).

Since we´re talking 4E here, going against the defender more often than not is a waste of time.

2) Why do you feel "a paladin" is the source of your problems?

Have you ever seen a good built warrior in action? Then you would truely see your game disrupted. Ok, this is a very generalized statement, but other defenders have the potential to be more damaging than the paladin will also being more nasty to evade ( halt on hit from OOC from the warrior, for example ).

There is, per se, no class based counters ( i.E. good versus paladins, but bad against warriors or battleminds ), only role based ( skirmishers most often good versus defenders, because of shifting abilities ). However, some monsters fail to do their job, even though their description says lurker oder skirmisher, so take a closer look at each one.

3) Why do you feel "THE paladin" is the source of the problems?

What has HE done to make the game easy life for your party? Has he singlehandedly slain your enemies, whilst the leader of the group didn´t have to heal him and the strikers and controllers went of to play a game of Lego?

Then your encounters are simply to easy.

If you have level appropiate encounters and still it´s easy, send level +1 or level +2 encounters at them. I do that all the time ( actually level +3 is the normal encounter level with me to challenge them a little ), since my party contains several tactically sound playing players. They have the tactics right, what to mark, what to focus first and stuff.

If you already have level +2 encounters for them and STILL the leader of the group didn´t have to trigger a healing surge for his party members, then YOU are playing it wrong. Check if you forgot some monster ability, if you should adjust your tactics ( i.e. ignore the defender for every non marked monster and head for the leader or even better - the controller ).

If you find, you have VERY challenging encounters, do nothing wrong and yet EVEN then your players are having an easy time whilst ONLY level equivalent equipped, then congratulations: You have an outstanding party. Game on!

So, tell us, what REALLY is the problem here?:smallconfused:

To sum it up: The best way to terrorize the Paladin ( the defender ) is by trying to deny him his abilites ( defending ) and attacking the rest of the party, as has already been adviced here. Then 1) your paladin has to work for his money, 2) the rest of the group will not feel safe any more.

The best wy to kill him is to kill the leader and the rest of then group first.

Dr.Epic
2010-08-31, 01:38 AM
Throw the moon at it! (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/mockingbird)

Dairun Cates
2010-08-31, 01:41 AM
Just don't totally ruin his fun. Be careful of that. This board always goes overboard, in my humble opinion.

That is a humble opinion as it tends to be a massive understatement. As people have said, play on his weaknesses a bit, but don't just out and out try to kill him. Just throw in things he's not optimized against. Throwing a zombie against the rogue is a challenge. Throwing a horde of 100 zombies is just pointlessly mean.

742
2010-08-31, 05:11 AM
Perhaps I'll try something along those lines.
dont do this. it makes the *player* feel useless unless you also have critters on the other side of the wall, and that would feel a bit contrived in most cases.

better question: are you throwing only mindless critters at your group?
i dont play fourth edition, but why the hell would the critters ever attack the tank over the squishies otherwise?